Mathieu Flamini | Arsenal, Building a Company & How To Win Like An Athlete

30:47You know, like, I mean, like you twist your knee, you twist your own curl. I mean, yeah, you get a lot of players live on anti-inflammatory, which is like not good at all. And I remember like a discussion with Arsene Wenger saying that there was a study at the time for Olympic athletes and they asked them the question, would you rather die before 40 but be an Olympic winner? or will you be willing to die very old in your bed and not win anything? And I think 80 % of basically the athletes answered they will be willing to die before 40 and be winners. This shows you how much dedication and how much you are willing to put your life on the line to win.

31:36And that's what sports gives you. And this is huge sacrifice. I mean, you cannot plan anything. I mean, you have three weeks off. The rest of your time, you're on duty. Meaning like you train every day. I mean, especially when you're in the UK. I mean, like you play for Boxing Day. You play on the 1st of January. So you really need to love, I mean, what you do. I mean, because it's a tremendous amount of pressure. I mean, like you cannot live on the past. every three days you have millions of people who are going to Jojo and you can't hide when you're on a football pitch you cannot hide two questions here did you find it hard to retire and how did you find it when your sort of abilities are beginning to decline so it's funny i was discussing that today with a with a close friend we were discussing about the art of exiting.

32:38You know? And we were seeing that it is very difficult to basically live at the right time. Mm-hmm. Because, I mean, being an athlete, playing at the very highest level, I mean, it's about adrenaline. It's about getting so much love, affection, the communion with the fans. You know, like, when you're playing at Arsenal, you know, like, at the Emirates, or even before at Highbury, I mean, like, this is, like, total communion. You know, like, I don't see anything, you know, like, which is a better feeling, you know, like, even, like, even, you know, like, even sex is not as good as that, I would say, you know, like, so it's, I don't know how to describe it, but it's so intense.

33:31Yeah. You know, like, then it's difficult to leave it behind. And that's why leaving at the right time is not something which is easy. On my side, look, I loved football more than anything else. It was a dream. And as I said before, I was privileged enough to live my dream. But, you know, I started, like, from a young age to think already what will come after. You know, it's like sometimes, you know, like I also had a discussion with another close friend of mine who lost his dad and his mom on the same day. And he was telling me, look, we don't speak about death enough, you know. And as an athlete, somebody said, we die twice.

34:18We die when we stop our career, when we retire, and we die, you know, like when we get old. This is real. You know, so I think talking about death, you know, like he's getting prepared for it. And speaking about retirement, what will come after the life of an athlete, speaking about it early enough to get prepared for it mentally. And also like getting prepared because when you're an athlete, everything is well organized. I mean, clubs taking care of everything. The day you stop, the lights switch off. And then you need to find structure. You need to find a new discipline. You need to find a new motivation.

34:59You need to find like a new adrenaline, a new challenge. This is not easy. You have to reinvent yourself. That's why you see a lot of them, a lot of athletes still stay in the sport world. They go to TV. They are agents. They are coaches because this is what they know. This is what they know the best, you know. But it's not easy to basically apply those learning to other sectors or other industries. totally just on the on the death point for death we've worked with a company called octopus legacy on writing your will and i have talked about this before on it like it is amazing doing that process of like writing your will out i talked about how it had such big kind of like impact on me kind of write a final letter to people and and so on it's quite like and i think you're right we totally don't talk about it enough and it can be vastly improved if we do i mean i think it's a particularly british thing but um yeah no it's it's interesting so how did how did you make that switch then so you're because you finished at gotafe right um so you're playing in spain and what what was the process like of that kind of like first year after of not being a professional look i mean first of all i think i started back here very long so i started i was barely 18 playing for the first team in Marseille.

36:23And I think what I'm the most proud is having last for so long. Because if today you ask me what's the hardest, is it to get there or is it to stay there? I'll tell you it is to stay there 100%. And that's one of the things I'm very proud that I've been playing, you know, at such a high level for such a long period of time. So I reached more or less, I was 35. I reached a point of my life where I think I didn't have anything else to prove. I mean, to myself, to the football world, because I've played there for such a long time. I was also like not willing to do the sacrifices anymore. And I also wanted to live.

