Angie Martinez IRL - Laverne Cox: Stop Earning Love and Start Deserving It

28:24And start your day with intention with Waking Up With Ryan coming in July. Celebrate Pride with the Outspoken Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Pride, and listen now. What did Black music, food, and culture teach us about who we were becoming? 2016 was sort of that last era of monoculture, where we still consumed things in community. From Beyonce and Rihanna. Everybody wanted to be Beyonce. I don't think we'll ever see another Rihanna. To soul food, memory, identity, and the stories we carry through Black culture.

29:01What does it mean to be Black and eat in America? So we were this group of people who knew how to work the land, who knew how to live with the land. We make it do what it do. Therapy for Black Girls is bringing together the conversation shaping Black life right now. You will never make me feel bad for being a Black girl, for being a Black American girl, ever. Therapy for Black Girls is bringing it all to the mic. Listen to Therapy for Black Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So today's guest is a true trailblazer.

29:36an Emmy winning actress, producer, advocate, cultural icon who has transformed conversations around gender identity, representation, and visibility in mainstream media. We know her from all the things Orange is the New Black and many of the shows that she has been part of, and she's helped redefine what authentic storytelling could look like on television. And since then, she's become one of the most influential voices for LGBTQ plus rights, mental health, inclusive representation across entertainment and culture, and now also author of her new book, Transcendent. My gosh. Laverne Cox. That was.

30:13In Reliance. Thank you. You say you dreamed of a career that no one had ever had. Imagine that idea alone. That idea alone. You had this idea. you're this kid trying to figure out who you are. You want to be an actress. Nobody that looks like you has ever had the career that you have. Why on earth, where on earth did it even come from? How did you even dream that up? A little delusion.

30:49It's weird. When I was writing the book and And thinking about my childhood, it was so hard to write the book, because I really wanted to get to the truth of what I was experiencing. And even if it sounded weird or childish or whatever, I needed to just say what it was. And from my earliest memories, it really was a relationship to when the kids, during daycare, when I would get bullied by the other kids. And they beat me up, and my mother was like, why aren't you fighting back? And I remember distinctly thinking to myself, I'm above fighting with these kids. I'm... You say you're not, you weren't even a fighter, right?

31:27I'm not a fighter. I'm still, I'm a lover, not a fighter. I don't get that from you, but okay. I mean, I fight for my rights. I stand up for myself, but I'm not, I don't physically fight. But I felt I was above it. I felt like I was here for something bigger than that. I really did. And I don't know where that came from, but I've always felt that. And when my mother gave me, me and my brother, this Black history book, when I, we were about five or six years old, I kind of confiscated the book. And they were like these, you know, for kids, they have these little pictures and these biographies of famous African-Americans, W.B.

32:01Du Bois, Martin Luther King, of course, Malcolm X. I remember Catherine Dunham, though, Marian Anderson, Arthur Mitchell, and Liantine Price were like, I read them over and over again. And Liantine specifically, I'd never heard her sing. I didn't know anything about opera, but she had this turban and these high cheekbones. And she was just so dignified in the photo. And reading about these artists, specifically Arthur Mitchell, the first Black ballet dancer to dance in New York City Ballet, Catherine Dunham started her own ballet company, Marian Anderson, my God, broke the color barrier at the Metropolitan Opera.

32:37But then when the Daughters of the American Revolution didn't allow her to sing at Constitution Hall, Eleanor Roosevelt was like, why don't you sing at the Lincoln Memorial? And so instead of singing for a few thousand people, there were millions of people who heard her voice. And that changed things. And the things that these artists had to endure, at six years old, I was like, wouldn't it be cool? Because I always knew I was, you know, wanted to dance. And I knew I'd be a dancer in transition to acting. I knew this always, but I wanted to dance. And so at five years old, I was begging my mother for dance classes.

33:12Finally in third grade, I started to take dance. So I was like, how cool would it be if through my work as an artist, I could make things better for people who follow me? This idea enters my head at six years old. Six, wow. And so I had stuff to do. So I didn't have time to be bothered with these kids in their petty, whatever. There was a lot. What I love about the way you framed out the book, um also when you write a book it's like isn't it such a therapeutic kind of i don't know was it for you this experience because no because the book it is i think it is now as i talk about it the process i thought that memories i had forgotten a lot of my childhood and i thought in and and i thought i'd use more of the the way i disassociated when like i would be getting beat when i be beaten up or when my mother would yell i would disassociate and i would just go someplace else i imagine i was Darcelle, the lead solid gold dancer.

34:08Or Madonna. Or Madonna. I loved Madonna as a kid. Then Culture Club and Boy George came along. So I would just, I would literally disassociate it. And like, that's not unusual for a child can't process all that. So I would like go someplace else. So I thought I would be using that throughout the book. Whenever I didn't remember something, I would just go into whatever the fantasy was. But as I started working with my co-writer Felice, and she started asking me questions, memories started coming back and they were buried for a reason. Like really traumatizing things, ugly crying and just like core stuff of feeling dirty, disgusting, unlovable, unwanted.

34:56Like just the, I never felt wanted. I never felt wanted. And I felt like this incredible burden. I thought children ruined people's lives. My mother had two kids that she was raising by herself. And she was always reminding us how hard she had to work and how she had no help. She worked four jobs. I didn't actually even realize until we were in high school, she was still working four jobs, which is insane. It's insane. But she was always stressed out. And my therapist thinks that she was a narcissist, and that would explain a lot too. So she could just go off at the drop of a hat. So I was like walking on eggshells all the time.

