S07.EP01 - Beyond Personal Branding: Debbie Millman on Character, Symbols, and Brand DNA

0:00Brands aren't personal. You can have preferences, but you don't have a personal relationship with a brand that isn't being handed to you. You're not creating a relationship with another living being. You're creating a relationship with a manufactured entity. Hello and welcome to Just Branding. The only podcast dedicated to helping designers and entrepreneurs grow brands. Here are your hosts, Jacob Cass and Matt Davies. All right, before we jump in, if you're serious about mastering branding and building a thriving creative business, the Brand Builders Alliance is for you. Inside, you'll get live masterclasses, mentorship from our eight resident coaches, a stacked resource vault, and a global network of brand builders who actually get it.

1:03If you're done winging it alone and are ready to scale with structure, support, and serious momentum, head over to joinbba.com and get on the waitlist. That's joinbba.com. Hello and welcome to Just Branding. today we're exploring what really lasts in branding and no it is not a personal brand kit it is character and we have none other than the og debbie millman here to set the record straight but for those who do not know debbie debbie is a designer a writer and the host of design matters which is the longest running podcast show on design which was started way back in 2005 that's That's crazy.

1:47Debbie's also co-founded and chairs the Masters in Branding program at the School of Visual Arts in New York City. And before that, she spent two decades at Sterling Brands, leading work across household names like Burger King, Tropicana, and so forth. She's written several books, a couple of my books self back here, including Why Design Matters and Brand Thinking. And in this episode, we're going to get into why personal branding can trap you, what to build instead and how to separate true brand DNA from executional style. And if we can fit it in, maybe discuss why big redesigns often fail and the fastest and most honest way to create meaning.

2:25But before we get into the show, I do just want to say it is an absolute honor for you to be here with us on Just Branding Debbie with Matt and I, especially since we just had you as a panelist at the recent Brand Builder Summit with another brand new legend, David Arker. So a big thank you for coming back and trusting us again. And other than that, welcome to the show, Debbie. Thank you, Jacob. Thank you, Matt. It's really wonderful to be here. Welcome. Welcome. We're excited to have you on. Thank you. I did have a little icebreaker and I just wanted to talk about your home, which is kind of like a part gallery, part sanctuary with little trinkets and collectibles and so forth.

3:03So my question to you, Debbie, and hopefully you haven't had this one before, but what's an object in your home that holds the most meaning for you right now and why? What a good question. Well, it's not really an object, but it's my wife. She's at home right now and she has the most meaning for me. That's no surprise. Does that count? We'll let it pass. Is there any like physical object that maybe not a human that comes to mind? Well, let's see.

3:38So many to choose from. I mean, I'm a bit of a collector. And so I have things from high school, junior high school, elementary school. I have all sorts of photographs of my childhood because I kind of got them all. I received them all from the various parents that came and went. So I think I'm going to leave it at my wife. Okay. All right. Other than that, it's like Sophie's choice. It's so hard to choose. Totally. Well, transitioning from that, you once called brand manufactured meaning. I think we talked about this a little bit with David. Do you just want to unpack that a little bit for us and perhaps share like an honest way to manufacture it fast, but like without faking it?

4:30Well, I believe that brands are manufactured meaning because brands don't exist unless we create them and imbue them with meaning. And so we can create just about anything now, but in order for it to make sense to anyone, we have to give it a place. We have to give it attributes, a name. And it's only recognizable and understandable when there's consensus that's built around it. So I could create what I hope is a brand and give it a name and a positioning and attributes and values and a vision, but nobody believes or buys into it literally and figuratively, and then it dies. So there hasn't been a sense of consensus building with that meaning.

5:25Brands don't exist on their own. They aren't self-directed. And so in order for us to be able to construct something, we have to give it meaning. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. Matt actually has his definition of branding talks about meaning. meaning yeah so i always think well just a definition that i think is helpful is that a brand is the meaning that other people attach to you and your offer right and branding is the attempt to manage that meaning right so exactly what you're saying it doesn't exist no no i don't think i don't know i don't think we're saying the same thing can you say that first part again so brand is the meaning that other people attach to you and your offer i believe that branding is the belief in the meaning that you construct.

