S06.EP21 - Best of 2025 (Season 6)

0:03Hello and welcome to Just Branding. The only podcast dedicated to helping designers and entrepreneurs grow brands. Here are your hosts, Jacob Cass and Matt Davies. Well, hello folks and welcome to the best of episode of season six, right? Season six, Jacob. How on earth have we been doing this for six seasons? We say this every year. Another year, another year. Another year. And well, this year has been particularly amazing, hasn't it? We've had some phenomenal guests on the show. And so I guess we want to first of all start by a bit of gratitude, thanking all our amazing guests. You're going to hear some clips from them coming up in this episode.

0:48Some of the phenomenal guests we've had are people like Rory Sutherland. We've had Mark Ritson and a whole bunch of others. We've had our Marty Neumeier, David Arker, Laura Reese, just some phenomenal minds, haven't we, Jacob, to come and share their thinking. So massive gratitude to them, but also a massive gratitude shout out to all of you, our lovely listeners. Thank you. We wouldn't be able to do this, of course, without all of your kind of support and five star reviews and so on. So we want to thank everybody who's given us a little plug this year. So thank you. All right, Matt, how are we going to do this?

1:20How many clips have we got? I don't know. I mean, there's been so many great episodes, haven't there? And we can't obviously replay every single one of them in every bit of depth. But I think perhaps we've got about 20, 22 little clips we could go through just to kind of give a bit of a synopsis of some of the big topics of this year. And I think we should probably start with some of the broad things around brand and brand building. I mean, when we first started this podcast, Jacob, we really did it to shine a light on an emerging area called this mystical area called brand strategy, which I'd been dabbling in as a consultant and you were moving into.

1:58And I think that sort of area is now fairly well established. We've got loads of books on it now. There's a lot of thinking, a lot of training courses, communities around it. So it was interesting to see, to go a bit deeper this year on kind of bigger topics. But we did still have some broad introductory sort of discussions on brand and brand positioning, which were really helpful. So perhaps we could start there. Let's do it. All right. The first one we have is from Simon Dixon. and this is where we went behind the scenes of their amazing agency Dixon Baxi and here he talks about the power of branding which is a perfect way to start this best of episode let's play now identity is only as powerful as the meaning you fill it with so logo is an empty vessel so say for example you see an apple logo on a car what would you think that car is going to be like yeah exactly you haven't driven it you know you don't know how much it costs but you assume it's going to be good, don't you?

2:53That's the power of branding. So there's an idea in your mind that comes from everything that Apple has done through humanizing technology, creating ethical systems that work, design of a super high fidelity. It raises the bar. So you believe something as soon as you think about that brand. That's what it's about. Intelligent identity is rather than just being a surface thing, it's driven by things that will make greater change for the organization, but will also serve people better. And then that builds attribution, it builds conversations, It builds meaning in the world. It's something that works everywhere.

3:26And then ultimately, it's relevant and it drives the relationships with people and ultimately can drive communities. Yeah, there we have it from Simon Dixon. And that was episode 11, if you want to hear the full episode. And it's so powerful, right? We talked about brand strategy as one topic. But the further we get into this podcast, the more facets, the more lenses we see on brand. And, you know, we talk into different things like marketing science and brand leadership and culture and just brand is so deep and wide as well. So that was a great one to start off with. I love that. I love that clip because that's from an agency, right, who are, you know, world class at execution.

4:10right and to hear simon dixon really talk about the brand is is beyond the logo the fonts right which which for a lot of designer and creative folks because they become obsessed with i think it's such an important thing that we don't lose sight of that it's you know really it's a strategic endeavor i mean my my definition as as we've used in the podcast over the years is that the brand is the meaning that other people attach to you and that's influenced by lots of things of course the brand is important as in the brand identity is important but it really is the value that you're you're giving to the market and i think that that's come out time and time again that that definition still sort of stands up marty newmeyer who we'll listen to later he says it's the gut the gut instinct the gut response of a customer to your offering so i think that that is helpful as we go through the rest of these clips we had perhaps someone who really terrifies me perhaps more than more than you do Jacob on the show Professor Mark Ritson came on I gotta admit Jacob I was absolutely trembling in my boots and he did eat me a couple of times in the episode for talking about things like archetypes and things like this which I often get people quoting at me they're like yeah he had you on archetypes I was like well I don't know if he did have me I was just being respectful to our guest because uh we me and Professor Mark Ritson we disagreed a little bit on that but it was nonetheless an amazing episode and Mark's phenomenal isn't he absolutely Yeah.