35:42And so in figuring, and we have, when we think about the survival things, fight, flight, or freeze, there's also tend and befriend. Some people call it fawning. That's also a survival response. Tend and befriend is like, you know, with the bears in the woods, you're like, oh, Bear, it's okay. What can I do to make you feel better? Everything's gonna be all right." And that was me and my mother. My brother was like, fly. He was like, get me the fuck out of here. I was like, I'm gonna make you love me. I'm gonna make everything okay. And that was a lot of my childhood. Because I loved my mother so much.

36:21And I thought if I made all eights and I was really, really, really good. She would love me and she would want me.

36:33But I didn't feel an unconditional love. A love because I just was. Let alone all the things internally that you were discovering about yourself that was different than your brother and different than your friends and pretty much everybody else in your school. I love the way you framed the book in three parts. So first part is, what's wrong with me. Second part is what happened to me. And then third part is what's right with me. So good. By the way, just that alone is so good. I think all of us in our own lives, but that is those those three that framework, I just kind of assess I just told my therapist this, but this is I guess this is when she said to me in therapy, that is the journey part of the journey for me to healing from trauma is that we are in this thing of like, what's wrong with me?

37:22Like what's, what's I'm, and then even then I had teachers saying, what's wrong with you? My mother saying, what's wrong with you? Other kids saying what's wrong with you? So like, I felt like something was wrong with me and like, I wasn't right. Um, and then it's then like, I get to a place of like, well, what happened to me? Like there's nothing wrong with me. I'm, I'm, I'm made in God's image or something, but what happened to And that is so complicated. There was a lot of things happened. I was, you know, um, my mother, bless her heart, was like, because of her own childhood trauma and stress, she got pregnant and didn't plan on having two kids.

38:02And then the sperm donor, I call him sperm donor, my father, like, never claimed us, never wanted us. And we were told to lie about that. My mother told us when we were, if kids ask or the teacher asks, say, your father died before you were born and you never knew him. And so I did that until I wrote this book. The whole time? Yeah. Wow. Out of respect for her. But like, think about being like five years old and like that's the lie you're told and then you just keep telling that lie. And then, obviously, I won't give this part away, but then we meet him for the first time when we were in third grade.

38:44And the only time. All these years he hasn't popped up? I heard about him. You know, you're gonna end up like deputy in jail and whatever. I heard about him and what a piece of shit he was. But I had never met him. According to my mother, he was a piece of shit. And based on his actions, based on your experience. Um, so just like a lot of shame, a lot of trauma, you know, other steps that have abuse, physical abuse, sex abuse, all like, it's just, uh, and it's, and it's, and I still, like, I guess, you know, I've never, I've never talked about this. I've alluded to this sex abuse, but I've never really talked about that publicly either.

39:36So to write about it, all these things, it's like... And a lot of it too is people assume if you're trans, like someone must have touched you or something like that. But I think hopefully people are smart and... Well, people aren't. People aren't. But now we know, if you study any of this stuff, that predators prey on kids who are already outcast, kids who already don't have support and are easier to sort of, because they're already alone and isolated. And I remember thinking for years that the sex abuse happened, that I was five years old and the sex abuse happened. But when I finally told my mother, I write about this in the book, and we calculated I had to be two years old.

40:22And I think for a lot of years, I blamed myself. I was like, what did I do to make, you know? And I was like, I was two, there was like, and when I, even in five, it wasn't my fault, but it definitely wasn't my fault at two. So carrying those thoughts around that I did something and that it was my fault. Even as an adult, and you're such like a, you've worked on yourself, you've done therapy, you've - Yeah. I just can't imagine that you could think as an adult you that child. Well, I think adult me had, it took a minute to formulate adult me. Even when I was like, when I turned 18 and turned 21, I was still in denial about, I would, you know, people people asking me about childhood, it was fabulous.

41:23Everything was fabulous. Everything was wonderful. By that time I had created this persona because I thought that's what I needed to do to be accepted and to be, so everything was fabulous and fine and wonderful. And it wasn't. And I got to a point when I couldn't be in that lie anymore. And it really, honestly, I had to deal with the gender stuff first. And when I started my medical transition in 1998, the anxiety I had around it, it was just a sense of relief. And it was the beginning of me, like, being able to tell the truth to myself. And so, like, that truth, like, was like, okay, so this, yeah, my childhood wasn't great.

42:07And I was terrified and I did feel unloved and unwanted. And unprotected, and not safe. And unprotected, for sure. Not all the things and overcompensated by making all A's and winning talent shows, is very drama, The Gifted Child, if people know that book. Like, I felt like I would be loved for what I did and what I could do, but not for who I am inherently. That I had to do something to be loved. Not that I was lovable because I just am. And that, realizing that, and then that's one thing. And then, like, finding a sense of actual worthiness because I'm a child of God and worthiness of love. That was years.

42:52That was years. And that can only really be healed in relationship to other people, particularly a therapist because it's part of its attachment theory. And then I did group therapy. And so some of the people in the group therapy helped a lot. And eventually some friends and a few romantic relationships helped, but more friends and group therapy. Wow. Because there's a difference between understanding something intellectually and then, to quote Morpheus from the first Matrix movie, there's a difference between knowing the path and walking it. And there was a point I remember years ago, I was at the doctor's office for something, and I was getting a little counseling.