6:12That other people believe what you determined that meaning to be, but they don't independently create that meaning. They either believe it or they don't believe it. And so the process of manufacturing meaning is the ability that we have to project that meaning into something. the belief of that meaning is what other people bring to the table sure sure exists in their hearts and minds right i think it exists in their brains and then moves into the other organs but yes mind yes it exists in the mind and then moves into every other place and you've also called personal branding like an oxymoron. So why do you see that?

7:06How is that limiting for brands? Let's take it from the logic of or the agreement that brands are manufactured meaning. If brands are manufactured meaning, then why would anyone want to or seek to be manufactured? shirt. Humans can own brands and create brands and manage brands and represent brands. But to be a brand is a fixed moment in time. People don't like when brands change very much, but humans change all the time. We want to be able to change and grow and develop. We also sometimes have missteps. And the only way to be able to really grow is to take risks. Brands tend to be very risk adverse.

8:00Most shareholders would say manage your risk. People want to be able to be free and be self-directed. And brands don't have that ability. So once you put yourself into the brand format and say you want to be a personal brand, you're essentially taking all of the person out of yourself in order to be this fixed entity that people will be able to understand. And I think that's limiting. I think people can, as you mentioned earlier, build their reputation, build their character, become known for certain ways of behaving or creating. And to limit that to a brand feels like you're shortchanging everything that we are given in the magic of being human.

8:56So we often talk about definitions on here. So maybe before we tuck into the other option, like how would you define personal branding then? Well, I don't know that I would define it as much as describe it. And I would describe it as an oxymoron because brands aren't personal. You can have preferences, but you don't have a personal relationship with a brand that isn't being handed to you. You're not creating a relationship with another living being. You're creating a relationship with a manufactured entity. So if you want to call that a relationship, you can, but it's really more of an experience than a relationship because it's not two sided.

9:51It's only one sided. It's you and your relationship with this thing. How is that a relationship? And that that alone sort of proves my point. You know, it's not something that's tucking you in at night, even if it's a blanket. It's not doing the tucking. That's an interesting way to look at it. Personal branding is like, it's very trendy right now. And it's in the limelight. And everyone's like, build a personal brand. But with this kind of context. Build your personal character. And you don't even need to say personal character because character is personal. And building your reputation. I'm not saying that you don't want to necessarily have a platform.

10:32I hate that word. So that people understand what you believe in and what your point of view is. and even what you stand for. I don't have any issue with that. But the notion of being a brand takes so much of the humanity out of the experience of doing something that it's a bit flummoxing to me that somebody would want to be a brand, a manufactured brand. And because brands are not self-directed, kind of feels like sad, actually. So what's the better path for someone that is trying to grow an audience, for example? By mastering your work, by providing a benefit to your audience, by offering a point of view that might enlighten or inspire them.

11:24And are there any principles or boundaries when it comes to character you mentioned that you would put when building up that character on your platform? Well, I think that that's the key is having principles that are your own. And so I would suggest, you know, telling the truth, living up to your word, being honest. Well, that's telling the truth. So that doesn't really count twice. Offering something that is beneficial to others that isn't necessarily beneficial to yourself. Like you're offering something with no expectation of return. And that's what makes the whole notion of our experience with brands such a slippery slope.

12:11Because if you have a brand whose goal, its goal, the owner's goal is for it to be profitable, then whose needs are you putting first? Are you putting the owner's needs, the brand company's needs or the consumer's needs. And depending on the structure of the ownership of that brand. So for example, if it's a publicly traded company that owns that brand, there is a fiduciary responsibility by that company to provide a return on investment to any of the shareholders that have invested in that company. And so once you have to start negotiating between what's best for the shareholder and what's best for the consumer, you kind of know where that pendulum is going to land.

13:04And so that's what makes the whole brand human experience or relationship so troublesome. Do you think that depends on how short term or how long term the owner is thinking, right? Because it seems to me that we should always, I mean, I'm a brand builder, right? And I would always say, even if I'm asked to be doing things that are of value to the owner of the brand. Look, this is going to potentially damage you long term, right? Because it's short term thinking and you really want to build some longevity and put the customer at the heart of everything you're doing because then the money will flow later.

