#406 – Crafting High Stakes Romantic Suspense with Rachel Grant

0:06Hey writers, you're listening to the Kobo Writing Life podcast, where we bring you insights and inspiration for growing your self-publishing business. For your hosts, I'm Rachel, author engagement manager at Kobo Writing Life.

0:17Rachel Grant: And I'm Tara, director of Kobo Writing Life. On today's episode, we chatted with USA Today bestselling author Rachel Grant, who also writes thrillers as R.S. Grant. She worked for over a decade as a professional archaeologist and mines her experience for storylines and settings, as she did with her latest book, False Flag, which we're talking about today. She currently lives in Okinawa, Japan with her archaeologist husband. We had a great conversation with Rachel, both Rachel's. Rachel Grant told us about her writing journey and starting as an indie author way back in 2013 and we talked about her new book False Flag which is a thrilling romantic suspense with navy seals, evil billionaires, podcast conspiracy theorists, politicians and of course archaeologists.

1:06Rachel Grant: It was a super fun conversation. I feel I could have kept talking all things archaeology that I don't know anything about so just keep telling me all about this fascinating subject but I hope you enjoy. This week on the podcast we're happy to welcome back Rachel Grant welcome back. Thank you thank you for having me I'm excited to be here. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and how you got into writing? Well I was the editor of my high school literary magazine and so and it was during that time that I was like oh I want to I want to be a novelist but I couldn't imagine actually like writing a whole book you know those things that happen.

1:45And then I was in college and I went to Florida State University and I couldn't major in creative writing. I didn't have that. So I was like an English major, maybe journalism, you know, like kind of looking at that track. And then after my freshman year, I was like, I already know how to write. Why would I like get a degree that's actually not exactly in what I want to do when I already know the writing part? I should probably get into something that really fascinates me that'll give me something to write about later. So I changed my major to anthropology with a focus in archaeology. I was kind of mercenary about it.

2:22I mean, I knew I wanted to be a writer, but I also thought that being an archaeologist would be, I couldn't imagine anything more interesting. It's like, you know, anthropology is the study of humans and archaeology, human cultural history. And, you know, it just sounded amazing to me. And my classes were fun. And now here we are. I worked in the field for 10 years. I met my husband on my first paid job at the West Point sewage treatment plant in Seattle. There was an archaeological site, they were expanding the sewage treatment plant, and they hit an archaeological 4 ,000 year old shell midden, which I actually mentioned in the book that we're going to discuss today, I bring up that shell midden site, because it's one of the most deeply explored shell middens in the Pacific Northwest.

3:08And, you know, being 4000 years old. It was a lot of information. And so that was where I met my husband. And he is an underwater archaeologist. He has a master's degree in nautical archaeology from Texas A &M. He's worked for the Navy's underwater archaeology branch at Naval History and Heritage Command, which a lot of my books are actually I have characters who work for them and do underwater archaeology. But he's worked now for the Department of Defense doing archaeology for the last almost 30 years for the Navy, for Army Corps of Engineers. And now we live in Okinawa because he is working for the Marine Corps, the U.S.

3:45Marine Corps. So, yeah, my life, we moved to Okinawa a year and a half ago. And it's kind of wild to think it's already been a year and a half. But it's been amazing. It's been amazing to have this opportunity to see this part of the world. And for me and my books, character, the setting is always a character. And I do a lot of foreign settings. So I'm my not brief introduction to who I am and how I got into this.

4:14Rachel Grant: No, it's okay. There's no need for brevity here on the Cobra Writing Life podcast. That's fine. I meant to mention, I guess, before we hit record, actually, because I think I first met you back in like 2018. So a long known of your like archaeological background. But just the phrase, firstly, the phrase underwater archaeologist is like maybe the most impressive connection of two words that I've ever heard. But I recently met someone who is an archaeologist, but they're also working in the field for like wildfire archaeology, which again, isn't something that I knew existed. And I was like, well, I have an author for you.

4:49Rachel Grant: I was telling him about your books. And he was like, wait, what? So it was like this whole interesting thing. So I've been upselling you through the Canadian Archaeological Society here. Well, and I do, that's one of the things I love in my books is that I do write about the archaeology that most people don't think of, you know, like that they don't know exists, that I'm not writing the Indiana Jones, because he was a looter, but that, you know, you know, I write about contract compliance archaeology, and, you know, private sector, you know, and NAGPRA, and all of the laws that that govern archaeological fieldwork in the US and abroad.

