Claudia Harris | Why Women Are Falling Behind in AI

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0:44The next thing you know, you're in a cycling crew. Well, a community cycling group. The thing about Facebook, you might find more than what you're looking for. From a browse to a bike ride, this summer, find more on Facebook. Welcome to Jimmy's Jobs of the Future. Today we go back to our roots. After a series of big political guests including Keir Starmer and Peter Kyle, we return very much to somebody who has thought about the skills and jobs of the future for a long time. I've known Claudia Harris for almost a decade and she has always been thinking about the future of work. First as the Chief Executive of the Careers and Enterprise Company and now in charge of Makers, which has raised almost 10 million from the likes of Forward Capital and BGF to tackle the serious problem of what the future of skills look like in tomorrow's economy.

1:36I very much hope you enjoy listening to it. It was one of my favourite episodes to record this year. Make sure you subscribe so we can continue to get bigger and bigger guests.

1:52Claudia, welcome to Jimmy's Jobs for the Future. Thank you for having me. Now, if there's anyone more passionate about the future of work and the future of jobs than me, it may well be you. Because you partly came in to see me at number 10, and you've been in number 10 previously before as well, but were talking me all through the future of careers and so on. And I remember that as kind of like an important meeting and thinking, gosh, this is all really quite exciting and quite interesting. Little did I know at that point that it will come and be my sort of whole future career. But can you explain to us what your job is and what your company does?

2:23I can. So I run an organization called Makers. We are a tech talent and training platform for the transition. So for the last decade, that has been about helping people to reskill into tech and helping companies fill that enormous talent shortfall that we all know so well about, trying to basically find the people for the sort of tech revolution. But now it is a lot more about helping people to upskill in AI. And that's about taking people who might be experts in finance and making them AI first finance people, marketeers, AI first marketeers. And really what Makers is all about is helping people not just upskill a little bit, but really go through a career transition, the thing that I'm very passionate about, I'm sure we'll talk more about.

3:04And it's all rooted in this idea of helping people to become great learners. And so the way we do it is that the boot camps are really about recreating the world of work, self-led learning you know you solve your own problems but it means that by the time you actually go back into that job you feel confident that you can deal with any ambiguity or any problem that comes your way you haven't just learned the skill you've learned the ability to solve the problem as you go um so people you know can do the work really fast when they start in the job and they progress really fast um but it's all rooted as you say in the thing that i am super passionate about which is people finding the right work for them you know the work that they love and so what's What's the typical profile of someone that you get through?

3:43I imagine there's probably several, but what is it? Who are you targeting at? Yeah, well, so as I said, our heritage was about helping people from all walks of life transition into tech. And that would be within a company, maybe people coming from jobs in store or ops, moving into the tech team as industries have gone through the digital transformation, which means that they have reshaped into tech companies effectively and taken people on that journey with them, or from outside. So, I mean, the profiles are anything you can imagine. We have people who've worked in hospitality, people who've worked in shops, people who are teachers, people who are astrophysicists, people who are finance, any background.

4:20The thing that we're looking for is people who have a passion for technology and the grit to go through a career change and to keep learning, which is not easy. And it's a particular profile of person that's sort of up for doing that. So how do you test for whether they've got that grit then? so we do not look at people's background and that's a really important part of the process and it's critical because you know 83 % of computer science degrees are taken by men it's one of the reasons that the majority of people working in tech today are men 40 % of our grounds are women, half come from ethnic minority communities but what we do is that we give people about 10 days to learn some Python and it's about two or three hours of work and then at the end of that they take a test and it's a really good test of whether somebody's interested in learning, whether they'll go away, learn some stuff and take a test in it.

5:11And it actually screens out a lot of people along the way. And then they'll go through a process of interviews to test for whether they're really up for the career transition journey. We always say you don't have to be ready now. And if you don't pass, you know, we always give people feedback. We really believe in that. And loads of people will come back and do it in the future. So a lot of this is about not testing somebody's fundamental aptitude, but their desire to do it now. I think that's a lot of what it is. I think most people can do it. It's about whether or not you want to do it right now.