13:39But, you know, you do get these tensions sometimes where everybody's short term. Let's get it over the line now. Let's get ship it, ship it, ship it. Yeah, that's the financial world we're living in. I mean, that's being driven by Wall Street, not by the consumer. And look, I love brands. I don't have any issue with brands representing certain belief systems that the company has or making me feel better or giving me a sense of confidence if I'm engaging with it. But I know these things and I know what the brand is doing. And so for me, it's I'm opting in with the full knowledge of all of this, where I think things get a little bit dangerous is when people don't know and when people aren't necessarily opting in willingly, but opting in for social cachet that they're not fully aware of what is actually happening in that experience.

14:43Debbie, before you said something about, you know, return on growth. And I was just wondering, like, when you're growing an audience, your platform, there is part of it where you're like, you're putting on a persona, right? Like this kind of public theatre. And this is always this challenge of like, how much theatre do I put into it? Like, where do you draw the line? And how do you find that, you know, the fact that you're building an identity, but it's like, it's still a construct in a way? Yeah. Yeah. And this is the issue that I'm struggling with now in terms of how much do you put out there that is about you as opposed to whatever it is you're making, because there is this tendency to sugarcoat one's life and experience in social media.

15:32And I don't know very many people that go to social media and hope scroll instead of doom scroll or come away feeling better about themselves because they're looking at tens or hundreds of people that are all in their own assessment, living better lives. and I'm struggling with how much energy and effort I put into social media because it's also a construct and it's beginning to feel really icky and I'm not exactly sure where it's all going in and out but I'm not aware of anybody that's like social media is really making me a happier person you know in Australia they just banned it for people under 16 the first country so yeah it says something about it yeah I also struggle with how much to show like half my phone photos is just my kids and you know that's where I spend the rest of my life so it's like I want to share parts of that but then it's like it's their life so do you share that or like how do you build a connection with other people that may have similar interests like whether it be surfing or cooking or collectibles in your home like there is definitely a line and it's that's always the a big challenge of like, what is my personal brand and how much do I share of that, of that construct?

16:52I've changed my algorithm really well. When I go to Instagram now, I'm fed peanuts, animations, little bit of cooking and fitness. That's good. I like that. And of course, politics and the politics would depress me no matter what. And so whether I see it on the New York Times dot com or CNN dot com or Instagram, it's six of one, half a dozen of the other. I'm very cognizant of trying to stay up to date with what's happening. And that then becomes, you know, the de facto position because you have to look at it because you want to know what's happening in order to be a responsible citizen. And you're very active with the politics side of things where Matt and I, we definitely stay away from all of that on here.

17:43So it's just like, you have to choose where you want to focus and you're not going to be for everyone. You're going to lose followers no matter what. Oh, definitely. When I post, I go on these like Instagram story rants and I don't say anything like verbally, like I'm not writing. I'm just reposting and reposting and reposting all the other things that other people say far better than I do. and yeah I tend to lose a lot of followers but you know if they don't know me by now they're never gonna know me so do you ever tend to share any sort of stuff outside of work on on your social channels Debbie like you know family or yeah you do and how do you find that that works do you find that that does build up rapport with certain people and and connects with them hmm let's see I don't know how much I know on Facebook I do family stuff because we're all connected and it's also a limited audience because it's just people that I follow and follow me Instagram what Instagram what do I do on Instagram Instagram I do talk about design matters a lot I brag about my wife I talk about projects but it feels very one-sided anytime I I've ever posted feeling down, I'm feeling insecure.

19:02Then I get like 45 phone calls from people that want to cheer me up or are worried. And I'm glad that they feel that strongly about me, but I don't want to worry them. If I'm that down, I am not going to go to Instagram. I'm going to try to get a booking with my therapist. So it's hard because then you're like, oh, am I humble bragging or am I outright bragging or am I performing? And that's what I said. It's like I really struggle with how much of this really matters and counts. And yet, you know, when you're doing a project for somebody, they want you to do that. Or if it's Giving Tuesday, then the organizations that I feel really strongly about or I'm working with, you know, want me to post something.

19:50Or if it's a bill that I want to get through Congress, of course, I'm going to put something like that up there, but it's a struggle. It is.