5:33And this title for this episode was Branding is Dead and Other Marketing BS. And that was episode five in the season. So if you want to listen to that one, it's a winner. It's probably the most profane episode we've had in all six seasons. There's a lot of beeping and things going on, but that's his style. And yeah, it was great to have him on. So we've pulled a little clip from the episode and it's all about positioning, which is a huge part of branding. And the point is that positioning is not an end in itself. So let's hear what Mark had to say about this. Most brand managers think that positioning is an end in itself.

6:16Positioning is not an end in itself. It's a means to an end. And the end is that the brand comes to mind and the consumer thinks the couple of things we want them to think. The end, right? Now, add on to that the idea that most positioning is so full of f***ing s***, consumers would never, ever deign to think it, right? I'm still stunned by Starbucks, right? Their positioning is the biggest f***ing hilarious carnival of horse s*** I've ever seen about all the things that Starbucks isn't, right? They overstate it completely. So for me, the other sin of positioning, other than having too much, is overthinking it, right?

6:56Again, 60, 70 % of it is having the distinctive brand codes that will bring the brand to mind. And the other bit is having the two or three things that, relatively speaking, the consumer wants, and you can promise it more than the competitor.

7:13There you have it. And both Matt and I have taken Mark's mini MBA courses in marketing and brand management. and they're world-class educational programs that definitely enlightened us to some, I guess, less spoken about areas of branding. And yeah, it's definitely recommended. We talk into brand education more in that episode as well, not just positioning and marketing BS, but actual education too. The MBA on branding that Mark led, I did find amazing. And it was a really good kind of course. I thought, oh no, maybe it's going to kind of completely changed everything that I thought. Thankfully, it didn't.

7:51It reinforced it and gave me extra tools and language. And the research and diagnostic section of the brand MBA was really, really helpful. So I, like you, Jacob, would recommend that to anyone wanting to build up their skills. From a very academic perspective as well, there's a lot of academic backing, Harvard reviews and papers from Ehrenberg Bass and all that good stuff. If you want the latest in brand research, definitely check that out. And Mark is known for his strongly backed opinions. And this next clip is talking about brand strategy. So we're stuck into this one. Most brand managers and strategists work on a brand for three or four months or longer and five or six hours a day.

8:36And they miss the point that consumers really don't give a f*** about the brand, think about it for two seconds, have 900 other brands within their focal memory, and they just miss all of that. I'm not exaggerating when I say if you have more than a page for your brand strategy, you've got it wrong, because you have. It takes many pages to get it down to one, but any fool can write a brand positioning that has seven or eight pages in it. Getting it down to a single page is a much bigger challenge. I mean, I did it with LVMH. I mean, these are big brands. We've mentioned Dom Perignon, Louis Vuitton and Sephora.

9:08We had a great 10, 12 year run where all of our brands had the DNA on one side of the page and the brand codes on the other. And we operated these billion dollar majestic things out of that very tight definition. And it was very difficult to get to that place. But once we got to that place, it was much easier to execute. Such a great clip, isn't it? You know, when you hear of Mark's kind of approach, that idea of simplifying the complexity down for customers and also internal teams is so important. And as Mark said, I can see it's so difficult, even in my work as a consultant. People love to make things more complex than perhaps what they need to be.

9:46But it's hard, isn't it, to make decisions and choose what not to do as well as to choose what to do. And someone that talks about this a little bit further is Laura Rees, who has a book called The Strategic Enemy. And we talked into that, and this kind of talks about positioning and just that you need a strategic enemy to offset your values. So should we talk into that one?

