KOA special - David Lowe on his Town spell, trademark shuffle and future plans

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0:38well David thank you so much for joining me and welcome to the Kings of Anglia podcast how's things I know you've been it's been a year now since you left Blackburn how's that sort of been in the last year yeah it's obviously I've had a few issues with my parents and my father's had a really bad back for the last few months and unfortunately I lost my mum in January so obviously I don't like being out of work but it's come at a good time really with the personal issues I've had to deal with and also my family I've had to deal with so you know hopefully now and we covered from that to a certain degree and hopefully look to try and get back into the game in some capacity in the near future as I say it was a tough 12 months really but now I'm recharged a little bit I think when you've been in football for so long it's like a drug really you get attached to it I don't really know nothing else to be perfectly honest either played or fortunate enough to play and fortunate enough to coach for a long period so I'd just like to try and get back in some capacity where that will be I don't honestly know at the moment OK, we'll show and see and yeah, sorry to hear about your mum's passing and I can imagine your family is such a big thing for you in terms of football who sort of got you into football your sort of early memories of playing?

2:05Oh, that's a really good question and when we were very young years ago we used to play football on the streets really with our friends and we played a lot against older boys which was really competitive to be honest and then I was fortunate enough when my father was really keen into football and he set up a football club shall we say called Bulbers Boys Club and I played there obviously at grassroots level for a long period of time and then I was fortunate enough to be recommended to Wigan Athletic by a school teacher of mine Barry Whipred and then obviously it snowballed from there really I played a lot of grassroots during the Wigan quite late shall we say for compared to these days when i was about 16 coming to 17 and then it took off from there really i wasn't actually in a sense of excellence already when them days on a regular basis i just played grassroots football and play from school and so forth i was fortunate to get recommended then to wigan athletic and i was attacking yes mainly uh either play wide right or wide left or I used to really enjoy playing striker more than any of them positions to be honest.

3:26I think I played most of my football up front, so I switched off to centre striker. Early part of my Wigan career I played wide right and wide left sometimes, but mainly me I really enjoyed playing up front really. Did you ever have a team? Obviously I know you were born in Liverpool, are you blue or red? I'm on blue that's a really good question really because my son's quite fortunate now he works in Everton Academy but I supported Everton right from when I was a really young boy and used to go and watch them, I don't go and watch them as much now, I mainly watch them on the TV but mainly obviously my main support is Everton really, although I do think Liverpool is a fantastic club unfortunately I haven't done too well this season but generally speaking we're fortunate enough in this city to have two really good teams, really.

4:20And obviously, Tramia Rovers is just over the water also. So, there's three really good football clubs available to go and watch if you need to. Obviously, Wigan, a very good spell. How do you sort of look back at your time, your first spell, Wigan? I know there's one little note I've got here. You scored an over-head kick at Wembley and won a trophy at Wembley, the football league trophy at the time. Yeah, yeah. I really enjoyed it as I say I got an opportunity I was really fortunate enough to play in the first team when I was 17 so I joined them as an apprentice in the August and then in I think it was October I made my debut I just turned 17 and then I had five really great years there Ali McNally Larry Lloyd, Brian Hamilton who was obviously an ex-Ipswich Town player so quite fortunate to have really good coaches and obviously surrounded with really good players as well.

5:19You know, Mike Newells, Steve Walsh, Graeme Barrows, Tony Kelly, Kevin Langley. We had a really good team and I really enjoyed my time there. I had a really good upbringing, shall we say, and really curved my career a little bit and made me become, develop really quickly because I had to. uh when i was 17 playing in in the first team and i had i had five really good years there and i really enjoyed it and i'll be very grateful for the club for giving me the opportunity then but obviously it was quite fortunate enough then to to move to ipswich uh john duncan signed me uh i think it was about 80 000 at the time 85 something like that and it was a it was a big thing for me because i've never obviously been away from liverpool throughout my career obviously just traveling up to wigan so it was it was a big move really you know everything connected you had to move house move from your parents home and so forth set up house yourself my girlfriend then who's my wife now come down with me at the time so and i just took to ipswich straight away i really I was made very welcome by friends who I'm still keeping in touch with now, which was obviously great.

