Kobo ReWriting Life – #46 – Using True Crime Podcasts for Inspiration with Courtney Summers

0:05Courtney Summers: Hey writers, you're listening to the Kobo Rewriting Life podcast, where we highlight an episode from our backlist that will bring you insights and inspiration for growing your self-publishing business. I'm your host, Tara Kremen, director of Kobo Writing Life. Happy spooky season. Halloween is on a Saturday this year and we are very excited about it. So I wanted to highlight another episode that's a little in the spooky inspiration with this conversation from 2018 with Courtney Summers. Courtney talks all about how true crime inspired her writing. So I hope you enjoy and enjoy your Halloween. So thank you, Courtney, for coming on the Kobo Writing Life podcast.

0:49Thank you for having me. So I'm just going to give a brief bio. So Courtney Summers was born in Belvin, Ontario, Canada, hello, in 1986 and currently resides in a small town not far from there. At 14, with her parents' blessing, Courtney dropped off high school to pursue her education independently. At age 18, she wrote her first novel, And Never Looked Back. Her first book, Cracked Up to Be, was published in 2008 when she was 22. To date, she has authored five novels and is best known for unapologetic, difficult female protagonists. In 2016, Courtney was named one of Flare Magazine's 60 Under 30.

1:22So, in your own words, can you tell us a bit about yourself? Oh my gosh, can I do better than that? I don't think that I can, but that pretty much sums it up. I started writing young, and I never look back, and that's what I devote my time and life to, I guess. Yeah. I mean, that's what I enjoy doing, and I'm lucky enough that it's my job. That's pretty cool. It's a pretty cool job. I don't mind it at all. even when it's hard. I mean, it's hard to complain about writing, you know? Like, it's like, it's not the hardest job in the world. It's not heart surgery, even when it's the worst. I don't, like, millions of lives don't depend on me.

1:54I'm cool with that. Did you always know that you wanted to be a writer? Can you tell us a little bit about your writing journey? I didn't know that I always wanted to be a writer. I thought I wanted to be, like, a storyteller, and, you know, that can encompass a lot of things. So I was like, okay, I'm going to be a famous movie star. Like, that was the plan for the longest time was like i'm gonna get an oscar i'm gonna be great didn't happen i mean it could happen i was just gonna say like i'm hoping like when i hit my 40s that's when i do the author actress thing you know you're like didn't kathy bates get an oscar when she was like in her 40s or something like that so why not me right you can do anything never mind the fact i can't act so i mean that might be a little factor nowadays it might not be that's fair yeah you've given me great hope.

2:40So yeah, so I thought I'd be an actor. And then I thought I'd be like a photographer, a cinematographer, a screenplay. I thought I'd write screenplays and be involved in the entertainment industry in some way. And then I was like, Oh, maybe I'll try writing a novel. I was like, Oh, that's what I'm supposed to do. That sounds great. Yeah, that's awesome. What exactly attracted you to writing specifically YA books? I think that's just where my voice fell. Like I started out writing like 20 somethings, but they all sounded like teenagers. So then I tried to write like 30 somethings and they all sounded like teenagers like maybe I'm being told something here and it's right why and I loved why like I would read it and enjoy it and that was the bulk of my reading at that time because I was like just out of my teens when I started writing so it just made sense to me I guess yeah do you think you'll always write YA books I'd love to write all different things like I think I'll always be have a foot in YA but as I age I hate saying that and become an actress.

3:35Yeah, that's true. Like, who knows? You know, there'll be the memoir of my time in Hollywood. Love it. Congratulations for Sadie making the New York Times bestseller list for the second week in a row. I still can't believe it. Is it the first time? It's, I've never, yeah. Yeah? Yeah, I was just like, what? It was so surreal. How did you find out? They emailed to say, like, because the list comes out at five, so at five they emailed and they're like, it happened basically, and I was like, oh my God, and they're like, we're going to call you, and I was like, oh my God. And they called me, and I was shaking so much, and my hands were on the phone so tight that my knuckles hurt afterwards.