20:07All right, Debbie, well, we're going to talk into brand DNA, which is something that's a bit of like a non-negotiable in some ways. So how do you separate brand DNA from executional style when you start a project? Well, deconstructing the whole question. Yes, it's a loaded question, yes. Well, maybe let's start with a definition of brand DNA. I mean, I just love how we all, as humans, we anthropomorphize our pets, we anthropomorphize our brands. You know, we are meaning makers and yet we elevate. And there's no question I do this. My dog is a person with fur. You know, there's no question about it.

20:51And, you know, I wish Max could talk. Roxanne and I are always like, what do you think he's thinking about? And I'm like, you know, cloud bubble bone. But we always give him so much more credit than what he's likely really thinking about. And we do the same thing with brands. And in fact, you know, in the 1920s, that's what marketers were doing. They were creating these characters to be able to differentiate one brand from another. That's why you see so many serial characters to be able to appeal to kids to give them that sense of what that DNA was or is. And we did that with so many brands. You think about the Little Morton Salt Girl or even with Sinclair Dinosaurs for selling gasoline.

21:40I mean, really? I don't know if that's a brand that you guys have in your countries, but we have. But there's so many brands, the Midas Man, the Michelin Man. I mean, there's so many. And I think that we do that in an effort to create more of what you call that relationship. Like, oh, I have a relationship with a man who represents paper towels, strong paper towels, the brawny man. Now, is that a good thing or a bad thing? I don't know. I don't know. I think about these things all the time, of course. Sometimes I think it's fun. Sometimes I think it's a little weird. Sometimes I think both. But yes, there is a DNA or the building blocks.

22:29Maybe that's a better way of putting it. the building blocks of developing brand meaning. And I think if I understand the question, those building blocks should be embedded in any stylistic choice that's made for a brand. Although I would say that the building blocks is more like the sort of soul and the style is more like the clothing. So is DNA and soul interchangeable for you? Well, they are in this realm and in this conversation. But again, we're conflating consciousness, which is what humans have, with something that is not alive. And so, you know, we're imbuing the soul into a fixed object without actual consciousness.

23:27You know, that's the big difference for me between this notion of a personal brand. Well, you have consciousness, right? So you're making choices. Brands don't make choices. People make choices for brands. Yeah, so interesting to think like that because I've never really thought of it like that. But that point that you just made at the end, it seems to me that people manage brands, right? So they, leadership teams, marketing teams, et cetera. And all the way through an organization, when you think about it, you know, customer experience, the way that people, you know, are hired and all of that stuff.

24:00It's a management of a particular type of person that they want in the organization to represent that. And then at the very top, the top people are making the decisions to govern that brand. So there's kind of like this group think. So you could argue, and I don't know if I'm brave enough to argue with you yet, Debbie, but, you know, we could argue that the brands are… Let me tell you something. Let me insert something right here. One of my exes said, Debbie is always persuasive, but she's not always right. Lovely, lovely. But, you know, anyway, my point is, right, you could argue that the brands have a kind of a group think kind of scenario, right?

24:38Which, if it's manufactured in a way that everybody's on board and aligned with, that group think can direct that brand and behave as if it is a singular entity, almost a person, right? They can all be in concert with each other. I mean, that's what Apple is always trying to do with in the way that they manage brand teams or the way brand teams manage their brands. Right. Yeah. So there is this weird kind of relationship between brands and people, you know, like Apple. I expect Apple to behave a certain way, even though I know it's not a person. I kind of get the embodiment of Steve Jobs somehow throughout all the touch points.

25:20And then when I go into a genius bar store or whatever it is, you know, I expect the person there to behave a certain way. And if I speak to them on the phone or I put an order through. So there's sort of expectations built over years of a reputation. Yes, not by one person, but by the people that have managed that over time. So, yeah, that's an interesting thought to ponder. Like, I guess up and coming brands, they're kind of looking for how do we get that group think so that we're all aligned and it makes sense. and it's of high consumer worth and we can actually build something that looks and feels and has that longevity.