5:42Yeah, yeah. That reminds me, there's a bit of a name drop story here, but when I applied to do one of the executive courses at Stanford, I didn't get in first time around. A little-known Backbench MP was helping me with the application at the time called Rishi Sunak. um and uh but he was like when i saw him a couple of weeks after i've been rejected he was like oh they just do that all the time like it's just part of the thing like whether that is true or not i don't know but it but it definitely demonstrates grit if somebody's willing to come back to it again in you know six months a year or whatever and then talk me through what the what the business model is behind it in terms of do people then pay to do a course or yeah yeah so we've really changed that over the last 12 years so originally when so makers was set up and i'm not the founder it was set up by a man called evgeny shadnev and a couple of others um it was a b2c business so it essentially we sold we were europe's first boot camp yeah and people paid about 8 000 pounds and they came and did a 12-week boot camp and then we helped people get a job so it was paid for by the students now the majority of the work is paid for by the employers and the reason is that those people are in massive demand among employers employers get a huge benefit from these people coming into their organizations, these people will often get promoted twice as fast as grads because they come with this hunger, this interest in learning, this determination, and these amazing broad skills.

7:05Somebody who has run a large bar coming into your organization if you're a consultancy, this person knows how to handle people, this person can deal with complex operations. They have fantastic prior experience. So they're in hot demand from employers, and so now basically it's paid for by employers. and a lot of it is through the apprenticeship levy so we run a lot of apprenticeship programs and some of them are paid for us on a commercial basis if employers want to train people in a different way not using the levy okay and give us examples of some of the firms that you're working with well we so deloitte digital is a really long-term partner of ours and they took a punt on us really in the early days we've got them for almost 12 years now and put hundreds of people into Lloyd Digital as Consultants.

7:53We work with the UK government. We're doing a program for 2 ,000 apprentices, reskilling existing civil service and those from outside the civil service into tech. The TechTrack program, which was actually recently in Keir Starmer's plan for change announcement. We work with Google. We work with a bunch of the big tech companies. We've worked with the Financial Times for years. We've just kicked off a big program with Kraken, with Palantir. We're working with Nationwide on reskilling people internally. We work with some amazing companies. Jimmy's Jobs' dream sponsorship list, basically. And what are those employers saying that they want now?

8:42What are you seeing people demand more of in the future? Well, I'll quote what one of our clients says, the reason that they hire makers they're looking for curious problem solvers and I think that is a really good definition of what we help find and curate and train people in but also what will make people successful in the future in a world where the human tech stack is effectively evolving at an exponential level and I think I think people really underestimate this you know we had the industrial revolution 200 years ago but if you think about the rate of change of the nature of work in the last 50 10 5 2 years it's on it's what we've we've we've entered the world of magic and so you know the ability to keep up with that is kind of the critical skill now so you know our fundamental belief is the key skill that will make people successful in the future is the ability to learn what we call learning quotient.

9:43And that's what we really focus on as an organisation. And when you were saying earlier that one of the bars to kind of getting in is will people go away and practice a little bit of Python for two, three hours over the course of two weeks, I sat there and thought, how long is that going to be kind of relevant for in terms of one of the big things of AI, the big opportunities they're talking about is that it will almost kind of replace coding. But then I think to myself, as somebody who's not a coder, I still wouldn't know where to start with some of these projects and so on. So there's still going to be some importance in understanding the lexicon and understanding the parameters of coding and what it's capable of doing.

10:29How are you thinking about that? Yeah, well, I think coding, like lots of these jobs, is absolutely evolving. And in a sense, the human contribution is being elevated. And so there's definitely parts of the coding journey that are being compressed. But really, the job of software engineering and creating code is not focused solely in that process of coding. It's about the logic, the system, managing complexity, dealing with things that go wrong. And so I think you'll see a kind of evolution of the role as the technology enables you really just to do more. And I think, you know, you're seeing this in lots of different careers.

11:09and I'm sure we'll talk about the way that this is working. I think the question of what it means for the future of software engineering, I think there's this interesting paradox called the Jevons paradox, which basically says that as something becomes more abundant and more easy to produce, actually the expectations of it go up, and therefore the demand for people who can do it go up. I think we might just see the expectations on software go up, and therefore the demand for people who can build it go up, but the way they'll build it will be different. just like when excel came out you didn't see the end of accounting you just saw greater expectations of what accounting could do so i i think i think you'll see the world of um tech evolve in a really interesting way but i don't think that the skill set or the need for people who can understand as you say and manage the system and understand it properly is going to go away i always give the example of rather than excel of email replacing letters essentially but being like brilliant yeah it's a lot more emails than less and i'm sure we were like we all do so i do think it's interesting that being said in 2025 like it is amazing just like how much ai is kind of doing and i do you know the people that we work with are able to kind of take on more and more tasks because they're able to kind of use so many kind of new tools that are available um you know And it's, yeah, I'm one of the things I've learned about doing 200 episodes of this is no one really knows where the future is going with AI and what the jobs of the future will necessarily be.

