Joshi Herrmann | The Future of Journalism & Local News

0:01This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18+. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. You know those friends who support your preference for podcasts over music on road trips?

0:34That's the energy State Farm brings to insurance. With over 19 ,000 local agents, they help you find the coverage that fits your needs. So you can spend less time worrying about insurance and more time enjoying the ride. Download the State Farm app or go online at statefarm.com. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Welcome to this episode of Jimmy's Jobs of the Future. I'm delighted to be joined by Yoshi Herman today, who is the founder of The Mill Media Company. It started as a lockdown project in Manchester five years ago, where he was writing a newsletter about local news in Manchester.

1:08But it has since expanded to Sheffield, Birmingham, Liverpool and London as well now. I joke when he came on the show a few years ago, it became the most expensive podcast I've ever recorded because at the end of it, I mentioned to him that if he ever was going to raise investment, investment I would be delighted to back him so I'm now a small angel investor in it. So it's great to get him back talk about the future of media and talk about kind of like community and so on which as you'll be hearing about later we have launched our new Jimmy's Jobs backstage pass which you can get much greater access to the show and more understanding of what we're doing behind the scenes but we'll get into that a bit more later.

1:47This episode was also powered by LinkedIn Thanks very much for listening. And on to today's episode. Make sure you subscribe so we can continue to get bigger and bigger guests.

2:01This episode is powered by LinkedIn. More on them later. Yoshi, welcome to Jimmy's Jobs of the Future. Thanks very much. The founder of Mill Media. You last came on the show like three years ago. You just sort of opened in three cities. give us a sense of the scale now and we should also say that uh i joke about the last interview with you being the most expensive one i ever did because at the end of it i said let me know if you do ever raise some money because i'd be happy to put some in so we should say i am also now an investor as well so which i very much appreciate yeah well you do write great investor notes actually like i do i do sort of um enjoy them but yeah give us an update on the sort of size and scale of where you're at so i think the last time we spoke was during the pandemic so it was or just after yeah it was certainly remote yes the way we did it so since then at that time we had operations in manchester and we had quite nascent new operations in sheffield and liverpool and since then we have expanded to london glasgow and birmingham and those new cities are doing really well and so we now have 20 journalists across the country um and most of those are writers and then we have a core team of editors as well um and there are now 180 000 people who are signed up to get our sort of journalism for free and there are close to 12 000 people who are signed up to pay for it so it's kind of um it's gone from being something that i started in manchester as a personal project sort of an experiment and an experiment to see whether the kind of journalism that i think is missing in the uk more narrative journalism more long-form journalism more in-depth whether that could work it's now really grown into something where i think we've got evidence that a lot of people do want that kind of thing and that they enjoy it and we think there's a market for this in all of these cities.

3:48And there's also a sort of market for journalists. Like a lot of journalists want to do this kind of work. Readers really want it. That's really what we're trying to achieve. And how has this growth sort of been in terms of that 180 ,000? Are you seeing the sort of compounding effects of it? I would say that as we get bigger it gets a little bit easier to grow that that that that number because we just know how to do things better we're probably a bit better at social media than we used to be yeah I find now that when we launched in a new city there were like hundreds of people who already know about us from other cities who will start to promote us already when we launched in Birmingham I very much noticed that some of our Manchester and Sheffield readers who are from Birmingham or who work in Birmingham were kind of already like posting on social media about it so it's almost like the waitrose effect people get really excited yeah people get really excited and so that's that's been hugely helpful because when i started out in manchester that you know i had no brand i had no backstory and i think like it you know you have to persuade people to get on board with a totally new thing now when we're launching in new places i think there are a lot of people who are like i like what media mill media do i've heard about their stories i might have read an investigation into this or that and i'm pleased that they're launching in this city so that's been helpful it's still a hard thing to do but it feels a little bit different and how have you found London because it was I re-listened to our episode and it was interesting because we discussed it but it seemed like yeah it was even before sort of a twinkle in your eye really yeah what did I say about London you were like you weren't sure about it at some point but somebody had asked you the day before about it as well and so on so that was your kind of thing and like yeah now fully staffed up and kind of going yeah we've got a great team in London now and we've got a great publication the londoner which is growing really really nicely so for the past few months the biggest growth we've had in the company has come from london i would say at the start in london i actually found it quite difficult the first few months yeah um we we put a job ad out in london we said we want staff writers and we want an editor and we didn't find the right editor but we found some staff writers so i hired them and they're very good people who've got great cvs but i think because i wasn't in london you know i still live in manchester and we didn't have an editor in London, I think it took us a while to work out what should we be doing?