10:11Most times you're always talking with the client about, you know, them, them, them, right? They only want to think about themselves yet. Many times it was, what are we going against? How can we contrast this to something else? And that became much more important. And that was very helpful in selling it to them. And not only that, it was witnessing examples. And one of the greatest was the iPod. I remember when the iPod came out and it was truly, you know, very revolutionary, but it faced a very important strategic enemy. Because at the time, all the flash drive players that were cheap, that was dominating.

10:48The Rio. You're probably too young, but I had a Rio. And what did Steve Jobs do? He created a new category called the hard drive music player. It was more expensive. This was going to be hard to sell. But what did he do? He positioned it against the enemy and said, you have a thousand songs in your pocket. That oversimplified message. And it was so powerful. It brought the company back. In 2006, they named it the gadget of the century, which I think was a little bit premature. But it certainly did put Apple back on the path of being one of the most dominant companies in the world. Another Apple reference.

11:27Yeah, I was just thinking I wrote that down. I was like, we're like five minutes in and we've dropped Apple twice. I mean, it's a bit embarrassing, isn't it? Let's be honest. You know, it makes sense. And what Laura was saying there was absolutely solid. I loved her episode and her new book's fantastic on the strategic enemy. It really does give brands a kind of a focus to know what they are not as well as what they are. And as she says, to keep it really tight and simple around that is crucial. And it links to Mark Ritson's point right before. Yeah, simplification. It's hard to do, but once you get there, it's so much easier.

12:00One of the most amazing episodes was actually one of the first ones we did in this season. and we heard from a chap called Steve Noss from an accountancy firm called Cooper Parry that I'd come across in my work and done a bit of work with in the past and that sounds really dull doesn't it like an accountancy firm coming on a branding podcast but what's amazing is that with Cooper Parry is they have such a rebellious approach to accountancy and to how they position their brand in market and so his story and the Cooper Parry brand story I've been wanting to get on the podcast for ages. I always use them as like a little example whenever I do some public speaking about kind of daring to be different and standing out in the sea of sameness.

12:41And he really makes, you know, that episode's phenomenal. So if you're looking to kind of learn, like maybe you're working with a service-based business or in a commoditized marketplace, the first episode, episode 6.1 with Steve Noss is a recommendation from me. But what I wanted to do was really kind of put a highlight on this clip from Steve because he makes a really, really important point around being brave in branding. What makes this happen and how can it come alive? Is it being driven and endorsed from the very top? If it isn't, it will fail. It will singularly fail because, you know, in terms of a structure, it's a fast moving business.

13:26If there isn't the buy-in from the top, everybody begins to question it. Say, well, yeah, you sure? No, I think when I spoke to aid, he wasn't 100 % sure. And suddenly, it's like a deck of cards, it just comes crashing down. I've been lucky enough to have 100 % endorsement from aid and the senior team, right through the journey. It's kind of one of those things where, well, one, it's seriously odd having a head of creative at a firm of accountants. I don't know any others. And that in itself kind of speak the volume for how they, the business, believes branding is central to the growth journey.

14:12that was a really great point i mean steve nos is the head of creative at cooper parry and he tells the story of how they've really got to a position of hyper growth in that sector and how brand and the attention to that that culture of around brand was crucial and how he got buy-in from leadership right so when you get your positioning set you know it's not just a marketing thing is it jacob it's something that the whole business can get behind yeah it comes back to that big idea we're talking about that you can all stand behind. And there's one thing to have the idea though, but how do you actually transcend that through the whole organization?

14:46And that's what our next clip is about. It's about brand alignment and the fact that you have to be honest. So let's get into that. This clip is from Brandon Coleman Jr. and his book, Brand On. This is from episode three. So let's get into it. First thing you need to do is be honest with yourself. I can't tell you how many times C-level people were dodging the truth and they'd try to feed my consulting team and I had a bunch of, you know what, trying to get to an end result on an ad campaign. Doesn't work. If we're going to really truly make a brand alignment correction, we need to be able to tell you your baby is ugly and you need to change his name.

15:24And you need to be able to hear it. And if you can't, we're not going anywhere with this project because great brand alignment have to start at the top, nowhere less. And they have to be championed by that leader. And I'm not talking about the CMO. I'm not talking about the vice president of marketing. I'm talking about they have to be championed by the man or the woman because it has to go that deep into the core and they have to be honest. And if that company is having issues and they're not being honest about those issues, I'll tell them maybe you'll be 60 % successful. You'll never hit a hundred.