12:43But you also, before Makers, were kind of at the heart of careers education as well. Can you talk to us about the careers in Enterprise Company? I can, but you dropped the opportunity to talk about where I thought AI was going to go. so can we do that briefly and then I'll go back because this is a topic close to my heart and I do think AI is going to be I mean I'm hardly an original here really just transformative in ways that are just almost impossible to imagine today and I do agree it's already transforming how people do work it's actually now a big part of our job as an organisation is reskilling people or upskilling people with AI and I think if you're not feeling like you now have superpowers then you're not using AI enough because it should really be transforming.

13:29And certainly it completely transforms how I work. And we now do a lot of work helping people to basically build these AI skills. But it's a constant companion already for people in everything that you do from research to analysis to communication to creation. With these custom GPTs, it should already understand your context really well and be able to do this in an even quicker way. And I think as you sort of look forward, you can quite quickly see us being orchestrators of agents. And then I think ultimately you're looking at a future where there's going to be real leapfrogs, because in a sense what we're doing right now is we're automating the tasks that we already do.

14:13But really the future of AI is to reimagine how you get the outcomes in a completely different way. It's to leapfrog lines and move to mobile technologies. And I think that's why you're going to get the, and I think that, again, will happen quite soon. I won't be, I won't put you on the spot and say how long, because I think that's unfair. But where are you using AI in your job? Any piece of work that I do, I will essentially pair program with AI. I'll have, you know, Gemini or ChatGPT Upper Plexity open, and I'll be just doing the work with it. So whether it's research or creating a piece of content, and I'll just be refining it in constant conversation with AI.

14:59And I'll be using the custom GPTs so that the AIs will have the kind of context about the thing that we're working on to accelerate that process. Obviously, conversations are transcribed by AI. I don't quite use AI to draft all my emails, but I probably should. but I would rarely start writing something from scratch now. I'd be kind of working on it with AI. But I think if you look at, I mean, if you look at in business now, you know, if you look at customer service, anything that looks like customer service now, the human interaction should be elevated. You know, any interaction that involves someone's case that needs to be understood and then there's an interaction and then that interaction is summarized back into the case, AI will do one in three, right?

15:48It will figure out what the situation is and it will summarize the interaction back in to the data set. So the human interaction can be the sole focus of the customer service person, plus improving that product, understanding from that interaction how we can make the product better. But there's a lot of things in business that look like customer service, not just customer service. Loads and loads of processes are basically customer service. And all of those could just be changed now. marketing, you know, creating content, scaling content across different platforms, testing different messages, tailoring messages for different audiences, could all be done by AI.

16:27Again, elevating marketeers to be the kind of content strategists. Yeah. HR, all of those inquiries about policies. I mean, that's just a custom LLM, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. You know, everything should be chatbotting. again, elevating people to be able to focus on culture, figure out about AI implementation strategies. So I think this is already, for us this is stage one. So when we think about teaching AI, we say you need to understand AI, you need to automate current processes, and then you need to reimagine your job. And what I'm describing is the automate. It's kind of where you're making the processes we already use simpler.