6:10London's different to the other cities. You need a different type of story. I think the reason we've been successful in the past few months, growing much faster, stories being shared by all sorts of people like Jay Rayner and whatever, investigations having a huge impact. I think it's because the people who are running it, principally Hannah and Andrew, they have worked out what readers in London really want. And we have a nice mix now of investigative stuff, softer feature writing, kind of magazine feature writing, narrative stuff, and some kind of more explainery things. And that mix seems to work really well.

6:43And we've done some stories in London in the past few months that make me think, wow, like if we can carry on on that trajectory, we're going to have a very big number and we'll have a very big team. So I'd say London was a real challenge at the start and it's sort of a year later, it feels like it's starting to really pay off. and you had that particular story about the sort of night time jobs right that really took off I mean I read it like yeah it seems to have done really well that yeah that's a that's an example of a story where I wouldn't have expected that to have a huge public response but we went and interviewed and photographed people who get up in London between you know get the bus between 3am and 5am right so they're people who are working as cleaners they're people who are working in jobs where they have to start at 5am.

7:29And it got a huge response on Instagram. A million people viewed this Instagram post and it sort of felt like, okay, that's another just little signal. People like those stories about the hidden London, etc. So that's just been another thing we've learned along the way. Yeah. And there's quite a lot of interesting stuff happening in London, right? With the demise of the evening standard, sort of what Jim Watson's London-centric, and we talk about Times investing more in it as well. But it does seem quite an interesting sort of microcosm of it. Well, I think with the Standard falling away, I mean, I used to work for Evening Standard, as you know, but the Standard used to have a very large team.

8:06It printed newspaper every day. It was a pretty influential organ in London. And about a year and a half ago, the Standard went down to a weekly edition. They've lost a lot of staff over the past, I don't know, five years. I used to be one of eight feature writers on Evening Standard, and I think there might now be sort of one. So I think because the Evening Standard fell away in such an amazing city like London, inevitably a lot of people, including me, including Jim, including there was a great newsletter called London Spy. Dave Hill's been writing about London on his blog really well. There are several others who are trying to fill the gap.

8:41And now maybe none of those indie titles is ever going to be the size of the Evening Standard. Like I'd be surprised if there's like 150 journalist team in the near future. but I think Londoners feel like they've lost something not just with the decline of Evening Standard but with the decline of quality journalism about London generally and there are a lot of people who want some sort of solution and it's possible that the kind of people who read The Londoner might be slightly different to the kind of people who read Jim's newsletter or Dave's outfit or London's spy or some of these other options but I think what this kind of big surge of independent media will do is it will solve different problems for different people And obviously, you know, everyone who's doing it wants to be really big and wants to have a huge team, etc.

9:24But it's a city of 9 million people or 8 million people. I think there are a lot of opportunities for people to do good stuff in London. Definitely. And what, just there was something interesting you said there about you were able to hire staff writers but not an editor. Just explain what the difference of those. Are they not, you know, are they not as transferable to an office like me? It's hard to hire editors when you're a media company. I think what we're trying to do is quite specific. We really focus on narrative journalism, journalism where you feel like you're being immersed in the story.

9:58And there's not as strong a tradition of that in the UK as there in the US. In the US, you have a lot of magazines, The New Yorker and The Atlantic and NYMAG, that do that kind of stuff. And I don't think there's as much of a tradition here. If you think of our main magazines, they tend to be more like Current Affairs, Analysis, The Spectator and New Statesman, et cetera. so I think I like bringing in journalists who can train up to do this kind of writing it's harder to bring in an editor who's just totally ready to go so we've tended to find I think when we put an ad out for the London role we got like 270 applications for the writing roles or something and we might have got 50 for the editor ones but it's tougher to find the editors that's what I found I can imagine that and there was also something interesting that you said on that podcast as well which was that you um you aim to be hundreds of people one day across the country so like what what is your sort of now five years in what's your kind of growth plans yeah that's a really good question I mean I think I probably only think a year or two ahead you know so I think like I guess when I started out I thought okay I've got I'm on my own you know I didn't start with a big team or lots of investors or anything I really started on my own I was writing a newsletter just me and I think my goal at that point was I want to have a tiny team I want to have like a couple of other people in an office and within a year that's what we had and that was all funded by subscriptions and then when we raised a bit of money from from investors a series of extremely extremely knowledgeable and wise individuals at that point I thought well there are we get all these emails from journalists across the country who would like to do it in Birmingham or in in Sheffield or in, maybe we can now start to do it in some of these places that other people want to do it.