43:39Um, it was getting old counseling. Um, and as you can tell, I'm, I can talk my ass off and I'm kind of smart, you know, you know, according to some people, but the doctor said, I can't wait for your core to catch up with your head that I can't wait for it. And that's what the therapy I've been doing for the past 10 years, the somatic therapy, because really when you're, it has to land in the body. Talk therapy is great, but it has a somatic means up in the body. it has to land in the nervous system because trauma lives in the body. So you could say all these things. You could say, you know, if I've experienced this and I blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

44:19And you can articulate all of the things that you're supposed to articulate. But actual healing. My body has to know it. And I need, because the hard wiring neurobiologically, the hard wiring is to pick the abusive man because he reminds me of the bullies. You were still doing that? For years until, when did I stop with the abuse? It was maybe 2011, 2012 was when I turned a corner for that. You were repeating this learned behavior as a child. Yeah. And Jennifer, my therapist, one of the things she said in therapy to me that just blew my wig back, She said trauma survivors turn alarm bells into dinner bells and dinner bells into alarm bells.

45:09Meaning, like, the heart wiring we have, it's like the threat we should run away from. But when you've survived trauma and you're trying to maybe make sense of your life, I think like the alcoholic ex I had in the early 2000s was so, he was the most abusive. He was my mother. I was like trying to make my mother love me by choosing someone like her. And I was like, I'm going to be amazing. with him. He's going to love me and that's going to cure all, like subconsciously. I didn't consciously think this, which is insane to say out loud. It's insane, but it's really kind of common. I think everybody, it's childhood trauma.

45:43It's different versions of childhood trauma. And then I realized, well, my mother's still alive. Maybe I can work on this with her, but that's, yeah, I did. I did. And she had, she has her limitations. I have to be real about it. She has her limitations and like, I think this is funny. But years after I came out to her as trans, she said, you know, like, maybe like seven years afterwards, she said, you know, I went to therapy for two years to deal with your transness. And I was like, wow. And in my mind, I'm thinking, girl, that's the least of your problems, my transness. And that's not to be shady.

46:21I just, but it's like, my grandfather grew up on a plantation. And he was beaten. And your grandmother was in an abusive relationship that was abused too. With him, with my grandfather, JP. But also she got married at 12 years old to flee a stepfather who was abusing her. I mean, women getting married at like 12, 13 in the South, and like the early 1900s was like standard. So she's fleeing as an abusive man and then gets into a relationship, Mary is a man who's way older than her. That's abusive. She's single. She has a couple kids. She gets her stuff together and then JP comes along. And so this is what my mother is born into.

47:05And that abuse that he learned on the plantation, he passed on to my grandmother and to his children, my mother, and that's what she passed on. And so like - Can you give her grace for that? Absolutely. When I learned all this, I was just, and then even things that I will never talk about that she endured in her life. It's amazing. My mother's amazing. She put her, with all that, she put herself through undergrad, graduate school. She bought her a house, paid for a house full out, raised two kids, you know, from nothing. Like, from nothing. And still a lot of unprocessed trauma, which makes me really sad.

47:48But I think that, like, it's just so much. so many women. Hi, it's Colin Coward from the Colin Coward podcast. All right. You know what deserves more attention? The assists. Everybody talks about the goal, a big moment that gets replayed on the highlight reels. But too often we overlook all the contributions and collabs that happen along the way. That's true in soccer and honestly true in life. Haleon is shining a light on the assists. An official partner of U.S. soccer, they got a whole lineup of brands ready to deliver for you. So here they are. Sensodyne, dentist recommended defense of your sensitive teeth.

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49:11pop culture takes, and there are no girls on the internet for all your tech news. For your favorite celebrity kikis, check out Outlaws with T.S. Madison. Wait, so Luke was the son of Vader, and Vader was turned by RuPaul? Yeah, well, somebody's heard of some old, old, old witch. Learn to love yourself unapologetically with BFF, Black Fat Fem, and start your day with intention with Waking Up With Ryan coming in July. Celebrate pride with the Outspoken Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Pride, and listen now. What did Black music, food, and culture teach us about who we were becoming?

49:512016 was sort of that last era of monoculture, where we still consumed things in community. From Beyonce and Rihanna. Everybody wanted to be Beyonce. I don't think we'll ever see another Rihanna. To soul food, memory, identity, and the stories we carry through Black culture. What does it mean to be Black and eat in America? So we were this group of people who knew how to work the land, who knew how to live with the land. We make it do what it do. Therapy for Black Girls is bringing together the conversation shaping Black life right now. You will never make me feel bad for being a Black girl, for being a Black American girl, ever.

50:28Therapy for Black Girls is bringing it all to the mic. Listen to Therapy for Black Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Here's something that should not be as complicated as it is. Getting a racist statue removed. And here's something that should be a whole lot easier than it is. Getting a new one put up in its place. As long as there's a politics of race in America, there's going to be a politics of remembering the Civil War. To get to school, I had to go down Robert E. Lee Boulevard. To get to the grocery store, I had to go down Jefferson Davis Parkway.

50:59If you're a historian and you leave out half of what the history is, you're not doing your job. I'm Akilah Hughes, and Rebel Spirit Season 2 goes deep on both of those things. The fights, the politics, the people who won, and my personal campaign to add something to the Kentucky Statehouse that's actually worth the wall space. We are more than our bodies. We contain essence. We contain spirit. How do you represent that? They are just fueling a fire that is really catching. You'll see what I mean. Listen to Rebel Spirit Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

51:38People, period. But so many Black women, my mom is in her 70s, they dealt with so much, especially in the South. And the depths of, like, misogyny and racism colliding is, like, it's kind of amazing that she's even still standing. It's remarkable. And she was single, four jobs, raising two kids. probably had no experience. I mean, I don't even think for them in their generation, even the word transgender was a, like, was she even, she couldn't wrap her brain around raising a transgender child or what that would require or what type of, I mean, you see now there's so many resources. I mean, this is weird talking.