17:03But like I said, I think that the reimagine is the exciting next stage of this. and we think of the electricity analogy where electricity comes in in the 1870s but the ford productivity miracle it's when you really get the transformation of the economy it's in the 1920s when you rebuild factories no longer co-located with coal and organized into production lines that's that's 50 years later so what's the equivalent that you know we'll completely reimagine how we do things because ai will enable us it's not going to be 50 years it's going to be quicker than that yeah probably knock a zero off right um at least give us some examples then of jobs of the future and how they're going to change because sometimes I like to get when speaking in front of audiences and so on you know as I was doing it in an accountancy firm last week saying that even in my working lifetime of 15 years your job would have completely changed like all the tools that you do to do it will have like dramatically changed so like all of our jobs have changed within the last 10-15 years anyway right but we perhaps don't appreciate that as much because we don't step back and look look at it like that how do you think it might change in the next five years you can pick any jobs you like i actually think there will be some convergence here in fact across jobs and i think that you'll see some kind of core skills that everybody will need to know and have in all jobs so i think that um the ability to learn is going to be the kind of critical skill for people and that really is something that you can develop as a skill you know learning is about the humility to let go of expertise the confidence to know that you're not stupid it's just new you know the grit to keep going so there's a lot you can do to build your learning muscle but I think everyone's going to need that I think logic's going to become very important you know QA the ability to kind of test and improve things and so I think you're going to get this kind of some degree of convergence I think in the immediate run every single person needs to know how to use AI to research analyze create communicate and to some extent code and that's just the new basic skill set that everybody really needs to have and you know that's as I say when we when we train people in AI that's what we would call module one that's understand as well as understanding broadly what is the transformer model how does the word vector work basically what happens if I press type something into perplexity you know kind of broadly what happens not completely but broadly what happens when something comes back everyone needs to understand that people need to understand how to automate their current work and I think people have to have an eye on where their jobs are going to go what would be a way of achieving that outcome now with a different set of processes i think that those i think in all roles that is going to be now relevant uh i see a big hole in my gap about i've already admitted that i can't do coding um so the five things you give them but i know i should be i know i should sort of like have a better handle on it than i well well but i think that with that so i think that the role of software engineer continues because there are big complex engineering programs that require people who are software engineers but i do think that some of these very simple low code tools people who don't understand code can use yeah you wouldn't want to create complex systems with them because they're ungovernable on you know something goes wrong you can't do anything but for people who can't code they should have the ability now to do some very basic coding with ai yeah are you a fan of jimmy's jobs of the future hi i'm sunny one of the producers behind the show and we don't just make this podcast, we produce some of the best business content out there, working with global brands and founders.

20:47Over the past year, we've flown around the world and demand keeps growing. And with four prime ministers trusting us with their appearances on this show, you're in safe hands. So if you're already in the market for a podcast or standout business content, why not start with us? Drop me a line at sunny at boxlight.io, try our podcast calculator, or book a meeting at boxlight.io. That's boxlight.io. Now, back to Jimmy. What do you think you would be studying or what career do you think you'd be looking to get into if you were in your early 20s now?

21:29I actually think, oh gosh, what would I do in my early 20s now? It's funny, I listened to your interview with Jeremy Hunt where he said he thought everyone should start a business in their 20s. And I thought that was a really good piece of advice. I think a lot on Doon, I'll just give you a few seconds to think about it. It is interesting that I find that people that come over as a lot more entrepreneurial have probably got some kind of side hustle potentially or something. It's just interesting. You'll get in this generation, I sort of talk about how did people and how did they make their first money.

22:02like for our parents generation it might have been newspaper kind of round something like that for our generation probably hospitality like some sort of waiting barista type job but for the generation coming through now they'll have earned their first money online almost certainly yeah I think that's good that's quite a kind of like it's a bigger mind shift change than we think perhaps I think you know so we will talk about the careers enterprise company but we always used to say you need to figure out where your passion meets your talent meets the market you know that's the sort of sweet spot and I think it's still true you have to think a bit about who you are and if that market's going to evolve I don't think it matters that much because you will evolve with it you know people who are hiring 10 years in the future aren't expecting you to figure out what they're hiring for now they're expecting you just be really good at what you can do now and be willing to learn the next thing when it comes along so I think there is an element of not having to panic about not being able to predict the future you need to be a billionaire if you could.

23:00I think being really good at what you do and being also prepared to learn new things should those things become less relevant is probably the most important thing. And I really believe in finding work that you care about that is meaningful to you. I think that's a really big part of the human experience and I would really encourage people to try to do that. And how do young people do that early on in their career, do you think? Because I think that's one of the challenges, isn't it? When you're young, you don't know much about the world and much about careers. And this comes to the central thesis of this podcast, which is I don't think there's ever been more exciting jobs, more opportunity for youngsters out there, or anyone wanting to switch career, actually.