37:03You know, and when I say living, meaning like do the simple things as going on a weekend with your friend, going to a birthday, going to a wedding. You know, like most of my friends got married. I don't think I've been to any wedding for 20 years because, you know, like, I was always on the road and, you know, enjoying my family, seeing my parents getting older and having the opportunity to spend more quality time with them instead of having to do, like, my, you know, like, New Year's, you know, like, at the hotel room because I'm playing on the first. So I just wanted to get back to a more simple and easy life and do, like, what people do during the life.

37:45So that's why I naturally, I would say, moved to, like, it was a new beginning, like, but I was already prepared for that because I started my, I would say, after career, you know, like, young enough to be mentally ready, to already have a kind of a structure and to know what I was going to do. So I was mentally ready and I was excited. And I was moving towards something I was passionate about. and I was moving towards something which was exciting me. And more importantly, you know, I had another challenge. And I think as an athlete, we are addicted to adrenaline and we are challengers, meaning like we love for the challenge.

38:30You know, like that's why for me, I mean, having a new challenge, having, you know, like be able to fulfill another passion was very important. And what is the adrenaline that you get now? because adrenaline is a very kind of like specific rush right where do you get that now in business wow so i consider myself like very lucky and privileged first as i was telling you because i lived of my passion for so many years but today that dream is being extended i'm lucky enough to to meet the most inspiring, incredible people. I mean, from head of states to like president of European commissions. I mean, like to people who are truly, I mean, changing things, having a global positive impact.

39:27I mean, like I'm lucky enough to meet like other incredible founders. I'm lucky enough to make like to meet like deal makers. I'm lucky enough to meet, you know, like, people who have those strong desires to have an impact. People who are living with purpose. People who are living with meaning. And if I look at my life, I mean, like, it's super exciting. You know, like, I was in Davos, like, two months ago. I was lucky enough to meet with, like, Christine Lagarde. You know, like, I was lucky enough to meet the French president a couple of times in the past few months. I was lucky enough to meet with the President of the European Commission and being involved with like a very important topic such as like the chemical strategy in Europe.

40:12So all those meetings are for me like super exciting because it generates one, a lot of adrenaline. Yeah, yeah. Two, it's about having the opportunity to have an impact. And more importantly, you know, like this impact is being like, I would say fulfilled by a real purpose. You know, like, I always, you know, tell people around me, I mean, like, what's your purpose? And they look at me like with a very weird, you know, very weird look, you know, but it's true. Why do you wake up every day? You know, like, what's your meaning? You know, like, what's the meaning in your life? So those are questions I ask myself.

40:50Yeah. And I'm super happy of having an answer because many people around don't have an answer. And it's not easy to find your purpose and to find your meaning. And you met King Charles as well, I saw. Yes, I had the opportunity to meet him twice in the past six months. Someone I respect and I admire very much because he's someone who has been involved and standing up for climate change for many, many, many decades now. I mean, he has been very vocal about it and he's trying to bring the private sector together in order to drive change. And I respect very much for that he was a visionary person because he was speaking about it already before you know many many others and this is super inspiring yeah yeah no he's uh he's just amazing in those um moments i do some work with the king's awards for enterprise so i've met him a couple of times and yeah he's the great leader he really is um and and talk to us a bit about we were chatting off camera beforehand about biohacking and so on like talk us through your approach to that how you deal with it because that is such a big part for a professional athlete right like in terms of what you're putting into your body it is i think um this is also sometimes we don't always realize but i mean so winning and losing so winning and losing you know the margins are so small okay and it takes very I mean like it takes like a millisecond you know like small inch to lose again okay so once you understood that you realize that every small percent you can put on your side to improve your performance is critical so at that level I mean like you start thinking like okay if If I sleep enough, I gain X percent of performance.

42:48If I eat healthy, I gain X percent of performance. If I drink enough water, I gain X percent of performance. I mean, training on the pitch, massage, stretching, recovery, all these makes you perform stronger. And that's something you can also apply in your life. Because when you're a CEO, when you're an entrepreneur and you're facing so much pressure, You're working 15 hours a day. You have to treat yourself as an athlete. So once you start understanding the why, and once you start having access to information, because information is power, you start applying it in your life. And small things such as drinking water.