52:24I mean, when I was eight years old and Ms. Ridgeway, it's like your son is going to end up and you want to wear a dress. We don't get into therapy right away. That was 1980. That's what they say. I was eight years old. That was 1980. And what did that do to you when you hear that? I mean, I told it like as a joke for a while, a lot of years. And then when I dug deep, that was some of the stuff I started remembering. Oh, God. That's some of the stuff I started remembering when I was writing the book. And that was like the turning point for me in my childhood, where like before that, I was just kind of free.

52:58I like danced around all the time and I was just myself. And after that, it was like... me fanning myself like Scarlett O 'Hara from Gone With the Wind in class started this whole family emergency and stressed my mother out. And I have to go to a therapist, and my mother can't even know how she can afford a therapist, and people are talking about her. And I was like, my mother didn't have time for a problem. She was trying to support two kids and make ends meet. She couldn't pay rent sometimes. She didn't have time for, I didn't have, so... I didn't want to be a problem. And all of a sudden, because I wanted to fan myself, like Scarlett O 'Hara, I was a problem.

53:46And I had to be fixed. And so that... So then I was like, okay, I'm gonna try, you know, that's when I started censoring myself and started trying to, like, rein in my mannerisms and just start looking at myself from the outside so I wouldn't... And present a certain way, probably. I did a terrible job of it. I can't imagine. I did a terrible job of it. But like, the shame. It was the shame that I am unworthy of connection and belonging because I am this way that's very natural for me. And so that was... It was awful. And talking to my brother about it, I mean, just the intellectual part of me.

54:29I think I go between emotion and intellect. That's why I talk too much and sometimes ramble. But my brother, years later, we talked about how that affected him. And for him, he was like, oh, I really need to butch up as much as possible. And because I was getting it from all sides. And what that taught him is that he really needed to to stay within the lines of gender and whatever. But then he also... Isn't that interesting, though, how your experience... This is your experience. I mean, this book is really your experience. You thread them, but even from their viewpoints... But then the resentment that he developed towards mother because of how she treated me.

55:21I think he doesn't talk to my mother still. and it's for his own reasons, but I think it feels like it's also partly how she treated me.

55:36And he's forgiven her, but he just feels like he doesn't need her in his life. And I just can never imagine not having my mother in my life. It's tough. You meet your parents where they are. Have you never thought about interjecting and trying to... I was caught in the middle for a really long time. And I feel like that was a lot of the dynamic in our family. And at a certain point, I had to draw a boundary and I had to be like, please don't ask me about him. Do you feel any guilt about that? No. I've learned not to feel guilt about taking care of myself. And this is what therapy has taught me.

56:17That drawing boundaries. Please tell me that again. I've learned to not feel guilt for taking care of myself. I don't have kids. That's just for whoever needs that. Boundaries of like, Brene Brown says, the most compassionate people are the most boundaried. And I feel that in my spirit, because I do feel like there's so much, I have so much love and grace for people. And I think that's because I have boundaries, girl. Good for you. I'm working on it. I'm working on mine. it's really hard what what so can i ask you what do you feel like you're struggling with in terms of boundaries i'm just learning them now because i i make excuses for people a lot because i have a compassionate person i also realize everybody is just a product for friends excuses for family everybody people and so i allow things to happen around people around me and i make excuses for people because oh they have this or oh they they just because they experience this that's why they're like that but then in the meantime you let that happen to you if you have people in your life and you allow certain behaviors you're kind of allowing that to happen to you even though you're it's you're framing it around giving people grace which i like to give people grace me too but that only works if you are conscious about the boundaries of how it affects you but another renee brown moment that's so iconic she was um doing a workshop with um this episcopal church in some of which she's a qualitative researcher.

57:48So she like based the research on people's lived experiences. And she asked the question in the group, like deacons and Episcopal ministers, do you believe people are doing the best that they can? And, or do you believe people are doing the best, doing everything they can to piss you off? And, you know, people were like, I'd like to believe people are doing the best they can. And then it was like, is there a person in your life who you think is just doing everything they can to piss you off write the person's name down and then um and then they write the everybody writes the person's name down now now can you imagine that this person's doing the very best that they can and then like a few people started crying bernie it's like why are you crying and like there was this husband and wife who wrote down the same person and it was um um there i think their daughter or niece or someone who into they had a daughter she was a drug addict and they were constantly giving her money, sending her to rehab to try to get her better.

58:46And it wasn't working. And they were just frustrated and angry and like just resentful. And Renee's like, if she's doing the best that she can, what then do you need to do? Then we can't give her any money anymore. If this is the best she can do, she's going to spend that money on drugs. I can't give her any money anymore. I can't keep investing my energy and time into her because she's going to continue to disappoint me and put us in painful situations. So if she's doing the best that she can, and we assume that people are doing the best she can, then that means I can't be in your life. If this is the best that you can do, I understand, but this is not good for me.

59:35This is going to trigger old patterns. this is going to have me twirling out. You have to take care of yourself. That's really, and so that's a place of compassion for them, but also for yourself. And it's not a mean thing, it's just a like, I can't pour from a empty cup. If I'm gonna be of service in the world, I have to fill up my cup and the overflow is for everyone else. And I can't fill up my cup if I have people in my life that are draining me and sucking me dry and have me in resentment and anger. Mm-hmm. Word. So with great boundaries, I can be more compassionate. I'm gonna take that with me today.

