Back and forth with Table Tennis England CEO Sally Lockyer: World Championships, China dominance and the NGB commercial conundrum

0:03Sally Lockyer:Welcome along to another episode of Leaders Worth Knowing, the sports industry podcast from Leaders, where we talk to the people worth knowing in the business of sport this week. I'm David Cushnan, content director round here at Leaders, and today we are tackling table tennis. And that is because over the next couple of weeks here in London, the World team table tennis championships are taking place at the Copper Box over at the Olympic Park and to the north at Wembley Arena, OVO Arena. 64 men's and 64 women's teams make this an enormous operational undertaking, one with some soft power implications as well, given the importance of table tennis in China in particular.

0:50Sally Lockyer:Big media attention, big focus from China on the action here in London. So to learn a little bit more on the show today, I called up Sally Lockyer, who is the CEO at Table Tennis England. She's been in that role since the end of 2024. Spoke to Sally on Tuesday morning with the action about to get underway on day one of the championships at the Copper Box. And we spoke about the competition and how it's been organised and planned over several years now. A bit, of course, on the potential legacy of the competition too. But we also talked about table tennis more generally in the UK, because at Table Tennis England, Sally oversees both the elite end of the sport, but also the membership aspect of the organisation, approaching around 30 ,000 members across the country.

1:38Sally Lockyer:We also talked about the pressures on national governing bodies more widely, particularly the smaller organisations, and the need to build out commercial programmes that are robust and, where possible, lessen some of the reliance on central public funding. We also discussed Sakir Starmer's UK government trade mission to China and Japan back in January, which Sally was invited to join to help showcase table tennis in Asia. Sounded like an extraordinary experience. So, time for a bit of back and forth now with Sally Lockyer, the CEO at Table Tennis England. Sally Lockyer the CEO of Table Tennis England is with me and Sally thank you so much for joining us on what might just be the busiest day of your year because we're talking effectively as the World Team Table Tennis Championships gets underway thanks for being with us.

2:34Very welcome delighted to join you.

2:37Sally Lockyer:And how busy is this day for you we're talking Tuesday so the action just literally just getting underway? Yeah, look, it's always a busy day on the first day of competition. I was in venue yesterday, walking around, looking at all the various different aspects of the venue. And you take a moment to just kind of think about all the things and all the planning preparation that's got you to this moment. But the venue looks amazing. We've got 12 live tables. There was loads of practice in yesterday. There's all the tech and all the cables and laptops and goodness knows what else goes in to make sure all the results and the video and the streaming are all in place.

3:18So it's a busy day today. I think the planning that's been put in place puts us in a really good place. There are always things that come up, as anybody working in events know, and it's important then that you can just address those and sort out things that come your way. but we're in a really good place and I'm pretty excited for competition to start.

3:41Sally Lockyer:And this is obviously the culmination of years of work and planning and bidding and it's important not to understate the scale of this tournament, this championship. 64 men's teams, 64 women's teams competing over the next fortnight. You've got a couple of venues around London as well. Just give us a sense of the scale of what everybody's going to see over the next fortnight or so. Yeah, as you rightly say, I think when Table Tennis England bid for this event back in 2018, I think it was originally 40 teams, 40 men's teams, 40 women's teams. It's now 64 men, 64 women's teams. So in essence, what that's meant is we've now got four venues.

4:22So we start here competition at the Copper Box. We're using the Bello Arena for practice and training on the Olympic Park. Then as we move over to Wembley, over Arena, we also then have another training venue. So we're operating four venues, I think, over the two sites in Stratford here. And then over in Wembley, we've probably got something like 15 different hotels. The great thing about being in Stratford and about being in Wembley is all those hotels are very close to venues. So it's walkable. And that's great for the sustainability element of the tournament. but it's a big operation. There are 2 ,000 people coming into town.

5:02Not only have we got the championships taking part this moment in time but we've also got delegates coming in for the International Federation's AGMs and summits and just in the middle of everything, just to give everybody else something else to do, there's an amazing gala dinner celebrating the centenary of the ITTF over at the Guild Hall. So there's a lot going on. There's a lot going on.

5:27Sally Lockyer:There's always a gala dinner, isn't there? You need one. What's been keeping you up at night over the last few weeks? How did you sleep last night right on the eve of the competition? Yeah, look, when you get into venue and you start seeing all of the elements of all the planning and preparation coming into place, I slept great last night, actually. I think probably as many people know, when you're in event delivery, it's sometimes a two or three months just as you're coming into the tournament that maybe gives you the most sleepless nights. and obviously I do the day job as CEO of Table Tennis England, so it's been extremely busy.

6:08But this morning we had BBC Breakfast in live, so I think the team were on site at 5.30 in the morning, so that was a great start. Media arriving, athletes are in town, delegates are in town. It's really, we're right in the thick of it now and it's just hugely exciting just to make sure we're ready here to deliver it.

