S07.EP04 - Designers Don’t Build Brands with Kevin Finn

21:27Jacob Cass:They know it. So you might say to yourself, I hate fast food. I never eat it because I'm healthy or whatever, but I know McDonald's, right? So it's got this rent-free space in your head where you have all the associations that you You said that is a benchmark in the market or in the community that I associate is elevated enough because of consistency, exposure, awareness. That is the benchmark in that field. And that might be broad because it's McDonald's, but it might be very personal and small when it is a smaller geographic location. and it might be a very hyper-localized business, the people in that community go, oh, yeah, that would be what we would term a brand in our relevance here in our world, in our community.

22:13Jacob Cass:So I think there's a problem with us if we start to go, your life cycle is idea, then it builds into a business, and then at this point you'll become a brand. I think it's more a mindset. I think it is more an awareness. I think it is back to this recognizable reputation where enough people go, I see you over others. Another really quick example would be when the iPod came out with Apple. I love this phrasing with the iPod. I can't remember where someone said it to me or I read it somewhere, and it was, there's the iPod and other MP3 players. I think that's when you become a brand, when you're identified as the benchmark, the innovation, the game changer that consistently delivers.

23:07Jacob Cass:And then you compare that to everyone else in the market who you might not even know their names. You go, there's other MP3 players, but it's the iPod. So I think that's why we have this problem with when does a business become a brand? And I think the way around that is to go back to this idea of recognizable reputation, if we stop thinking about the word brand and start thinking about how can we get a reputation, first of all, and how can we help get that as recognized as possible, the way I see it is that, well, the byproduct, a bit like what Martin Nume was saying to Matt, the byproduct is that a brand may emerge.

23:45It may not, but that doesn't take away from the fact

23:48Jacob Cass:that you could have a brand mindset. your brand mindset could be let's build a reputation that is tangible and solid and consistent and let's try and make that as recognizable as possible through media through associations through word of mouth through branding and comms and advertising but let's make that as recognizable as possible that's probably in my mind enough for us to say that could be interpreted as a brand and i don't think apple goes around saying we're a brand or Supreme says we're I think they go we're Supreme we're Apple we're Chobani so I think we're probably better served as an industry as well as a business community to move over to how do we create this recognizable reputation and sort of dispense a little bit with this idea of brand and I know why it's there because we have built it up that brands are valuable and when you talk about brands, Wally Olin once said this to me, the most important thing to a brand is money.

24:51Jacob Cass:So I understand why any business out there would want to equate themselves to a brand because they see that as a pretty fast track to money, return, financial valuation. When in fact, as all three of us probably know here is that in order to become a brand, you have to earn that. Yeah. And that can put a lot of pressure on you. So wouldn't it be more interesting if we start to say how do we build this recognizable reputation because that can become valuable and people can stick a brand level on if they want but you take the pressure off and also it helps our field to say and to your point earlier matt if we stay on your journey with you business to help make your reputation which you have control on if we can help make that more recognizable then we have a long-term relationship, conversation, dialogue, relationship, partnership, rather than give us a brief to do a six-month marketing program or design system and boom, boom, we're out of here because we're on to the next project, but we built that brand.

25:52Jacob Cass:It's undermining us.

25:54Kevin Finn:If you're serious about mastering branding and building a thriving creative business, the Brand Builders Alliance is for you. Inside, you'll get live masterclasses, mentorship from our eight resident coaches, a stacked resource vault, and a global network of brand builders who actually get it. If you're done winging it alone and are ready to scale with structure, support and serious momentum, head over to joinbba.com and get on the wait list. That's joinbba.com.

26:24Matt Davies:Yeah, there's a lovely expression that I like to use. I think there's a chat called Alex Smith that mentioned it to us when he came on and he called it unique value, right? And I know it's beyond that. And to your point, I like recognizable reputation because there's this awareness piece as well that comes with it. But that idea of what can I get from you as a business that I can't get from anywhere else, that's how you start building positive, assuming it's of value to the audience. So that's great. I just think we need this way of thinking 100%. Like it's just particularly, I guess, if you take a step back as just a classical designer and you look at what's happening with AI, right?

27:06Matt Davies:Like, you know, not be long. And I know people are doing it now, but, you know, at the startup phase where they're scrapping around for every penny or cent or whatever you have in your part of the world. Yeah.

27:17Jacob Cass:Right. Yeah.

