631: Kings of Anglia: Spygate, sexy stuff and farewell to a legend

0:00Hi! Uncle Lazer here. America's built on fast cars, fast food, and even faster women. Moto Casino's built in America. You know what they're fast at? Fast cash, rise, redemption. You see, only Moto is U.S. owned and operated. Moto. It's American-made. That's who we are, and that's who we care about. Play for free at Moto.us. Moto Casino's the social casino. Avoid. We're prohibited. No purchase necessary. Visit Moto.us for more details. Must be 21+. Moto Casino. America's social casino.

0:39hello friends and welcome to your summer edition of the kings of anglia ipswich town podcast one of your weekly shows i am mark heath i'm joined by alex jones and stewart watson friends the sun is shining bank holiday weekend awaits southampton have been kicked out of the playoffs and they've given us one of the best stories that I can remember, certainly in recent memory, which gives us a brilliant starting point for today's pod. Obviously, we'll talk about sexy stuff. Obviously, we'll talk about Conor Chaplin. But we'll start there after I catch up with my two friends. AJ, you have obviously, well, not unexpected, but more time now over the weekends, free weekends.

1:18How have they been treating you since football stopped? At least it was town football stopped. I know the game continues because it never bloody stops, does it but for you you have three weekends now that's the point i'm trying to make how are they uh they're no different because i spend all of them watching football and that whole like barren run of like two weekends between the end of all club football i'm talking everything i'm not talking premier league i'm talking like when we get past the german promotion relegation playoffs and the spanish ones which run deep into the summer that horrible period of like two weekends where there's nothing is going to be vile until the world cup for me uh so that's my a lot of my a lot of my weekends are um i've also been down to kent i'm going down to cornwall this weekend and um yeah it's nice and it's also it's a good preparation for next season as well because obviously championship is it's full on it's a lot of travel it's your saturday tuesday and the premier league you have sometimes two games in a month you might not play at home for six weeks things like that which takes a bit of adjusting to after a championship season.

2:22So it's almost like a mini pre-season for that in a way. It felt so slow, didn't it? Now you brought it up the last Premier League season. It felt weird. Stu, you're definitely not weird. How are you? How's your free time?

2:35Stuart Watson:I like to switch off from football for a little while. I think it's good to have a bit of a break. AJ giving me the thumbs down. It will come to you, my friend. Just you wait. When you're married and you've got kids and you've got some other things on your plate, you won't have such an appetite for football. Maybe you will. I don't know. But, yeah, no, just enjoying a little bit of a break. I think it's important to. That's the message. Important to switch off. Stu, AJ just mentioned in the green room, just as we were chatting, your Shakti mat. We've had an update on that. Have you? Oh, yeah. Now you've got a bit more time.

3:11Are you getting deep in that?

3:13Stuart Watson:It's an important update, isn't it? Yeah. No, haven't used it. You'll probably notice a theme, regular listeners, where I'm into something for a short period of time and then I'm not... I forgot I had it, if I'm honest. Where is it? I'm here somewhere. I might do it tonight. You've reminded me. Well, relaxation is important as well, Stu, as you unwind. Friends, shall we crack into the football? Because obviously we do have to still talk about football. And I think normally we start with sexy stuff, but I don't think we can this week because there's been one of the best stories, as I say, I can remember in a long time.

3:47Spygate, this sensational Southampton spying story, which has got layers on layers on layers and still many, many more twists and turns to go. Hull, what are they going to do if they lose to Middlesbrough? What are the Southampton players going to do in terms of loss of earnings, not being allowed to play in the game? What does it mean for Tonda, etc, etc, all the people at Southampton? and ultimately, obviously, feel very sorry for the fans of everyone involved. But the question I have more than anything else, Stewie, is why? I don't understand why. What do they get from spying? There are literally hundreds of games or tens of games they can go and watch of Ipswich Town, obviously one of the teams they spied on, playing football.

4:39I don't understand what they think they're going to get from spying on a training session. Probably falls into the marginal gains element, which in sport has really ramped up, hasn't it, over time.

4:55Stuart Watson:There's so much detailed analysis that those little tiny extra things that you can get can make the difference. um yeah on first sort of thought risk versus reward of what you're going to get from it against you know what has happened it's clearly not worth it but maybe if you think the team's going to play with a different shape and you can you can work that out you only have to hear how some of the managers and players talk now about five yards starting position makes a difference and set pieces are such a big part of the game and if you can work out you know maybe what a set piece plan is, that can make or break a game.