15:53And because most of our clients were successful anyway. It was about taking them from hitting at 70 % effectiveness to hitting at 100. And the only way you get to 100 is truth. I love that. I mean, you know, telling someone their baby is ugly is quite a funny analogy. As he says, you have to have that trust to be able to do that with your clients. And talking of babies, not ugly babies, but I think we should give you a little shout up, Jacob, because this year you became a father again, didn't you? So congratulations to you for surviving that and recording with me and our guests sometimes in quite tricky circumstances supporting mrs cass as well along the way so uh so lots of love out thank you appreciate that it is a bit of a circus down here we've got four four muppets running around seven five three and now two months so yeah it's quite a handful but love it uh work from home and you get to see them all the time and i love love the lifestyle so appreciate the shout out matt and yeah likewise so thank you now now now just keep keeping this conversation going i think one of the other really interesting guests i mean we had loads of interesting guests but but another kind of big name that we had i guess you could call him because he's written so many books in this space is is mr david arker who uh who was so so generous to come on the show and to share his thinking and again like you know just going back to this point around getting alignment from leaders from top to bottom around the brand and what it stands for and the value it brings to customers he spoke to us about that as well, didn't he?

17:21Around a strong culture behind the brand. Absolutely. And yeah, we'll talk into that. I have some comments around building the culture with our community as well. So I'll comment on that shortly. Let's play the clip. If you're in a strong culture company, you kind of know what's acceptable and what's encouraged and what's unacceptable and not encouraged. You just have a feel for that. It's not a matter of memorizing a culture manual. I think that if you have a strong culture, you're going to have stories. You're going to probably have symbols like the sledgehammer and the Chinese company. You're going to have visual symbols around.

17:59Maybe it's of the founder or his founder stories. And there's going to be employee stories about like the Nordstroms, like this employee did whatever and everybody thought and he thought or she thought it was okay because that's a culture And as I say, I've seen many times people brand a cultural component, something that employees are expected to do and do. And I think if you look at any strong cultural company, you'll see those kind of things. Yeah, so David talked about branding a cultural component. And recently, I've had to go through this with our little community that we're building, the Brand Builders Alliance.

18:44and we had to really look inwards and understand like what we stood for, how we think and how we act, how we build together. And it comes from the founder, but also it needs to trickle down to your community managers and your team and how everyone should show up. And it was quite an experience just to apply it to your own business and build culture that way. Like I've been a lone wolf for nearly 20 years. So to build this and actually go through the process for your own organization or community, it was kind of illuminating. And we actually did brand that cultural component and we called it the Alliance Way.

19:18And we define like how we act and build together. And that came down to like a slogan or a manifesto that we created, which is no one builds alone, which reflects the culture that we want to have inside the community, that we are in this together and that no one builds alone. We build together. Love that. Yeah, I find it very helpful with my clients when we do stuff like that, because what it brings, right, is alignment and a common understanding and a shared language, which I often say language defines reality, right? So if you've not got the words to describe something as being good or bad, then it's hard to kind of create that as a reality.