43:32Why drinking water? Okay, you have heard drinking water is important. But if we don't tell people why it's important, it's irrelevant. your brain is 70 to 80 % water. Your heart is 70 to 80 % water. The same as your skin, your muscles. If you don't drink enough water, your brain doesn't function at 100%. Your heart doesn't function at 100%. So if you want to optimize your performance as a human being, you need to drink at least two to three liters of water a day. I don't eat any animal protein. Why? Because during my career, I understood that if I wanted to perform better, I had to cut animal protein to reduce the risk of injuries.

44:13Considering today that most of the fish or meat which is being produced is industrial, is farmed, I mean, like, it is using so many and so much antibiotics. I mean, because I want to live longer and to live better, I'm trying to apply the same, I mean, like, recipe. Cut animal protein in order to first lower my acidity in my bloodstream to reduce the risk of cancer. And two, to make sure I'm not eating antibiotics every time, you know, I'm having some animal protein. So those are small, you know, I will say like biohack I'm trying to apply on my everyday. I'm also like eating once a day. Yeah.

44:53Why? Because, you know, like, first of all, I train much less than I used to. Yeah. And by eating once a day, I do a small reboot every day. I let my body regenerate. you know my digestive system you know like is rebooting every day and it's a small detox i do i think it's also like it's been a journey i'll not tell people to go from one to a hundred in one day no but as a small step you know like if you go one day plant-based one day like my protein you're already reducing by 50 percent you know like the input so it's about a journey it's about what's good for me is not always necessary for good for others but applying you know like certain principle to you every day is very important you know and it's about like getting better and you know like performing better and living longer do you eat a breakfast lunch or dinner then when do i have early dinner so i'm trying to eat around 6 37 and during the day i'm back to back with my meetings back to back with my with interviews i don't even feel it yeah and whenever i feel a little bit like having eating something you know i have some nuts something super light and it helped me to last it's also like very interesting studies have shown that basically like you slow down your aging yeah when you reduce your eating because your body start generating you know substance which slow down your aging so it has like a tremendous you know like upside in doing that and considering also that unfortunately like we're surrounded by processed processed food you like the food waiting, you know, those days is using a lot of, I mean, like artificial substances.

46:36I mean, like also reducing your inputs is cutting these amount of substances which are not good for for your health. How have you found that as being part of the, you know, the French culture of food is just such a big way of life? I agree with you and the Italian one, but it's all about like, I mean, like, I don't see it as a, you know, some people see it as like a minus, a sacrifice. I see it as an upside. I don't touch butter. I use olive oil. I mean, I like to cook. So, I mean, like, I'm so much up for, like, fruit, vegetables. I do the best salad. I love quinoa. I love rice. I'm also, like, not black and white, meaning, like, I love a four-cheese pizza on a weekend.

47:20And I mean, but, you know, people have the tendency to say, I'm going to eat like six, six days on a really bad food. And once a week, I'm going to do like small detox. No, it should be the opposite. I mean, like you should basically eat super healthy five to six days a week and allow yourself, you know, like one day where you let yourself go. So it's all about balance. Yeah. You know, I think it's all about balance. But my advice is, look, don't touch processed food. I mean you should be able to I mean buy things which are not transformed tomatoes salad rice quinoa and cook for yourself I mean like that's the advice and being half Italian half French I love cooking and that's you know like the best way to basically like avoid to have to deal with this processed food which is like really really having a negative impact on people I mean there was a study showing than in the us i mean last year first time in the past 80 to 100 years life expectancy has been reducing how is that possible yeah how is that possible what's yeah i do find that kind of like a uh a staggering statistic uh what is the um what would be in your salad of choice if we were coming around your house for i mean you will have you will get like some quinoa or if not some brown rice you will have some tomatoes you will have some chickpeas you will have some broccolis you know I like chopped salad you know I like to I like to cook you know it's one of the few things who really takes my mind away I'm someone you know like I'm thinking all the time sometimes I think too much and I mean my surrounding can see me when I'm thinking my eyes you know like they're lost in the stars but you know like cooking, doing sport.

49:14Those are one of the things that really take my mind away. What would you... What does the next 10 years look like? You've had such an interesting and varied career now, and there are so many options available to you as a former athlete, but also having run really credible businesses. What does the next 10 years hold? So in a few words, you're asking me, what do I wish for myself? Yeah. Look to... I mean, first of all, I think like being healthy, I think is a priority. I mean, like we have the tendency also to forget and how lucky we are, you know, like when we are healthy and we can do whatever we want, you know, like even a run or walk in a park.