5:39Stuart Watson:So that will be the thinking behind it. Clearly wasn't worth it, was it? No. And very good of Southampton to choose Town as one of the teams to spy on, because that gives us a genuine link to this story as well, as it wasn't a good enough story already. Clearly a lot of the chat, AJ, has been around the punishment. Unprecedented. I mean, when it dropped, I couldn't believe they'd been kicked out. I wasn't expecting that at all. I thought would be, you know, a fairly, in the scheme of things, big fine, but in the scheme of actually getting to the Premier League, nothing, and maybe a points deduction at some point.

6:13But then to be kicked out is obviously, well, it's unique, isn't it? I can't think of any other situation it's happened in. What do you make of the punishment? Are you in the they deserve it camp, or they're, ooh, that's a bit harsh sort of camp? I've gone between both for different reasons, but I think I'm settling more on the deserved camp in that marginal gains can mean anything. Football is a marginal game where these kind of differences can define a football club in the short, medium and long term. So take the borough game. This is the one that's been spoken about the most, and obviously so.

6:52The spy was caught ahead of that game. Let's say that the Southampton analysts noticed that Hayden Hackney's not ready. I know that I think that was said by the manager, but let's say that you get a key piece of information like that that is so pivotal that the manager's not going to give away or a tactical shape or something like that. Southampton scrapes a 0-0 draw in that first game. Who's to say that their approach for that match wasn't changed based on what was seen from the training session? and then it's a different game. Then Middlesbrough might win it 1-0 or 2-0. And then you've got a whole different picture than that second leg and the whole picture of the promotion playoff totally changes.

7:35And that's why I think that allowing them to continue within that wouldn't have been right and it was the right step to then remove them from the playoffs. I thought that the overall punishment felt very harsh of then getting minus four points for next season on top of that. But then it turns out that the EFL have essentially tried to treat the two things differently. So it's expulsion from the playoffs for spying on Middlesbrough. Then they've admitted to doing it on Oxford of all teams. They lost that game 2-1. And then, of course, on town last month with the 2-1 draw. And that is then what warrants the four-point deduction.

8:14So there's separate cases in that one. So I think that if I was a Southampton fan, I wouldn't have too many complaints with the decision, on both parts and also the appeal. I understand why people think it feels harsh, but it's also making an example of it that you can't do it. And when it happened before and Leeds got the fine, there wasn't a specific rule against it. These are multiple breaches now. And if you think that Southampton have spied on Oxford, lost that game 2-1, and then decided not to spy during their nice long unbeaten run, and then decide to spy oh yeah you know what lads let's bring the spying back for the it worked so well last time didn't do anything in between yeah i i have some questions let's put it that way you're old cynic you're cynic i mean that obviously that makes it worse doesn't it the fact it was systemic um something they did not just once but but multiple times um so have you got any thoughts on that on the punishment and also in terms of where we go next because obviously there's always in football now whenever these kind of things happen there's always like oh there's going to be some sort of legal angle to it, as I've already kind of hinted at that.

9:27You know, the Southampton players now have been denied playing in a game which potentially could see them then go up and have massive pay rises, for example, you know, loss of future earnings. The whole city haven't known who they're actually going to play. So if they now lose to Middlesbrough, do they have grounds for, you know, well, that wasn't fair, that kind of thing. And also Southampton, Tonda Eckert surely has got to go, hasn't he?

9:50Stuart Watson:I think so, yeah. I think a big part of his defence, allegedly, is that I'm German and I didn't realise that this was frowned upon in England and against the rules because it's commonplace across the continent. I don't know if that is the case. You would have to have lived under a rock to have not known about Spygate 1 with Leeds, which was seven years ago. Even if he personally wasn't aware of it, this must have come across several people's deaths. I wouldn't imagine for a minute this was just manager sends one text to one first team analyst who naively, and I do feel really sorry for the lad, and he is a young lad by the looks of things, is it Will Salt, who's the one who's been pictured behind the tree that's now having his image leading the nine o 'clock news.