6:41And I just felt at home straight away there. Once again, I was fortunate to work with some really good players and some really good coaches. And it was really good. I really enjoyed my time. Obviously, in the middle of my time there, I had to deal with a cruciate ligament injury, a reconstruction, which obviously was quite severe at the time. But I've only got fond memories. I really enjoyed it. I was fortunate to play with some really good players. Obviously, there's too many to talk about at the moment, but I was really fortunate. Good coaches, really great set-up, great daily to live in and fortunate to work with really good players every day, which obviously brought me on to a certain degree as well.

7:30I know you say it's going to be hard to name the players but can you remember the players who helped you settle when you came in? You were a young lad That's a really good question I can always remember Frank Yallop who was really a comedian in the dressing room, he was fantastic Mark Brennan, people like that Jason DeZell Tony Humes, Ian Cranston too many to mention really I just felt at home straight away when I went in there. I really did. Obviously, fortunate to play with some really great players, as it turned out, and we had a really good football club at the time. I really enjoyed my time.

8:12It was really good. I enjoyed living in the area, to be perfectly honest with you. My wife always says we should always go back and live down there. It's quite difficult now with four kids, our own, and two grandchildren. You know what I mean? It was a fantastic time. Fantastic players. Fantastic players. Yeah, of course, John Duncan, I think I've seen in that interview you had, when he was at Chesterfield, you impressed playing against him and asked the reason why he signed you for Itchwich. Yeah, John, obviously he signed me. I played against his team at Chesterfield. Unfortunately, John's passed away now, but he gave me my opportunity.

8:53And he was tough. He wanted his strikers to run and chase and defend and obviously try and score goals also. But I used to, to be fair, I used to love training and love playing. So whatever any coach asked me to do, obviously I tried my utmost to try and do it if I could. And at the bottom line is it's all about the team, you know, and making the team as good as they possibly can be. And as I say, it was a really good experience and always be grateful for John for giving me the opportunity to play for Ipswich, really. Yeah, and you had a fantastic debut campaign. You know, you scored 18 goals in all competitions.

9:34I don't know if you remember that season. I know my team was still sort of, I wouldn't say it was a bit of a hangover from, you know, the early eighties when we won the UEFA Cup, and the team was sort of breaking up and there were some new players coming in. But you were sort of a young player coming into the team. Yes, great team goals in your debut season. Not too bad. Yeah, but to be fair, i have i think i had 15 on new year's day i think i scored i think i think i think i think everyone right remember i think we drew 2-2 with palace crystal palace he may have been on boxing day or new year's day one of the two and i managed to score two and i was i think it was on 15 on january the first and then i i think i only scored three afterwards right from until the end of the season and looking back now like i used i used i i was terrible to be perfectly honest with like wanting to do extras all the time after training i i'd always want to do something finishing control touch whatever passing and the coaches used to have a go when you get in please because you're going to get injured this and that i always used to i really used to enjoy training and I always used to like doing extras.

10:48Now, we were that caught up with me a little bit towards the end of the season. Well, I only got about, I only finished up with three, I only scored three goals, I think it was. I haven't 15 on New Year's Day. My memory serves me right. I don't know. But looking back on my time, maybe, I know it's easy to say now, maybe I did leave a little bit on the training ground sometimes, to be honest, I may have been guilty of doing that. Yeah, but I'm just looking at your stats now. You know, you are correct. Your memory is still very good there, my friend, because you scored on New Year's Day against Stoke.

