S06.EP09 - Coaching for Brand Builders: Guide Clients to Clarity Without Burning Out

0:00It's really great to start noticing how much you want to give advice. Most of us don't even realize just how relentlessly we leap to the answer and we think that that's what the other person is asking for. It is surprising how many situations don't have somebody going, what I'm hoping for here is your advice. Mostly they want your encouragement, being seen, being helped, and you can do that with questions and thank you as long as.

0:31Hello and welcome to Just Branding, the only podcast dedicated to helping designers and entrepreneurs grow brands. Here are your hosts, Jacob Kass and Matt Davies.

0:49All right, before we jump in, if you're serious about mastering branding and building a thriving creative business, the Brand Builders Alliance is for you. Inside, you'll get live masterclasses, mentorship from our eight resident coaches, a stacked resource vault, and a global network of brand builders who actually get it. If you're done winging it alone and are ready to scale with structure, support, and serious momentum, head over to joinbba.com and get on the wait list. That's joinbba.com. Now let's get into the show. Hello and welcome to Just Brand In. Today's guest is someone we've been wanting to have on the show for a long time.

1:30His name is Michael Bangay-Stanier, or MBS as is known by many. He's the author of The Coaching Habit, which was an absolute game changer for me. The Advice Trap, How to Begin and How to Work with Almost Anyone. His work has helped leaders, teams and creatives get better results by saying less, listing more and leading with intention. In this episode we're digging into a powerful idea how coaching can be a superpower for brand builders. So whether you're a designer leading strategy sessions, a consultant guiding clients or a creative looking to level up this conversation is all about how coaching can help you show up with more clarity, ask better questions and build stronger relationships without burning out.

2:16We'll get into why giving advice isn't always the best move how to handle tricky client dynamics and how shifting from being the doer to being the guide can actually transform your work so let's jump in here's our conversation with the one and only michael bungay stanier welcome to the show welcome yeah thank you look i'm super happy to be here i've been in this world of being brand building of being a a vendor a consultant on the other side of the table so a lot of what I want to talk about actually comes from all the mistakes I made and the scar tissue I have and the learnings I took around just that my advice is not always as good as I think it is and sometimes asking a good question can make all the difference.

3:00Absolutely and I got so much for that from your book The Coaching Habit which we'll tuck into in a moment just before we tuck into that we're having a conversation off air about how many books we had of michael's um so we're just showing them up on screen here i love that show me all the books you've got wait no he's just saying you've only got one of my books just one jacob is literally five times the man you are matt and i'm not talking about beards here i'm talking about book ownership i i have failed miserably because i've got the coaching habit jacob's got about 10 books he's holding up if you can see so i i feel ashamed um however i would say that this book the coaching habit i have i have really appreciated and i thought it was quite interesting like the first question that you recommend you know what's on your mind so what's on your mind michael what's what are you thinking well if i'm honest part of what i'm thinking about is what's for dinner because i'm all coming to different time zones you know jacob's in australia which is where i i'm originally from so that's uh what 14 hours ahead of of here you're in wales which is five or six hours ahead of me.

4:04So we're all in different time zones catching up. But here, it's evenings falling, dusk is coming. My wife is cooking something in the kitchen over there. So I'm enjoying this conversation, but also looking forward to having a meal with her later on. That's precisely what's on my mind right now. Fair enough. That's an honest truth. All right, well, let's talk into your story a little bit more. We want to know who Michael is. So in your own words, can you let us know a little bit about Michael, how he came into coaching, why it's such a big part of your mission yeah if i'm known at all i'm best known for this book the coaching habit so about nine years old and it's become the best-selling book on coaching or really it's the best-selling book on how to be more coach-like because i'm actually not trying to convince people to be a coach i'm trying to make this technology useful to everybody because it's a really powerful everyday technique but you know they say inspiration is when your past suddenly makes sense.

4:58So this kind of culminating moment of writing The Coaching Habit, you kind of rewind it and you can kind of see the story in my back past. So I'm Australian, grew up in Canberra, which as Jacob would know, you get mocked by every other Australian for growing up in Canberra, because it's the national capital and it's the government town. Everybody goes, oh, Canberra, you loser. But I love growing up in Canberra. I went to high school there. I went to uni there, at Australian National University, did a degree in literature and a degree in law. Literature I loved and I was pretty good at it and I kind of crushed that.