27:18Matt Davies:If a founder can go to ChatGTP and say, this is my business idea. Give me seven options. Right. For a new logo design and color palette and some general conditions from my guidelines and hits enter and bang, seven appear within three minutes. Now, I know all the diehards amongst us will be like, oh, it'll never do what I do. Yeah, but if everybody's just equating the brand with a logo, that is what's going to happen. And the thing that I've sort of been saying for a long time now is that you could have the world's most greatest design logo, but still not have a brand as far as I'm concerned, because of all the things that you've been saying, Kevin.

27:55Matt Davies:So I think that's something to bear in mind.

27:58Jacob Cass:Well, here's a really interesting way of thinking. I agree totally. And we're at fault for telling businesses that that's where the brand is, right? You know, so you're right. We undermine ourselves because AI can do it in five minutes. And all the diehards, as you said, will get up in arms. And the problem there is that when we say we're brand builders, if we do branding, and if we say AI can't do what we do, this is all about us. And those businesses couldn't give a s*** about us. So, you know, suck it up, really. And unfortunately, that is the case, right? The other side of it is that with AI coming in, with the way that we have educated those business owners, we have made ourselves in their minds irrelevant.

28:46Jacob Cass:And if you look at our entire field over the space of about five years, we have helped to create a narrative about ourselves in the minds of these business owners that we are probably irrelevant or we're inflating our costs because we could get this for way cheaper. Why would we pay you? right so i have a thing that i talk to business owners about and communities and whoever where if you take most and this is in the branding space too this is in the narrative building space if you take most businesses out in the world they'll go out there and say we have we're innovators we we've got this heritage and this legacy we're awesome we've got this unique offer we've got this value proposition we have this amount of staff we've got here's all of our case studies we're known in the field.

29:37Jacob Cass:We're fantastic. Choose us, not them. That's what a lot of businesses tend to do. How do we get above the noise? They think we add to the noise because we got to shout louder. What I say to them is that might be beautifully crafted text. It might be very genuine too. It might be heartfelt. You believe in this and it's true. It's factual and you put it out in the world. And I literally tell them, I'm not kidding you, I literally tell them, I'm sorry, but people don't give a shit about your story. And they look at me as though, so what do we do? And I said, the only thing that they're interested in is where does your story show up in their story?

30:26Jacob Cass:So you need to go out into the world and say, I am going to tell you, my customer, my client, my market, I'm going to tell you your story. I'm going to tell you that this is your life. This is your world. And I'm going to tell you that because I need you to know that I understand it, that I know what you're facing. And then when I tell that story, I'm going to say, and here's where we show up. Just over here. We shop here in a relevant way in your world. The other way, which is the traditional way, is here's our world. We're amazing. This is what we do. Like, why would you not even look at us?

31:06Jacob Cass:And where you shop is you give us your time and your money. That's the flip. Now, we need to do that as a field. We need to, when you've got AI coming at us and you've got shrinking budgets and you've got all kind of vulnerabilities and the disruption, we're going out there saying, we're amazing. Pick us over AI because AI can't do what we do. We're incredible. Look at all our case studies. What we need to do is say, I understand what you're facing. And you might have a better success rate if we have a long-term relationship. And we can use AI, but we're in the mix because we are relevant. And the way we can do that, and we might be going a bit of a sidebar, but it is related.

31:54Jacob Cass:I hear it all the time when people in our field go out and go, AI is a tool. I mean, it's like Photoshop. It's a tool. And I'm like, I'm biting my knuckles going, the clue's in the name. It's artificial intelligence. And we, as a result of saying it's a tool, are making ourselves irrelevant because a business owner will go, awesome, I can learn that tool. I don't need you. what we need and it's a language thing so i'm a visual designer but i'm a word person if we replace the word tool with collaborator it keeps us in the equation so if we go and say yes we collaborate with ai instead of yeah we use ai as a tool so this goes back to how do we position ourselves in the minds of the people who traditionally hire us in a relevant way that says, I understand your world and what you're facing, but here's where I can add value.

32:48Jacob Cass:And it's not us saying, oh, we build brands. Like, they'll just laugh at us in two years. Probably still, probably are at the moment.

32:58Matt Davies:Does that make sense? Yeah, 100%. I used to run a design studio many years ago now, back in the day, and I've probably told this story a little bit, but we used to have a whole team of people that would code by hand. right? We were only a small studio. So we did the creative identity stuff. And then we had a, as I say, a small team and they would literally do CSS, HTML, line by line. And they would build like five, six, seven, in those days, like six page websites. Right. Great. But then what we saw from a business perspective was Wix, Squarespace.