5:29And actually, I'll give a lot of people probably wonder, you know, why I'm in Okinawa, why my husband is an archaeologist for the Marine Corps. And it's pretty simple that we have bases here. We have a lot of military bases here, major Marine Corps presence, and the U.S. military has to be in compliance with environmental laws, U.S. environmental laws on their bases, but also the laws of the host nation. And so his job here is to make sure that the Marine Corps is in compliance with Japanese cultural heritage law. So it's, you know, it's a good position to be in, you know, it can be frustrating, you know, anytime you're working.

6:08But it is, it's fascinating, because, you know, we're here and his job is archaeology and we're living in archaeology is, you know, it includes recent history. So, you know, we have World War II sites everywhere. We live a mile from the beach where the Marines landed 81 years ago. And we go snorkeling there pretty regularly. And it's kind of amazing to look at photos of that beach and what it looked like during the invasion and then be out in the water and be looking back and seeing the rock formations. And it's like just incredible to, you know, and the community here is totally amazing as we don't live on base.

6:45You know, we live in Okinawan community and just everyone is so kind. It's just really just an incredible experience. And my husband's, you know, he gets to know a lot of locals because he's working with them on, he works with Okinawans, again, to protect their cultural heritage. So it's not a bad job to have. That sounds really cool. And I'm just like, I'm, okay, first of all, fascinated by archaeology. It's also a job that I thought existed in movies until I met a friend who's an archaeologist in Nova Scotia, Canada. But what was the light bulb moment for you while you're working in the field as an archaeologist, we're like, okay, you know what, it's time to sit down and write.

7:23And what led to that moment and choosing indie publishing? Well, it's complicated. I will try to give the brief version. There was a day in it was like 1995, 1996. And I'm working and it's pouring rain, I actually have a photo and I haven't put it on my website yet. Because but a friend recently sent me a photo fieldwork photo of me. And I'm just standing and I'm covered in mud in my rain gear and there's, you know, mud all around. And the look on my face is kind of saying, you know, like how much fun I'm having. And that was also the job where I got carpal tunnel for the first time. But anyways, there was one day when I was off by myself digging a test pit.

8:04And it was there was, you know, layer after layer of nothing, you know, and and so I my brain just started to spin, you know, what if you know, and like, just thinking of like, you know, stories, and I saw that was when I first I started plotting my first novel. And I never figured out how to make that one work. But but it was the first time that it was like, okay, it is time to start thinking about this. But that was again, 95 96. I didn't, I didn't really start writing, writing, until my husband got a job for the US Army Corps of Engineers in Hawaii. And we, our daughter was two years old. And that was when I was able to quit my job.

8:42I'd been working from home after our daughter was born or working part-time. But when we moved to Hawaii, it was like, all right. I actually told my husband a side note. He interviewed for that Hawaii job on September 10th, 2001. So he interviewed on September 10th. And I told him that night when he came home from the interview, because we knew he was going to get the job. He was already working for the Corps of Engineers in Seattle. And I said, okay, I ran the numbers and I figured it out. You should take the job. We should move to Hawaii. I'm going to quit my job. We're going to have another child and I'm going to write a novel.

9:21And we did, we did all that. Started writing the novel a few months after we moved to Hawaii. Then I set it aside because I had another child. And then when he was nine months old, I looked at the calendar and I was like, oh, I told everyone I was going to write a novel in Hawaii. And now we only have one year left. I really better finish it just so that, Like I was like, you know, that accountability of like telling people I'm going to do this. And I didn't want to come home from Hawaii. You know, I come home with my two kids, you know, so that was good. I achieved one thing I planned, but the other was I had to write a novel.

9:50And so I did. And that was great danger. That that novel was it's my second published book. I worked on it forever and ever. It started writing it in 2002, finished the first draft in 2005, got in finaled in the Golden Heart, which was RWA's big unpublished contest in 2008, got an agent in 2011. I did try the trad route, you know, completely. And then in 2013, self-published, starting with Concrete Evidence, which was the second book I wrote. And then one month later, published Greb Danger.

10:26Rachel Grant: That's like quite the journey that you've had. And I wonder, it's maybe a difficult question, but is there something that you wish you had known about the indie industry when you started? Or I guess it's changed so much. I think it's a hard question. Exactly. Indie industry didn't exist when I started. So, you know, I mean, I first joined RWA after I moved back from Hawaii. I joined in 2005. I would say like of the things that I wish I had known was, but of course, even this part has changed. I would have joined RWA sooner. I would have joined it when I lived in Hawaii, but RWA doesn't really exist anymore.