11:29One win. And then you scored against Watford. I mean, the Four Members Cup, remember that back in the day? And then there was three other goals after that as well. So, yeah, it was 15, you know, doing really well. and then was Palace on Boxing Day Ross it was yeah unfortunately it was a 3-2 defeat though was it 3-2 I think Ian Wright scored two as well if I'm not mistaken let me quickly double check let me see if it does show yeah he scored twice yeah there we go there we go but that must have been sort of perfect start you know as well from moving home you've got to settle you know as a young lad I'm sure you just you just ignored that part of it you're just like I'm focused on my football and off field stuff out that's right yes i i went into the digs at first when i first went down there i was lucky enough to have some really nice land ladies and i looked after me and then well i really focused on my football uh and as i say it was like it was like coming to like a family you know the place i really enjoyed straight away i really got a good feel for the the place the club the town everything about it really I really enjoyed it unfortunately as I said to you I got around at around 15 around end of the year but only managed to get number three or four maximum I think Is this alright as well?

12:56Was that the first time you were playing in the second division? Because you were at Wigan in the third division Yeah it was yeah it was me like so that was like a bit of a learning curve really because obviously the division is a bit more difficult than the division played in played mainly three divisions at a time and that was my first taste of second division and in fairness i'm used to playing wide right sometimes and wide left but i always like i always preferred playing center football really and i always used to like playing a big open if i could i played and missed that right time neil woods as well i always used to prefer just floating around off a big centre forward to be honest and that sort of like being the main focal point of like a centre forward but I could like you call my tens nowadays I suppose I used to just like float off the centre off a big centre forward really I used to enjoy playing like that Yeah and who out of the strikers of town who do you enjoy with playing with the most I know as you said you've named a few there quite a few isn't there to be fair I used to enjoy all of them like Davray, Neil Woods Jason De Zelle played up front alongside at times, Chris Guamia Paul Goddard people like that, so they were all talented players, really when I did get my injury, Chris Guamia came up to the floor and really done particularly well for himself and obviously to a degree took my place really when I come back after I'd come back from injury and he was a really good footballer quick really good finisher very good Jason Luzell was an excellent technician really good technician, really good footballer really laid back character but a really good footballer and I learned quite a bit off Paul Goddard as well, during my time there with him, he was a smashing footballer, a good link man and a really good finisher Davray and Neil Woods were like strong old school type centre forward, shall we say.

15:07And I really enjoyed playing alongside them. So I enjoyed playing along all of them, you know, and they all have different attributes, but they're all very good lads and very good strikers. Definitely. And I got a message. This is from a town fan listener. Richard Wiseman said, scored in something like eight consecutive home league matches during the first half of the 1987-88 season. A great buy for just... you kind of think John and the club will go, well, we've got that money back very quickly on those only eight plans. That is where you want to start. Yeah, I think, obviously, I think it's important when you, like, leave home, shall we say, and come to a club really quite a distance from home and a different, like, place to work and, you know, play football.

15:57I was really focused on trying to get off to a good start, really, because I was quite nervous, shall we say, over the first couple of weeks of the season. But I think every striker will say, if you can manage to get yourself off the mark with a few goals early on, it does not help your confidence. And everyone, every striker, and certainly every player, needs to be confident in what is ability and so forth. But I think as a striker, if you can get off to a good start and get a few goals under your belt, I think it really helps to be honest and I was quite fortunate to do that Yeah and Richard actually said another question here or sort of statement Blainley got chipped by Maynard's goalkeeper inside the penalty area during the live FA Cup match in January 88 VAR would have awarded a pen these days can you remember that when you played United in the FA Cup you got chipped and got brought down did they get brought down by Turner yeah was Turner the goalkeeper was that the is that the one he's talking about yeah well it was what that was on sunday that wasn't i think i'm sure that was on a sunday it was on match of the day it was on the it was the live game i think honestly yeah yeah yeah i did actually but i didn't get the penalty but it was i didn't die it may have looked as though it died funny enough like like to go back to that game some of my friends come down from Liverpool for that game and then they give me a bit of grief about dying I said I didn't die if it was a penalty I don't know I haven't seen it for a long time you know what I mean but I'm sure if we had VAR back then then you I'm sure they would have looked at it and you would have potentially got the penalty and that could have changed the game potentially I don't know what yeah maybe but yeah that must have been amazing for you though playing against, you know, Maine United.