4:10My whole hand hurt, and I don't even remember what I said. They were just like, congratulations. I was like, you dream about that kind of thing when you start out. So I was like, this is a moment, for sure. It was incredible. I should have said New York Times bestselling author Courtney Summers. Now I will. It's very fresh. Fresh and new. So it's for your book, Sadie. Can you tell us a bit about Sadie? Sadie is a book about a girl who disappears on the hunt for her little sister's killer and the popular radio podcast personality that dedicates a podcast to finding out what happened to her. And the book alternates between Sadie's perspective and podcast transcripts.

4:46That's really cool. Thank you. It is. And the girl's podcast plays a major role in the story. Why did you want to include a podcast specifically in the narrative for the story? Serial was like just ending when I started Sadie and I was so fascinated by the response to that like everyone was so into it every week and they were just obsessed you know at the heart of so many true crime stories are brutalized women so I was like what does it say about us that we like turn this kind of content into something bingeable like I'm not saying it's like I'm a fan of true crime so I'm not pointing a finger at anyone who enjoys it or people that create it but I was like there's a lot to unpack here and this might be the perfect way to do it so that's why I included the podcast like i don't think any book i've read has a podcast in it i think there was one before sadie but i can't remember the name it was adult though so okay and like the like format i'm like i've heard this before many times like music intro this is the story and i'm like this is the great you know i listened to the audiobook of uh sadie and it was just the most spectacular experience i can take no credit for that like audio did such a good job when i heard it i lost my mind I was like, that's my book?

5:58I couldn't believe it. It just didn't. You know, when you write a book, you can never experience reading it because you know everything. But that was the closest, I think, to an experience of a reader that I've had was listening to it. I was freaking out. It's just like everyone was so sad in the audiobook. And I was like, what have I done? I'm so sad. I know I felt bad for the first time in my life for what I write. You know, like, this is a mean book, Courtney. What did these people do? It was a mean book. It was. It is. I'm so sad. It's good. that makes me happy I mean I guess that's the 50 one yeah I didn't care I care too much can I put that on my book reader cares too much about this and you mentioned Serial is there any other specific podcast that you listened to during that period or that inspired you anything that you want to mention I think Serial was the greatest inspiration not in terms of like content story just like the idea of it having something out weekly getting people involved but i didn't really listen to anything while i was writing sadie it was after um like i was just winding up sadie when s town came out and that was so good that was that blew my mind because it started out like a true crime podcast and then it turned into this character study what you thought it was yeah did you cry i cried so hard and then i went on reddit to be like what happened and i also like criminal have you guys heard of that one I've heard of it but I haven't listened to it it's like short form true crime and I love Sarah Enney's first draft podcast which is like completely different from true crime it's writers talking about their process and these didn't inform Sadie at all but I'm just throwing them in there because everyone needs a new podcast to listen to exactly The Girls has also been created into a real podcast created by Macmillan can you talk about how this came about?

7:44they said they were going to do the podcast and I was like okay I had no involvement in it Well, I got to hear the audiobook actors they had selected ahead of everything being made. And I think if I had objected, they would have changed the voices because I've heard of authors, you know, making different choices. But I had no complaints. And then I was like, I just want to hear it so bad. And I kept my mitts off it. It was probably better that way. I don't need to mess up other people's creative genius. Like, they're the audio experts. I don't know what it's like to make an audiobook. I don't know the intricacies of that.

8:16So I was like, keep me uninvolved and just send me everything. But I had to wait until everyone else heard it, too. Oh, that's so fun. I know. I was like, and I didn't get the episodes ahead of time. I was so mad. Well, not mad, but I was like, can I invoke author privilege here? It was so good. I was like, I have to wait. But I got to the second week, and I was like, I need the audiobook, please, for business purposes. For science. Yeah. Are the episodes all out now? Well, six episodes were released, and it's not the whole of the book. It's just enough to hopefully get people to run to the book.