19:55So it makes so much sense that you've done that. And, you know, shout out to your community. In my community, the Matt Davies Mastermind, it's utter chaos. So, you know, there's two contrasting offerings. You know, if you like some chaos, come over to mine if you want a bit of order and some sophistication definitely join the brand builders alliance but no in all seriousness like i think community building is crucial for brands however big or small and having that alignment around how people show up and how a culture can be created and what good looks like is so so essential right internally and something worth pointing out there is values so you often talk about values but how that actually translate to behavior is something else so rather than just have values printed on wall like how does that translate to how people behave within an organization i think that's the missing link a lot of people just pass over so just wanted to comment on that yeah yeah no that's a great point and a lot of businesses don't even define that right so so some of the work that i've done with some of my clients is like i see a value it's almost like an agreement it's like the customer values this thing but we value it as well so it's kind of like the the high level contract between the brand and the customer but then internally how do you activate that as you say like what does that mean how does someone show up to show that you value that thing and then the managers or the people managers usually particularly big organizations i love to work on right defining the behavior that's like what you see uh when the value is being enacted right that that demonstrates that that person actually does value that thing and then here's another little tip right just one other thing on top is some organizations you know they have juniors mid-weight and seniors right within their teams and obviously how a value shows up say in a warehouse is going to be quite different to how a value shows up in a in a sales team right so what I try and do is get the people leaders in the different departments to think about in their department how that value should show up and then at what level they expect certain behaviors so a junior let's say the value is innovation a junior might be like my junior in my sales team i just expect them to to come up with some ideas or to float some ideas whereas for a senior level i'm expecting them to drive forward change programs like to really kind of make change happen and there's a difference in how i would expect that behavior to show up at different levels so yeah just some thoughts there you can get really excited on this Matt like to go deeper on activation and culture and values yeah maybe let's do it next season season seven there we are keep an eye out for that folks let's keep moving though because you know yes culture is important internally for a business and a brand to manage but also brands show up in the world don't they and we had an amazing guest on my old friend Cyril Lewis a very thick heavy French accent so apologies on Cyril's behalf for that one if if where we put it on but no i love cyril and he's you know he's done some amazing work he's worked with brands like heineken and we talked a lot about his work and one of the things that he focuses on as a as a brand builder is how do brands show up in culture so let's listen to cyril talking about how he views those things now it means earning your place in people's life not interacting them but being like invited in people wanted you in their life because you add value so it's where they can inspire they can provoke they can support or even comfort that's like powerful in today's world i i talked about where attention is short and also skepticism is very high things are moving like a lot and and people also expect a lot more than brands like today's than it was like 10 years ago so like and and the way they engage with that cultural relevance isn't optional anymore it's existential like brands need to understand people and they need to be wanted otherwise not only they have like to spend like millions and millions to be able like to be seen they're not listened to if you're not in culture you're out of mind that's a strong point hey you're not in culture you're out of mind and yeah it's people and that's what it comes down to we've been talking about you know we're going to get into customers soon but just it's all about people people run brands and yeah what are your thoughts matt yeah customers build brands right you know you've got to put them first like that's the whole um the whole approach to solid brand building it's not about making money the money comes after you've created value so why focus on the outcome why not focus on the input, right?

24:33And the input is, how are you adding value and meaning to people's lives? Cyril's episode's amazing if you want to kind of tuck into that. But we also had another - Episode eight. Episode eight, yeah. Episode eight, absolutely. We also had another amazing guest, right? Midway through the season, episode 10, 6.10. And it was the one and only, very well-spoken Rory Sutherland, who we were so privileged to get on the show. And he's just written a book called Alchemy, if I remember correctly, yes. and so he came on to talk a bit about some of the features in that and it was around problem framing and problem solving so you know making sure you're showing up in culture yes but knowing what problem you solve is really really important as well so let's listen to what rory had to say around that there is this fundamental tendency where i think we take the problem as it is currently defined, we work on it using the approved sequential logical methods proceeding from that definition of the problem.

25:33And whatever is our best shot at it following that process, we there deem to be not only right or interesting or worth testing or worth exploring, we deem it to be the only right answer. And the point I'm making there is that actually, in many cases, the problem isn't as currently defined or by describing the problem in a different way you arrive at a completely different avenue for exploration. That was an amazing episode where we tucked into that idea of problem framing and really rethinking problems in a way that kind of would be of high value to customers rather than just assuming you know what the problem is and assuming therefore you know the obvious solution.

26:19so yeah it was amazing he's there's another clip i'd like to play you which is this one here you know what matt now that we're talking about that i want to play the clip from michael bungay's 10 year on staying curious longer it seems to be i know i'm messing things up matt this is this is what we do this is how we roll let's let's mess it up so why don't you play that one that's a great great shout jacob okay michael bungay's 10 year is an amazing author and speaker he often talks about coaching and mentoring and staying curious and taming the advice monster. And this is what he had to say about staying curious longer.

