S06.EP19 - Make Your Brand Famous with Dan Cushing and Diego Borgo

0:00Understand you've got a truth you can stand by, for goodness sake. Be aware that, you know, human beings will pick up your piece of tech and they will bend it and they will use it and they will do things with it that you have not expected them to do. So be agile to that and remember that in that kind of dev room, it's going to look wildly different out in the world. So at least be committed to standing by a promise and a truth. We need more of that. We need less hype crap that's coming in the world. We really do.

0:28Hello and welcome to Just Branding. The only podcast dedicated to helping designers and entrepreneurs grow brands. Here are your hosts, Jacob Cass and Matt Davies. All right, before we jump in, if you're serious about mastering branding and building a thriving creative business, the Brand Builders Alliance is for you. Inside, you'll get live masterclasses, mentorship from our eight resident coaches, a stacked resource vault and a global network of brand builders who actually get it. If you're done winging it alone and are ready to scale with structure, support and serious momentum, head over to joinbba.com and get on the wait list.

1:15That's joinbba.com. Hi, folks. Welcome to this latest episode of Just Branding. It's great to have you along for the ride. Today, you're in for a treat. We have got two of the founding members of Thumbcorp, an agency that delivers fame for visionary tech companies, sitting really at the intersection of visionary technology and the real world. So you're in for a treat. If you are interested in that space, it's going to be really exciting. We've got Dan Cushing with us and Diego Borgo. and I've actually had the honour of working with both of them individually and collectively over the last few years and I know their level is through the roof so you're gonna kind of hopefully learn some really interesting exciting things about brand building specifically in this tech space.

2:06So let me give you a couple of intros just so you know where they're coming from. So first of all Dan Cushing he's joining us today as a co-founder of Thumbcorp. Dan cut his cloth in publishing and ad land in the creative and strategic planning departments, working with some of the world's biggest accounts from Stella Artois to Levi's to Honda and Vogue. And really that grounding has shaped how Dan sees brand. From there, he's moved into business development, working on site and across the globe at the forefront of culture. Today, Dan is building Thumbcorp, an agency, as we've said, that's really kind of making waves in that visionary tech space, bringing some of that visionary ideology into the real world and we'll no doubt tuck into that with you shortly Dan so welcome to you Dan lovely thanks man all right and then I'll move on to Diego Diego has joined us he's also an executive partner at Thumbcorp with over two decades of branding experience and eight plus years in blockchain Diego helps tech founders go mainstream by translating complex products into narratives that people outside the bubble can understand And he's advised global leaders from brands like Adidas, Prada, Salesforce, Unilever, MasterCard, Volkswagen, all of that lot and more on navigating this mysterious Web3 territory, while also partnering with projects such as Pith Network, Aptos, Cookie3 and Omni Network, who are already in that space to kind of come more mainstream.

3:38So beyond advertising, Diego is a global speaker sharing insights at Web Summit, Paris Blockchain Week, DMEX Co, I've probably said that wrong, BAM Marketing Congress and more. And his content is reaching over 50 million plus worldwide. And beyond that, he is the guy you will know from his pink beanie. So welcome, Diego. It's great to have you on the show. Thanks, Brad. And there's a hell of an intro. There was. That knocked my one completely out of the park. Set the tone immediately. Sorry, Dan, I'll try better next time. No, he's done well, whatever. Yeah, basically, I'm your sidekick, Diego, in a nutshell.

4:15Amazing. Love that. Love it. Cool. Well, look, chaps, look, thanks for coming on the show. Let's tuck into some stuff. First of all, tell us a little bit about this Thumbcorp. Weird name, you know, what's that all about? And how did that start? Maybe, Dan, I'll direct that question to you, maybe, to start with. Sure thing, buddy. Well, firstly, obviously, guys, thanks for having us on. big fan of your show first and foremost so really looking forward to this conversation how did Thumbcork come about good question so I it's been an evolution I set my first shop up now just coming up to four and a half years ago under the name of Power Studio and Power Studio was a result of my years in the game as you've said I cut my cloth in big ad land and it took me into some phenomenal rooms and I got to see firsthand just the true power of what great strategic thinking allied to next level creative outputs could do and how that could shift the dial.