6:26Sally Lockyer:You mentioned your other job as CEO of Table Tennis England, a job that you started at the end of 2024. Just explain a little bit about the way that you've spent your time since then leading up to now, because you've got this major championships coming. It was already confirmed and in the works and planning underway as you came into the role. You've also got, as we'll come on to talk about, a fairly sizable role in terms of running, managing the continued growth of Table Tennis England, both at a sort of participation, membership and elite level. How have you been spending your time? Where have you been prioritising?

7:07Sally Lockyer:And I suppose, how have you been prioritising? Yeah, that's a great question. So in addition to being CEO of Table Tennis England, I'm CEO of Table Tennis International Events. So that is a special purpose vehicle. It's a partnership between Table Tennis England, the International Table Tennis Federation, and world table tennis. World table tennis is essentially the commercial events arm of the International Federation. So there's dual roles there. I think, obviously, when you've got a major world championship and a centenary world championship in your hometown, the key focus there over the last sort of 18 months or so has been making sure that we can deliver the biggest and the best world championship, because all of the elements for England in terms of new fans, greater engagement, greater engagement with media, more focus on the sport, just gets lifted up many, many times when you're hosting a world championship.

8:09So we've seen a significant amount of interest in the sport just because we're hosting a world championship. And that's why you do it. I think we've also seen in terms of the performance of our athletes, since I've been here. They're all on a drastic trajectory, playing well, super excited about having a world championship in London. And, you know, obviously we've got a mind's eye on LA in a couple of years' time. So I think to have the world championship that's been a key focus, obviously there are things that are clearly important in terms of driving or people playing table tennis and being able to access table tennis is a key part of the legacy and social impact part.

8:52And that just links really nicely into all of the elements that we do as a national governing body trying to drive and grow the sport forward. So on the back of London and 2026 World Champs, we put 10 tables right across the city of London in partnership with the Central London Alliance. So they're all in iconic venues across London. We're delivering what we call ping hubs that have come on the back of hosting a world championship and other ping hubs that we've set up previously. So we're seeing a much greater interest in the sport and that's really on the back of hosting a world championship that gives us that extra interest in the sport.

9:34Sally Lockyer:Just explain if you would, Sally, a little bit more about Table Tennis England and its setup because you've got the high-end elite level as all national governing bodies do, but you've also got an enormous membership. What is the structure? And again, where are you spending most of your time? Well, what a great question. I'm balancing my time between the two at the minute. And as you rightly say, Table Tennis England, obviously we're part of GB Table Tennis. So when we compete at the Olympics, we are Great Britain. our elite pathway and athletes are funded by UK Sport who have been an amazing partner they're really recognising the success of our athletes moving forward so we have not only Table Tennis England we have GB Table Tennis and obviously we've got Table Tennis International Events so there's three strands essentially to the business and the structure of the organisation it's a membership organisation so we have National Council that we're working closely with and then I think when you look at the structure of the NGB in terms of you know the clubs the coaching all this all the various different systems and processes that we've got in place we're trying to just uplift all of those as we move forward so as well as as well as doing a world championships we're just in the middle of the big first stage of digital transformation which is actually going to be so important for the sport moving forward and then if I look at participation in the sport we've probably got around half a million people that play regularly through active lives we know that data through sport england um i think on the basis of where we currently are and if we're really clever and smart and we deliver all the things that we hope from the world championships we're on a cusp of a real explosion in the sport um and that's making sure that it's inclusive as you say it's easy to play we take table tennis to where the people are and of course when you have a Hollywood blockbuster movie about your sport that also helps to put focus and reach a new audience so we've seen a lot of young people seeing that movie some of our clubs have experienced people just banging on the door saying I've just seen Marty's Supreme movie can I come and start playing tabletop so there's a culmination of a whole range of different things that I think are really going to project us forward as a sport Have you seen the movie and what did you think of it?

11:59I have seen the movie. I think any national governing body that has a movie about this sport is pretty cool. It sort of tells an interesting story about the sport. And as I said, it's opened up the sport to people that maybe haven't seen table tennis before. So with the World Championships in town, they're just going to see another level of entertainment in the sport.

12:27Sally Lockyer:We're obviously about to see in London the best of the best in terms of table tennis and the best athletes in the world doing their thing. For lots of people, and you mentioned the half a million people who are playing and participating in the sport, but maybe see it potentially as a bit more of a hobby or a pursuit. Is that sort of a distinction that you make within the organisation with how you think about engaging new people? And is there actually a bit of a mission within Table Tennis England to turn those people who see it as a hobby, as a pursuit, as a pastime, into regarding Table Tennis as a more competitive sporting venture?