17:57You know, I know they were sort of building their team a little bit again and stuff like that. But, you know, playing third-tier football with Wigan, now you're playing Maine United in the FA Cup. Yeah, I was like, it was really, as I said earlier, it was like a brilliant experience, you know, playing against some of these guys like Steve Bruce and people. He actually, when I was, he actually ended up being my manager at Wigan when I was a youth team coach at Wigan Steve. So I think he played on the day and obviously they had the array of stars, you know what I mean? Brian McLean and people like this.

18:33So it was a really tough game for us. But we give them a good, you know, we give them a good run for the money, to be fair. And it was a fantastic experience to put your wits against some of them players, you know what I mean? Top club like Manchester United. Definitely. And I want to talk about, i've got another question here this is from dan he's actually got four questions um we're going to start with um where did you learn um to do your trademark shuffle oh that's really good that's a really good question that and funny enough i was speaking to someone yesterday about it really and so like the sports scientists will believe this but what we used to do sometimes with ali McNally he was like my old manager at Wigan or my coach at Wigan when I first went there and he would then become the manager after Larry Lloyd and then he sees me right and he used to take me and Steve Walsh the big centre back he used to play for Leicester he used to take me and him and do like individual like 1v1s on a Thursday afternoon on a small Astro surf behind the stand at Wigan and like pass balls into me and then expect me to try and get past them all the time and you try and use different tricks to get past them and obviously one of them was like the double shuffle with the ball really so that that's where i i i not learned if that's where i practiced today against steve walsh now when i think back now i think oh my lord no sports science on it would allow anyone now to like do one v ones on a thursday afternoon of the games on Saturday on AstroTurf and the coach having a go at me for not getting past Steve Walsh and then if I did get past Steve Walsh you'd have a go at Steve Walsh for letting me get past him so it was fantastic learning, you know what I mean and when I think back now I think how on earth would sports scientists look at that now especially young lads playing on a game on Thursday afternoon and then dinging on a plane on a Saturday and we were like people might say well you're only 17 18 but even now people say oh come on that was a bit heavy but there's a fantastic learning curve to be honest because like replicated what I'd be faced up with on a Saturday big tall centre back well go on then you've got your back to goal or your side on whatever it may be don't get past them and we used to do it for like half an hour and now well I couldn't do it now anyway but things oh my god what did we go through there I'm still still keeping in touch with Steve Moss to a degree to the in the ex-players chat on WhatsApp I'll have to mention it to him when I see him again but yeah that's what I did to be honest I did I wasn't brilliant I didn't have many tricks in my locker really, I had that double shuffle and when I was younger I used to go out on the local park and just practice the scissors and things like that, but I very rarely used them in the games I don't know what it was, but the double touch I used quite a lot to be honest, and that was my go-to to try and get away from someone, and I always remember John Duncan saying to me once, David, you're very athletic and you're fit and you're quick, but what are you going to do with the centre-backs just as fit and quick as you?

22:20I said, well, I don't know, to be honest. Can you tell me? I'll always remember him saying that. I said, are the centre-backs as quick and fit as you today? What are you going to do? Because I used to like, so I was like, I'll keep going, keep going, and so I was like, you know, outrun them in the end, really. talk us through the England under 21 won the goal at Highbury of course you went on to win some Cats regions at youth level it got disallowed yeah it got yeah it got disallowed I like I bent one I think I bent one in the top corners at Highbury I think I think it was against France if memory serves me right it was against France I think Cantona played I may be wrong I'd love to check this thingy and I didn't I really really he scored goals from outside the box, to be honest.