33:33Jacob Cass:Yeah. Yeah. WordPress.

33:35Matt Davies:WordPress. Yeah. All of these other ones entering the market. And we were like, oh, nevermind. They can never really do what we do you know our code is clean and everything's perfect but as you rightly say a business owner does not care particularly at the early stages yet you know later of course they won't want you know something scrappy at the bottom so if you are operating as an industry it's like a pyramid isn't it right there's only a very few number of global agencies at the very top that can get the big work but it just means the bottom of the the pack just shuffle it just they just become irrelevant and they go right so i found that with my agency it became obviously impossible to sell that who would who now would spend five grand on a six-page website like no one's going to do that because you can literally spin one up yourself for 5.99 a month right like you just wouldn't do that so the point is that and if you want to go back even further in time we could talk about the luddites and the print yeah industrial revolution which i won't bore everybody with but yeah same mindset things are shifting and i like the way you talked about relevance there so someone sat there let's imagine there's a listener and we've completely shattered their world right they entered this conversation all happy and now we've completely yeah their life let's build things up a bit kevin right so what would your advice be you've mentioned language but let's just say you've got your average i don't know designer say they've been in the field for five years what would your advice be to them to stay relevant in this world that we're facing yep i have a simple piece of

35:04Jacob Cass:advice first of all i'll apologize for shattering your dreams but unfortunately it's the inconvenient truth as we would say but here's the opportunity and here's what excites me if we look at where we as a field have positioned our services our offer our talent or whatever we want to call it I would say if you're in that basket, you're not thinking big enough. And therein lies the opportunity and the excitement to actually fully understand what role this branding kind of program platform does for a business. And then start thinking, well, what else in design can I be involved with? And I'll say this because it's something that I think is relevant to where we are right now.

35:57Jacob Cass:Years ago, I was chatting with Edward de Bono. And for your audience, if they don't know who Edward de Bono was, check him out. He was probably the godfather of design thinking before it was a label. Six thinking hats. I know from the six thinking hats. Yes. Yeah. Six thinking hats, lateral thinking. He created the phrase lateral thinking, right? So he was the forefather of how to teach thinking as a skill, right? It is incredible what he did. And I asked him, I had the fortune of working with him and chatting with him. I said, give me a definition of design. And he gave me three words. Design is deliberate.

36:34Jacob Cass:Now, if you look at that, and just what I said earlier, that we're not thinking big enough, we build brands and branding programs. If we go design is deliberate, well, we can now frame that with the businesses that we work with and say, whether it's an app or a logo or a business model or an economy, design is a set of deliberate steps to an outcome. And along the way, we can get multiple people in to help realize that design. So I'm looking at design big, right? I'm looking at it in terms of how we can use what we've learned in the trenches or in education and then lift our eyes a bit further up and say, well, I'm a designer.

37:29Jacob Cass:Therefore, I'm in the design world. And if I'm thinking design is deliberate, I can go and have a conversation with a business and say, what are your greatest challenges? Well, is it a supply chain problem? Is it a distribution problem? And now together, let's design a solution for that. And then we can plan that design out. And that takes us out of this, what I would call within the age of AI, a narrower, smaller conversation about what design is, that we're inflating to, oh, it's a brand, a build brand. You're not thinking big enough. If you step out of that and you say, how can we now have conversations with businesses that we work with in a relevant way that says, we'll just use whatever design is required.

38:20Jacob Cass:And I am a designer and I will help work with you to design that outcome or that solution. That's a big conversation.

38:30Matt Davies:100%. Love that. Love that. And we should be, we're prepared for that, right? Designers are used to stepping into the unknown. I just say like no designer will know the end result for any project that they go through at the start and that terrifies the heck out of most people but we're trained in it like we understand this is a mindset like as you say it's a series of deliberate decisions iteration and testing and sharing and seeing responses that messiness we're kind of used to right and I found that as I have sort of gone on that journey that you've described and I would just say to folks anyone sat in there thinking sitting there thinking oh I couldn't do that you can you just have to go to work on yourself you have to yes you have to understand different language you have to kind of step out of the comfort zone and try new things but trust me you have got the skills to do this if you are a good designer the other thing too is we have to