26:57Can you stay curious a little bit longer? Can you rush to action and advice giving a little bit more slowly? Because most people are advice giving maniac. They're like somebody starts talking and after about 30 seconds, you're like, I already know the answer. I'm now pretending to listen, just waiting to add value to this conversation by telling them what I've already decided. This superpower of actually staying curious just a little bit longer, like 90 seconds longer, can actually revolutionize the experience of a conversation. And then how it's related to something like mentoring, Jacob. Well, mentoring, broadly speaking, is somebody who's walked a similar path to you and it's just a little bit ahead of you going, I've got some understanding of this landscape that you may not have.

27:39Whereas with coaching, you can stay curious a little bit longer with anyone. You don't have to have had particular subject matter expertise to kind of assume that role with them. Such an amazing quote. Just to recap what Rory was saying about, you know, trying to figure out the actual real problem or reframing the problem. You can do that by staying curious longer and, you know, listening. I found that in my coaching, I coach a handful of folks. And yeah, Michael's book on the coaching habit is like so helpful. That was a game changer. Yeah, for sure. like if you are in a leadership position or or looking to coach people definitely grab that book and definitely get that episode which was episode nine of this season season six because he really explains like he did in that clip you know this this kind of problem that we all have which is to jump to offering offering suggestions and solutions before really being curious and and understanding it and also when you're curious as a coach his point is that you get the other person almost to come to different conclusions as well rather than you sort of dictating to them and it's more powerful if they can come to that that conclusion themselves jumping back though to to rory i've got another clip of his that i'd like to play because he really talks about the power of brand and brand fame so i'd like to to listen to this one having a great brand means you get to play the game of capitalism on easy mode.

29:04People inherently trust you more. People are happier basically making an impulse purchase from a brand than they are from someone they've never heard of. So a brand has an effect in lots and lots of ways, which I think grow, by the way, exponentially with brand fame. And we shouldn't be afraid of simply saying a large part of branding is being famous. One of the things I think we tend to do is we tend to have a very Newtonian an approach to investment in brands, which is we define what the brand activity is supposed to do, very narrowly, and we then measure the value of that activity only to the extent that it obtains the objective we defined in advance.

29:41So all other positive spin-off benefits of that investment in branding get lost because we're defining in advance what we want this thing to do. We also tend to measure the value of a brand relative to competing brands, when the real value of a brand consists in having a brand at all. He's a smart dude, that guy. And like you said, well-spoken. And he has like six stories in his head at one time and he can like loop back to all the stories and eventually come back to his point and then return to another story. It's like, he's a smart dude. I love this point there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was fun to keep up with, wasn't he, on that episode?

30:19My brain works like flipping fast, but his was like next level. So I was like, oh, wow. But no, amazing thinker. And definitely check out Rory's episode, a highlight for me from the year. But this idea of positioning and fame and so on, it kind of came up quite a bit, didn't it? So, you know, our next guest that we want to highlight was Todd Irwin. And he talked about depositioning brands, which I found quite an interesting and contrary perspective. What did you think, Jacob? Well, that's what we do on JustBrandon. We have the contrarian opinions come in and we learn different perspectives from different people.

30:52And it can change how we approach things. So let's hear it. I think the problem is, is that agencies are focused too much on differentiation and creativity, and they need to be briefed differently. Some people say to me, well, what does that mean? Creatives go away or creative becomes less important? No, creative actually becomes more important. But it's the way that you brief the creative teams. This goes back to Trout and Reeds, right? The original positioning book, right? Own one singular big idea. That's one of the principles, right? But if you're owning the wrong idea, you're steering the ship the wrong way.

31:28Remember, customers care the most about you solving their problem. Yeah, there are times maybe when you want a different this or a different that, right? But it's proven. The psychology of consumers, the first thing that they're looking for, the first thing they care about, solve the problem. There we have it. so we do have a few more clips on customers and it's it's quite important because this is what brandon's all about what what clip do we have next we had well brandon kim yes yeah i i wanted to sort of give a little shout out to brandon kim and this is kind of a little like a highlight right for anyone working on a brand that wants to be on the show like particularly a brand founder or an owner right if you if you if you're building a brand please reach out to us brandon reached out to me, I think it was, wasn't it, Jacob, with his story from Brevity Bags, where he basically started this business and built this brand and is in the process of building it.