23:10So when I tried, I was quite surprised that, oh God, it's gone in. But then I think they give offside to someone. I'm almost certain they did. But it didn't stand. I don't think it did. But I agree, it was a good strike. But I didn't score many from outside the box, to be honest. Do you know, funny enough, yeah, Eric Cantona played in that game. Yeah. i thought so it got it got that it got disallowed it didn't stand sure it didn't all right no yeah it was a two two draw um yeah it was a hybrid yeah yeah it was the um euros semi-final yeah two two draw yeah so yeah what was that like playing for england at youth level you know paul gascoigne was part of your team and some other big names in that's great yeah there was like people ask me who was the best player i didn't actually i play with him only not for a long amount of time obviously the odd game but he he was a fantastic

24:19footballer even in training oh god this kid he's unbelievable he was very good i also worked with teddy shedingham he was very good technician but god if someone people have asked me in the past who was the best player you've actually trained or played with, I'd actually say, I'd have to say Gascoigne. I'd have to say Gascoigne. He was unbelievable. An actual wizard, really, a natural technician, natural footballer. He was like a street footballer, really. But he was fantastic. And a brilliant character. A brilliant character he was. He was really good. Even at that young age as well. Yeah, very good.

24:58He was very good. Very good he was. Indeed. Very good. And Dan, two more questions from Dan here. We're going to go back to your Wigan days. He said, what was Paul Cook like in the Wigan dressing room? Of course, he went on to Manage-Tutters Town for a brief period. Yeah. Paul, he went on to Manage-Tutters Town as well, didn't he? Yeah. Paul Cook was a very good footballer. He was a great lad, Paul. I'll still keep in touch with him via WhatsApp and that. And he had a fantastic left foot on him. He was really good. He was a good footballer, Paul. And he's done really well in management as well.

25:37He's always been quite vocal and he can communicate. So it's no surprise to me really that he's managed to have a career in management also, you know. But he was a very good footballer and he had a very good left foot on him as well. Very good indeed. Did he also lose his voice during... Yeah. Yeah, he's always like, because he's really emotional and really enthusiastic. He wants the best for his team, wants the best for the players. And he gets really involved, you know what I mean? And he was a very good footballer, really good left foot on him. Could see passes, a good engine on him. He could run around an awful lot.

26:26And the most important, he's a very good person as well. He's a really nice person. And I enjoy playing with him as well. You know what I mean? I played with him at Wigan and he was really good. He's a bit younger than me, Paul. He's a little bit younger than me. But a very good footballer. It's no surprise to me that he's gone on to forge a career in management, really. Definitely. Yeah, it just didn't work out, unfortunately, at town, I think. I can't remember how long it was at town, really. Maybe like four months. but he then was part of a, you know, he recruited so many good players who, you know, like Sam Morsey and Connor Chaplin, who went to be part of that team that won, you know, automatic, you know, back-to-back promotion instead of Premier League.

27:10So he sort of gets remembered for that, but just in terms of just didn't work out at the time. But still got fond memories of him, though, because he's just, his character and everything like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's a likeable character. Yeah, definitely. and um final question from Dan is uh what is your favourite town game which one stands out for you when I played you mean yeah well that's a really good question

27:40I'm just trying to think now people on spot here yeah people on spot here that's one yeah you play a lot of games um but Ipswich Town what one really stands out for you you know you scored you know a good amount of goals 53 goals in 230 games. So, Wigan and then for Richwich, you scored a good amount of games as well. I think even though we lost for Manchester United, I think that was a really good experience. Yeah. Playing against them guys, you know what I mean, in the FA Cup and giving them a good run for the money. To be honest, I think that was really good. Really good. And as I alluded to before, I think the Crystal Palace, I think, I think Crystal Palace went up that year when we drew with them at Ipswich over the Christmas period and scoring scoring against them them two goals was good even though obviously we didn't win we didn't win the game scoring two against them but to be honest with you I I enjoyed all my all my games there really I was like I know we didn't have like loads of success obviously the promotion which was going up to the Premier League was very good unfortunately I wasn't there at that time I think I was on loan at four play eleven memory serves me right but I've got too many memories like unbelievable memories to say actually name definitely that's the game I really enjoyed you know what I mean I just enjoyed me spell there full stop really with a few standouts obviously I managed to score quite a few goals, which is obviously good.