5:34Law, not so much. I literally finished my law degree being sued by one of my law professors for defamation. So that really wasn't going that well. And I was saved from becoming a lawyer by winning a Rhodes Scholarship, a fantasy scholarship over to England. So not only did I not become a lawyer, good for the legal profession and great for me, but I also met my wife studying at Oxford. And that was 30 plus years ago now. So I did a master's degree in literature at Oxford. And so I'm now in my mid-20s and still not on any idea whatsoever about what I wanted to do with my life. I knew I didn't want to become an academic.

6:12I knew I didn't want to become a lawyer, but it wasn't obvious what I did want to become. and so my first job at a university I stumbled into this small agency it was an innovation agency and this is in the mid-90s so nobody really knew what innovation was I'm trying to explain it to my family they're like we don't understand what you're doing and it was a brilliant first job in many ways because these guys were kind of all up on the the maverick thing so they're like no don't because I used to sew my own clothes long hair earrings and they're like we like that you're weird so just keep keep doing that that was great at the same time we didn't have a whole lot of success in actually launching products you know i can now say that i had a small role in stuffed crust pizza for pizza hut and i also invented a or helped invent a single malt whiskey that is being described on whiskey.com as the worst single malt whiskey ever invented i got to this point going look you know what i don't want to die with those being the two career highlights in my life.

7:15I need to go find something else to do. What that work had taught me was how to run a focus group, how to sit with people and ask questions and be curious. And in fact, at university, I'd done crisis counseling. So, you know, young people having a tough time, mental health issues, suicide, and I'd been trained in sitting and listening and asking questions. And now I can see that these were really foundational moments for me about learning the power of asking a question, being present to the answer, not assuming that the first answer was the right answer. And these are all things that come up in the Coaching Havoc book.

7:54So I moved from this innovation company. I moved into change management because I was like, why do none of our good ideas survive to see the light of day? And that took me from the UK, London, where I was living then, to Boston, worked in Boston for a while. Finally, I was like, okay, I'm done with this. I'm going to head up to Canada, the great white North. I lined up a job, but my flight out of Boston was on 9-11. So that all went haywire. So out of necessity, because my job didn't exist anymore, I started my own company and I was also becoming increasingly unemployable. And that was 20, 20 some years ago, 22, 23 years ago.

8:34And after a certain amount of time where my only business plan was to find somebody with a wallet and try and persuade them to give me some money. I cottoned on to this idea of coaching being powerful and I trained as a coach and I loved it and I was also deeply irritated by it because on the one hand I could see the power of what it meant to be present to somebody, to ask them a question, to help them figure some stuff out on their own. On the other hand it drove me nuts that coaching came with all this baggage. It was a woo-woo. It was caftans. It was incense. It was touchy-feely. It was HR.

9:12And I was like, you know, I've got a drive to try and make coaching feel like a regular, everyday technology that normal people can use. And I started training. I started teaching people around that. And then that culminated in a coaching habit book nine years ago. Since then, I've written some other books as well. but that's the that's the broad sweep of the story what are your other books about michael because i as you know i've got the coaching habit but you know i i i wasn't that i've got to be honest before you know we started talking i wasn't that familiar with with any of your other work so it'd be great perhaps other folks are like me give us a flavor so there's one type of audience i help which are people who work with other people so the the coaching habit is this book to unweird coaching.

9:57The Advice Trap, which is like a sister book to the coaching habit, is all about kind of a deeper dive into how do you tame your advice monster, that driving force you have to kind of want to jump in and offer up ideas and suggestions and opinions. And then my most recent book for managers and leaders and individual contributors is How to Work with Almost Anyone, which is all about how do you build better working relationships with people, because your working relationships with your clients, with your boss, with your team, determine your happiness and success. And most people don't actively do much about that.

10:32They just cross their fingers and they hope for their best. So that's kind of one cluster of books. And then there's another cluster of books, which is helping people figure out what they want to do with their lives. So the book, How to Begin, is all about how do you find your worthy goal, something that is thrilling and important and daunting for you that you can kind of go right here's the next the next big thing for me to work on and uh the most recent book i published is called the do something that matters journal so it's a journaling process to support the quest to go find a life that matters amazing thank you for sharing i had a follow-up question with your story because you said you were trained as a coach i'm curious on where you got trained or who trained you just like So there's a number of great coaching schools around.