11:47So it's after we raised the money that we were able to go to Birmingham. And so I just think of the next challenge. We get these emails all the time saying, would you ever do it in this place? Would you ever do it in this place? And we actually meet people in the office quite often who've got an interest in that. And then, I don't know, the next one we'll decide, we'll decide, okay, that's the right place to do it. But I think, I see the vast majority of our growth not being going to new cities. I see the vast majority of our growth fulfilling our potential in our cities. I mean, Manchester is an incredibly successful, fast-growing place.

12:18We think we've got a great brand there. I think we break the best stories in Manchester. Our investigations in Manchester are brilliant. They win awards, but there's a lot more we could do. If we had double the size of the reporting team and the editing team, there's a lot more we could do. We should have tens of thousands of people in Manchester who are paying us. So I think there's a huge amount of growth. Where are you at now in Manchester? So we've got 3 ,500 paying in Manchester. And they pay a good subscription price. It's not like a cheap product. But I think that there are a lot of other people who could be paying us if we were broadening out and doing more marketing.

12:54Next week we're doing a print edition that's going out to 50 ,000 people in Manchester. So I think we're probably pushing on marketing a bit more than we were before. Long term, yeah, I'd obviously love to have hundreds of people doing this. I think there's a huge demand for more in-depth journalism in this country that isn't hugely politically partisan, isn't just about news snippets, but gives you the kind of things that really make you understand what the story is really about. And so I think if we're clever with our marketing and we do the journalism well, we can get to that point. How are you distributing the 50 ,000 copies?

13:29We've got a series of local companies with vans going door to door, giving them out. And we've got our team going to stations. We've got, I think our head of ops is going to get her brother and his mates in the Christmas holidays to be distributing them. So it'll be all hands on deck. Yeah, yeah. That'll be quite fun. Yeah. And how has your job kind of changed with it all? Because LinkedIn has this kind of like fascinating bit of research which says that basically a founder feels like they're doing five jobs, right? And I was intrigued to get your thoughts on this. So it's sales, hiring, brand strategy, ops, and then the actual kind of like day job of journalism.

14:10Yeah. Like how does that sort of tally with your experience and how has your job changed in the five years? I mean, it definitely tallys with my experience. I suppose if I was doing a role in a large media company, I would have a focus, wouldn't I? I wouldn't be focusing on all those different things. So it's definitely true that that's how it feels. I think it goes beyond that, though. I think it also applies to not just your senior people, but sort of everyone. So when we're hiring, we're actually thinking like, not only are you going to be a good journalist or are you going to be a good editor, but are you going to be able to like do a bit of social media?

14:42Are you going to be like good at like writing like advertising copy that's going to sell subscriptions? Are you going to be someone who's going to deal well with our community? Like we like people who are going to like answer the comments well. And like we have a huge community focus. we have people our journalists have to be able to go to our events and talk about their stories in front of a audience and engage people and be warm and and and build a bit of a kind of local movement around what we're doing so we are kind of looking for people who are not just generalists but like a very good a whole bunch of different things which is actually obviously it's hard to find you know yeah and you know when i started my career i was on the evening stand and my job was to write features you know i wrote one or two features a week our team they really have to think about a lot more than that you know they have to talk to readers and they have to do a bit of marketing and they have to do a bit of strategy and they have to do a bit of editing on top of their writing and there's just a lot of things so I think you know in a company like ours that piece of research you just mentioned that kind of applies to a lot of people yeah and how have you found hiring and how many people do you have now so you've got 20 writers what what's on the sort of non-journalist side?