39:22Jacob Cass:stop being defensive so when I look at how the business world works and in the book there's a chapter called two types of thinking the business world thinks in analytical thinking and that is generally what has been so what has been done what has worked what hasn't worked what do we need to they're looking backwards and they kind of go okay now we have a bit of a sense of what worked but didn't work we've got some patterns and great designers come in and they say what if so we're thinking in the future right and we're saying there's all these potential things that we could look at and create out of nothing and sort of pull ideas in from experience and other things and we can create things and what happens is that there's a divide between those two the analytical thinkers say well this is tried and tested and works and what you're saying is risky and what designers are saying is yeah well that's dull and boring and it's going to be repeating you're not going to innovate and i think this is what i said about being defensive designers need to go analytical thinking is super important and we should be in there helping to leverage that into the future and if we can act that way and speak that way then we're going to try and reassure and convince the analytical thinkers to say that what you do is super important but it won't move the needle it won't get you to where you are if you want to be seen as an innovator so how about we take all of that into the future and look at what if and we have a problem in our in the business community and in the design field where we get defensive when we're not allowed to play with our toys.

40:58Jacob Cass:And we're like, what do you mean you can't? We're creative and wild and chaos. It's wonderful and stuff happens. And the business world is like, that's just, it's not grounded enough for us. And you are not reassuring us that's going to get us where we need to get to. We all need to work together. And we need to think design with a big D, deliberate design over the long term. We need to start talking about recognizable reputations that build reputations around whatever it might be they want to do, whether it's innovation, whether it's about climate, whether it's about finance, whatever it might be, and then make that recognizable over the long term using both analytical and design creative thinking.

41:38And as a field, we've got to stop getting defensive on AI can never replace us

41:45Jacob Cass:and why aren't you letting us play with the toys, business, you just don't understand it, and all that kind of stuff you see all the time. And we need to just get a little bit of humility. And then I think we can add value in those conversations.

41:59Kevin Finn:Brilliant. Wow. Thank you. So with that all said, I'm just thinking back to our conversation in the beginning. Should agencies stop saying we build brands if this is the case?

42:09Jacob Cass:Yeah. Yeah, I do. I think if they want to have that sentence, and I've actually had people say to me, if I stop saying that, I won't get business. So I get it. And I know your listeners might be going, oh, God, I can't not say that, right?

42:24Kevin Finn:We may have to change our podcast name, Kevin.

42:27Jacob Cass:No, no, no, no, no, no. You can keep that sentence. You can keep that value offer or proposition. But I would recommend you just add in a word or two, which goes back to what we were just saying about this, you know, breakdown, the divide between analytical thinking and business thinking and design thinking and creative thinking. And we just say, we help you build your brand. We assist in how you build your brand. Now, that alone, they will go, okay, so I have a role to play in this. And you go, of course you do, because you've got to deliver on it, number one. And number two, when I'm saying we're going to assist you on that, you open up the door to start to educate and explain that this is, if you want to become a brand or if you want to have a recognizable reputation, This is going to happen over the long term and things are going to shift and context will change.

43:20Jacob Cass:And we would like to be there with you along the way. So how about we start talking about a long term relationship with you in order for you to do that? And all of a sudden we're shifting out of this defensive. We build brands and then we're replaced by AI and we're moving into what you were saying earlier, Matt, about having more strategic conversations that actually gives those business owners the credit that they deserve. that they have to build and deliver on this on a day-to-day basis. But if we design ourselves out of the equation on a six-month marketing design program, then we're undervaluing ourselves and we're removing our relevance.

43:57Jacob Cass:Whereas if we add in, we help assist you build your brand, that's a conversation you can expand into a long-term negotiation. Also, it's not a radical change in terms of how a business might be talking. You just say, no, no, let's just be real. and use common sense and respect these people and say, we assist or we help. And here's how we do it.

44:25Kevin Finn:Well, just shifting the conversation a little bit here, you have a chapter around six deceptively difficult questions. So this is for business leaders. So what are some of the questions that business leaders avoid?

44:42Jacob Cass:Yeah, so if we've got time, I'll run through quickly because it will make sense. Over my career, I've been asking a lot of questions like a lot of designers do, and I've been looking at what's important to businesses and where the value is and how things move the needle. So the first question is for a business, maybe even for a designer. First question is, what value do you provide? That is not easy to answer. So you've got to look at that, and it's not value for money. It's like, what value? Where's the relevance? Why am I kind of, in your mind, worth talking to? So what value do you provide?