49:57I mean, like this is a real blessing, you know, like. So being healthy, still being surrounded by my family, by my friends, by people I truly love because I think the older you get, I mean, the smaller the circle becomes and the more time you want to give to the people you truly love. So I think like still be surrounded by the people I love. Definitely make a family, you know, like having kids, you know, like it's it's also like something I really, really want to achieve. And to keep doing what I love the most, I think like sometimes people are asking me like what advice would you like to give i mean like i don't think i'm good at giving any advice i think like everyone is different and yeah everyone has different background life experiences but i mean if there is one thing i can say is like do what you love do what you love because life is way too short to wake up in the morning and going to do something which you don't So basically it's like do whatever is required, do whatever is necessary for you to do something you love, you know, something you're passionate about.

51:16Would politics ever tell me, French politics? Look, right now, I mean, this is not on my radar. I don't think this is something I will do in a near future but yeah, you know, I think like we live in a world where we have the tendency to tell, I mean, the next generations, you know, like that it's not allowed anymore to believe in the dream. And that's what I love about sport and football in particular is the fact that you can be a nobody, you can be coming from a very unprivileged background and you could succeed. Yeah. You know, and that's why... It's very aristocratic, isn't it? Yeah, exactly.

52:00You know, like, and that's why sport and football, I mean, like, is still one of those few industries who still bring people together, people from different backgrounds, different religions, different origins, you know, different languages, brings people together, unite them, and you see the same in a football team. Yeah. And that's something I really admire. And this is something we still bring hope and we still tell the next generation and young kids, you are still allowed to believe in your dream. And we live in a world where more and more, it's not an option anymore. And I feel this is sad.

52:37So that's why I think sport has this power. And definitely if tomorrow I have kids, I would love them to be part of a team. because, you know, from a very early age, it teaches you to adapt. It teaches you to get out of your bubble and basically, like, interact with people who come from a different origin, different culture, different religion. You have to find your place in a team the same way you have to find your place in this world, you know, and you deal with, like, hard work. You deal with competition. You know, like, dealing with competition is not easy. most of people as soon as they have to face competition they disappear you have to embrace competition because competition makes people better yeah it makes you better it gets you out of your comfort zone because the reality is like what you learn the most is when you're out of your comfort zone you know i mean like most of the time i mean like we don't think about that so that's why competition is very important it's not something we teach at school or at least we don't teach it enough.

53:43That's why sometimes, you know, like, you know, like I see in a company I've built, you know, like sometimes I'm very direct, you know, like I'm very direct. I don't have much filter. You know, I expect people to be transparent and direct and honest with me. You know, like I hate, you know, like to be too politically correct. You know, like if you care about someone, you want, you owe that person honesty, transparency. And that's how I am, you know, like, and it's not always easy because, you know, like, maybe like I will say, like, in a more corporate world, you have to be more politically correct.

54:25You have to be much more like, much more soft in your approach. But the reality is like, I love to win. And in order to win, you need to build a winning team. And if you associate winners, I remember when I used to play for Arsenal, when I used to play for AC Milan, I mean, for me, what was very important was like, okay, what are the ambitions of the club? Yeah. Okay. I mean, like, are we going to be able to recruit the best players? I mean, like, in this year, are we going to go fighting for the title race? Or are we going to simply, like, be part of this Premier League? it was super important so for me it seems obvious than if someone is in my team they're going to want to win the the big trophy and if you want to be to win the big trophy you need to be surrendered of like the best people for that i mean you need to be very much demanding with yourself and very much demanding with others because we're all on the same boat i remember being in a team we don't wait for the manager to come and to tell us to move ourselves.

55:33Yeah. If you don't do the job, you're bringing me down. And I expect the same, you know, like from my team, you know, like, I expect all of them to be wanting to be successful. And if somebody next to you doesn't do the job, he brings you down. So I believe it is your job also to say, hey, we need more from you because if not, we're going to slowly die together. How do you identify that talent though, right? We talked about it right at the start. Football, it's easier. There's systems and there's setups. When you're doing it in private sector and business, how do you go about identifying that talent?

56:13I think this is one of still my limitations. I don't think I'm good enough at identifying, you know, like to be spot on. You know, I think I've made a lot of mistakes in the past and I'm trying, as I said before, you know, you learn, right? I mean, like, so... So what have you learned about hiring? Look, I think it's about... It's not always necessary about the expertise. It's about also the mindset, okay? Because expertise can be acquired. Look, I don't have any chemical background. I will not have the pretency to say, like, I know as much as maybe like the other people from the company, but, you know, I believe very much in school of life, you know, because between the theory and the practice, there is a whole world.