15:47It's 20 journalists. 20 journalists. And a couple of commercial people on top of that. Yeah. And of the journalists, you're talking about 14 writers and the rest are editors. So that's how we break down. With the hiring, a certain amount of it is kind of like people who read our newsletters and who already really love the journalism and want to apply. A certain part of it is that. A certain part of it is kind of getting various people on Twitter to share it and mention it and that kind of thing or an act. LinkedIn is obviously a big part of it. As we are talking about LinkedIn, I wanted to mention they have partnered with us on this episode.

16:25They have just released some interesting new research on small businesses in 2025. A lot of it feels like it could have been written with founders like Yoshi in mind. One stat that really jumped out at me was that people in small businesses are growing their online networks faster than those in bigger companies. I've often said that small businesses could be the ones to gain the most from AI and the report states that already 60 % of small businesses say that AI is critical to their growth with adoption moving quicker than anyone expected. Back to the episode. I mean I've found with LinkedIn that it's the place where we kind of market the company you know because each of our individual brands in our cities the Mill in Manchester, the Tribune in Sheffield, the Dispatch in Birmingham, sign up if you're in any of those cities.

17:09Those are city journalism brands. Whereas the brand of Mill Media, the company, that's a company brand. And I find basically we try to build that brand on LinkedIn. We talk about the awards we're being nominated for. We talk about the people who are joining the company. We talk about the kind of milestones. And if we get to 10 ,000 paying subscribers, we talk about it on LinkedIn. So we try to use LinkedIn as the place where we kind of build up like the identity of the company as a corporate entity. rather than the individual city brands. They more do their marketing via Blue Sky and Instagram and the traditional social networks.

17:47Yeah, so you're sort of doing the umbrella bit of it there, which is interesting. Because it is one of these things, isn't it, where you've got to be going on about how many Instagram followers you've got or whatever doesn't necessarily actually translate that well to other platforms or whatever. So it's quite interesting that you're sort of doing it with that. And different platforms, I think, convert to an email newsletter much better than others. And you kind of almost have to hustle to get people from an Instagram account to an email news list. If you think of our funnel, it's like people might hear about us via a video on Instagram.

18:20Then they might follow us on Instagram. Then they'll see an Instagram story where we link to a particular story. They'll join off for an email list. Then they'll become a paying member. So you have to fight quite hard to get people to come down the funnel to enjoy your stuff. and then to convert. But I think that's the thing we've tried to learn and tried to get better at. And how are you, when you're hiring people, what are you trying to sort of assess for? And have the skills and the personalities changed a bit from sort of being two, three people now at 20? I think the thing I've realised in the past couple of years is that I care a lot about character.

18:55You know, like in the early days, I think you almost got the good characters by chance because they were the only people attracted to come and join a tiny thing. The people who wanted to take a risk on you were the right characters. You may have noticed we've been doing something different recently. From our budget live stream to the episode where I sat down with the producers, we've been experimenting with new formats that you've been asking for. We want to do much more of that in 2026. But truthfully, those episodes don't quite perform like some of our blockbuster ones with Prime Ministers or Business Titans.

19:27Even though amongst our core fans, they're often your favourite. So in early 2026, we're giving you the opportunity to be even more involved with the show. And we are launching Jimmy's Jobs backstage. The waitlist is now open. And if you pledge your annual support, we'll etch your name into our brand new studio. We'll be able to bring you more into the show by listening to your guest suggestions and your questions that you have for them. And there'll also be more live shows next year, which you'll get early access to. If you or someone you know are a fan of this new way of doing media, check out the show notes to see how to join us backstage or give it as a Christmas gift.

20:08And hey, you might even be able to put it through your learning and development budget. See you backstage. Now back to the episode. Sort of self-selecting a bit. Yeah, but I think that now when we're hiring, I spend quite a lot of time thinking, like, is this the kind of person who when there's a difficult moment, they will hang tough? You know, are they a tough individual? Like, will they be able to cope with stress? Will they be able to cope with people trying to intimidate them? You know, like quite a lot when you're doing journalism, people are trying to stop you doing a story or they're legally threatening you.