10:42Stuart Watson:You know, it's probably his dream job and he can't believe it and you'd do anything, you know, was asked of you to try and help the team. So I feel sorry for him. I don't buy the fact that Southampton sort of almost did this slightly naively because it then comes on to the Ipswich part of this. And we're told by the Athletic that there was proper sort of espionage and subterfuge involved with the spying that went on when Ipswich trained at Eastleigh ahead of that game down at Southampton with the spy. that phrase always amuses me the the spy who apparently dressed up in an easterly kit to try and sort of blend in so if you know this sort of shows you that they knew that they were breaking the rules and they were they were you know this is this is proper sort of secret secrecy sort of stuff um the people i really feel sorry for and you've touched upon it is is the various collateral damage in here at the moment it's first and foremost the southampton fans you know stop and put yourself imagine this was ipswich in this position and how crestfallen and how embarrassed and you know all of the emotions that would go with it if this had been taken away from you um right in the final knockings uh people who've bought tickets hotels travel the whole fans that have had everything on hold you know done remarkably to finish sixth get themselves to the final against the odds they've not known who to prepare for as a team so what are the knock-on effects of that, as you've said.

12:15Stuart Watson:It's just a crazy, crazy, crazy story, isn't it? You know, Arsenal win the league the other night and no one was talking about it. That's how huge this is. Yeah, it's an absolutely extraordinary story. Absolutely extraordinary. And you do wonder, you know, where it's going to go next. In terms of kind of other things to talk about, and that is, you know, as I say, that will rumble on. And we do, we have the final itself to look forward to, I don't with this weekend but then you've got after that you think are going to be appeals after that and you know how long is this going to go on for anyway um what i will say and i don't want this to sound sort of too whataboutery but i think what sticks in the craw of a lot of football fans is that you've got man city 115 charges however many years into that you know well legaled up on on both sides and that can continually being kicked down the road you've had um some inconsistencies with Chelsea getting a little effectively wrap on the knuckles for historic overspending with FFP.

13:16Stuart Watson:Because, well, it was before our current owner and we're holding our hands up to it now. So, you know, that's fine, despite the fact that that maybe sets up exactly where they are as a football club now when you rewind and think that's where they put them, in contrast to the points deductions that have gone in the way of Everton and Forrest and others as well. So I think football fans are just struggling to see sort of the inconsistency of how certain situations can be dealt with very quickly. Others aren't. How maybe some bigger clubs get treated slightly differently. So that all feeds into it as well, doesn't it?

13:54Again, Stu, you old cynic. I dare you suggest such things. I do think, though, that we've gone from, I reckon Mark Ashley must be loving it because we've gone from Itchurch Town being the bad guys, you know, the penalties and the Farage, Fauré and all that kind of stuff. um and so i have to have literally gone hold my beer we can we can do better we'll go full spy mode and this will come out and you know now they are and will forever be for the foreseeable future the bad guys um anyway someone who's not a bad guy segway is someone who's going to be leaving the club on a chaplain which obviously we have to talk about that came out last friday um in terms of the band of brothers and you know exits which we've had kind of trickling through over the over the past few years we had moorsey and luongo last year which hurt we've got chaplin and potentially wes burns this year fingers crossed not wes burns but but chaplin i think even more than the two previous ones um hits you right in the fields uh aj i know you haven't been you around with Chaplin in League One that 29-goal season, but you've been around him enough to know what a bloody good bloke he is and what a great player he is.

15:07Just someone who's going to be really, really missed. Can you kind of get an insight into what he's like as a person and what it's been like covering him? Hard-working, humble, down-to-earth and I think the fact that he's remained such a prominent figure across all three divisions that he's played in for Ipswich Town is a testament to that. I think that there's very few players who've had the role that he has. I know it was reduced in the Premier League, but he still had an important part to play. And behind, I mean, who do you look at? Davis and Morsi, I don't think anyone has had the same kind of impact across three different divisions in the same way that he has.

15:54and that's both on the pitch but also off the pitch and you get that from talking to him, you get that from talking to anyone else about him and what he's like as a character, as a personality, trying to bed in new players, be that someone who's signed from a League One team or someone who's coming in from the Premier League like a Calvin Phillips and I don't think anyone has had a bad word to say about him and as good as he was as a player, and we can go through and remember all the amazing goals and assists, cutbacks, the funny moments where he goes down on the floor and pretends to be injured to allow the town players over to get a little drinks break, stuff like that.

16:35I think that maybe the most important thing is what he's been doing off the pitch and how crucial he'd been in that kind of leadership role, the leadership group. That's what stands out the most to me. I think that as a player, so intelligent is the main thing. Again, as good as he is on the pitch, there was a bit in the interview that Stu's done, for example, where he talks through the goal he scored against Sunderland and the depth and detail that he goes into with the tactical analysis is so deep. He's got such a sharp tactical mind, which really impresses me. And I always noticed that when I spoke to him.