8:48nice little teaser. Do you have like a recommendation for how like a reader should go about reading them? So like read the book, audiobook, podcast? So you can do it like any way you want because the podcast is the scripts are pulled directly from the book. They're edited in slightly different places like they might be longer than the actual episodes in the books which break up more quickly. No quickly isn't the way I want to describe that. You know the beats are different. If you wanted to you could listen to the podcast first and then read the book or you could listen to the podcast as you read the book or you could listen to the podcast after you read the book it's really your choice you're not going to spoil yourself because it stops at a certain point and you need the book to complete the whole journey okay yeah so it's like a teaser yeah it is a tiny teaser yeah um so do you have any favorite murder mystery stories i don't know if i could say it's my favorite because it feels like a weird you know like i love this murder you know i don't want to say i love it because it's awful but the black Dahlia intrigues me.

9:45Yeah, because for a little while I was going to base the murder and Sadie off the Black Dahlia, just like the details, which are really bad. I don't even want to repeat them. But I just think there's something fascinating about that. The whole old Hollywood aspect, just the whole thing. Yeah, it's just so vivid and awful. I was listening to My Favorite Murder podcast and they were talking about the Black Dahlia and then I'm like, I need to see the photos. Oh my god, did that work? And I'm just like, No one wants that man right now. I don't need to explain this to anyone. Don't look at me. Isn't it awful?

10:19Yeah. I don't think I've ever looked anything up. I'm just listening is enough. I mean, it's not... Anything in your mind can be like, the picture you imagine is sometimes worse than the reality. But also these are as bad. Yeah. Sometimes I just need to know and I'm just like, I can't picture. I always look up what a serial killer looks like. Because I need the visual of like, what did these people see? What was going on? Did you ever look up Ted Bundy and he just looks like the perfect little church boy? It's like, ooh. I think Zac Efron is playing him. He is. I can't think of a better person who could play his.

10:51It's a pretty good match. Yes, I know. I don't know. That sounds so insulting. I'm like, yes, Zac, you would be a perfect character. But it's true. He's beautiful, but who knows what's going on in there? Yeah. Well, now we do know. Secretly. This whole time. What did the director see in him? That we did it. Yeah. Oh, gosh. Yeah. From High School Musical 2. Literally. I was thinking about High School Musical the other day. I've never seen it, actually. Oh, my God. Oh, no, I gave someone a heart attack. Do it. I'm sorry. I mean, if you want to see Zac Efron feeling his emotions while walking up a school staircase and basketball.

11:28Who doesn't want that? That's what you need in your life. That's probably what's missing in my life. It's good background information for when you see him play Ted Bundy, probably. Oh, my God. Like, I'm seeing you on an emotional dance. Too bad they couldn't cut it or make it like High School Musical 4. It was actually like the Ted Bundy movie. Someone will be doing that will show up on the internet. You gave the idea. All right, so we're going a little bit into a spoiler section right now. We're not going to spoil anything too major, but just a couple of names and bits and pieces that might be a little bit spoilery.

12:01So I'd actually love to hear you talk a little bit more about what West, who is the podcast presenter, said at the end about wanting to turn a blind eye to these cases. He said that it wasn't just because he had a daughter that made him apprehensive to investigate, but he mostly didn't really want to know. I feel like a lot of people feel this way. Maybe that's one of the reasons why they avoid true crime. And I was just wondering at what point do you think being too positive is more damaging? I feel like West was particularly avoidant of Sadie's story because, like, missing and brutalized girls are so commodified today, like, in our culture and society.