20:41Or maybe they don't want to speak to you about something that yesterday they did speak to you about. and you have to be quite tough and you have to be quite, you know, you have to be quite kind of committed to the final result. And I think there are lots of really good journalists who wouldn't necessarily be like a character fit for what we're trying to do. And, you know, from you running your company, like you try and have people around you who are going to compliment you. Yeah. And I find I work best with people who have this kind of team attitude, who are very locked in, who have incredibly high standards, who don't mind being pushed, who like listening.

21:17Because again, there are great people who are very good at what they do, but they don't really listen that much and they think they've kind of reached the level. That's obviously not going to work for me, especially when you're trying to do something quite distinctive. So I think about those kind of traits a lot. And how do you assess for character in interviews? I think you listen out for what people are saying that they don't quite realise they're saying. When I did an interview this morning, actually, and people say things, you know, you ask someone a question and then they don't answer the thing you asked about.

21:52They answer a slightly different thing. Sometimes they do that because they want to burnish their ego or they want to show off their knowledge of your company. Sometimes it's kind of very well-meaning. Oh, I read this thing on the mail, this thing on the mail. But if you've asked about something else, then you immediately have the impression, I think, this is someone who, when you're doing edits with them, won't listen. And then the next time they write a story, it won't be any better. The most frustrating thing is when you hire people and they don't improve, you know, because you need massive improvement, obviously.

22:19I need to improve, but everyone needs to improve. And so I'm listening out for people who actually listen. You know, are they taking in the information? Are they giving a good answer? I don't like things, people who are like super long-winded in interviews, because it's kind of like, well, that's going to be annoying, isn't it? That's going to be an incredibly irritating situation. I want, you know, concise answers, thoughtful people, a bit of challenge sometimes, people who think you know for themselves i listen out way more in interviews now like i listen out for the little traits and i try to think would that be something that we want you know yeah yeah yeah i think that uh yeah it's really interesting in terms of like listening on the answers and i i'm always talking about massive skill of future brevity right like it's one thing that ai is not helping with like it's just making people write really long posts really long yeah stuff needlessly yeah it's like getting to something yeah it's the old tabloid journalism right yeah getting to the point quickly yeah um now i do want to talk about ai but i was going to ask you rather than sort of about the sort of writing side of it whether you've been using it much with mill media as a kind of business and sort of on that side of things rather than the writing side have you been using it much so I think we use it a little bit for research so we'll use like chat GPT a little bit when it's like we're writing a story about this thing and we'll see what it can surface and we'll see how that compares to what we've surfaced I won't normally get the reporters to do that but as an editor preparing to do an edit I'll sometimes do a search give me a briefing on this with all the links whatever and then I'll compare that to kind of what the writers come up with in the story and occasionally that means I'll be able to say well there's this think tank who did this report and this thing that you didn't get, you know.

24:01So I find it really useful for that. We keep a real firewall between anything like that and the writing process, though. Because I think that, you know, I think over the next few years, more and more of what people read will be AI-generated, won't it? I mean, obviously, you can already feel that some of people's posts on different social networks are AI-generated. You can already tell that some of the journalism you read in, you know, various digital sites feels AI-generated. I know a lot of financial news has become quite AI-generated. And I think that that will create a demand for more human writing and more human journalism and more human connection.

24:37And I would rather be at the human end of it. I think there was an interesting argument made in a business newsletter that I read recently, the Stratechery newsletter. Do you read that? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Ben Thompson. Yeah, I've been reading it for ages. He basically made an argument that there's this epochal change happening in media and how we consume content. similar to kind of the Gutenberg press, similar to the arrival of the internet. And he basically said, a very large proportion of what we consume in a few years' time is going to be AI generated. And the thing that AIs won't be good at is creating community.

25:14Why? Because the vast majority of what we consume will be made just for us, right? In the internet age, things were made for millions of people. In the print age, things were made for 10 ,000, 50 ,000 people. But suddenly, the thing that we're reading is made just for us, which means that you can't talk to anyone about it. It doesn't create community. It's not like we all watched Celebrity Traitors and then we can talk about it. I was at dinner last night talking about Celebrity Traitors. Why is Joe Marler so good and why are all the supposedly clever people so bad? But that's only because we watched the same thing.