1:00:15Thank you. By the way, the what's wrong with me part of the book, I think all of us should take this time in our life to, even if you don't write a full book, write a few chapters on that part of your life. Because how you talk about how the what's wrong with me period informed some of the men you dated, informed how you're managing your mom and your relationship with your brother now. Kind of everything. It kind of informs everything. First of all, there's so many. I mean, you talk about suicide attempt, abuse, bullying, even the moment. I mean, there's a page in here I had marked it about you going through puberty.

1:00:56And I can only imagine. We were talking about this before in the back. You know, when you're 13 years old and you're straight, I don't, I'm not thinking about my sexuality as a kid. I wasn't thinking about sexuality either. I was called an F word, a sissy from my first interactions with kids. That's what I mean, that you were forced to look at sexuality. But for me, I don't think it was actually about sex when I was three years old and when I was five years old. I think it was about me being feminine, right? And because people conflate gender and gender identity and sexuality, because I was a very feminine kid, that's why they called me the sissy and the f-word and queer, all the things.

1:01:39But didn't that force you to think about it sooner than maybe you would have? Because of other people's kind of... So initially, it was like these kids... I don't have time for these kids, but also, like, the irony of my life is that when I was a kid, the other kids call me a girl. And when I transitioned, people call me a man. And, but that's, that's the truth. And then like, even there were so many trans women, when I posted that, they were like, that was my experience too. So it's, it was about my gender expression that I was a very feminine child. And because I was assigned male at birth, they said, let's see, they said F word, they said queer.

1:02:19And so like, for me, I, I didn't even know what these were. The first time I heard these words, I didn't know what they were. How does a three-year-old and five-year-old know what a sis, I knew it wasn't good. They weren't saying it with love. It was not a good thing. And then I just was like, screw them. But I also knew that I was a girl too. But I also knew that people were telling me I was a boy. So I'm aware now that as an adult, that awareness made me question everything from a really early age. And like, and that's a good thing. Is it a good thing? Questioning like what people are telling you.

1:03:01Like when you know something about yourself and you know something to be true, and then people are telling you the opposite, it's like... I just feel like maybe it forces you to grow up faster than you should be forced to. I certainly didn't feel like a child when I was a child. And a lot of my, um, I still need to give myself play time and still need to give myself like, give my inner child like, yeah. Yeah, I definitely did not. I was not a child when I was a child. Yeah, for sure. That makes me sad for you, or for children in that situation. It is what it is. I mean, that's my life. But it's never too late to have a happy childhood.

1:03:41You know, that's one of the things that I learned in therapy, but it's true. Like years ago, a therapist was like, you know, your mother didn't allow you to have dolls, buy yourself a Barbie and play with her and dress her. And I was just like, I can do that. And I was like, yeah. And I was like, and I did and I have, and it's awesome. And now I have a Laverne Cox Barbie from Mattel. Yeah. Which is pretty awesome. I love that. The first trans person to have a Mattel Barbie doll. So it's, so you can, that's, and that's for me, one of the biggest lessons maybe from the book that I want to, there's so many things I want to say to people, but like I, as a child, I was defenseless.

1:04:20I was not responsible. I couldn't consent. But once I'm an adult, I'm responsible for my life. I'm responsible for how I respond to my childhood, for the situations that I put myself in. I am responsible. So I... To heal? To heal. Yes, this happened to me because my mother did this, and this person abused me, and all these things happened. But I'm an adult now, and I'm responsible for my life, and I have to take accountability for my life and responsibility for it. There are systemic things that are... That's real, but that's what's my 50%. What can I control? And so like, yeah, all these things happen, but I don't have to be defined by them.

1:05:02And another part of healing from trauma is like, a lot of trauma survivors are overly defi - Either they deny the trauma happened, which is what I did for a really long time, or once they acknowledge it, they're overly defined by it. But building trauma resilience is like, this happened, and it's in the proper place in your timeline. Cause like usually, cause the nervous system doesn't know trauma happened 20 years ago, so once triggered, the nervous system experiences that is happening right now, which is great for acting, terrible for real life. So terrible, really terrible for real life. That's why you're a great actress.

1:05:34But you get it in the right timeline in your life so that this happened, but I'm not defined by this thing that happened to me. I'm not defined by that. I'm defined by the choices I make and by my resilience and how I rewrite the story. Good for you. Yeah. Second part. What happened to me is the second part where there's reflection now. You're like, hey, wait a minute. Some of this shit wasn't right. And then you're course correcting or you're at least trying to course correct or grab hold of your own life. The beginnings of that. You come to New York. It's kind of like that moment, right? coming to New York in the 90s.

1:06:21Oh my God. As like what, 20, 21, 21 years old. 1993. By the way, New York at that time, there were the gay clubs in New York at that time. You're a native, are you a native New Yorker? I'm a native New Yorker. I was in the streets in the 90s, so. Do you disclose your age? Are you the same age? Yeah, I'm 55. I'm 54 tomorrow. Okay, so what I'm telling you is I was in New York. Now I'm straight, but I know I was in the gay clubs too in the 90s, because the gay clubs in the 90s were all the good parties. I feel like the parties were all integrated. That's what I mean. It was a time. A time was being had.

1:06:58Limelight, when I arrived in 1993, Limelight Disco 2000 on Wednesdays, it was all the bridge and tunnel, like straight folks, and then like the club kids and drag queens. Everybody parties together in the 90s. Like, I'm Cafe Con Leche. Oh, Cafe Con Leche, girl. That's a whole nother book. Cafe con leche, girl! But everybody, literally, Joey Roland, who was one of the party promoters, did a song called The Gays, The Straight, Bisexuals, Transsexuals, We're Here, We're All Here. Cafe con Leche, it moved several different locations, but everybody partied together. Yeah, no, I know. I was in those parties.