11:00So I can't give that advice. But I would say to authors, don't be afraid to join writers groups before you have a finished novel, because that was me. I was like, I can't show up at a group and say I'm a writer when I've never even written a book. And so I had to, I reinvented the wheel. Like I was like, that was constantly like figuring out how to write a book. I did it on my own because I didn't major in English or creative writing. And so that first draft of the book, I was absolutely reinventing the wheel. And then the first workshop I ever went to after I joined RWA, I went, they had a writing retreat in Washington.

11:37And the first lecture I ever went to was Kristen Hanna teaching Dwight Swain's Techniques of the Selling Author. And it blew my mind. I'm sitting there in the workshop and I'm writing everything down like two hours with Kristen Hannah teaching a workshop. It was pretty amazing. And I, that was a whole weekend long retreat. And then on my way home, I stopped at Barnes and Noble and bought Dwight Swain's book and, you know, read it highlighting and, and it's now integral to my writing. I'd say that writer's books for others, it's dry, it's boring. There's, you know, but the information is absolute gold.

12:22Even though it was written in the 60s, it still applies. And I would say Techniques of the Selling Writer by Dwight Swain and Goal Motivation and Conflict by Deb Dixon. Those are like, you know, get those books first. So that would be my advice, like the things to do first. But the indie publishing was just not really available. I remember those first, like, you know, hearing about ebooks, you know, and e publishers in those 2005-2006 RWA time. And then, you know, there were some publishers that came and went really fast in that world. But the landscape did not change to be a viable way to even, I mean, even get any respect, you know, and of course, it took several years to get respect after, you know, but, you know, it was it wasn't until 2011, that it seemed like it was really taking off.

13:11And that was when I had several author friends who, who were waiting in and doing really well with it. And the only reason why I didn't self-publish then was because I had just gotten my agent. And after years of looking for an agent, I wasn't going to just suddenly like be like, nope, you know, so I had to give that a chance. And my agent, she's still my agent. She's fantastic. Elizabeth Winnick Rubenstein at Macintosh and Otis. And she really worked with me on Body of Evidence was the book that she first shopped for me. And I learned so much even just going through edits with her. And that I don't have any regrets about going through that original process with trying to get an agent trying to get a publisher, because it tested me and taught me so much.

13:56I learned how to write between 2005 and 2013, you know, that time, because I was constantly being pushed by other people to really analyze the manuscript and break it down. And it was fantastic. It was, you know, I would be a very different writer if I was just, if I'd been able to publish Grave Danger without really, really dissecting it and going through it in 2005, I'd be done. I wouldn't be the writer I am today. And I probably would have quit, you know, because it wasn't good. And some people have a natural talent and they, you know, like they don't need what I, I needed it. For me, it's what worked.

14:37So. So going from that debut novel and the early days to now, Tara and I are so excited to talk to you about your latest release, False Flag. Can you tell our listeners a bit about this book? So this is a book that's very close to my heart because it's tackling a subject that is a problem for archaeologists. And even though I haven't worked in the field in more than 20 years now, my son is 23. so it's been a while. My husband is an archaeologist, so I'm still staying connected in the world. And I actually want to say I am not an expert in anything. I don't have a master's degree. I have an undergraduate degree in anthropology.

15:19I worked in the field for 10 years. I know a lot of people, a lot of really smart people who are connected in archaeology. And so anytime I'm writing a book, I know who to ask. And I get the information from them. I am an expert in nothing. And it's the people who helped me out, who really, really helped me to shine. So over the last decade, but, you know, things have really been shifting in the archaeological community, as far as the tone of pseudo archaeology, but, you know, we're talking about the last decade. So disinformation has been, you know, taking center stage, you know, quite a bit in the last decade.

16:00And so I've been mulling this book for a while. And I, because I wanted to write a book because most people don't know, the underlying premise for ancient aliens is that you're separating people from their, their cultural heritage, your indigenous people are being separated from their cultural heritage. You know, if you say aliens built the pyramids, then you're saying it's generally, you know, brown skinned people that are, you know, are being denied their cultural heritage. And, you know, and looking at pyramids, you know, all different cultures across the world. But, you know, aliens built all those, you know, and that has an effect on today when you're trying to do, you know, we have laws that protect cultural heritage sites, et cetera.