5:11It took me around the world. I enjoyed a hell of a time. I came back to the UK. I'd seen a seismic shift in how advertising agencies were delivering for their clients. And it had really got into a bit of a production line, sort of sausage factory, almost. I got a gig on site, which was a real eye opener. It's the first time I'd moved out of Ivory Towers and began to see just how brand operated at the coalface for a large, I think it was a large finance company. And I started to realize where it was failing, where it was going wrong, an opportunity presented itself to pick up a client, a large one, I brought with me a wildly talented commercial brain, a guy called Mick, who was able to really nurture me and get to the grips of how to get brand performing better for you, which is the name of the game, right?

6:01What is it adding to the bottom line the idea being when i set the first shop up that i wanted to understand how we could build building blocks and how we could help reinvigorate brands with always the long-term goal of synthesizing the building blocks for brands the brands that were either stagnating or looking to reinvigorate but then allied to great creative outputs i took it upon myself to kind of just make that march up barely washing my face to start with to be quite honest And then, you know, traction started to happen. And we got a lot of flow and we were winning a lot of work in the scale up space.

6:36But certain problems started to happen reoccurringly that they didn't necessarily have the budget to keep us at the table to deliver those big creative outputs. And then piece by piece, as we were going, it took me into different rooms, two of which threw me into conversations and around the table with the man in the pink hat in the Web3 and emerging tech spaces, where it was safe to say suddenly ambition was met with the budget. and after dancing a few times with Diego we got managed to get our teeth into some really big chunky briefs for some clients that had wild ambitions and I was able to synthesize the thinking from that original kind of positioning right through and call on my network to deliver some groundbreaking creative outputs and it was when we had that set of creatives around the table beginning of the year we decided to go full pelt and hence present day where Thumbcourt was a And it made sense as we kind of went through that journey to keep Diego firmly at the table because his inputs have been wildly beneficial.

7:37So that's where we are present day. Dee, is there anything you wanted to add on that, mate? Yeah, no, for me, it's just exciting because, you know, obviously what we've been doing within Thumb is bringing the best of both worlds together, right? So if you look into being native to an industry like Web3, blockchain, crypto, you name it, it's very deep down the rabbit hole, right? I tend to say to people that there isn't like a part-time, there isn't even a full-time, right? It's 24-7. It's an industry that doesn't stop. Every day there is something exciting. Every day there is a scam. Every day there's a scandal.

8:09And it's just all in, right? I tend to say like I've been working with the largest brands in the world, as you mentioned before. And I've also been working with a lot of different startups within, you know, e-sports and marketing tech. But I never found an industry that is so exciting as blockchain, web trade, crypto, right? It's just like it's the Wild West, but it's also extremely innovative. It's breaking the mold. It's trying to revolutionize many different things, including, you know, the global economy. And it's just exciting. You know, there is not a single day that you don't meet anyone that, you know, doesn't blow your mind or, you know, just kind of like make you think differently about it.

8:49So that's kind of like where I've been natively since 2017. And as we got together, Dan is bringing his background. I'm bringing my background. And now that this industry is maturing slowly, but surely still far from perfect. But we're seeing an opportunity where those companies are going to start trying to go mainstream. Right. They're going to start trying to the average, talking to the average Joe. They're going to start trying to find their ways into, let's call it the normal world. And that's where a lot of them are struggling. that's where a lot of them are failing because they're trying to bring the same message the same value propositions the same benefits that worked within the bubble because it resonated with the tech heads because it resonated with the dgens as we call that but you know outside of the bubble nobody gives a f**k and that's why we're here and that's why we got together i've got two follow-up questions uh one for you dan and one for you diego um dan you said you you you moved from para studio to thumbcorp different name obviously different intent and positioning but what does thumbcorp where does that name come from what does it stand for good question yeah that was in essence we we want to represent absurdity right because absurdity is at lies at the very core of what shifts the dial for us and we want to kind of live by the mantra of how we deliver brands and brands should be associated as we all know to a meaning thumbcorp was the birth child of one of our great planners who conceptualized around the notion that what is a thumb what does thumb serve as a kind of a vehicle and thumb is your missing link it's your enabler it allows you to grasp things that your four fingers simply cannot and I think we've all struggled to date with understanding how we sell brands right brand has got its own branding crisis as we know let's make a bit of fun at that let's make a play on that and that's where the origins of thumb came from and then the side swipe was really just around this this wild world we live in about this corporate greed so the corp was an extension more just as a tongue-in-cheek play than anything else you know we are far from a big building with big gold lions out the front the world does not need more of that it certainly doesn't it needs the innovators it needs the visionaries to tumble those guys so it's a kind of amalgamation but at its core it needs to celebrate absurdity and the power of creativity i love it it's such a cool name when you when you first sort of talked to me about it a few years well a few months ago well years ago might have been last year a few months it would have been yeah a few months yeah i just thought it was such a clever idea like this idea that you know businesses you know they need their thumb right it's gonna be the brand which is going to help them grasp you know grasp things and take grasp opportunities i guess i just want to mention their site because it is absurd right it's neon colors big it's so wrong text memes uh gifs everywhere it's totally totally unique uh so yeah just wanted to check here yeah i mean it's interesting jake that was obviously a deliberate intent as you can imagine um i'm sure you guys have suffered with this right like branding agencies per se we all tend to like to keep it very within the tram lines which is absurd in itself considering some of the amazing outputs everyone's responsible for and as a challenger brand we know that we've got an uphill battle on our hands right we've got to get noticed so all of that was intentionally considered and if it brings a smile on people's faces then you know a thumb with a rocket ship uh kind of like flames coming out of it that that got me smiling so yeah you should definitely folks you should definitely sign up for the newsletter and all sorts of stuff because it's it's not only like really smart thinking if i may say so coming out of your studio but and great outputs but it's just super fun like It is absurd, most of it.