11:18I went with one called CTI or the Coach Training Institute. And they're one of the more established ones. And, you know, I actually built a coaching practice and then went to my surprise. This isn't actually what I want to be doing. I don't like coaching enough. I find it a bit restrictive. You know, I like actually the creative act. I like creating content. I like connecting with people. I like being on a stage in front of an audience. so having built a coaching practice and gone this is it finally i've reached the the destination i've been working towards for 25 years i was like this is not the destination shut it down and figure out other things to do so you know my my world now is i've got a training company that's run by a team and they support big companies like microsoft and salesforce and gucci to make their cultures There's more coach-like a business, which is about helping people in midlife figure out the next big thing.

12:14And a new project called Change Signal, which is about helping people understand organizational change. So that sucks a little less. Amazing. Well, thank you for sharing that background. I'd love to get into the coaching side of things now. And we often start with definitions on the show. So I'd love to hear how you define coaching and perhaps how it's different from mentoring or consulting. Yeah. Well, it's a good question because there's a bazillion definitions of coaching. Everyone's kind of heard of it. And we're like, I'm not quite sure what we're talking about. Everybody who's selling coaching has their own definition of coaching.

12:49People might have heard of sports coaches and it's like, it's the same as sports coaching. There's executive coaching, there's life coaching. How are these things related, if at all? But for me, it is about a very everyday behavior. And it is simply this. Can you stay curious a little bit longer? Can you rush to action and advice giving a little bit more slowly? Because most people are advice giving maniacs. They're like, somebody starts talking and after about 30 seconds, you're like, I already know the answer. I'm now pretending to listen. I've got my fake active listening mode on just waiting to add value to this conversation by telling them what I've already decided.

13:30And this superpower of actually staying curious just a little bit longer, and I'm not talking a week longer or a day longer, I'm talking like 90 seconds longer, can actually revolutionize the experience of a conversation. And then how it's related to something like mentoring, Jacob. Well, you know, mentoring, broadly speaking, is somebody who's walked a similar path to you, and it's just a little bit ahead of you, like a year or a decade going, you know, I've got some stories and I've got some wisdom and I've got some understanding of this landscape that you may not have. And the very best mentors I know also are powerful questioners because they know that when you ask a question and you help people figure it out themselves, that's a wisdom that lands in a much deeper way.

14:18So whereas with coaching, you can stay curious a little bit longer with anyone. You don't have to have had particular subject matter expertise to kind of assume that role with them and the last one just consulting just so we got broad definitions for each of them yeah well it's you hear my bias in all of this which is like you know what a good consultant is somebody who asks questions same with like being a good salesperson you know a good person who's in sales is somebody who asks questions now a consultant is often somebody going oh i'm hiring a consultant because they have the answer but a great consultant will feel the need to kind of present a solution if that's the agreement that they have with their with their client but what they'll know is when a client goes hey here's my problem that's almost certainly not the problem that's just their first go at trying to express the problem and way too many consultants and i've been one of these consultants have generated you know, PowerPoint decks with detailed explanations and outstanding answers to solve the wrong problem because we fell for the illusion that the presenting problem is the actual problem.

15:31So I guess you could say if it's like a music mixing board, each one of these have different levels of advice giving, of subject matter expertise, and of curiosity. my stand would be the more curious you are with all of them particularly in the first part of the interaction the more powerful and more useful and more on point your answers and solutions will be when you actually get to them 100 i often obviously do a bit of consulting myself and i think you know you you are always presented with the problem you know in the outset in the initial sales discussions actually but you know before you've you've even sort of been hired it's like can you come and help us with this and I and I always make that point like you said there Michael when I'm talking to people because I always say look you know it very well may be that that that as you've you know you've described things that that is the problem but look think of me like a doctor right if you went to the doctor and he said I've got a broken leg right the doctor doesn't just go oh okay and wrap you in plaster the doctor says let's just it's just diagnose that first let's just double check that let's go for a scan first and and then once we've established that we will then uh you know patch it up um and that's that should be the good a good role and that comes with curiosity and asking questions as you say that's right and even if the thing they're talking about is an issue it may not be the issue exactly um because uh you know i've been on both sides of the table where I've got people to solve something for me that has been a thing that I wanted to solve, but it hasn't been the big thing that's actually going to make the real difference to my company or my business or whatever else might be framing that up.