17:12Yeah, biggest thing is just how everyone talks about him. of how we talk about him now, but also teammates, managers, those who played with him before. I mean, you saw the messages that came his way when he announced that he was leaving. Loads and loads and loads, more than I thought would happen. So, yeah, it's a credit and a testament to him. Yeah. Stu, obviously you have spoken to him exclusively. There's a podcast coming this Sunday, 50 minutes of you chatting to Connor and some great insights. First of all, the decision itself, though, in terms of, you wrote about the retain list and you kind of suggested that maybe they'd take the option on on Connor they haven't and they're just letting him go so just your thoughts on that decision and also the timing of it in terms of letting him go you think it's the right time to kind of part

17:57Stuart Watson:ways um well in the piece that I did previewing the retain list I did say there's a chance that they could take there was an option in Conor Chaplin's contract a 12-month extension option that Ipswich were in charge of same with Harry Clark we don't know what's going to happen with him I sort of said they could take that just to get a fee for him but I did also say in there there's every chance that Ipswich could sort of waive that right with Conor Chaplin and let him walk away for nothing as a bit of a goodwill gesture really which was the same with Sam Morsi That was a bit of a gentleman's agreement, if you remember when he left for, I always want to say Qatar, Kuwait.

18:41Stuart Watson:Last summer, he was still in contract. Ipswich could have asked for a fee, but they let him go for nothing because that is the relationship that first and foremost, Kieran McKenna and Mark Ashland have with their players. Connor Chaplin owes Ipswich nothing as he arrived for£750 ,000 from Barnsley, five years, talismanic figure in back-to-back promotions. He's paid back his transfer fee and wages outlay probably 10 times over, hasn't he? So I can see why it's probably the juncture for maybe both parties to part. Ipswich have got themselves back to the Premier League. Connor Chaplin, by his own admittance, didn't sort of set the world alight at Portsmouth last season.

19:33yeah, for the sake of kind of scraping back a few hundred thousand, maybe it's probably the best thing to do, really.

19:40Stuart Watson:And it's the least that they owe Conor Chaplin, I would say. Well, then I'm going to play a little teaser of your chat with Conor. And we can talk a bit more about it, about what you talked about and your kind of impressions of him as well, Stu, over the years and in this chat. Here's you talking to him, though, about the famous Sarmiento moment where he potentially broke the world 100 metre record celebrating it like a man who'd forgotten to put the bins out. Here we go. We have to talk about the Samiento goal, Southampton, and you darting across the pitch in your coat having just been substituted a few minutes before.

20:18Stuart Watson:Have you ever run that fast in your life? That feels like a real iconic moment. I think looking back at it, you were one of the first people on the scene for the bundle, weren't you? That was an incredible moment. Oh, no, yes. Crazy. Crazy. Yeah, that was one of those, I think. Such a big game. And we knew it was a pivotal game going into it. Obviously, the game started well. Leafs scored a great goal. And it was a really good footy match, I think, for anyone watching. It was a really good footy match. Two really good teams at a time. Two really good teams at a level. Yeah, and it was such a big moment in our season, right towards the business end of the season as well, where I think maybe if we'd have won that one, they couldn't have caught us.

21:04It was a big goal anyway. But yeah, it's probably one of those out-of-body experiences, that one. I think it just helped that it was Southampton as well, which I don't particularly like. So it was one of them that was amazing as soon as the goal went in. It's one of those ones that you can't really control yourself. You just sort of go with it. Yeah. Lovely stuff, Stu. So that's going to hit the streets, the virtual streets at 6am on Sunday. It'll be available to watch if you're a subscriber, obviously available as an audio show as well. So you've spoken to Conor a lot over the years and he's been, you know, clearly an incredibly important person.

21:41You've written a bit around him, you know, being a modern day club legend speaks to his character that he, you know, he's even sat down and done stuff like that with you as well. I know before, you know, you've done stuff with him about the foundation, which his commitment to was incredible. I remember hearing a story about him. His missus had just had the first child and he still turned up to the next foundation. They were like, what are you doing here? You know, it's that important to him that he was that kind of side of things as well. What can you tell us about your chat with him and about Connor as a person?