12:37And we treat them as objects. Like, once you do that, you, like, cultivate this idea of disposability. And I think West was very comfortable with that. Like, he was fine because he didn't have to look too closely at it. Because as soon as you look closely at that, you have to look closely at yourself. so he wasn't willing to take that step initially to realize that at the heart of like a missing girl story is a girl like he just didn't want to bring that level of humanity to Sadie's story because he was afraid of it is what I think like I think it was less that he was afraid of true crime so much as it was like his own bias against female pain and stories but by the end like I think he's turned a corner on that I would hope he like mentions like I have a daughter I'm just It's like, yeah, you do.

13:24And that, too, like, he gets called out on that, too, because he's like, Claire's like, you don't need a daughter to see the worth in another human being. And he was definitely, I think, ashamed of that, and he couldn't confront that about himself. It was really hard to get, like, into his head because the host isn't supposed to be the star, you know? Like, it's very hard to find moments where you could bring personal feelings of Wes to the front. But the deeper he got into it, it got a little bit easier. Yeah. Like the little snippets of his life. Like you find out like he's married. Yeah. Like all that stuff was fun to discover too.

13:56Yeah, I love that. Just finding the first, when I first started the book, he was like an angry divorcee. He was like, yeah, he was taking it all out on his podcast. And my editor was like, no, no. Don't do that. She was very right. It was bad. So I'm curious about the decision to have an open ending. I think we're all very, very curious about that. I feel as though it may leave room to reflect on how real girls and women also disappear on a daily basis. But I just wanted to hear your perspective on that. Well, I mean, in real life, we still very little get closure. You know, we just don't get it.

14:32And I have a reputation, I guess, for having very open endings that don't necessarily make it a point to satisfy the reader. That said, I do think this was the most appropriate ending for Sadie. it's not the nicest ending because it leaves so much up to you as a reader but i don't know like she set out to do one thing and that was her life's mission and by the end of the book it's about whether or not she accomplishes that and whatever happens next it's totally up to what do you think happened yeah i'm asking this is like this is a discussion yeah we talked about this yesterday deep in my heart i really do want her to be out there uh starting over fresh start but But I feel like that's not what happened.

15:16And then I think about him, like, this is what you said. Like, she had one goal. She accomplished it. And I don't think she planned to have, like, a life outside of her sister. And, like, so I want it to be yes, but it's probably no. I like to, like, divide people into optimists and pessimists. It's like, what do you think? Yeah, like, my first instinct when I finished reading, I'm like, she's alive for sure. And then I, like, talked to, like, my friends. They're like, what did you think? And they're like, no. And I was like, why? Yeah, but yeah. So, like, I'll be, like, thinking about it over time, and I switch my answers, which is...

15:48I like that, though. Like, if it's not on the page, it's possible. But I think you gave the definitive answer, maybe. I didn't. No? No, I mean, I didn't. Do you know what you want? I'm a pessimist. But that doesn't mean it's true, because I didn't write it. If I didn't write it, I think it's up to anyone. Okay. She's probably in L.A. Really? Enjoying the sun. Yes. Come full circle. Like, finally. now I can rest. Any advice that you wish you learned before you started out or that you've learned over time? I think something that I've learned actually quite recently with my last book, All the Rage, was I have a very definitive idea of how a book should be.

16:30And then when you start writing it, the book does what it wants. And I think the sooner you realize if you're not compromising the heart, you can change the idea. You can move wherever the book wants to go. I used to think you cannot, you don't deviate at all. You know, just as long as the heart of your novel is there, you know, feel free to follow it. Don't be so regimented. Do you have anything about, like, marketing or? I think it's, you know, the Internet now gives us such great opportunities to engage with readers that it would be silly not to take advantage of that. I mean, I find it incredibly gratifying to be yelled at by readers because they're often yelling at me, like, why do you do the things you do?