17:19So part of the great gift of a consultant is a willingness to say, look, I am going to really help you figure out what the real challenge is because advice is never, never as cheap as it is now. I mean, honestly, anything, you know, chat GPT knows better than you and in a more succinct way than you. And often with better references than you, cause you've actually half-arsed it and you can't even quite, quite remember what the actual solution is. So if you think your, your idea and your content and your answer is you know unique and valuable and differentiated i reckon you're fighting a losing battle on that but your curiosity and your ability to help people actually figure out for themselves what the real challenge they might be facing that that is something special absolutely well let's get in the practical side of things now how we can actually use coaching as a as a superpower you've done a lot of podcasts on the coaching habit and the seven questions inside so we're not going to go through all those questions you can get access to that in the book and many other podcasts but what do you find the most powerful question out of those seven well context is everything so in some ways the most powerful question is what's most going to be most helpful for the person in front of me right now you know because coaching is an act of service and an act of empowerment you're like i'm i am trying to be helpful for you or and or you know particularly if you're coaching somebody on your team i am trying to invite you to step forward and assume responsibility and accountability and kind of capacity for this challenge that we're talking about so what's the most useful question just depends a little bit on what's going on but if If we're springboarding off that rant I just had around whatever you think, if your first idea is not going to be the right idea, the first challenge is not the right challenge.

19:22That question that you've already heard me say, which is, so what's the real challenge here for you? That's a really powerful question. And I'll break it down and I get kind of nerdy about it. You could ask somebody, what's the challenge here? And, you know, as creators, people probably ask that question a thousand times. And what's the challenge here is okay. But just listen how different it is when you guys say, what's the real challenge here? Because that actually shifts it to say, look, there's a bunch of things going on. What do you think the real challenge is? And my bet is that most of the time people are going to stop and go, oh, yeah, what is the real challenge?

20:01They're going to stop and they're going to think. And when you've stopped somebody and you've got them thinking, you have become a more valuable partner to them right away. but then when you go what's the real challenge here for you now you're not talking about some sort of abstract business problem out there you're like here's what's hard about this for me so now you are solving the problem and you're solving that person's problem as well and you're helping to deep dive into that and i think that becomes really powerful so what's the real challenge here for you? And they'll give you an answer to that.

20:38And if you're smart, you'll know that that's not their only answer and it's probably not their best answer. So what I would do is I would then combine that with the question I actually often say is the best coaching question in the world, which is simply, and what else? So here's a script that everybody listening can just use and it will be powerful for them. What's the real challenge here for you? And what else? and what else? So what's the real challenge here for you? And if you're listening and you're like, that sounds a little easy and a little glib. And actually, I'm a bit anxious because how am I providing value in this conversation?

21:17I'm just kind of reading off a script. Well, the thing is, it'll milk the other person's brain as they suddenly go, oh my God, this is the real challenge. And that, if you're a consultant or a creative and you help your client figure out what the real challenges that is a moment of real value to them you know when i started using that question it took a long time to get used to the long silence it's like you had not like coming in and saying something and they're just like you have to watch them and their brain tick it could be a long time and by a long time that's often like two and a half seconds it's like it feels like a long time because because you're in this this moment of ambiguity and powerlessness.

22:04And that's what's really, that's kind of the underlying dynamic that doesn't get talked about much. But when you go, what's the real challenge here for you? And that person is like, oh, wow. And there's that pause. You're on the other side of the table going, oh, is that a good question? Did it land? What are they thinking? What are they going to come up with? How am I going to react? I've got nothing to do now other than just stop and wait and listen to the answer. So it's an act. you've given them power there's an act of powerlessness for you but an ability to sit with that silence and allow that person to do the thinking is incredibly powerful and if people actually want to hear an example of this some years ago maybe i'm not sure now like three two three four years ago i was on brene brown's podcast and i coached brene at about the 45 minute mark wasn't expecting it she didn't warn me he didn't tell me i was gonna coach her she goes okay michael so coach me it's 5 a.m i'm in my my 14 year old bedroom as a kid where i grew up in canberra the video has failed so i can't see her and her team in texas i'm like okay don't screw this up michael this is brené brown you know there's a bazillion people going to listen to this podcast but you you hear me asking questions and you hear the silence that is there as brené is processing the question.

23:27What you can't hear is me in my bedroom in Australia panicking because I'm like, do we have connection? Has the thing got cut? But I have just enough experience to kind of hold the line, keep silent, keep the space for her. And you can feel the, I think, the power of that conversation. And partly it's driven by my ability to ask a question and then just shut up and wait for the answer to show up.