12:33And that, as you say, gives a little smile to people's faces. So check that out, folks. Right. But another question. Diego, some of our audience are not into Web3 and all that stuff. So I was just wondering whether we could kind of just sort of give a bit of a simple definition on what you see Web3 is. What is Web3? Wow. It's a philosophical question at the same time. How much time we got, a week? It's as simple as you can make it. You know, you try to figure out the meaning of life. I mean, that's kind of what we've been doing in this industry, you know, because everybody's got a concept and everybody's got a vision and nobody knows where it's heading.

13:13So it's quite funny. So like trying to make it super short and butchering, you know, 95 percent of the technicalities of it. I'm sure everyone has ever heard of Bitcoin, right? Bitcoin being obviously a cryptocurrency, but essentially gave birth to a technology called blockchain, right? Blockchain is nothing more than a ledger where information can be stored, verified, and is immutable. So you have transparency and see what's happening within that ledger. It's immutable because once it's written down, it can be changed. And it's transparent because anybody can look into it. So that's where all this thing happened.

13:46Bitcoin being a currency that has been built on top of it, two things. One, solve the problem of how do you start spending money digitally like you spend cash physically, which is if I give you 10 bucks in person, there is no middleman between us. But if I want to give you 10 bucks over the internet, there's always someone in between, right? So that's one of the problems that was set to solve digitally. And then the second problem as well is just being a counter movement against, you know, money printing and inflation and governments having control over fiat, aka dollar, euro, pounds, right? So everything started there.

14:20And then as it evolve many, many, many different currencies have been issued. I think we have over than five million different cryptocurrencies right now, including, you know, a great majority of meme coins and coins that absolutely do nothing instead, if not speculation. And on top of that economy now, you start building applications, right? So you have the internet. If you think about how the internet has been evolving in its infancy, the internet was nothing else than just a database that you could read from, right? Like a newspaper. You get a newspaper printed. You look at it. you read, you couldn't input, you couldn't change, you couldn't do anything.

14:53Evolved to what we call Web2, where you can input, you can create a blog piece, you can upload a piece of content. What we are doing right now is essentially that, right? We are creating information within the web. So instead of you just consuming it, now it's two way. You can consume and you can create. The third layer which Web3 has been posing to add value to is the element of ownership. So you can consume, you can create, but you don't own anything. Everything is owned by either a middleman or a big tech or anybody else. Whatever you put out there is not yours. So that layer of being able to leverage blockchain technology as a way to publish something on a ledger creates an element of giving ownership to people over whatever they are creating digitally.

15:40This is one part of the thing. The second part of the thing is because cryptocurrencies, as internet money as we call, or digital money as we call, are used for people to transact digitally. Now there is a way on which you have your coins within your digital wallet and you can interact with applications within the web through your wallet. And therefore that's how you can move money around and that's how you can pay for applications, how you can get paid through applications. And all those applications are being built on, for example, Ethereum or other types of blockchain that enable things to be built upon them.