25:55And I guess that's what Jacob's sort of asking there. Like, how do they start to do that? Like, how do we get to that consensus to that point where there's structure in place to do that? But maybe there isn't structure. No, there is. That's positioning. What you described is positioning. That is brand positioning. It is creating a foundation that everyone can then work from. So it's the foundation of everything that exists in the world of this brand. And then that the positioning is the journey to becoming a brand. And then the brand exists when there's consensus about what that positioning is.

26:35So you and I, we all three of us believe the same thing about this brand and that construct that we believe is manufactured by the very people that you just described. Right. Yeah. Well, I think to go a little bit deeper on this, that may be an example, like legacy brands I know you often talk about. Is there any legacy brands that you think worth discussing about, like how they've managed change, they've kept the DNA there, but they've reinvented themselves to become more modernized, I guess? Well, I mean, I think you just mentioned Apple's done a really amazing job over the last 40 years, growing from essentially a souped up word processor to a way in which we could make design to the way in which we now engage with our devices.

27:28And that's almost unthinkable. Almost unthinkable. Do you think that DNA has always been there or they've like evolved and like protected parts of it and added parts or removed parts? Or like, What are your thoughts on that? They had a very strong leader for a very long time. Actually, they had this really incredible triumvirate. You know, they had Steve Jobs, Johnny Ive, and Evans Hankey. So I think that the three of them were able to construct and manufacture not only an idea, but the delivery of that idea and the dependence of that idea that could be relied on. And so it was innovation, brilliant innovation, world-changing innovation, world-changing marketing, world-changing creative.

28:23Perfect storm. And you said something there that it's actually living that idea. And from the leadership, It's going through the whole organization. So the idea lives independently. So the DNA is like trickled throughout the organization. I think the idea is protected by the leadership of the company. And if it's protected and guarded and treated in like the Holy Grail that it is for the organization, then it can be leveraged and grown and extended in ways that the audience, consumers, people really love and enjoy. Because the categories of word processor through to telephone, camera, calculator, everything else that's in this device, there's a lot of steps there.

29:17and that's pretty brilliant. I thought that what Stanley did with their cup was really smart. And because it was so smart, I was really, really excited to see what was going to happen next and how they were going to leverage that into continued growth. And I'm really, really surprised that they haven't done that. Well, let's talk about brands that fail. Like Apple's a great example of one that succeeded and innovated and all of that. but like are there any brands that you think have failed that are worth discussing or any patterns that you see like with large redesigns in particular? Well any redesign is always an interesting thing to talk about based on what the response within the culture is to that redesign.

30:04I don't necessarily think that redesigns fail because of bad design because there's a lot of bad design out there. And there's a lot of brands that are badly designed that do perfectly well. I think it's really more about the launch strategy that fails or succeeds because nobody cares about redesigns except designers. Like people don't go to the shelf and think, hmm, let's see what's new today. Trouble Cat has been redesigned. Cracker Barrel has been redesigned. The Gap has been redesign. Yay! People don't like change. People don't like uncertainty. People don't like when things aren't predictable.

30:48And one of the most predictable things that exists in our lives are supermarkets. And you go in, you know where the produce is, you know where the checkout lines are, you know how to navigate this space. And when things change, most people see change skeptically and they view change as something that they need to protect themselves from. So, oh, if this is different, is the recipe different? Is it going to cost more? Am I getting less? And brands have really failed consumers in that regard. Quite a number of brand redesigns are created to obscure the fact that the carton is smaller or the container is smaller.

31:32And so they're actually paying more for something that they used to get at a certain price. And so there's a little bit of smoke and mirrors there. Things like that are really terrible to do because you're eroding whatever trust somebody might have had in something that they bought over and over and over and over for years or decades or a lifetime. time so the thing that people don't like is when change is made without understanding why and if they understand why then it helps to understand that there was a reason for this change yeah i was just going to say what you described there i don't know if you've come across this phrase but in the uk there's this massive phrase going around called shrinkflation right so it's the it's the idea of exactly what you were saying like we pay a bit more right for inflation but we'll pay for a shrinked products as well so it's like this is happening there's loads of stuff on social media so check that yogurt yogurt containers yeah that's it that's criminal it's really bad shrinkflation there we are you heard it first but talking about yogurt actually what came to mind when you were talking about this the strategy behind the relaunch and the campaign behind it.