24:03to follow up on that so you know there's a balance right between being curious but being like you know having some authority so how do you balance that especially like in a paid consulting role when should we coach and when should we just like give them advice yeah so it depends and it's a really hard question to ask but as a bet at the moment people are giving too much advice too much content and they'd be better off asking some better questions so part of what i want to do when i'm in a relation a thing like that like jacob if you come to me and go michael how do i you know it's a great lead into this how do i i'm like it could be more explicit what you want from me it's not a question you want a solution and my advice monster little lizard you know middala brain lizard brain is just going just tell the man you you know a whole bunch of stuff just tell him this is how you prove that you're smarter than him and wiser than him and you're still adding value even though you're getting old you know it'd be everybody wants this tell it to him and I just know because I've been banging on about it now for years which is like you know what there's a place for advice and it's I'm just trying to slow down the rush to action and advice so Jacob if you came to me and said Michael how do I I'd go look Jacob I have some ideas around how to do that thing for sure but let me just check with you first when you say that what what is the real challenge here for you and now suddenly I've just gone okay I've kind of received that and I've flipped it back into a question or I might go okay if that's the real challenge Jacob and I've got some good ideas about that I think you're going to like them but just so I know what ideas do you already have around how to tackle that because I'm guessing you've already done some thinking about that and you go well I yeah what about this I'm like I like that what else could you do and you go okay how about this I'm like yep that's great as well what else what else could you do here and one of the principles about being coaching of being more coach-like and it's one that people struggle with creatives in particular because they're like i'm used to delivering the work is to be lazy you know my three principles around coaching are be lazy be curious be often be lazy stop doing all the work allow a place for the other person to do the work be curious tame your advice monster ask some questions and be often realize that every interaction in person over slack text phone you can all email you can always be all of those are places where you can be curious a little bit longer i'm curious to know how that answer lands for you it was amazing uh i love hearing the example of how you'd go through the process and you could flip it back flip the script and put it back on them so that kind of leads me into like Brene Brown how did that conversation end up did you flip the script on her uh well I was I was uh um she asked me to coach her and I went sure so what's on your mind Brene you know and it's like what you what people will notice if they hear examples of me coaching and if they've read the coaching habit book is I really do just stick to some of the questions there are only seven questions in the coaching habit book and I mostly stick to those questions because people show up indicating that they want an answer but there's a deeper need or want that people have is to be seen and to be heard and to be encouraged and to be given the responsibility that they're capable of and so sure there is a there is look I'm not saying advice is bad and there are times where advice is the thing to do like matt if you're coming to me going i've accidentally set the house on fire what should i be doing i'm not going to be going well i don't know how do you feel about smoke matt what's the real challenge going follow me we're going to exit we're going to exit stage left you know i'm a pyromaniac that's the real challenge here and that is the challenge that's a challenge for everybody no i i i was just going to say yeah I think it's super smart because the other thing that I think about it is that I always say to folks, look, you know, at least in my role as a consultant, it doesn't mean that I actually always have the answers, right?

28:36Like, you know, you are hiring me to help you get to the bottom of it, but you've got an amazing team. You're amazing. You know this industry, this brand way better than I ever will because you built it, right? You've been living and breathing this. What I can do though is breathe a breath of fresh air in i can talk to the right people i can be curious and we can get to a solution together now that's a better in my view approach because you know a lot of consultants i think you know frankly you know and perhaps i i can be like this as well can be a little bit arrogant like i've got the answers to your particular issue in your particular context but as you rightly say like that's a really foolish way i think of actually conducting oneself if you ask questions there's there's a whole myriad of things that you can learn as well like you were saying like what other ideas have you been considering to solve your problem now that can save a heap of time because you know you might have had one of those ideas and we're going to present it and the you know the the client will be sat there thinking well i've already thought about this we tried this three weeks ago and it failed miserably so it's wise to be curious and it's wise to hold back i think and ask some of these questions that you're recommending there's a way that your accumulated wisdom feeds into your ability to ask the question and also to understand the answer that they give you i just think it's a mistake to say the way that you prove your authority is by having the answer because the faster you are to have the answer the more likely you are to be wrong now it's a challenge because a lot of the time people are like look i I don't want a question.