1:07:35I remember. That's why it was the time in New York. The club scene in New York was amazing at that time. What a wonderful time to be in New York, right? What a wonderful time to be in New York. But also, especially if you're... You hadn't transitioned yet at that time. So you're a young man at that time. Well, I would say I was gender non-conforming. When I moved to New York, I started wearing, when I went to boarding school, when I was at the Alabama School of Fine Arts, I started wearing women's and girls' clothes, my I color, my Salvation Armani. Not a dress, because I was terrified of ending up in New Orleans wearing a dress, but I started wearing culottes and bell bottoms, and I started wearing makeup and shaving my brows and wearing lashes every day.

1:08:13So like that evolved. And so by the time I moved to New York, I had a lash on every day. I had a shaved head. I would draw in my brows. I had a beat face, you know, every day. And I had my very androgynous. We call it gender nonconforming now. But when I arrived in New York, I was gender nonconforming and had my look. And I was rocking it. And I was harassed in the street during the day. But at nighttime, I would go to Limelight, and they let me right in. I go to Webster Hall, they let me right in. Flamingo East, all the spots. So it was like, when the night fell, I was a celebrity, I was a star.

1:08:50I was like, the reason, the party, that the club kids, like, if they weren't club kids at your party, it wasn't a party, right? Of course. So it was a wonderful thing to be celebrated. Yes, girl. It was a wonderful thing to be celebrated for something I was bullied for. And still, you know, harassed for on the street during the day, but at night, it was magical. And I would imagine a lot of that. Hi, it's Colin Coward from the Colin Coward podcast. Every goal starts with an assist. As official partners of U.S. soccer, this team is ready to deliver. Sensodyne, dentist recommended defense of your sensitive teeth.

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1:12:27You'll see what I mean. Listen to Rebel Spirit Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:12:58So it was a time to be in New York and to be in that scene. It was a time to birth you. Yeah. And kind of give you wings to become... Yeah. I came here feeling like, I'm like, oh, my people are there. I always knew New York, even before I knew anything about Club Kids, I knew it was New York. The second I discovered Fame, that TV show and movie from the 80s, I was like, New York, that's where I'm the end of TV. Like, I remember. Yeah, eight years old. I would have been eight, nine years old when fame came up. Did you have an understanding at that time that there was room for somebody? Because while you said there was RuPaul and there was some represent - RuPaul was in the 90s, but all you're talking about - Later, but I'm just saying representation was scarce.

1:13:49For sure. You know what I'm saying? Especially trans representation. We didn't see that on a mainstream scale. Were you already starting to understand the idea that you could be that? That you could actually change things? Honestly, I think about when Boy George and Culture Club became, they were huge in the early 80s. And I was like, okay. And then there was like, all this crazy androgyny, even on Soul Train. If you look at old clips of Soul Train from the 80s. That's true, you're right. The stuff that got through. I'm just thinking about all the homophobic rappers looking at the old Soul Train acts, to Shemaine Stewart being on Soul Train.

1:14:24We don't have to take our clothes off, remember Jemaine Stewart? Big ol' queen with that, you know, underpressed out hair, laid. But like, girl, like gay. Like just some gay stuff was happening on Soul Train. And it just, it was the 80s though. And it was just kind of like, I mean, people like, Prince was around and like people thought Liberace was straight, you know? So it was just a different time. Which is so fabulous. So I just, I believed, I didn't think about, the interesting thing is I didn't think about like, I was aware, obviously I was aware I was Black, but I didn't think about these things as hindrances.

1:15:03I just, I felt like there was something inside me and I was a star and I was talented and that I should be a star. People like always remembered me. I had a presence, you know, obviously that needs to be cultivated into, you know, training, with training. But I just always believed that I should be a star. And then I think as I, when I transitioned and then I like really started existing in trans community and hearing experiences from other trans people, and then like, yes, I've been harassed in the street my whole life, and bullied and stuff, but like, I was just programmed to succeed. I was programmed to believe that I was supposed to be successful.

1:15:46Um... Mm, wow. Yeah, and the world certainly. And then there was a period in the 90s, even, you know, I just remember when I worked at coffee shop, you remember coffee shop. Of course, it's still there, by the way. No, no, no. They... They just closed? No, it closed in 2018. Really? It was... The coffee shop is still there? On 14th Street? I'm 16 in Union Square West, because I worked there for 10 years. They closed in 2018. I remember I was really sad. Is there a new one in its place? It's a Chase Bank. It's a Chase Bank now. It's really sad. It's really sad. Oh, I'm thinking the cafeteria. Oh, cafeteria.

1:16:20Coffee shop did close down. Correct. I do remember coffee shop. Wow. So yeah, when I worked at coffee shop, people would come in and I would like, get like, oh, come in model for this or come and do the, I would get like opportunities working there. I remember like even I was doing runway coaching for someone in the 90s, like these twins, they were these party promoters who were twins from Africa. I forget their names. They had me like teaching girls how to model for some fashion show. So you were just like already that girl. I was just, I was in New York and I was, there were, there were just kind of opportunities for people who were different, who were drag queens or ginger nonconforming or club kids.