16:45But when you're separating someone and saying, well, no, you don't get to claim that. That's not you. It has this, like, you know, deep ripple down effect. And it's very much related to white supremacy. And over the last more recent years, there's been a huge push where some people in this pseudoarchaeology, you know, who push pseudoarchaeology theories are saying that archaeologists, big archaeology, and it's like capital B, capital A, they like literally are saying that big archaeology is hiding the truth from you. big archaeology where we're hiding a big secret. There's stuff that we know that we don't want to tell.

17:22And there's these lost civilizations that, that, you know, once inhabited all these areas, you know, Atlantis is real. Atlantis is not real. Atlantis was a parable. And so but a lot of people don't know that, like, that was my, my goal was like, Okay, I, I have a platform, I have readers. And the cat, I am not, you know, at all bothered by the casual person who just like, you know, Aliens are fun. They like ancient aliens. Or Stargate. Stargate was a fun movie. I didn't watch the TV series, but my daughter loves it.

17:54Rachel Grant: I literally just started watching it like a month ago for the first time. That's very funny that you mentioned that. You started watching Stargate and didn't tell me? I did.

18:08So yeah, and my daughter keeps telling me that I should watch it. And I know I would enjoy it. Again, I don't blame Stargate. I don't blame Battlestar Galactica. That was the show from my childhood that was saying that, you know, like it is fun. It's great fiction. And these theories have been around forever. Eric von Doniken, you know, the chariot of the gods, you know, like it's, you know, this is nothing new, but it's just, the tone has gotten worse and, um, and more nasty and being used. Archaeologists are being doxxed by, uh, pseudo-archaeologists who are like, you're hiding something and there are threats of violence.

18:43And it's I mean, it's real. Obviously, what happens in my book is fiction as far as the particular targets and how it plays out. But I didn't have to make up a whole lot as far as the foundation for the story. So my story is a grad student is seeking to disprove a podcaster who is a pseudoarchaeologist. And so she joins his expedition team to so that she can, you know, prove he's a fraud. So that's, you know, that and then they go off to Canada. This is set in Canada, which I really enjoyed. It's close to the setting of the first book in the series. So that was fun because it kind of got to tie those books together.

19:25And and I love Victoria. It's set in the Gulf Islands, the Strait of Wanda Fuca. And I lived in Washington State for a gazillion years until I was here in Okinawa. And so I've been to Victoria many times. And so it was just really fun to get a chance to go there. And I consulted with a Canadian archaeologist who studies pseudoarchaeology, and she actually does fieldwork on the Gulf Islands as part of her research. And there was a key piece that she told me that's included in the book about the native sons of British Columbia, which was a group who 100 years ago was pushing the theory that Mu, the lost continent of Mu, their theory was 10 ,000 years ago, the lost continent of Mu, which is in the Pacific, refugees from that went to British Columbia and settled in the Nanaimo area.

20:19And they had this advanced civilization, and then they disappeared. And their whole purpose for pushing for this was because they wanted white people to be the first people to settle British Columbia. And so they were again taking artifacts that were you know clearly coast salish and first nations and assigning them to some other previous white history so that was real i didn't have to make

20:44Rachel Grant: that up i want to ask so false flag is it's jam-packed full of plot like as you could imagine from everything that you've just sort of described and it manages to maintain being a really gripping read. And there's, you know, tons of character backstories. We have evil billionaires, like podcast conspiracy theorists, there's politicians, and of course, the archaeologists. So I would love to know, how do you plot your books so your reader doesn't get lost in all of these different threads? Well, for this one, I did have to come at it from a different direction, because I was like, okay, I want to talk about this subject.

21:23And so I reached out to the Canadian archaeologist, and she gave me all sorts of info on that. But I actually exchanged a bunch of emails with her because she studies pseudoarchaeology. And I was like, well, I'm thinking, what if they did this? And she sent me ideas back and it was great. I don't usually do that, but I wanted to know basically what was the realm of possibility with pseudoarchaeology? How far could I push it? And have it still... And honestly, it was kind of interesting to realize that there was no too far. There will be a conspiracy theory about anything you want to come up with.

22:01But yeah, so this one, so for plotting a book in general, I have to know the setting because it being archaeology and history related backgrounds and setting being a character. I need to know what the known history and potential history and prehistory is so I can figure out how that's going to play a role in the story. So I have to know the setting. And this one, I did struggle with figuring out the setting. I mean, I need the opening. So it is a romance. Like that's part of my writing. And I need to have that romance because especially when I'm tackling a difficult subject, I need to have something that's making you happy while you're reading it.