30:12I don't want a conversation. I just want the answer. And there's that paradox that when you see an expert on TV, the more certain they are, the more people like them and the more likely they are to be wrong. There's just a ton of statistics around that, which is like, you know, because they're an expert on TV, nobody holds them accountable in six months time. You know how you said, and in fact, this happened. so when somebody shows up and is being very clear let me be absolutely clear our lizard brain loves certainty so when somebody is being really clear and really directive and really authoritative our brain goes oh this is excellent they've got it i don't even know what we're talking about directly but they've got it and i can relax a bit about this because i feel safe and the brains you know the lizard brain is all about going my job is to keep you safe because the longer you live the more likely you are to have kids and the more likely you have to kids the more my dna passes on and so it's a it's a brain replication strategy which is to keep you alive as long as possible and keeping you safe is a key part of that and the clearer you feel about things the safer you feel so part of what you have to do as you ask a good question is you're also trying to make it feel safe while doing something that feels a little unsafe for both of you which is to ask a question of that put put people at ease in in any way you can when you're asking these probing questions right and i have a quick question because obviously we're talking here about coaching a lot and kind of one-to-one conversations and i just wondered in terms of just just a sort of a you know a curveball question what are your thoughts on on on sort of group dynamics you know i do a lot of work and i'm sure a lot of listeners do a lot of work with say leadership teams or groups of teams and obviously sometimes you need to listen to lots of perspectives in order to come to a to to understand a problem truly so i wondered what your thoughts were on group coaching if you like do you ever do one to many for example do you ever advise that and uh you know what are your thoughts around that that sort of dynamic yeah look if you buy into this idea that being more coach-like is staying curious longer then every every situation can lend itself to questions and then you're going kind of at a at a facilitative or logistical level how am I going to make that work because for instance if you show up into a room and there's 12 people on a team and you go okay so I hear this team's a bit dysfunctional what's the challenge here what you're going to get is a very awkward silence from 12 people who are kind of looking at the floor and deliberately not looking at that person over there so there's a way to to manage that in a way that can be really powerful you know people don't feel safe in sharing an answer in a in a large group for the most part unless a bunch of trust and safety has been developed so what you do perhaps or one thing you could do is you get pair people up and you're right we're going to pay you up or put you in threes and we're like what's the you know what's the thing that we want to do more of or do less of or whatever in this team and then find a way to come back and share it so people will be getting my message by now which is like almost everything is improved by staying curious a little bit longer because it sets you up for success when you're actually given guidance and advice and and specificity and you can definitely do it for for teams or large groups if you're building a brand and want to do it right this is for you join the brand builders alliance for expert coaching live master classes and a crew of brand builders who've got your back get on the wait list now at join bba.com now back to the show so michael you talk about the advice trap right you've written the whole book on it about how you tame the advice monster i know we're kind of circled around this idea a bit but is there any rituals or go-to techniques you could share with our audience to just you know be comfortable with that silence and being curious like how do you actually implement that in a practical way the first thing to do is just it's really great to start noticing how much you want to give advice because most of us don't even realize just how how relentlessly we leap to the answer and we that that's what the other person is asking for.

34:41So there's a there's just a self-awareness going how keen am I to to interrupt and come in with the answer? How much do I think that them that this conversation is about them coming to me for an answer? You know there's statistics that say a you know a general practitioner doctor on average interrupts their patient within the first 17 seconds of a conversation with them and I've always felt that it was a bit unfair for doctors because I'm like, I'm pretty sure that's everybody. Everybody's like, oh, let me be helpful for you. But it is surprising how many situations don't have somebody going, what I'm hoping for here is your advice.

35:26Mostly they want your encouragement, your questions, your presence, being seen, being heard, being helped. and you can do that with questions and thank you as long as you can. But for me, part of the Attaining Your Advice Monster is just notice that. Second thing is to go, the goal is not to become comfortable with silence, although that's a bonus if you can get there. All you have to do is be less uncomfortable with it than the other person. because when you ask a question and there's this heartbeat and another heartbeat and you're like oh my god this is a terrible question what am i doing and you know about a second and a half has has transpired either they're feeling the same as you which is like oh my god this is awkward and they will crack first or else they're going you know they're they're sometimes not a labeled introverts and they're going this is great because I actually need a heartbeat or three just to get my answer together in my head before I can articulate it I mean there's lots of different definitions for introverts and extroverts but one of the definitions talks about how people process information if you're an extrovert like me on this scale the way I process information is I start talking so when I go look there look Jacob there are three things you need to know here I don't yet know what those three things are.