29:21But generally speaking, I've got nothing but good to say about my time here, really. Well, fine enough, there's the amount of people who said you were their hero, sort of growing up. I've got so many different comments. I'll quickly go through them now. Yeah. I'm sure it's going to make you maybe blush a little bit and go, oh, no, stop, stop it. But, you know, Nicholas went, just hero. Matt went, my hero in 1987. Even Dan with the questions we had a minute ago, my first town hero, what a player. Charlie here, Cobalt Massive, one of my favourite players. I just remember playing football for a youth team all those years ago and wanted to be as good as David Lowe.

30:04Then Ali went, loved him back in the day. This is Bert here. He was a hero of mine. I really look forward to interview. Worked hard, scored goals, real heart. when it sometimes felt that we'll go to grim, rainy northern grounds and not really be at the races. You could be sure he'll always be up for it, chasing down the channels. Big fan. And then John here went, was David brought in to replace Kevin Wilson? I had an impression, maybe incorrectly, that he didn't see himself as an out-and-out striker, even though his scoring record would say otherwise. Yeah, just a couple of points there, really.

30:38It's quite like running down the challenge. it's really like John asked me not made me but sometimes John's like his back line to flip balls down the channels and I used to like I used to be quite really athletic really I used to just keep running and running and he was really good at if there's nothing much on just flip it down so he was trying to get on the end of things it was very good because I was quite prepared to run and give the backline that's what I call my outlet and when John when John Lyle come it was sort of like a different style he asked me to adopt really because John was more of a like a technical coach and he taught me about time of moves time of runs down the channels and things like that John Lyle was more a technical coach and told me about my body shape when i'm receiving passes and playing one touch football then running so i was quite fortunate i learned a lot different types of player of a center forward of john duncan where he asked me to run down the channels whereas john lyle was more of a technical coach and spoke about my body shape and my link-up play and getting in the penalty area into spaces and things like that so i was quite fortunate enough to have really good coaches and managers who like tried to develop my game as well because obviously when i come to uh back to history from wigan i was still quite a young lad i was only just on 21 really i'm still learn of your trade so i was quite fortunate that i could adapt to what well you see what john duncan wanted me to do and then obviously what i wanted to do uh i was quite pleased he was more of a like a technical coach really wanted the striker to be more short moves and playing off once things like that getting in the box so now i was quite fortunate i I was really fortunate to work with good players and managers.

33:01Definitely. And Ian here, Davis, said, fantastic. Of the strikers who you paired with in the days when strikers played as a pair and except in your natural position was right winger, who was the best to play alongside? Although we've sort of covered this already. One for it, which anyone from any other team you played with. So, you know, the strikers? Yeah, that's a really good question. like uh i've mentioned some of the strikers i play with the lips which and to be fair i missed that way i i enjoy playing with his presence because he took a lot of weight off me whereas the other guys were more technical than me but mish took a lot of weight off me with his physical presence really it's just like a dad looking after you if that makes sense if you know to me he'll do all the bustle and bustle and taking charges you know being strong with center backs who had just float around them and that was that was that was very good uh and i i was also fortunate to play with a man who fortunately passed away now a match center for called bob campbell at a wig and athletic an irish he played he was an irish international and he was like he really took me under his wing and if a centre-back clattered into me said don't you worry I'll sort him out and he was sort of like a fatherly figure for me on the pitch because I was only like 18, 19, 20 during the time I played with him and he just used to take care of these big bustling old school centre-backs where I could just float around them you know what I mean he wasn't a brilliant footballer but I just sort of like looked looked up to him all the time he looked after me against this fella you know what I mean so as I said to you earlier I quite enjoyed playing with like big old school fashion centre pool I don't know how I do now because I'm not playing them around now and yeah you had to go up against some really we call it on the podcast hairy arse defenders so there was a few out there that like yeah give you a little bit, a little sun just a little extra yeah yeah yeah leave a bit on you yeah yeah leave a bit on you there's another question here from Stephen who was the most talented player you played with at town you mentioned Paul Gaskell he's probably the best player you played with yeah talented really good question okay really good question