57:06Okay? So what I've learned, I think, is onboarding the people who have the right mindset. Being like in a corporate is completely different when you're building a company. You know, I mean, the founder of LinkedIn said, you build a plane, I mean you jump and as you're falling you build a plane you know that's true I mean like and if you don't have the right mindset you only see the problem if you change that mindset for each problem you come with 10 solutions and being in a management and that's something you know I tell my management and you know like and if they listen to this podcast I mean they will definitely think about it our job is to turn the impossible into possible.

57:56That's why I get so frustrated when I hear, no, but I was told it was not possible. No, I was told it is not allowed. No, I was told we couldn't. The job of someone in the management, and even more an entrepreneur, is to turn something impossible into possible. That's why I get very frustrated when I hear excuses, because for me, they are excuses. I mean, for me, when I get a no, this is when the journey starts. You know, how do I'm going to convert this no into a yes? And until I haven't achieved it, I will not stop. And that, I think, is the right mindset and the mindset which is necessary if you want to succeed as an entrepreneur, as a CEO, or as a business person.

58:47We have this thing where when we're trying to book guests, if we get a no from somebody, that's a good sign. Because you've opened the communications and you can persuade them. Like, that's such an interesting point. It's like, we can work on it. Exactly. And as I was saying, I think the mindset makes a whole difference. I was in Davos, I mean, like, as I was saying, and Elon Musk said, it's better being optimistic and being wrong than being pessimistic and being right. Yeah, definitely. And I couldn't agree more in that. I'm definitely very optimistic, very positive. And I'll always assume that it is feasible and it is possible.

59:32And you have to demonstrate to me that it is not. Rather than starting thinking it is not possible and trying to demonstrate that it is, you see. And I think I've applied very much that mindset, you know, in my football career. and I'm applying it today not only in my business career but in my everyday life. Will you be at Davos next year, do you think? Maybe. Yeah, we're going to be there next. Amazing. So definitely, if I'm there, I'll see you there. Do part two. Yeah. I see you. Thanks very much for coming on Jimmy's Jobs of the Future. Thank you very much. We've just got a few quick fires for you, if that's all right.

1:00:09Yes. Hardest player you've played against in midfield? Missy. Yeah, okay. best player you've played with? Ronaldinho best defender you've played with? Paulo Maldini best business book you've read?

1:00:33Shoes Dog yeah favourite goal you scored? against Tottenham which one? Devoli um We are recording this a couple of days after Arsenal have lost the Carabao Cup. How many of the three trophies do you think they'll win this season? The remaining three? Will Spurs go down? Look, I mean, like, as an Arsenal fan, obviously, like, this would make me feel extremely good. But I will miss, you know, like, the Derby and Arsenal winning every time against them. um what is your favorite meal for cheese pizza for cheese pizza for cheese pizza um and what advice would you give to a young 21 22 year old footballer now as i said before believe in your dream and if i've made it and many others did you can do it too um what have you used ai for look i mean like i'm using much more like my um chat tdp or like than google those days i think like it's having a major impact and if you don't it's time for you to do it when did you last speak to arson banger it's funny enough i spoke to him last week all All right.

1:02:00What about? Just a few things, personal radar. Which players are you still in touch with? Is there a WhatsApp group? Yeah. I mean, like, look, many of them, I mean, like, still speaking to Mezut, Robin Van Persie, Bakary Sanya. I mean, like, you know, like I'm part of this big family of football and this is part of my DNA, you know, this is who I am. So I will obviously like always be part of it and yeah I'm still in contact with a lot of them. We see each other at conferences, we see each other at football games. Who's one of the players that's had the most interesting post career do you think?

1:02:45Who's done something that maybe you didn't expect or? that's a very good question um i mean it's difficult to pick one yeah i think like i think like you have very good examples of athlete i mean like starting to try to diversify the portfolio i was reading today i mean like you've got mbappe after um griezmann investing in a company called Alain, French company in France. You have also like other players which also like diversifying, you know, like doing other things. So I think it's becoming more and more of a trend. We have seen this happening in the US in the past few decades. And I see more and more it is happening in Europe with more and more athletes wanting to basically like diversify the portfolio before we were doing like real estate.