23:45But fundamentally, that explosion in choice and opportunity actually conversely makes it harder for some people because the sort of standard routes are not as obvious as they once were. So how do young people try lots of different things? Well, I mean, that is the answer, I think. I think we probably agree on this. Try lots of different things. And so, I mean, to talk about the Careers Enterprise Company and what we were trying to do there, that was the central thesis, which was that young people need to have vivid, real experiences of the world of work where they try things out and essentially try to figure out if it's a match for what they care about, what they like to do.

24:25Just back up slightly and explain what the Careers and Enterprise Company is for those that aren't as obsessed with this stuff as you and I. Yeah, very fast. So Careers and Enterprise Company was set up 10 years ago. I was the founding CEO to try to provide a new approach to careers education in the country. and the kind of core idea was that we needed to make the world of work relatable and real for young people and help them to make sensible iterative choices through their entire schooling so that by the time they left they were equipped with a reasonable sense of the options and where they fit in terms of their preferences and and the way we did that was that we um first of all adopted this modern evidence-led approach to careers education which is not about just having one careers advice interview but about a kind of comprehensive vivid suite of experiences and it's really about first of all having a lot of different encounters with employers to just to get you fizzing to make you think that work is interesting yeah you know because frankly just having words like lawyers said to you, and we have zero meaning for a child, you know, less than zero meaning.

25:43Pick on the lawyers, though. Do like that. Many of these jobs have zero meaning, you know. So you have vivid experiences, meeting employers, asking them how much money they make per hour was often what people would ask, which is wonderful. But, you know, you really kind of, you know, things that were relatable. Yeah, yeah. We don't talk about that stuff enough, right? Yeah, exactly. So kind of get your kids interested and help them start to have a sense for what these things are like. Then try some things out, a bit of work experience, go and visit some offices, spend a bit more time. Essentially testing your hypothesis, supported by some careers advice, supported by some labour market information and understanding of your local economy.

26:22And then iterate. Don't like that. Blood makes me feel sick. Probably not going to be a doctor. Discover the sort of real realities of what some of these jobs are like and keep testing and iterating. because as you say it's extremely difficult for children to have any idea of what they would be suited for when they have no sense of what the thing is that they're aiming at you know and often don't even have a sense of what their skills are in regards to that you know is it teamwork is it not teamwork am i working in an office what do these things mean how do they make me feel um let's touch on a bit of that on the salary stuff because i think it's important you mentioned you know people that have done your courses are able to sort of get promoted two three times quicker than perhaps sort of standard graduates etc give us an example of some of the careers that people are going into when they've done your work and what they can kind of expect to be sort of earning okay well I will just give you one example I hope the person who I've got my mind won't be annoyed I'm using their example but I was on a panel just recently it's relevant to this with a young lady who'd been through our course and he was now running a big team at Spotify and we were talking to a bunch of women it was the Women in Tech Conference, and she said, I used to be a temping executive assistant.

27:35She said, I just make so much money now. You know, women, do this. And I just thought, yes. And actually, somebody else on the panel said, it's not the only reason to do it, and it's not all about the money, but I thought, yes. For some young women who might be in jobs that aren't paying them well, this is a way of getting into fast-paced, high-growth, well-paid jobs. And I think we should be absolutely unashamed of saying that. Tech is an incredible, life-changing industry to be in. And that's why the fact that at the moment it's not always accessible for women or people from certain backgrounds is a huge problem.

28:11So what did they go on to do then? Yeah, well, so some of the people running the Financial Times tech team came through Makers. They either pivoted internally in the Financial Times or came in from outside. So running tech teams, CTOs, senior people in government tech came through makers, senior consultants at Deloitte Digital came through makers. One of the CTOs who's hiring with us now as a former maker. I mean, lots of CTOs. In fact, a lot of the CTOs, I think, in the UK tech scene, and a lot of women especially, came through the makers route. So having nearly all of the people who go through makers stay in the tech industry, and we've been around for 12 years, so they are senior.

28:56how has it been um taking over a ceo of quite a young company so not sort of being the founder like that's not a sort of super common story so i would love some kind of reflections on that and like when you're trying to raise money like how do you sort of sell it we can we can read a book on it because the founder has written a book about our ceo transition so evgeny shadner founded makers and is now an expert in sort of CEO transitions and gives other people advice and was an amazing person to take over from. You couldn't hope for a better handover. Yeah, it's a strange experience because you do inhabit a world that has been created by somebody else and that's quite an intimate journey.