17:07Because, again, because I'm evil. But, like, it's so nice, you know, Instagram, Twitter. Twitter, Facebook, I guess. No, Facebook. Yeah, it's just a whole new level of engagement and making yourself real to them. And they make them real to you. Do you have a preference to, like, which one you like more? I love Instagram. Yeah, I love the visual component. And I love seeing what everyone's, like, eating. Yeah, like, I love when people post, like, their food on Instagram. I'm just like, oh, my God. I love to cook. There's some, I don't know, I wish I remembered his name, but he, like, makes pictures with books and like he'll be like on a sailing ship with like but he's in a book like I don't know how to just I'll show you I like how you're like you're the book we're all book people here and I'm like I like the food on Instagram I like the clothes as well oh the clothes and the makeup like Instagram makeup oh my god it's a whole other world out there I feel like so like YouTube is just fascinating to me and like when I found beauty YouTubers I don't know do you look at beauty YouTubers I do all the time it's a black hole you can't get out of it I like I literally can't stop and I just watch the mom she's like yeah What's your favorite?

18:10Okay. Tati, I like her. Yes! That was happening. You'd say Tati. She's the one that I trust the most. She is, too. I do. Yeah. I love her recommendations. Yeah. I'm like, anything she says, I'm like, I trust you 100%. She's a classy lady. And she is. That's the word. She seems to really love makeup, so that's why. Yeah. She hasn't sold out on anything, because, like, other people. She won't do sponsorships. I love her, Tati. Oh, my God. I'm so glad we could bond over this. Yeah. She's so great. Tati's great. maybe you should start a YouTube channel oh god I couldn't do it I love when you can just be like a non-moving picture on the internet yeah I was like I don't think I could do it no I'd always be looking at the monitor like do I look stupid right now that is actually one of the hardest parts yeah you were a booktuber yeah I used to do booktube videos so you couldn't just like if I see it because I was like have I seen her before and you never want to ask that question because no you didn't And you feel like, oh, sorry.

19:08Yeah, no. Back in the day, I used to do videos on BookTube. So, like, book reviews, book hauls, and just recommendation videos. And it is the hardest thing. Like, looking at the camera, at the lens, instead of looking at the viewfinder. Because most people that do YouTube, they want to have something with a viewfinder so they can make sure that they're on frame, that it's focused and everything. But you're always looking to the side. So then what I would do is I would put a little post-it right on top of the lens to remind me to focus on that spot. Because it was a bright post-it. So I would always look at it.

19:42But it's still, you can never. I couldn't do that. Completely. It's hard. It's one of the hardest parts. It's kind of like playing an instrument and like singing at the same time. I can't talk and play the piano at the same time. That's why Tati's so good. She's been doing it forever. She is really good. She's like, her brows are so good. I love how she loves high-end products too, but she's not afraid of the drugstore. Yeah. Because she, like, started me on makeup. Basically. Yeah. I'm like, you're the one that I was like, I need makeup in my life. Yeah. I was like, I've gone this far without it, but now I need it to live.

20:13All right. So what have you been loving lately? And it can be anything. Book, movie, TV show, podcast, YouTube video, YouTuber. You. I love Maureen Gu's book, The Way You Make Me Feel, which is super good. Have you guys read that? It's so good. it has the best YA dad. He's like the hottest. His name is Adrian, and he's just like, because I'm at that age now, he's just like the dads in YA. You guys must have read Twilight, right? You know how Charlie Swan was the YA dad? It's Adrian now, in my opinion. Okay. Yes, and Brandi Colbert's Finding Yvonne. It's so good. I love Supernatural always. That show is my obsession.

20:56Have you watched it? Is it still going? It's still going. I've tried to watch it. I couldn't. I know. It's one of those ER Grey Anatomies that goes on forever TV shows. But there must be something amazing about it to keep going. I mean, I have never seen it. I've probably seen the first episode. You have to sell it to me. Sell Supernatural right now. Wow. It's a show about family that just happens to hunt monsters and witches and demons and ghouls. But at the heart of it, it's about these two devoted family members that will die for each other and live for each other. But they're more willing to die for each other.