35:41I think like Jason Jason, Jason Vazell, he wasn't physically brilliant, but actual football intelligence, football technique. I think he'd be up there with them definitely. Actually seeing different types of passes and things like that, and natural football ability. I thought he was really good, you know what I mean? I thought he was really good. Mark Brennan had a really good left foot on him. He was a very good footballer. A very good footballer. But if someone asked me to name someone who, like, you think, I'd go for Jason, I think. Although, as I said, I was fortunate to play with quite a lot of really good players.

36:24But if someone actually wanted me to name someone, I think Jason Dizel was very good, technically very good. Very good indeed. And obviously, it treats loud as well and had that great job with us and stuff like that. I've got another message here. This is from Paul. He said, loved him. Great turn and link up play. Bad tackle by Chris White, West Brom. Put him out for a while. Was sad to see him leave. Yeah, back then, injuries, we didn't have the science we have now. That must have been... How do you look back at that injury? Yeah, it's a good question. I was looking up at some of the fixtures, really.

37:03It was West Brom, Chris White, and he tackled me from behind. And that started me issues with me cruciate. Now, at first, we treated it quite conservatively and done an awful lot of rehab and got myself back playing. But then I played for the reserves at Luton in a game and I got injured again and my knee flared up again. In the end, I had to go get at the operation. And I think I was quite fortunate, really. It was really quick rehab. after the major operation I think I'd done it in Jan I don't know maybe January I'm not 100 % sure and then I was I was able to join in pre-season training now some of the physios during my career when I've told them this they've just laughed at me say you can't be serious you didn't rehab that quickly I said I'm serious I've rehabbed I joined in with the team pre-season training and I was on the bench I think the role was the bench first game of the season if I think I think I'd come on for Paul Goddard but I must have come back within like six months of an ACL reconstruction now, whether that was good or better, I'm not too sure, I had a really good physio, Dave Bingham who was really proactive and was pushing me all the time throughout the summer and I actually joined in with the team on pre-season training I was really fortunate really because I didn't get no reaction to the injury I had a really good surgeon and had a really good physio so it all turned out quite well for me in that respect of the rehabilitation problem didn't take me long and I was fortunate to get him I'm almost saying I was sub for the first team against Bristol Rovers You were correct You came on for Paul Goddard yeah i'm on i've done a lot of work as i say leading into pre-season and joined in with the team pre-season after that i think you had the operation i don't know fed time if i'm not mistaken i may be wrong yeah but yeah nowadays like you look at these some of these guys like it look maybe out for nine twelve months with it i was quite fortunate enough really to get back on in that time.

39:36And did John sort of tell you what your role could be going forward? Because, you know, he was sort of, he brought in Paul Goddard, Steve Witten and some other players were coming in and he sort of made a bit of a bit part. He still played games though during that promotion winning season. But of course, as you mentioned, yeah. I wasn't, I think it's fair to say it wasn't my first choice at the time. You know, to me it was obviously Paul Goddard and Kiwami had really developed a really good relationship. We had the pace of Kiwami. And then, obviously, the technical side of Paul Goddard. So that was a really, really good partnership.