29:44And the way I found it was that about a third of the things that were in the company were just totally resonated with me. It was easy for me to adopt them. about a third were a bit different from how I might have done them but I actually really liked the ideas behind them and the philosophy and I adopted them and about a third were just not how I wanted to do it and I really changed it quite radically maybe it's changed not quite a third a third over time but that was sort of broadly how it felt um but it's great because in a sense you take all of your skills and then you essentially learn how somebody else has thought about it and it's in you get the amplification of somebody else's brilliant thinking to sort of complement anything that you're able to bring yourself.

30:20So I think it was just a huge benefit. And I love Evgeny, the founder of the company. I think he's a genius. So it was a real pleasure and honour to take over what he'd built. And how much money has the company kind of raised from different sources? We've raised reasonable amounts of money. We had, so Moulton has been a backer of ours for years. It was originally Ford Partners. Oh, yes. And so they've been with us for a long time. And we recently raised money from BGF, who came in in 2022. And we've along the way also worked with Educapital, which is a European edtech-focused investor. So we've had three investors over the last 10 years.

31:06They're all still working with us. And have they been useful and so on? Yeah, I mean, the investors see a ton of pattern recognition. When I was at McKinsey, I was very aware of that. Pattern recognition is very useful, and investors see a lot of companies going through things that you're going through once. So that's very helpful. I think the big test of investors is how they handle difficult times, and I would say that our investors have handled those really well.

31:40And at different times, they've been really helpful. with, you know, Moulton and four partners had a big focus on sort of non-financial support and they helped us with things to do with recruiting and organisational structure. And BGF's very helpful in terms of people as well and networks. So it's... It allows you to plug into a bigger... Yeah, it's all helpful.

32:07And you'd obviously worked in Number 10 before as well, but prior to that, you were at McKinsey. I was and I'd be quite interested because I don't think we've actually ever sort of really spoken to anyone about kind of what McKinsey is and sometimes it's a bit of a black box but it is also basically one of the sort of you know gold stars of where graduates want to go and certainly cut their teeth etc just talk to us about what it does what your role was there and so on yeah so I joined McKinsey as an analyst so that's kind of entry-level role people straight out of university and i mean mckinsey solves big problems for companies that's what it it's famous for doing the problems that a company can't solve on its own either because it doesn't have a function to solve that particular kind of problem because it just doesn't fit into the normal functional structure or because it requires extra resource and support of some sort or because mckinsey's just seen it before in other places there are different reasons why it can help solve these problems but that's sort of what it does and it solves any complicated business problem that's its that's its offer yeah um so i i i joined mckinsey as an analyst i i worked there for 10 years in total i was a partner there by the time i left they paid for me to go to business school which was an amazing amazing opportunity um and what it's like is it's a place where people believe that you can solve any problem yeah and there's an unbelievable work ethic you know people work so hard which is sometimes criticized from the outside but it's also amazing because it's incredible the combination of i we believe we can solve any problem and we're going to and we will work as hard as we need to to do it is potent yeah so it can be very it's an exciting place to work um where did you study your mba i was i went to harvard okay yeah so it was an unbelievable i mean never in my wildest dreams did I think I was going to go and do an MBA at Harvard and then McKinsey paid for me to go can you imagine it was a real you know some of these you pinch yourself but I imagine but almost what you're trying to do now is disrupt the kind of MBA in some ways perhaps I think a lot of what I am driven by is I think I've had I feel very very very lucky to have had the most amazing career and like I said I feel like in time and space you know we were just saying this before to be born in London in the 80s to get much luckier than we get.

34:37But I feel that I also feel it's completely random that I got the opportunities that I got. And I really believe this. I believe that where people fall out of the school system is a lot to do with which city they're born in and their parents and their gender. In fact, we know that the OECD proves the link between parental income and your income when you're 26. and the more unfair you think that the school system is the more you believe that there are hundreds, thousands or millions of people out there who could be doing different jobs if they were given the chance and I passionately believe that I passionately believe that it's very serendipitous where people get to early on and that you've got to give people the chance to get into the brilliant jobs at any point in their career How do you think most people get their first job?