1:17:02There was just, there were places to work like coffee shop. You could, at least you could work. Yeah. At least you can go and have, get a legit job if you were lucky. And I was one of the lucky ones who was able to like, you know, go to coffee shop and wait tables for 10 years and then and Lucky Chang. I would have loved to have seen you in coffee shop. I would have loved to go in. I used to do Runway Down the Aisles and it was a time in the, I didn't even write about celebrities who used to come in a coffee shop. I'm waiting on Wanda Sykes, Tyrese. Q-Tip was a regular. I was there with Q-Tip one time.

1:17:32That's a story for another day. Queen Latifah. Queen Latifah used to come in to get, she always ordered food to go. She had a guest, we had a recording studio because I worked the graveyard. She had a recording studio, I think in England Square. She would always come in. and she'd have a fly posse, a fly women. And she was always super sweet and she would order her food to go. Like it was a great, the Grace Jones story. A lot of things that did not make it to the book. But there's a lot of things in the book, which if we had more time today, we would go down many rabbit holes. And the third, just real quick before we wrap.

1:18:02Of course. The third part of the book is what's right with me, which is the most inspiring because it's like, yes, you go through those things. And yes, I have to deal with all the shit I went through. But like, man, I did so many things right. I did things right. You represented it in a way that nobody else had. Thank you. You just got a lot of things right. What is the number one thing that you think you got right? Well, I wouldn't say got right. What was it? What was what I always had was a sense of when I didn't believe in myself, I was deeply passionate about art and performing. and for years people were like how do I get more confident like you I was like I've never been confident but I have had you fake it well but it's not even faking it it's the passion and the love when I'm passionate you see them you're sitting here talking to me when I'm excited about something when I'm passionate about something it takes over and so the love and the passion for performing for um learning for getting better at what I do that just that overcame all the other stuff because I was just so, I wanted to learn, I wanted to perform, and I wanted more.

1:19:18And I thought, why not? I just remember for years, when I, you know, watching reality shows and like watching the real world and watching something like, what would it be like if a trans person were on this show? Why isn't a trans person on this show? And then eventually I was on one of those shows. So it was like, it was having a vision. It was looking around and being like, I can do this and I should be doing this."

1:19:46And seeing it for myself first, Colman Domingo kind of recently said, he was talking about teaching an acting class and a plus-size girl had come in and done a monologue from Fat Pig, this Neil LaBrute play. And Colman's like, why did you choose that? She was like, well, I'm heavy and I thought that would be a good monologue for me to go out in the world. And he was like, when I saw you, I saw Juliette. I saw Anangeneu. And he was encouraging her to see herself differently. And he had to see for himself as an actor that he could be a leading man, that there were other things that he could do. And so a lot of it was the vision and understanding of what I believed I could do and still believe I can do that I haven't had the opportunity to do yet.

1:20:36and you have to see it first. You have to have the vision first. So I've always, for whatever reason, had that vision that I can be, you know, when I was fanning myself as like Scarlett O 'Hara, yes, there was Butterfly McQueen and, you know, Hattie and Me Daniel, but I was Scarlett O 'Hara. Not that I wanted to be a white woman, but I wanted to be the main character. I wanted to be the object of desire and, you know, this hero's journey and arc. And yeah, so at 54, I still have a lot of work to do. Yeah, but you've done so much. You must be, are you not proud of your accomplishments? You have to be.

1:21:15I am. I am. And I, and I, and it, partly because it was, it's so improbable that it could happen. But what, um, I, my career shows has shown that it's possible when you, when they, when they're, when you look at my resume, I mean, I said the first trans person to be nominated for a prime time, maybe first trans person to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all the things. Because it hadn't been done before, but I was the first, but I'm not the last. And that really is the thing that I'm proudest of. Because now other trans people see it, there's the possibilities there, and it can happen. And they're making it happen, which is incredible.

1:21:52This is going to be perfect and really hard for you, because it's a speed round. before we go we're going to give you a speed round of IRL questions directors love me I can take direction so speed round beat round

1:22:09what do you like most about yourself

1:22:14in real life

1:22:19I I'm cute and adorable I think I'm really adorable and And I really work hard to treat people well. What is your superpower? Empathy. Nice. I am no longer available for?

1:22:44People, places, and things that would allow me to betray myself. I am no longer apologizing for?

1:22:56Anything. Heard you. I didn't realize I was strong until.

1:23:06Until I stepped back and took a look at what I endured. How often do you think about your legacy? What would you like that to be? Whenever I think about this, I always think about what Maya Angelou said to Oprah, when Oprah said, this school in Africa is going to be my legacy. And Maya Angelou says, my dear, you have no idea what your legacy will be. Your legacy is every person you touch. So I know what I want to leave behind in terms of a body of work, but that really spoke to me, what Maya Angelou said. I think when I meet people whose lives have been changed because of my visibility, my work, I'm like, that is, yeah.

1:23:48Cause it's the people you would touch that like, you know, when you're not famous, you know, there's so many people in the trans community who aren't never famous, but their names are carried on because they touch people's lives. So. What is the one thing that allies can do better to be supportive of the trans community? What do we get wrong? One thing. What do we get wrong and what can we do better?

1:24:14I think it's about listening more than you speak. And whenever possible, elevating the lived experiences and the voices of real trans people. We can speak for ourselves. We can advocate for ourselves. We just need the platform to do it. And when you see, just like when people, if you see racism happening in front of you, or you see transphobia happening in front of you, say something. With love, you can say, like with love, that's not cool. Start there? Yeah. That's not cool. So if you have an opportunity to elevate trans stories, because our stories re-humanize us, and the dehumanization that creates a permission structure to take away rights and commit violence against people.