16:13So it's almost like a new infrastructure and a new layer that is being built on top of the already existing tech stack that is supposed to create that third element, which is ownership that comes on top of everything else that currently exists. So that's the simplest, fastest and less techie way could potentially bring it through. There is a lot of things still that obviously are far from perfect. It's a very early and immature industry. But if you keep an eye on what's happening and it's changing very, very fast, especially this year, you're seeing that, you know, this thing's not going anywhere.

16:49Nice, nice. Jacob, you've dabbled a little bit in Web3. Like, what's your sort of take on what Diego said? Yes, that's a tough one. It's so much deeper. And yeah, I got excited when I first heard about blockchain and crypto and Web3 and I ended up co-founding a company when that all came out. And then that kind of crashed. We all, we just had too many chefs in the kitchen and it was, there was too many, too many there. So we kind of put that aside and it was good while it lasted, but I got really excited about the whole, whole idea of it. And yeah, that's why I started the company, but yeah, it just didn't work out.

17:22can i just interject because i mean i'm just so everyone knows that i am not a native to that space right i am a bona fide kind of normie through and through to my bones i have bits of tech then i probably use the capabilities up to about five percent so when i hear diego and i've been in this space now 18 months i would say two years and when i hear diego talk and explain it like that the batteries still drop out the back of my head slightly right because it is a complex and he's done a really good job about taking the weight out of it but just from my perspective coming in web 3 represents it is the future in some shape way or form of how we transact how we own and how we can begin to build equity in our own data and our own kind of essence of who we are it's about retaining and taking back control is how i look at web 3 all of the various multi kind of layers etc then it becomes an extremely complex proposition but the core of it that's what i when i think of web 3 and blockchain that's what really lights me up because from an ideological perspective, it is doing something fundamentally to shift the power of control, essentially.

18:28And that's why. The company that I started was actually to help educate other, well, creatives in particular, that was an issue we were trying to go after to help educate them on Web3 and the benefits of it and how crypto and blockchain is integrated with it all and how artists and creatives can actually utilize that. But like I said, it didn't work out, but it was a really complex subject and that was the biggest barrier just people didn't understand it and we wanted to simplify that and create courses for creatives to understand it better. Yeah, maybe it was just timing, Jacob. Maybe it's...

19:00It was so early, hey? And then the NFT bubble popped and it was just like there was a big crash and yeah, people parted ways and you just couldn't get things done when you didn't have the proper team. So yeah, it was challenging. I think that's a really big gap in the market, Jacob, to be honest with you. I think that's worth having a chat about and looking at because I think there's a huge need for that. This isn't going anywhere anytime soon either. That kind of infancy period and always is going to work as this test. There's too much now invested, you know, GDPs from around the world. Like this is in order for this to suddenly evaporate and vanish, it would have seismic consequences.

19:35So, yeah, worth it. All right. We'll put that down. If you're building a brand and want to do it right, this is for you. Join the Brand Builders Alliance for expert coaching, live masterclasses, and a crew of brand builders who've got your back. Get on the waitlist now at joinbba.com. Now back to the show. When you think of that space and the work that Thumbcorp are doing in that space and the work Diego you're doing in that space as, say, a consultant advisor as well, I guess it'd be quite helpful to kind of think through, well, how is branding working in that space? I mean, we've touched on it a little bit, But like, does it differ much from say more traditional kind of markets?

20:17And what are you sort of seeing? Like, what are the brands that are emerging and how are you helping them? Yeah, it's interesting because it's twofold, right? So if you look into what Jacob was saying around that whole crazy hype around NFTs and metaverse and Web3 that started, you know, let's say mid 2021. And the work I've done with Adidas obviously was a part of a big part of it because it a big sign once we've done into the metaverse which was an nft product that we sold 24 million euros in 24 hours every single fortune 500 brand in the world had someone in the organization that was excited about crypto for years like myself trying to find something you know to bring into the company but never really finding the right angle now that thing was like a slide that they could put in front of the board and say like adidas is doing has been successful we need to move into that space right so that whole bull run started off like out of the fortune 500 brands you know i would say that 80 to 85 percent have done something in that industry right that being like just a pilot pr or gone really deep the rabbit hole for example like shell a company that i also worked with that has a eight year plus blockchain team in-house focused on how they are shifting a lot of their energy products on chain and you leverage this type of technology to create new revenue models.