21:28They've died a lot in this series. It's really good, and it's underappreciated, maybe. Not, like, in the sense that it's very clever in ways you wouldn't expect. Like, there's a whole episode where they're actors on, they fall into a universe where there's a TV show called Supernatural, and they meet their own actors. I can't even explain it. That's how sophisticated Supernatural I can get. And they're beautiful men. I mean. They are beautiful men. They're easy to look at. Yeah, so that doesn't bother me at all. Like, everything you've said, I'm like, yeah, I would love this. It is. Maybe it's just like the nine season commitment throws me off of it.

22:00It's 14 now. I think I just, I look at the guys and I think of Dean from Gilmore Girls and I'm not a fan of him. But it's not his name. No, I thought for the, when I started watching, I did not accept that Jared Padalecki wasn't the character named Dean. Yeah. He's named Sam. And Jensen Ackles is Dean. And it took me like two seasons to get that sorted out mentally. Yeah, but once you do, you get past that hurdle. I mean, see, now I'm messing it up. I'm not team Dean and Gilmore Girls, so I think that's why. I don't think many people are. But he, like, did you, you must have seen the revival, right?

22:33Yeah, I did. I feel that he was the guy that aged the best. Oh, 100%. I was like, so why couldn't, yeah, so why couldn't, like, Dean just be, like, the one, but he never talks or does anything? He's just there. Yeah. I don't know. Didn't Milo have, like, the facial hair going on or something? I don't know. I only watched the Jared Padalecki part. Not the whole thing? No, I didn't. Not to spoil Gamora Girls, but now I feel like he is a dad. Jess? Yeah. Ooh. So you don't think it's Tristan? Is it Tristan? What's his name? What is his name? The blonde. Oh, yeah, no. I feel like he's a dad, but I think it's going to become, like, a full circle.

23:10Yeah. Yeah. So, like... Jess will be Luke, and then, yeah. I mean, it makes no sense. Oh, Logan. Why did... No, Tristan was, like, season one. Tristan was... Yeah. Didn't he show up? Did he? I thought he was like persona non-grad. Wow, these are all connected because I think of him and now I'm just thinking of One Tree Hill. I never saw that, but Jensen Ackles' wife was in that. Yeah. Yeah, so I mean, it's a whole CW family there. CW has some great stuff. It does. Dawson's Creek. Great content. Quality. Literally quality. I mean, what's, oh, Sabrina, is that CW? No, that's Netflix. The new adaptation, yes.

23:48But they do Riverdale, which I actually started and I loved Archie Comics. I love them and I just couldn't get into Riverdale. Apparently they're going to have a crossover. I mean, supposedly they already do have a crossover in the comics. With what? Sabrina and Archie. Oh, they did? And that's going to happen on the TV show as well. Well, Sabrina was always in the Archie universe. So, oh God, what are they going to, they're going to bring like witchcraft to Riverdale? Probably. Because the Sabrina reboot is dark. Yeah, the comics are. I was like, what? Maybe that's why it's on Netflix. It's too dark for CW.

24:20too quick. If Supernatural was on HBO it would be amazing. I always think about if a show was on a different network how great it could be. It's like oh there's so much untapped potential here. More swearing. We don't swear enough for people who hunt evil. I feel like Gossip Girl could have really excelled on HBO. That would have been amazing. How much more wild could that show get? They should have done it that way but missed opportunity. I was always amazed by Chuck Bass's fashion choices. I was like, wow. The clothes on that show were incredible. Oh, God. Okay. This is the most important stuff that is going to be in this podcast.

24:59Oh, we also need to talk about Peter Kavinsky. Oh, yes. I think you were on the podcast talking about it. Yes, I was. You guys saw it. Yeah, of course. I'm so mad about the scrunchie. Oh, yeah. I can't believe there wasn't like a end note on the scrunchie. Like, why couldn't he hand her the scrunchie at the end? That would have been super romantic. I need justice for scrunchies. Well, maybe if they get a second movie, I don't know why you wouldn't. Really? Because everyone loved it. The comeback of the scrunchies. The scrunchies. To all the boys I've loved before, too. Scrunchie time. That's a terrible title, though.