40:15And I think I went on loan to Paul Flayle in the March, I think, if I'm not mistaken, March time. Is that right, Ross? Yeah. So I was a bit of a big park player. But because I've been, before my injury at Wigan, at Ipswich, I've managed to play regular football, like average of 30, 40 games a season. So I wasn't frustrated, but I just needed to go and play again, really, and play regularly. And obviously I missed out on the promotion push, shall we say, the final run and all the celebrations and that. But I thought to myself, I think it was more important when you come back from a knee operation like that to get as many games under your belt to get your fitness levels up and obviously to get yourself through it mentally that you've actually recovered from your your operation obviously now i'm paying the price a little bit with me name but i was just desperate to get back to play football and if i needed to go on loan to get regular football well that's that's the decision i took now we were that was the right decision obviously anyone can debate that one way or another i just thought it was, you know, when you come back from injury, I think you need to go and get quite a few games under your belt, which I managed to do at poor fail, to be honest.

41:36Yeah, he did, and yeah, unfortunately that was it for you at town. You know, 44 goals in 161 games, so not bad going in terms of the goals you scored. How do you sort of look back then? I know you've said it many times already in this conversation, but I'm sure you look at your town spell with fond memories, because of just the goals and moments you made. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. It was a challenge for me, obviously, to leave my home, Liverpool, and leave Wigan. It was a test, obviously, because of me, obviously, me partner come down, and she's obviously been my wife ever since. And I think it was a great place to go, a great club to go to, a great area to live in.

42:23And, you know, I really enjoyed it. Obviously, it stopped me in my tracks a little bit. You could argue, we say, the cruciate ligament operation to a degree. But, you know, there's a fair chance when you play football that you may get injured, so you've just got to be able to deal with that. And sometimes, you know, it comes to an end. Sometimes it's out your hands a little bit, really. And then, obviously, I had really five good years. I've only got fond memories of my time down there, the people I met down there and so forth, the football club. So I've got no regrets really of my time during town other than maybe because I've been involved in the promotion right at the end of the season.

43:10But unfortunately, I decided to go and get some game time at Port Vale because I'd been used to playing regular football. So I found that quite difficult at times not to play regular football. but overall I've got not but friend memories and I'm really pleased to see where they are now I think they've been fantastic this season I've watched quite a few of the games on the TV I think they've been really fantastic and the stadium looks as though it's absolutely buzzing the fans really behind the team the team playing really some decent football I think everyone connected with the club have done really well Definitely mate and how does it make you feel where there's so many messages there about calling them your hero back in the day.

43:53How was that like as a plough when you hear that? I wanted to be David Lee in the playground. That's a nice memory. It's nice obviously that you've left some sort of a legacy, you know what I mean? And that's all I can say. I'll always be grateful because I never got a hard time off the fans. They're always really good towards me, you know what I mean? So I can't really knock them at all. They're all fine. And as I say, we still keeping such as some friends down there i'll always be grateful for the support to give me especially you know a young lad coming down leaving home and so forth from liverpool coming all the way down to soffey you know it's quite a big challenge really but i was made to feel really welcome both at the club away from the club supporters and friends i've always got fond memories and it's nice for them to say like you do it here you know i don't know how many you say that like obviously there's a few good there's like nearly 10 here nearly 10 people saying yeah just some good things and heroes came up many times so um you definitely have made a mark at the club um and you know you went on to you know play for you know leicester you went back to port of ale helped them get promoted you know finish your career um went back to wigan then Wrexham and then Lonespey at Russell and Diamonds but did you always feel coaching was always going to be something you were going to look into?

45:20Yeah, well, to be honest yeah I did I used to coach I used to coach at the market on Wednesday evenings in the lashing down rain, we used to have about five balls, about three bibs five discs and like 20 players so I took my A licence badge quite early when I was still playing and I used to do a little bit on Wednesday evenings at Neatham Market. And funny enough, a couple of months ago, I went to a funeral of a friend of mine and I bumped into one of the old players that we used to coach on Wednesday evening at Neatham Market Church there. And we just got talking about things and it was really nice to go back.