22:39Something that's giving you some joy. Like, you know, something that's bringing something else to the story instead of it being kind of, you know, bleak and everything. And so my hero, he's a Navy SEAL, and he's on the SEAL team that's been involved in the last few books. I knew that he needed to be the stand-in for the casual watcher of pseudo-archaeology, the casual consumer who doesn't actually think about what it means, the underlying. Because I needed to show the reader, like, I'm not, again, I don't judge, you know, people who are just, like, consuming entertainment. entertainment, but now let's look at what that entertainment is actually teaching you.

23:21And like, yeah, I get really vehement, like people, you know, oh, when my husband and I will tell people we're archaeologists, we will have people very vehemently tell us that they know, they know now that the pyramids could not have been made by, you know, like, and it's like, so that's that, I mean, I literally had multiple conversations like that when I'm like out at a restaurant or a dinner party. And so I wanted to write this book to address that, but I also needed to have a character who is that person who's come into contact with it, thinks it's interesting and fun.

24:00So that's who the hero is. He's that stand in for that, but that also gave me a great conflict. It was like, Revenant's conflict, yay! So I had that and then I had to figure out a logical, like again, like the whole, like the nuts and bolts of plotting. I had to figure out a logical way to get him into Canada because, you know, you can't just send a seal to, you know, go off on a mission in a foreign country. You know, so there was, you know, those little details, but between that and then just really looking at what the goals of the pseudo-archaeologists would be, you know, right now the pseudoarchaeologists that that you know are are out there and profiting from this they are profiting from disinformation they are absolutely and and use and weaponizing that disinformation in that they are you know getting people doxxed and and threats of violence and they are saying big archaeology is is lying to you they're they're they're keeping secrets and all of that is just because it's like they get more clicks and then they get more money like it's just you know, but there is also that underlying agenda of white supremacy.

25:12It's a recruiting tool, et cetera. And so, so I just had to figure out, um, for the story, how to, how to, you know, make that. But I also wanted to, to show that like, you know, again, the more salacious the disinformation is, but also package it with a romance with action and, and, you know, so that, so that you're like caring about the characters and, and, you know, wanting, wanting to, to see the happily ever after. And I also needed to write a happily ever after we could all believe in, because it is rough when you see all the disinformation out there. And so I needed to, I wanted to write a book that would leave you feeling satisfied in the end that, you know.

25:52Well, in addition to all of the like plot threads and plot that Tara mentioned is in this book, there's also a lot of really cool information about like actual archaeology and how that process works. There's also history and military terminology and politics. How does the research fit into your writing process? It is ongoing. I do a lot of, I write on a tablet that doesn't have internet or anything for most of my first draft. And the reason is because I could just go off on a tangent. I could just, you know, and so I'm just getting the words down, you know, blocking out the scenes. And, you know, I just, you know, write in brackets, you know, look up, you know, you know, everything was probably like somewhere in Canada, you know, you know, didn't have the place names yet or know where the airport was.

26:48But then as as I am drafting, then I'll, you know, then I'll paste that into my Word document. And then I'll go through and edit that and start looking up stuff. But then there's also the stuff that I had in my back pocket already because Steph, the Steph Hample for, gosh, I hope I said her name right. I was practicing it before. But she's the Canadian archaeologist who's doing work in BC. She, you know, sent me a bunch of stuff. She sent me a bunch of materials, like she sent me articles about the Hepburn stone, which was the native sons of British Columbia's, their key artifact that proved their theory.

27:29and she sent me some lectures that she'd done. She sent me some articles that she wrote about pseudoarchaeology, really fascinating stuff. I also, one of the things I did was I thanked her because, so as a writer, we often will have sensitivity readers for our books and a sensitivity reader is, I mean, that's gotta be a really grueling job because that is a person who is taking the emotional hits. So other readers don't have to like basically like making sure your work does no harm. And I've had sensitivity readers who are just amazing. And, you know, because I make mistakes. I don't, you know, and, and, and I want to get it right.

28:04I want to use the right terminology. I wrote a book that was set in the Caribbean that actually addressed a lot of, of the genocide that happened there and, and enslavement and everything. And even just understanding the difference between saying someone was enslaved versus calling them a slave, You know, like those those things that that she taught me. And I just was so grateful because she took the emotional hit. So I, you know, so that my my my readers wouldn't, you know. And so I talked to Steph after after reading her article that was really expansive. And she talked about the dark places on the Web that she's been to where she's seeing these conspiracy theories.