21:42So from A to Z, everything has happened. And that was the time still where those brands are trying to come into the industry, right? They're trying to understand, they've seen the trend, they've seen the opportunity, they've seen the money, they've seen the new spark. And that has faded and that has shifted. A lot of that has been focused on consumer facing, right? So how we make a product that consumers can buy, a product consumers can interact. And what we are seeing now is rather the other way around, right? This element of the Fortune 500 right now through much more legislation or pipeline or the pipes and the infrastructure that is being built.

22:18Stablecoins is obviously a great example where a lot of companies are looking into. That's what's happening. Those companies are approaching our industry from a different angle. It's institutional. It's supply chain and things in that direction. So this has changed on how big major brands are looking into the industry. And then on the other side of the equation, you have Web3 native companies that are, one, selling within the bubble and working within the already existing customers that are native to this audience. But also you have another fold of that, which are companies that are trying to go mainstream.

22:52So I just wanted to paint that picture before we dive deep into the difference and the nuances of branding. But that's kind of like the overall landscape that you're working with. Right now, there is a major difference on how those big brands are coming to the space and also how those native brands are going mainstream. Right. Because they're kind of like doing that. We see it in that intersection. Right. We bring big brands into the space like I've done before Fortune 500. But also we're bringing those native companies into the mainstream through, you know, things around fame and everything that we've been talking before, which obviously we're going to tackle a bit deeper.

23:26So with that in mind, what is interesting within how brand is being built natively within the bubble is that a lot of times founders are mostly focused on how they can get attention, which is very funny because even the terminologies are funny. Everything that everybody's measuring right now in marketing in Web3 is around how much people are talking about them. So everything happens in crypto Twitter is essentially a part of X right now that people spend most of their time on. And everything is around mindshare. So that's the metric. So how much people are talking about this project, how much KOLs, which is a key opinion leaders, essentially influencers are talking about this project, and how much of that is being spoken on the timeline.

24:09So how much of that's being measured? So a lot of that is being posed around essentially this KPI. Also, there's other things like how many people are using the application, how many people are actually on chain transacting and being there present. But a lot of how the brand is being built is within the bubble. It's how we talk to people that are already here, how we try to sell or convert people that are using other applications or in other chains, how I steal audience from that chain to my chain. So it's very cannibalism-like because everybody's fighting for the same eyeballs within the bubble.

24:43right and what very few are understanding being able to do so is how they expand beyond it how they go improve value to people that are not inside of the bubble how they go there and grab new audiences into this bubble right so that's kind of like the the consistent challenge because as you guys were saying before it's still very difficult for people from outside to understand the value on this product but then when you try to sell to them a lot of them don't know how to speak their language or how to translate benefits. So that's kind of like the challenge slash opportunity that we face every day.

25:15But we are also seeing that once you're able to translate especially value, then you're going to start creating this flow into how you're growing the industry, how you're getting more people to get their hands on the product. And the other way around as well is how those brands that are coming to the space are coming here to help growing the space rather. and also how they can translate to their already existing audience, the web to people that know nothing about it, that don't care at all, on how the experience can be better or new products can be created or new business model can be created.

25:46Nice. I guess that segues that idea of attention into this concept of fame, which I really want to get us to. Dan, what are your thoughts on what Diego said? And how does that sort of translate into the way that Thumbcorp helps to build fame for brands? Yeah, it's an interesting topic. I think coming from the outside looking in, when I've walked into the Web3 space, that there's a couple of key factors at play which distort how we would particularly define what brand building is, right? First and foremost, this is a wildly overcapitalized sector and market in itself. So as we know, human beings, that if you plunk them in a situation where the rewards are so, you know, gargantuan in such a short amount of time, it elicits a level of greed undeniably.

26:33that happens that's not to wipe you know say every company out there is doing that far from it there are some real genuine bona fide visionaries who are committed to adding utility to the bottom of their thing but it's become the challenge i've faced is getting to grips with are people actually concerned with brand building or are they more just concerned with let's get as many eyeballs as what diego spoke about how they're measuring those eyeballs of no consequence 99 of the time because they'll have a token associated with it. They'll have some sort of monetary short-term reward. Now that blurs the lines fundamentally from where I sit as a traditionalist in terms of what and how you guys would present that in terms of what is the requirements because the need might just simply not be there.