45:16Jacob Cass:The second question then is, what are you saying? So back to what we were just discussing about how businesses or designers might change what they say. So what is our core message? So if we know the value, question two is, what are we saying? The third then is, who are you talking to? Goes back to what we said earlier about if you're going to be customer centric, who are you talking to? Now, a lot of people will say, everyone. And you go, so, and I've had this before in businesses that I work with. I say, so, oh, great. You talk to everyone. So you're talking to three-year-olds and 96-year-olds?

45:49Jacob Cass:And they go, of course not. So who are you talking to? And in not demographics, what kind of person? Is it a progressive person? Is it a conservative person? Is it a climate person? Is it a finance? What kind of person are you talking to? And then you can see, does your message resonate with that kind of person? Fourth question then is what channels are you using? And we all know that I use EDMs and I use this, that, and the other, and we do cold calls. Have you asked them what channel they prefer to be used? How do they like to be contacted? Where do they hang out? So what channels are you using to get to them?

46:25Then the fifth question is where our egos kick in. Fifth one is can you live up to it?

46:32Jacob Cass:And people go, yeah, of course. Okay, so where's the proof? Where is the proof that you can live up to what you say? and if you got it great and then the last question is why should anybody care now that stops people usually because they start racing and scrambling to getting to this defensive mechanism and mindset and go oh because this is and why those six questions work is that the answer to question six is the same answer to question one people care because of the value you provide the relevance that you bring to their life. If you remove that relevance, they would miss you. If you remove that value, they would miss you.

47:13Jacob Cass:On the other hand, if you remove that and you disappear tomorrow and no one cared, you haven't done those six questions correctly. Now, I've been in situations, I'm not kidding you, where I've run workshops with businesses, pretty successful and pretty high-end businesses, where I ran a six-questions exercise and the response from the business owners was, they're the hardest best questions we've ever had because we don't ask ourselves these questions so they're the six questions that if you run through them and i recommend if you're going to use them you run through them a few times not once and you try and get a seamless smooth answer to question one lining up to the answer to question six and you can see that this is the message that reflects that these are the people you are talking to who see that value these are channels you can live up to it because here's the proof and if you removed it those people would miss

48:07Kevin Finn:you because the values disappeared it's like the fundamentals of branding really there's the core questions really yeah so you see the thing about those six questions for the business

48:19Jacob Cass:owners goes back to the you know trying to understand and what we're talking about here as designers we do this in space empathy right trying to say what's your world like And if I can say these six questions are going to help you understand what it is you're trying to bring out into the world in a way that is really tight and helps you say that succinctly, that isn't necessarily, ah, this is what we're doing in branding. That's giving them the means to talk about their business or their idea with clarity and they can back it up. So it's not about us. It's about them.

49:00Kevin Finn:So with that said, like what should every founder be asking their customers to kind of get into that mindset of like being about the customer?

49:09Jacob Cass:Well, I mean, every business is different. Every founder, every startup is different. But I think the first thing that they need to do is to understand that there's a life cycle for what they're about to embark on. And from founder, which is just an idea, when you have an idea, that's not a business. That's an idea. You've got to go out and validate it. And when you go out and validate it, that's when you're actually asking your customers, if not directly asking them, which I would say you should do, but you're iterating, as you said earlier, with whatever product services you're going out with and seeing what's connecting and what isn't connecting.

49:42Jacob Cass:And I've actually seen businesses that go out with an idea that they realize and they've been pushing hard. And then they realize that actually the idea is right. The market's wrong. Let's just put it over here. And then it goes gangbusters. Right. So it's just sort of knowing that this iterative understanding of your customers is going to be key. And secondly, that when you're working either with AI, with branding designers, whatever, that you do not have a brand because you've got a logo. In fact, you might be in operation for 10 years and still not have this idea of a brand. And I would say they need to start thinking around this idea of recognizable reputation.

50:22Jacob Cass:And that reputation has to be built on the connections you have with your customers, your clients or your market. And if you can focus on that, all the rest of it is say, how do we shine a light on that? And it's your job as a founder to steer it. Everyone else is there to help you.

50:42Kevin Finn:Brilliant. Well, let's talk about the future.

50:45Matt Davies:Well, yeah, I think for me, it's about if we're going to shift to the future and pick your brains, Kevin. And, you know, I guess it's like, what is the future for brand building and brands themselves? How do you see things playing in this new world sort of seeing emerging in front of us?