36:58I'm about to discover them myself. I hope they're interesting. But I've just kind of set myself up going, I'm going to start talking. I'm going to find out this answer along with you. If you're introverted, you're like, one, two. Okay, I've got my three things. All right, here we go. And so if you're wired like that, it is a great gift to be given just two seconds of silence to get my thoughts in order before I actually get to start talking. and then for me i think there's something about well what's the habit you want to build that can kind of help you manage your advice monster and it's really useful just to have a go-to question that can help with that and people have already heard the question i want to recommend which is and what else because when you're sitting there and you've asked a question and they say something and you're like oh man i've got so i've got things to say to that oh here we go because you're you've been seduced into thinking that their first answer is their actual answer it's only their first answer but if you just got a default going after their first answer regardless of what's going on in my head i go and what else what else what else are you thinking here what else is a challenge here what i what other ideas do you have that's a way that you stay curious longer tame your advice monster and allow people to get a little deeper into the conversation brilliant thank you matt did you have any follow-up questions no no really i think that was really really you know fantastic here and i i think i think you're absolutely right i'm probably the worst though i would say and jake will testify to this of jumping in so it's um it's you know on paper i completely agree with everything you've said let me interrupt for a moment interrupt me come on let's go because there are times where you do want to interrupt because sometimes you get you ask a question and the person starts monologuing and you're like oh my god this is my life ticking away and i'm never i don't even know what this person's saying and i'm trying to be polite and encouraging and doing the active listening thing but part of you is going, what is this about?

39:08So interrupting can be absolutely appropriate. And what I just tried to role model, which is, hey, Matt, let me interrupt. That's the way I interrupt. Because the best way to interrupt somebody is not with a question, but with the statement or the signaling that you are currently interrupting them. So you go, hey, Matt, let me hold you there for a moment. Matt, let me just stop you. Matt, let me interrupt. Matt, I'm just going to jump in here. Matt, sorry to break the flow of your thoughts here, but and what I've done is I've just told you what's happening. So you go, oh, okay, right. Michael's interrupting me.

39:48This doesn't feel rude. It feels like part of the process. And then I'll go, this is all very interesting, but you know, what's, what's the real challenge here for you in this? So there are times where interrupting to focus the conversation can be really powerful. And I say that to deal with a bigger issue that kind of lives in this world which is people are anxious about coaching because they're like i don't have time for this i am easy i've got responsibilities i've got projects i'm working on client conversations i need to be part of if i'm starting to coach everybody like i'm already working a 60 hour week suddenly it's going to be a 90 hour week because now i have to ask questions and kind of who has time for this and my take on that is first of all coaching shouldn't be seen as an add-on to what you're currently doing it should be a way of transforming what you currently do to be more coach-like secondly i think that a typical coaching conversation should take less than 10 minutes and that means you have to get into the real stuff as fast as possible a lot of flabby coaching just takes too long to get anywhere that's interested because the person's so busy actively listening that they don't realize that we're not talking about anything interesting at the moment they're giving a whole lot of background that i don't actually need so you know when somebody starts talking and i'm like okay we're god you're filling in all the background and i actually don't need any background because i'm not trying to solve your problem i'm I'm trying to help you solve your problem.

41:26And you already have all your background. So I will interrupt regularly, but I'll interrupt regularly to ask a question.

41:42So what if they don't know their real challenge? How do you help or guide them then? Well, I get as close as we can. I will go, so what do you think the real challenge here for you is? I'm like, yeah, yeah, I don't know. I go, yeah, that's hard. If you had to take a guess, what do you think your real challenge might be? And that kind of, so just take a guess, takes the pressure off. It's feeling like, oh, I get it right or I die. But I don't know what my real challenge is. I fail. You're like, yeah, yeah, it's hard. I get that. But if you had to take a guess, because I think you're getting close to it, what's your best guess?

42:24what the real challenge is and there's a way you can you build up experience over time going oh it feels like we've landed somewhere really interesting here or sometimes you go okay that sounds like it might be it and then you get into a conversation you realize it just doesn't feel really that urgent or that important and then you can you can say that you're like we could keep digging into this but it feels a bit academic I'm almost a little boring so let let me check. Is this the real challenge or is there another challenge that's lurking here? And they're like, yeah, I thought that was the real challenge, but I don't think it is anymore.