28:42And I was like, you are you are being that sensitivity reader. You're taking the hit. so we don't have to, like researching these things and going into these dark places and getting this information, gathering this information so that we know that this is happening. And I just, I'm grateful. I'm grateful for the work that she's doing and that so many other people are doing to push back on disinformation and pseudoscience narratives and everything. And so it is, it's not a job I would want to do, but I was super, super grateful that she gave me the information again, because then she gave me that information that I was able to incorporate into the book.

29:17And, and it just really, really helped. It helped frame the convert the one of my favorite scenes, I hope you liked it was the podcast recording scene where where, you know, Stacy gets to gets to break down Gerard's Gerard's theories. I liked writing that and and I actually was really gratified because I sent Steph read the first draft of the book. and she emailed me back and she said she loved that scene. So I was like, oh yes, I just want to, I want to do justice for Steph. We were actually talking about that scene before you jumped on. And I was saying how I wish that I had an audio book version of it.

29:57And I'm really excited to see or hear, I guess that scene in audio, because it would be so cool. I just listened to it last week. It's, I just, I just approved the audio book. So yeah, it was fun. It's like, oh, yeah, no, just really satisfying. It was a satisfying scene to write.

30:16Rachel Grant: Well, this book, it reads very much like a political thriller. But as you've mentioned, there's still lots of romance. So how do you decide when to take a break from the thrilling action to then go into a different type of thrilling action? I mean, it is a choice. And really, in this instance, you know, often the story leads me. This one, this was a harder book for me to write. my life was in upheaval. I started the book, I started the first, I wrote 6 ,000 words of this in January, or February, really, of 2025. And I moved to Okinawa in March of, one month later. And I ended up throwing away all the words that I had previously written and restarted it again in June of 25.

31:07And, and, you know, because in, you know, anyways, this was a really hard book to write, because my life really shifted dramatically. And, and then the subject matter was so important to me. And it was, and it was weird, you know, just this, this whole transition. And so I rewrote the first 60 ,000 words more times than I usually do. Usually, I can write relatively clean. And I go through and, um, and when I get to 60 ,000 words, I might like, you know, I have a certain points, like around 40 ,000, I'll go back to the beginning around 60 ,000, I'll go back to the beginning. And then maybe around 70 or 80, I'll go back.

31:43But usually then it's like flowing from there. I got stuck at 60. And I'm not going to talk about what happens at that point. But you might be able to guess. And this book is also my longest book ever. It's 123 ,000 words. So usually my books are between 100 and 120. So I mean, it's the it's the longest by only 3000 words, but still 120 is also still a long book. But I got stuck. And part of that was trying to figure out again, how to structure the the romance and, and basically, I reached a point where there were certain elements that just didn't work at the same time. And so I had to remove without spoilers i had to to remove certain situations and so then it was like okay well romance will take a back back seat here so you know and so so the romance is very much at the forefront in those the first hundred pages um and then um and then we we get to the island and then and then stacy's isolated there uh this new expedite team member on the expedition and um with you know hostile team and she's you know she's pretty much trapped there but it happens slowly.

32:53And so then we have to go into, okay, well, so let's talk about, you know, I was able to, you know, avoid going into too much about this pseudo-archaeology. And then we go into that. And so it really was an ebb and flow of what the story needed at the time, but also figuring out, like, because basically the reason I got stuck was because I was writing it wrong. I was like, you know, trying to, trying to get the, put the romance in the front seat when it was actually had to be in the backseat kind of thing. And so it is, you know, what serves the story. Well, you mentioned that, you know, all of your books have the romance element, but all of your books are also very thrillery.

33:29Like you live in that romantic suspense genre. So I'm really curious how you market books that kind of ride the line between really exciting thriller, but also really exciting romance. When I first started, it was important to me to put couples on the cover because I really wanted to sell the romance aspect. I didn't want readers to be like, oh, no, there's sex in this book. And then I got to a point where I was like, I actually don't care if you're bothered by the fact that there's sex in this book, because it is both, you know, and it is what I want to write. It is what makes me happy. and I mean I love the couple covers I you know don't get me wrong this those were a lot of fun but um my daughter over this course of my career she um got a degree in design graphic design uh and um so a few years ago I had her redo we started with my flashpoint covers because it was just a four book series and so it was easy to do and I wanted to do actually I'll show you my my hold it up because it's, you know, my phone, this is my phone case, my daughter redid this cover design, you can see it in the background there too.