1:25:04That's what we're in now. The Lemkin Center that studies genocide says we're on a trans people in America on a slow course towards genocide because of this administration. And genocide can only happen through dehumanization. So we rehumanize by connecting with people's stories and their lived experiences. It's hard to dehumanize someone when you sit here and you're real. I would hope. I would hope, too. That's my hope for the world, that I would hope that. Hey, guys, you ever sign up for a phone plan thinking, wow, what a great price? And then a few months later, it's like, surprise, your bill is higher.

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1:26:24Okay, our voicemail before you go, come on. We have a segment, it's called voice note. Voice note and then one question and put the ball and you're gone. And then we're out of here and we're almost on time, I believe. Hi Laverne, I'm Joey and my question for you is, when you close your eyes and imagine you have a day off, how do you decide to clean out? Love you and thank you for everything that you do for the community. Queen out, is that a real term? I thought of cleaning out in different terms. So the question is how on my off days, what do I do to queen out? between out i've never i'm learning new terms today i was exhausted from that list of things i was like okay massage facial and then you go to the club too like that's that's a relaxing day i i work so much when i get a day off i a lot of times it's sleep it's i've been binging i've been binging shows i just watched the boys finally and binge that i love just binging out on tv and i I rewatched a lot of stuff.

1:27:21I rewatched Scandal like a few times recently. And I love just being at home by myself, like - Quiet queen. A quiet child queen. It's a quiet, because my work, I'm queening out of my work. Yeah. Right? All day, every day. Like all day, every day in different ways. So like, everybody should have joy. But my joy is really, it's my girlfriend's, it's community. I love trans people. We're so amazing. What do you tell me the best thing about the trans community? Being part of it that we'll never understand, I don't even get to experience. I mean, you know, every community has issues. But the best of us though, like my girls, my girls are smart, insightful, resilient, anointed.

1:28:08Like what people should know and understand, I used to think gender 101 should be a cool curriculum at university. The gender binary model is a Western European construct. Indigenous cultures all over the world have like, they move even in Africa, like they move beyond male, female. There've been like in India, they had the hijra who were like this third gender, um, mahu in Hawaii, all over the world. Indigenous cultures had third gender and two-spirit and different Native Native American tribes, and who we would think of as trans people. And those hijra, like the hijra would bless your wedding and bless the christening of a child.

1:28:51We were spiritual leaders in so many of these indigenous cultures. And I feel that inside of me. And a lot of the trans people I know who are in touch with their light have a spirituality and a wisdom that if we just listened, we could learn so much. So I think that's the anointed spirituality. And I think what really comes down to for me and my transness, it's spiritual. Like, it's so funny. There's like all of the, yes, medically transitioning was necessary for me. Gender affirming care saved my life. It saves children's lives. But like, what it allowed was the spiritual awakening. And all my friends say the same thing, my closest friends.

1:29:44Being trans is a very spiritual thing. And that's, I mean, that's amazing. Because when you're in the spirit, girl, when Oprah used to do that, like, remembering your spirit at the end of the Oprah show, when you're in the spirit, like in church, you get the spirit, you're in the spirit. Like, you want to tap your feet. You want to like, you're connected to like, to the energy of power, a source that's greater than yourself. And like, we at our best, we as trans people have that. Hey guys, support for this podcast is brought to you by Walden University. Have you ever thought to yourself, what if I could go after what I actually want and I could really make a difference?

1:30:27Well, you are not alone. And this is exactly why I want to tell you about Walden University. For over 50 years, Walden has helped working adults like you get the W with the knowledge, the skills, and everything you need to build the future that you want. And you can make a difference where it matters most. If you've been waiting for the right moment, this is it. Head to waldenu.edu and take that first step. Walden University, set a course for change. Certified to operate by Shiv. All right, it's time for our bowl, our questions from the IRL Bowl presented by Walden University. You want to pick or you want me to pick?

1:31:02Um, why don't you pick? You pick your, um, your... You pick one. Okay. Or I'll close my eyes. Okay, close your eyes. Take that one and this one and then we'll go. Okay. And I'm... Am I starting? Yeah, you go. Duh-duh-dum. Lately, I've been reminding myself that... health is wealth. Mm. This is getting older. This is the getting older thing. I know. And just like, health is wealth. that I can't do anything. If my health fails me, then I'm... I know. And it's only when it goes down that you realize it and you appreciate it and you pray for it. But it's something that I need to daily, you know, take care of myself.

1:31:40And that's loving myself too. That's funny. What do you pray for most?

1:31:50God, give me permission to do this imperfectly and allow me to be of service. That's the prayer I say most often. Ooh, say that again. That's good. God, give me permission to do this imperfectly and allow me to be of service. I started doing it when I was doing a lot of speaking engagements, and I'm so hard on myself, and I was just like, I'm not gonna be perfect. And then I was also like, the first trans person a lot of people would encounter, and I was like, I can't screw this up. And I was like, I'm not gonna be perfect, but maybe I can be of service. I know I'm gonna make a mistake. I know I'm gonna mess up.

1:32:26I'm so good. So. There it is. That's the final question. If God were to text you right now, what would it say? What would the text say? If God were to text me right now, what would it say?

1:32:48Don't worry. I got you. just turn it over to me.

1:32:59Laverne Cox in real life, everybody!

1:33:06Girl. Girl. I need it, I need it, yeah. I'm gonna miss the text I need. I'm gonna just try to let that... Let that download a little bit. Thank you for today. That was beautiful.

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1:34:24These are brands that are ready to deliver your essential wellness assists, because every goal starts with an assist. Learn how Halion can assist your game day goals at halionassist.com. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.