51:02Jacob Cass:Yep. There's two things I'll say about that. The first will be about our field and where I think the future of our field is. And the second is going to be where I think the future of the brands and the businesses need to be. So I see that there's four roles for our field, designers, brand designers into the future. the first is already happening and as we just discussed earlier it's having those long-term relationships with businesses and brands and with the advent of ai and everything and we're already seeing it there's going to be casualties but there'll still be enough studios and businesses that are working in that space at that highly strategic level long term so that's going to be a role for our field now a lot of your listeners will be like going fuck well there's only so many jobs there.

51:47Jacob Cass:The other role where I'm seeing is already emerging and I think is going to become mainstream is these big businesses and brands are going to actually have a chief design officer, an actual, not a marketing officer, like a chief design officer who's going to be sitting at the table in the C-suite. And that's going to be managing not only an in-house design team, but also how AI is deployed in a way that they understand. So I think a chief design officer is going to become an actual title role for a lot of the people in our field and that will become mainstream i think the third way is we're also seeing this happening but i think it's going to just amplify is in-house design now 20 years ago 10 years ago in-house design was like looked down on it was like if you can't make it in a studio you go in-house and tough on you gosh in-house is becoming super flexed, really valuable, very, very, I mean, Chobani is a good example in case in-house design team.

52:45So really, really deep expertise are coming in-house.

52:50Jacob Cass:And then the fourth is with all of our skills to help businesses to understand what they're doing with their products and services and to have that wide design thinking kind of mentality and education, we need to start building our own ecosystems of products and services and build our own markets and our own customer bases because that's going to give us what I would call a diversified way of earning a living and applying our trade to bigger opportunities rather than getting a brief and doing a branding project which AI can suck up in 10 minutes. So that's where I see our field for key areas. Businesses and brands, this is going to be a lot shorter.

53:36Jacob Cass:There's an organization called Profit that does a brand relevance index. And they just did the 2023-24 was brought out. I think they do it every two years, brand relevance index. And what has emerged from that is that relevance in the brand big business space is partly practical, tangible. I get what I need. It's the thing that I come to you for, the function. But a massive, massive indicator for the future from 2026 on for these businesses is from a customer's point of view, what makes them relevant is how do you make me feel? And that sounds to a lot of businesses and analytical thinkers that it's kind of soft power.

54:27Jacob Cass:But no, they are making consumer choice on, do you make me feel happy? Do you make me feel like my time is respected, which is convenience? Do you make me feel like I am seen and heard in a feedback loop? So how these businesses make people feel is going to be critical to how they look at the future of their business

54:58Matt Davies:brilliant thank you love that yeah yeah and then how do you design around that right like going yeah the start that's big thinking design right there you go there you go brilliant amazing well thanks so much for that we have got just to round things right off i think we've got five or six sharp quick fire round are you ready for a quick fire round kevin yikes give me a go all right all right these questions jacob's written some questions dad i'm not asking that one uh oh jacob asked you asked these questions and they're miserable go on go on try one

55:33Kevin Finn:they kind of just wrap up our whole conversation we don't have to go in depth okay brand or brand in first brand logo refresh or strategic reset depends all right can ai build brands not yet most misunderstood word in our industry brand and one habit every brand build up must adopt always ask yourself how relevant you are

56:12Matt Davies:boom there you go there you go i'm glad you did those jacob because i was reading them thinking well i don't even know but you guys did an awesome job i yeah i just became irrelevant myself for about three minutes so uh that's all good but i can cope i'm going to reinvent myself i'm going to design a new way forward and hopefully become more useful into the future Well, I guess the real final question is, where can folks follow more of your work, Kevin? You've got some books and stuff. How do we get hold of the material and the thinking that you've started to share with us on this podcast?

56:42Jacob Cass:I think at the moment, the best way to get in touch or to follow is on Instagram, which is just.kevin.fin. LinkedIn is where I do a lot of this sharing of this material. And that's just Kevin Finn in LinkedIn. and then another way is I recently just in the last few weeks started up a sub stack where I am taking a lot of the stuff out of the book and I'm starting to bring it out in ways that are relevant in today and that's like I think I'm four posts into that so that's the place where I'm going to be digging in deeply on this and then for any background stuff is my website which is

57:19Matt Davies:thesumof.com.au amazing amazing well thanks so much for coming in it's been great to bounce some ideas around and hear your thoughts on this so thank you we really appreciate it i'm sure all the listeners also wish to thank you so from myself from jacob from everybody you know we appreciate you kevin keep doing what you're doing and uh yeah thank you thank you for having me