22:16Stuart Watson:First thing I want to say is whenever I watch those clips back, I'm always looking down and I've seen a couple of comments saying, that's rude. Why is he looking at his phone? Can't he? I've got this sort of habit of like checking notes and always wanting to have my next question sort of loaded up. So I just wanted to clear that up to start with. I'm wanting the interview to be the best it is and I'm just trying to sort of get my questions lined up. So that's what that is. Connor Chaplin. What a guy. If you were doing a Mount Rushmore of Ipswich Town players of the last sort of five years during this rebirth period, he would definitely be on it, wouldn't he?

22:54Stuart Watson:If you're picking four players, I think I'd go Davis Burns, Morsi Chaplin, I think would have to be the four. Really, you'd want Kieran McKenna in there. So I don't know who you'd sort of leave out. It'd be really difficult. But yeah, Connor Chaplin would have to be on there. As Alex says, it's not just about the goals. 55 goals puts him in the top 20 or so of all time goal scorers for Ipswich Town. But it's about more than that. It's been what he's been to the culture of the football club in terms of helping the fan base reconnect with a team. And that was a team that the fans loved. You can just see the warmth of the comments from those around him.

23:35Stuart Watson:Someone who's, like you say, done so much for the ITFC Foundation with various events and demanding that others around him do it. But he's got a real steely-eyed ambition and determination. he's a competitive animal isn't he and you hear that it's a great story in there that's uh you can read online now and you'll be able to hear it in the interview about how he was in training as well and how spicy training sessions could get and you just look back through some of the the pictures of his celebrations uh after goals as well um pure passion isn't he conor chaplain i thought the stuff that i found really interesting at least in the stuff that i've i've i've read that you've done steve i haven't listened to the whole interview yet and i will do but was around that competitiveness in the squad.

24:23You know, we've heard before Morsi clattering Hurst and then offering him out in the car park and this and the other. And there's also, Chaplin makes mention of games they would play where everyone was desperate to win and it used to sort of kind of, that competitiveness occasionally spilled over. So you've basically got all these people who are desperate to win. And also, there's an insight about Kieran McKenna, Stu, which you might want to talk about, which is going to hit the streets tomorrow morning, about just how much of a tactical genius he is. And the painted-hood, Connor Chaplin sit-down, which you spoke to him about as well, which obviously was another trademark of that team, wasn't it?

25:00Stuart Watson:Yeah, the Connor Chaplin tactical injury midway through the first half where he was always the one that would go down, have a little sit-down. Physio would come on. The rest of the team would then sort of congregate around the dugouts, get a few instructions from Kieran McKenna. interesting timing putting this out given we've just had a big discussion about cheating in Southampton at the start of this one it just shows you that everybody is trying to push the envelope in terms of getting an advantage this is certainly one of those situations and I asked him you know he was very honest about that being a tactic and I asked him you know can that really make a difference in a game can that really turn the tide how much information can you get from a manager in in the space of a minute midway through a game.

25:47Stuart Watson:And he's gone into real detail about how it can and did change games at the time. So have a little look back at that, some insight into McKenna being a really good man manager as well and always being able to read the room. So their relationship is really tight. Kieran McKenna has spoken lots about Conor and how they've got that relationship of trust. and I just think they're two football obsessives that just are very like-minded. So, yeah, fascinating little insight into the Blues boss, I would say. Yeah, I apologise for asking you this in advance too because I haven't warned you about it, but you've interviewed people.

26:25Obviously, you've covered the club for 15 years. You've interviewed all sorts of people in that time. Where does Conor Chaplin sit as a character, as a person in terms of interview and the kind of insight that he gives you and his personality, if you like?

26:39Stuart Watson:Yeah, he'd be up there. there's different different people are fun or interesting to interview for different reasons connor is someone that is great because you don't have to do a lot of i talked about sort of always having a question teed up you don't really need that with connor chaplin because um he just loves talking about the game i was very mindful that we went into it and i think he was heading out in the morning and he said i've got i said he said how long do you need and i went maybe half an hour mate and i pushed it a little bit but he seemed to be enjoying himself and he doesn't need a lot of prompting he's uh you know as i say he loves football and aj will know from speaking to him post-match that um he gives very fulsome answers not many footballers go into sort of the tactical detail that conor chaplin does so um yeah yeah great great chat with him enjoyed it and hopefully everyone else does as well aj mount rushmore of that period the band of brothers period You have to have Morsi.