34:34And it was so fun to just get to have this like really gorgeous cover that you know, and and I took the couples off I, you know, so I do the other thing about cover. Yeah. The other thing that as far as the marketing goes, is I market these as thrillers because the thing about cover redesign especially is is when you're changing your cover you do want to target a different audience and I'd had the couple covers and then I actually had one some that were for the evidence series I redid some covers on my own that that um were were more of like you know I took the people off the covers because I wanted to target a thriller audience and then and then of course I had my daughter redo both my evidence series and my my um flashpoint series and went you know really really i just love the covers they're just you know um really uh crisp here's an example of the evidence series where she just you know and there's 12 books so they all have this same format but different colors and everything and um because i wanted to target a new audience like target you know so and and i've already had targeted the romance community new readers and this this a romance reader will pick this up but also a thriller reader will.

35:50And so that's why I go that route. And then with the Under Fire series, which this is the fourth book here, I'll grab the false flag. This is the fourth book in the series, I actually designed these covers. And partly it was just because I did the first one into the storm, and then it did really well. And I've, you know, I just continued to do them because at the time when I started this series, my daughter didn't have time to do my cover, she was still in college. and so you know they work and they've done well and the next book in the series will be book five and that will be the final book in the series and I'll probably I'll do that I will you know make that cover too and then probably about a year after that's out then I'll have my daughter redo redo that five book series and and everything so that but again no people I am marketing them as thrillers.

36:41It works well for me because there's enough keywords. Well, one is the categories it goes in shows that it's romance and there's enough keywords in the blurb that if anyone, if you read the blurb, you know, it's a romance. And the majority of my readers are romance readers, but I do get thriller readers. And that's very much, you know, been Tony Anderson and I are close friends and we read everything each other writes. And, you know, we both very much branded ourselves, you know, as, you know, romantic thriller authors. I mean, that's, that is what we write. When we first started doing this, I even had editors who said, that's not a genre.

37:19That's, there's no such thing. And of course now it's very well established that it is. But back when we, you know, we, you know, I literally was told at a writing conference by an editor for a publishing house. She's still publishing. She's still an editor today who was like, I wouldn't request this because she was reading my query letter. And she said, I wouldn't request this because you call it a romantic thriller. And there's no such thing as that. But maybe there is. Maybe you're missing out on an entire audience because you're saying that people, I mean, and there's a huge, huge audience of readers who want that.

37:54They want that balance of romance and suspense. They don't want 70, 30 of either. Tony's books are fantastic. They have that balance and um and it's what I strive for too you know it's great it again it brings the joy

38:10Rachel Grant: to the right it's curious that you're marketing as a kind of thriller first and but your readers are mostly romance and I was curious myself because you're saying 123 ,000 words as well is probably longer than your average romance do you find that like they want to eat it up more or is that like you know that's a normal length for a thriller or yeah you know readers always want more. I fully expect I'll get, you know, this is my longest book and I fully expect that I'll hear from some readers like, I just wish it were longer. And then there will be people, you know, there's some people who are not my readers and who, you know, are going to not appreciate the length of it.

38:49It is long. It's shorter than Karen Rose. And Karen Rose, actually, she's another great example of someone who she's really marketed as suspense, but she does not shy away from the romance. And she's, you know, she very much writes romantic thrillers, romantic suspense, and I love her books. But she's her publishers really market them as as suspense, which is something that often they won't do for women, or at least, you know, traditional, this is this is one of the things about why I had to self publish why I had to go indie, I was trying the mainstream route and literally had rejections where and an edit a male editor at a major publishing house who was like, you know, a rainmaker for thrillers, said, this is one of the best submissions I've ever read, but we don't know how to sell thrillers to women even when there's romance in them or basically women to women writers.

39:41I was like, yeah, okay. You know, like, so they passed. And that was a pass on body of evidence. So I self-published it. You've mentioned that you've moved recently to Okinawa. And I have to imagine this has changed how you approach your writing or has changed your writing life a little bit. So I was wondering if you could tell us a bit about that. I'm still working on that. Like I used to write two books a year and publish two books a year. This is my first book released since December of 2024. But I also just had to give myself some grace. Like, you know, when you move across an ocean, things have got to change.

40:22Plus, I need to enjoy being here. And so I have started the next book in the series. I had actually hoped to be pretty deep into it by now because this book releases on October 2nd. And I'd hope to have the preorder for the sequel up, which I might. Kobo, can you if I put a preorder up with a year out release date, could I then extend it if I needed to?