1:03:42I mean, like, maybe of like, um, maybe a few restaurants or a fashion brand. But now I think like, I think tech is becoming such a big, a big, big part of this world. So athletes also want to have like exposure to this world. What advice do you give a young footballer in terms of how to get good advice around them? Because I think that's one of the hardest things. Because it's just hard when you're 20, 21 anyway to like... It is very hard, and sometimes we have the tendency to forget. I mean, like, you go from being a nobody to being under the spotlight from one day to another. And you're not always prepared for that.

1:04:27I mean, when it comes to mentally, when it comes also, like, to people around you. Because most of the football players come from very modest background, and the people around those players don't necessarily have the expertise is to manage a career, to manage like, I mean, millions of euros or pounds. So the advice is like surrounding yourself of professionals. It's very important. And being a professional, you know, like in sport, doesn't mean you're also a professional at investing or a professional at like managing like the wealth of a football player. So I think like getting out of your bubble, getting out of your comfort zone is basically like engaging with professionals for each topic.

1:05:20It's very important. So, yeah, I mean, like I think that is key. I mean, like it's key. It's like surround yourself with professionals, people who are truly experts. It's super important, especially like because those careers, you think it's long, but it's very short. I mean, compared to a lifetime. yeah um if we were building your five-a-side dream team right we've got maldini and we've got ronaldinho in who would be the goalkeeper and who would make up the other person alongside you i like as i said before i was lucky enough to play in some of the best teams with the best player so this is like too difficult and and i wouldn't want to to to hurt any any any anyone i mean i was very lucky because I was maybe not at the beginning or, you know, I was not always the best, but I always worked very hard.

1:06:14You know, like, and I think consistency, consistency, resilience, hard work is key to success. And I've played with, like, the most incredible players, as I say, like, I played with Thierry Henry, I played with, like, Pierre Lohr, I played with, like, Sidov, Ibrahimovic. It really is, though. You know, like, it was a dream. So, I really enjoyed every second and it would be too hard. I mean, like too limited to like five to five a side. You've lived in some of the best cities in the world. Milan, Paris, London. You live most of your time now in London. Why? I mean, the first aspect is I love the fact that London is a very cosmopolitan city.

1:07:01It's a melting pot. And I arrived here as I was saying, I was 19. And I probably have friends from all over the world, from India to China to Middle East. And that's something which is like so, so grateful because like different culture, different religion again, you know, like and this is an incredible journey. You know, like you go to eat like to an Indian friend, to a Middle East friend. I mean, like this has been helping me to grow as a human being so much. so this is first reason two I think you have access to so many things I mean museums, restaurants I mean it's such a lively city you know like and it's an incredible playground incredible playground and on top of that you also have a lot of greenery I mean so many parks and I love you know like running in those parks you know like going for a walk you know like I like to take my business call you know in a park I mean like it's so this is this combination of things which makes London a very special city.

1:08:08We often do that we go for we go for a walk when we're trying to sort out a thick problem near here around the park. What do you do to keep fit and so on now do you run gym? Run I mean I do body weight, I run in the park and yeah I'm trying to do that at least three to four times a week even if it's not always easy when because I'm traveling quite a lot for work Yeah. What's your 5k time? 5k time. I'll be embarrassed to tell you. I'm not doing, I mean, not as well as I would like. And what one thing could the UK do for entrepreneurship to kind of boost it, encourage it? Like if you were speaking to Keir Starmer, what's the one thing or Rachel Reeves?

1:08:53Look, I think maybe like making things first simpler to set up a company. to potentially having, like, to access to capitals, okay? Because, like, when you start, when you have a very early stage, you know, company, I mean, it's very, very difficult to access capitals. So maybe, like, structure it a little bit better. Also, like, recruiting talent is not easy. So maybe having a structure which brings entrepreneurs, you know, like, closer to people looking for jobs. Yeah. I mean, like, you know, I always say it's difficult to find a co-founder or to build a team. So bringing people together which have the same mindset and the same vision, maybe could be like a plus.

1:09:43That serendipity point, really important. Definitely. Fantastic. Is there another entrepreneur that we should get on the show that you've come across? Plenty. Who? i'll have i'll have a list i have quite a list to to tell you we'll send them across good thank you