27:19They might be saying, you know, out loud, oh, we want to build this, we want to give back and we want to kind of cross the chasm. But in actual fact, what they really want to do is just build something that is going to give them gargantuan returns and then shut it down. A lot of the time that can happen. But what we're starting to see from the brand building perspective is the companies that we're talking to, those people that do have the bona fide utility, the biggest education piece that exists is making people aware of the difference between hype and fame, as we say. So are you becoming famous for a legacy?

27:53Are you becoming famous for something that outstrips what your product does? Are you committed to a single promise? Is there something you can stand by resolutely that you can defend, scale and own? Now, just by kind of introducing that as a concept, what you do is you start to level the playing field and it kind of reduces your market. And it's taken us a lot of time to kind of sieve through that and see where they stand. but I would say that takes out a large percentage of who we talk to because hype exists for a reason, right? And if KOLs are putting t-shirts of their product on and they're pumping the token value by X amount, that's sometimes all they need.

28:33We get that. We're not here for those people. We're here for those utility makers. We're here for the guys that are looking and saying, right, how do we become meaningfully different to the people outside of our bubble who understand that the easy wins within the jar will only take us to a certain threshold and that requires a different lens so when we talk about when we talk about fame sure there's a prosperity angle to that but it's also about your legacy it's about understanding how are we positioning ourselves in people's minds that is meaningfully different that we can go on the defensive and the offensive about and as often as not that creates a bit of a cultural tension because it's a new concept for these companies to have to get their heads around you know can you imagine if you're a scalar in our scale up world in normie world in web 2 world scale ups reach a threshold of say they turn over 15 20 mil and then they might look for investment etc etc these guys can pull and trade up to 500 a billion with really lean teams so that cultural point of tension becomes a fascinating topic because you're really dealing with okay how committed are you to this how truly committed are you the rewards are great because it means that we get to work with some phenomenally brilliant visionaries but i can't deny that it's kind of had to kind of i'd say to almost half our market audience because so many are chasing those short-term wins how are you telling the difference between hype chases and fame chase chases yeah it's a it's been a journey hasn't it diego yeah it's been a journey yeah i'll just pick up on that quickly so diego's obviously much more in with what she could look for but when i walked into that space jacob we were going into a lot of rooms where on the surface people were saying the right things and then it always invariably came down to okay well if we didn't do that part and we just shortcut it to there and we got eyeballs and we got eyeballs and then you'd want to find out have you got a token in the pipeline does your token need reinvigorating for instance are you looking for numbers for numbers sake these could be big red flag questions that would dictate to us okay what is the commitment around the table to build something of real substance as opposed to the flyby shooting stars um d i don't know if you've got more to add on that particular subject yeah i think i think it's uh look we we obviously don't work just with blockchain and web street companies as demo saying right it's it's it's it's a market that it's still very immature it's small and it's evolving it's going to grow and and deniable.

31:03But I think that the whole conversation is a tech brand problem challenge as a whole, right? Because what happens is whenever you're working within this tech environment, and we're talking about emerging tech, right? We're talking about immersive experience. We're talking about blockchain, crypto, Web3. You're talking about even AI, right? It's hyperfunded, hypercapitalizes them are saying. But most importantly, 99 % of the people building within in those industries are tech heads, right? They are in because of the tech. They love the tech. It's all they can think about. It's all they care about.

31:39And that's it. So they're so focused on that, that even thinking about how the rest of the world perceives it, it's just impossible for them to understand, right? A lot of times we sit in front of tech founders and we start talking about brand and you just see their eyes just kind of like looking, staring at the screen. They don't even grasp what we're talking about, right? They cannot even imagine it. The same way as when they start explaining how their product works from a code perspective, from the technological perspective and all of it. So once you zoom out to that overall emerging tech bubble, the way that those guys are approaching brand is the same way they approach product.

32:19They need an MVP. If it doesn't work, they pay for it. It doesn't work, they pay for it. They throw money at it. They throw devs at it. And it doesn't work, it pay for it. It doesn't work, it pay for it. But brand doesn't work that way. Right? It's totally different. You're not trying to find product market fit through your brand. You're trying to find product market fit through the features, through the thing that your product actually does. But essentially the problem you're trying to solve or the vision you're selling or the story you're telling, it's regardless to how that product is going to kind of like work in a way, right?