25:45All the information we're going to be getting from AI will be tailored to us. And so Ben Thompson makes the argument that they will suddenly create a huge area, like area, a huge sort of room for community-based media. Journalism that feels human, where lots of people consume the same thing, where they then commune around it, they talk around it, which I think is particularly important in local. So I'd like to be at the community end of it, where 20 ,000 people have just read the same thing and they talk about it, because I know that a lot of the other things they've read that day, especially in a couple of years' time, will be tailored just for them and will offer no ability to commune or to text anyone else.

26:23and I think that's like going to be a very rich part of the media ecosystem. Eliza Philby who's been on the show Generational Historian was telling me that there was some ladies who were sort of brunching the other day I think they were all mums and so on and they were they were they sort of read her substat kind of like every week and sort of partly discuss that which I found kind of fascinating yeah and it's yeah that sort of community aspect is going to be it's going to be really interesting because you've been doing a few live events and stuff as well right to kind of drive a bit more of that yeah definitely and we tend to do them less in a kind of sell loads of tickets and make money from it and more in a kind of get 100 people in the room who really like this publication yeah so we had one for our fifth year birthday on the mill and about you know 100 people were there and we booked out a bar in manchester and i got all of my team on stage and they all got up to speak about one story that they'd done over the past five years we had one from 2020 one from 21 and the people in the room loved it because they had read those stories generally they'd read those stories and now they were hearing from the person who wrote the story reflecting maybe two years later one year later and whenever i go to our mill member events i always feel like people quote stories at me they're like i read this i read that it's literally like because we've all read this thing in common we have something in common so you see people at the bar talking who don't know each other a lot of people come on their own to these events yeah but they meet other people there because it's very easy to be like what's your favorite mill story you know it's almost like So I think that's a great example of that Ben Thompson point, which is like having a communal experience consuming one thing, especially if it feels very human made, can really like allow people to create community.

28:01We're going to be launching our community soon, aren't we, Sonny? We've been banging on about it for absolutely ages, but maybe if I commit to it now, a public finance podcast will actually get the rails sorted for it. Let's do it. Exactly. But the main thing that we've sort of struggled with is like, it's just where do you do it? like is it Substack, is it Patreon, etc. Hopefully by the time this goes out I'll be able to do a voiceover because we'll know where it goes. But I do think it's interesting on that sort of local side. It makes me think about some of the hyper local ones as well like sort of, you know, there's like Balam Newsie and Tooting Newsie and these types of things that I don't think do that type of thing but actually you would be able to sort of drive people.

28:44Yeah, and people like it. People like having connections over stuff that they care about. I feel like people feel probably less physically connected to the places they live now, you know. People move more often, particularly professional people, they move more often. People don't live near their parents anywhere near as much as they used to. I mean, obviously over the past, like, 100 years, you know, people have stopped living next to the same person for 50 years and in the same house as their parents, et cetera. So I think when you give people local chances to kind of get to know each other again and reconnect with the place that they live, people really like that.

29:15um now i'm going to try and ask you the question again about ai because we've just spoken about the previous question but have you but i i found it quite useful as a sort of like almost crazy icon like business coach and stuff like that i mean have you found it helpful as a founder in that side of things i found it helpful when i was walking around pompeii and i asked it questions about okay i'm in the amphitheater what would you know my my my wife hated this right we both had a headphone in and I was saying like so what happened in this amphitheater and they'd be like the gladiators came down and the lions came down I used it in that way I don't know if I used it that much as a founder but yeah actually I think I have because you know there are these questions you know you were involved in a fundraising round that we did you know you've got these questions okay so does EIS relief apply if a company's four years old yes it does whatever and obviously I could go on all the different websites to read this but I kind of I like it when it comes to summarizing information that's clearly already out there.

30:13There's a million web pages that say how the rules work and it summarizes. I think it's really good for that. It definitely saves me a lot of time. I have a lot of confidence in it for that kind of stuff. I really lose confidence in it when you're asking questions about stuff where there isn't a lot of reporting already because it starts to sometimes sort of fill in the gaps, et cetera. Yeah, yeah, it's going to be a massive part of how a lot of companies operate, I think. Here's a random question for you, but you've just mentioned the amphitheatre, which made me think of it, because if I could go back in time for 24 hours in history, to any moment, anywhere in the world, I think I'd pick the amphitheatre for the day.