25:33There'll be a great video they'll have. Scrunchie time. Mystery of where it went. Limited edition scrunchies. She was a psychopath to do that with the scrunchies. She's going to murder people and leave a scrunchie on their bodies. That's her move. That's her signature. I literally think she's going to grow up to be a serial killer. Who does that with a scrunchie? Like, she very deliberately took that scrunchie, put it in her head. She waited. She waited a long time. She waited until a winter trip to be like, did you see my scrunchie? Like, that's a psychopath. I feel like she's a great character as an example of how intelligent and how, I guess, conniving young teenagers can be.

26:16Because I feel like sometimes in TV shows and books, people think, oh, the bullying happens in front of everyone. It's shouting things and saying names. It's not. It's behind backs. It's really a scrunchie. It's very, yeah, it's a very low-key word. But that is, it packs a punch. It does. Nobody here like Josh, right? No. No. He was terrible. He's cute, but, like... What's he got to him? Nothing. I mean, he's good for, like, Margo. Margo is the sister. Yes. Yeah, like, I mean, they obviously... She said she still loved him. So, like, what's going to happen next? Have you read the other books? I haven't.

26:47Me neither. No, me neither. Do you want me to spoil? No. I know the guy at the end is important somehow. John? Oh, he comes for the second book. Okay. Like, he'll show up. I absolutely love the fact that he was wearing exactly the same thing he was wearing on the sequence when he was younger. you can't change his outfit he goes to the same private school it's been years he better have washed it so I read an article about the Peter Kaminsky and he's a thirst architect and I'm like that is 100 % that's the perfect way to describe him yes have you checked out his Instagram before no thirst architect 100 % like it's the best article I've probably ever seen I'm like he walks into the interview shirtless into an aquarium yeah casually because it's so hot out and I'm like you would you know who else is I think like Anthony from Queer Eye Oh, yeah.

27:33His Instagram is totally that. He's half Canadian. Is he half Canadian or something? Yeah, Polish and Canadian, yeah. We get to claim him. Oh, yeah. Yes. Yeah, I think he did walk in our Pride Festival. I think so. What a guy. But he doesn't cook, so I have a opinion. Just the guacamole. Just the guacamole. Or the avocado grapefruit. Oh, yeah. Which tastes good, I will say. Well, that's the most important thing. I guess. Everyone's so down on him. They're like, you're not a chef. How can you claim to be a chef? he's like he's teaching people to their skill level that's true like you can't come in and be like here's like make a souffle like to these men that have never touched a kitchen utensil before because they let their wives do all the cooking did you see the episode with the lady and the church oh yeah yeah i cried my eyes out yeah i haven't seen that one yet that was really good can you give us any hints on what you're working on right now what's coming next i can tell you

28:25Courtney Summers: whatever it is it will upset readers oh you know that's all i want to do i just want to make them upset, you know, provoke a lot, you know, really visceral reaction, but not happiness. Okay. I'll deal with that. Yeah. Good. And then where can listeners find you online? Listeners can find me at Instagram at Summers Courtney and Twitter at Courtney underscore S. And they can visit my website, CourtneySummers.ca. Perfect. Yay. So thank you so much for coming on the Kobo Riding Link podcast. Thank you guys for having me. This was so much fun. No problem. Thank you so much. thank you for listening to the Kobo Rewriting Life podcast if you're enjoying this podcast please rate review and subscribe and be sure to follow us on socials we are at Kobo Writing Life on Facebook Instagram threads and Twitter this episode was hosted by Stephanie McGrath and Marina Ferreira editing is provided by Kelly Robotham and our theme music is composed by Tearderker.

29:24Courtney Summers: If you're ready to start your publishing journey, sign up today at kobo.com slash writing life. Until next time, happy writing.