40:49Rachel Grant: Oh, yeah. Yeah, we don't. Okay. So I'll put it up for pre-order with this book because it should be done by like next summer. You know, like it should be in past me. Absolutely would have it done by next summer. But this book took a really long time for me to write. My focus has been different just in general, but also I am, you know, telling myself, hey, you should go to Seoul for the long weekend. like, you know, a few, um, uh, uh, the Labor Day weekend, uh, in the U S is my husband gets the federal holidays cause he works for the DOD. But of course it's not a holiday weekend in, in South Korea.

41:30So we, we went to, to my husband took an extra day off and we flew to Seoul for the weekend and it was my first trip there. It was fantastic. And that's what I, I mean, we're here, you know, this is an opportunity that was unimaginable to me. And so I plan to do a lot more traveling. So it will delay the, but so far I've been to mainland Japan once, which was in July. My husband had a work meeting or was a training, cultural resources training. And so I got to tag along for a week. So that was fun. So we went to mainland Japan in July, but I didn't really go to Tokyo. And I've been to Taiwan because we have my nephew's wife is from Taiwan and they were here last September.

42:19In fact, a year ago, like right now, I went to Taiwan for, you know, and we'll be going back to Taiwan again. You should let us know when you're going.

42:28Rachel Grant: We have a Kobo office in Taipei. Oh, really? Oh, that would be fun. Yeah. So, yeah. And then, you know, the list, I still need to go to Tokyo. I want to go to Vietnam. We want to go to the Philippines. We want to like, there's just so many places that we want to see. We want to go down to Australia, which is still like, like a 10 or 12 hour flight, you know, because Australia is really, really south, but one hour time difference. So that I'm looking forward to no jet lag. I do like that Tara jumped in to say that we have a Kobo office in Taiwan. And I was going to say, I'm going to hit you up for recommendations because I'm going next year.

43:10So two different priorities, but you will hear from me. Oh, excellent. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, Taiwan was really fun. Again, my, my, my niece-in-law was basically the world's greatest tour guide, you know? So, so we, yeah, and it was a lot of fun. Really, really gorgeous city and, and exciting and fun and intense. As far as the like, there was a Times Square kind of area, like it reminded me of Times Square, except for it was Times Square times 10, like like the number of city blocks and the amount of noise and light. It was like wild. It was really cool.

43:48Rachel Grant: Well, it sounds like you have a very fun and busy time ahead of you. So I think this is going out after the launch. So congratulations in advance on the launch of False Flag. We had a great time reading it. And it was great to chat with you today about it. And where can listeners find you online? My website is rachel-grant.net. Couldn't couldn't get there's an actress.

44:13And I am on I'm most active on Blue Sky. And I'm on Instagram. I don't really do Facebook much anymore. I mean, I'll do posts and stuff, but I'm more sharing photos from Instagram into my Facebook profile. So, but the website's the best place to go for, you know, the book stuff. And of course, I have a newsletter, which I've been sharing more stories about Okinawa. Oh, we had four typhoons this summer. I haven't, you know, we had no typhoons my first summer here. And from everything I'd heard, there were no typhoons in the previous year either. But we had four this year so far. And I'm saying so far, knocking on wood that yeah, that's, you know, and they've been fine.

45:02I mean, Okinawa is built for this. So but it is it's been it's been an interesting summer. So I'm sharing those stories in my newsletter. So do sign up for my newsletter if you want random pictures of flowers. I haven't shared the bathroom at Ensole Tower yet in my newsletter. So that, you know, something to look forward to.

45:21Rachel Grant: It's the best view, the best view of soul. It really is. Well, thanks so much, Rachel. Thank you so much. This has been a lot of fun. Thank you for listening to the Kobo Writing Life podcast. If you are interested in picking up Rachel's books, we will include links in our show notes. That's Rachel Grant, not me, Rachel Wharton. If you are enjoying this podcast, please be sure to rate, review, and subscribe. And if you're looking for more tips on growing your self-publishing business, you can find us on socials. We are at Kobo Writing Life on Facebook, Blue Sky, Instagram, Threads, and TikTok. This episode was hosted by Rachel Wharton and Tara Kremen with production by Terrence Abrahams.

46:03Rachel Grant: Editing is provided by Kelly Robothom, and our theme music is composed by Tearderker. And thanks to Rachel Grant for being a wonderful guest. If you're ready to start your publishing journey, sign up today at Kobo.com slash writing life. Until next time, happy writing.