13:09Yeah, I think the sport has got a really, really strong club network, league network competitions that we run throughout the year. In fact, just last weekend, there was a national schools, the Butterfly National Schools Championships, as well as doing the world with just top and tailing the world with the schools events. So that's kind of business as usual. But I think that in any sport, what you want to do is you want to bring new people in. You want to be able to give them an opportunity to try the sport, to play the sport. Inevitably, there'll be those that pick up a table tennis bat, whether it's in a ping hub that we've got in shopping centres, or they pick up a bat having seen the Marty Supreme film because they visit a table in the shopping centre or outdoors.

14:00And they think that I quite like this. so what's really important is that there's a pathway for those people to take that interest further if they want to to do that and that there are local clubs that they can be directed to so they've got a really easy pathway and of course we want to build that base but the first part of that base is getting people to pick up a bat in the first place so as I said taking table tennis to where people are whether it's in communities or it's in shopping centers that that's going to be really important for us moving forward as you drive that growth in the sport.

14:35And I think also what's important is you make sure that you've got a really strong coaching framework. So you've got the right level of coaches in the right places. Coaches have the opportunity to also develop their careers. And then you've got that nice pathway as people get into the sport and love the sport and start playing more. There's a pathway into the elite performance side as well. So it's complicated but it's not complicated in some ways it's building the base and then giving people the opportunity to engage in the sport as they wish.

15:07Sally Lockyer:You talked about the digital transformation project that you're undertaking and I wonder to what extent is that about further mapping and further building your knowledge of this membership or this audience maybe beyond the membership who as you say might pick up a bat occasionally and play a bit of ping pong because it feels to me like table tennis is maybe, I'd have to think it through, but almost unique, unique insofar as a five-year-old could play and a 90-year-old could play. So what is the aim of that digital transformation and what do you hope it will achieve and what sort of breakthrough could it achieve for you?

15:49That's a great question. I think when we sit together as CEOs of national governing bodies, This is the one question that we're all trying to address. It's moving so fast to try and catch up and keep abreast of it is a challenge for everyone. And as you rightly say, when people are picking up a bat in a park or in a shopping centre, it's how do we get that engagement? How do we get contact data so that we can continue to engage with them? And that's part of what we're starting to do with our digital transformation journey. The first part is really clear that we're able to provide a really strong value proposition for our membership.

16:34We've got around 30 ,000 members at the moment. It's the highest it's been for some time. And what we need to make sure is that we've got the right technology behind all of that. So it's very easy to, one, join to be a member, then how you can enter a competition and then how we can engage with you and tell you all the things that we need to share with you. So we're in the first stages of that digital transformation journey. It's always on. It's always going to be on. But this part, the first part, is really important that we're able to give a new platform for all of our members, which will start on the 1st of August.

17:15Sally Lockyer:You mentioned talking to your fellow national governing body CEOs, and I know that there's actually, from what we hear elsewhere, there's quite good lines of communication between that sort of network. I wonder, and you're somebody who has seen a lot of national governing bodies from a lot of different roles over the past few years. what what do you what's your impression what's your assessment of the the current NGB model because a lot of people we talk to who are deeply involved in it um and some at larger national governing bodies some at smaller national governing bodies talk about the the particular challenges around funding and fundraising and engagement and eyeballs particularly at this moment, as far as summer sports are concerned, for those Olympic sports who don't have an Olympic Games quite on the horizon just yet.

18:15Sally Lockyer:What are some of the strengths and weaknesses of the NGB model as you see them currently? Yeah, you're right. I've been around National Governing Body World my whole career. I had a great experience being on the board of Triathlon England and I've just my previous role before coming to table tennis was in football CEO of Surrey FA and I was an FA council member and sat on a couple of FA committees so you know I guess I'm coming from football where you know with eye-watering budgets compared to what I have available to me in table tennis but like I think the CEO network is really really strong.

18:58We work really closely together. We share, we communicate, we address issues and problems that we've got. So it's a really, really strong network. I think the funding around the sport from Sport England, we've got a great relationship. I think they're really engaged with how we're approaching the growth of the sport. And similarly with UK sport, we couldn't be where we are with our athletes at the moment without the significant and ongoing support from UK sport. I firmly believe that one of the most important things that an NGB needs to do is generate its own revenues. So whether that's commercial sponsorship, whether it's fundraising, whether it's donations, so having a world championship that then enables you to grow your sport, to grow the reach, means that you become much more attractive to those commercial partners.

19:53And there's a big piece of work we're doing at the moment in Tableton is looking at all of our assets. How can we take, let's take that to market. And so we have a really fundamental responsibility, I think, to add to public funding. And we shouldn't just be sitting here thinking, great, we get that from Sport England and we get that from UK Sport. We've absolutely fundamentally got to generate our own revenues.

20:16Sally Lockyer:And do you think there's more, if we take the British NGB system. Is there more that national governing bodies could do together in a more joined up way to create a commercial model outside of the Olympic period? Or actually, is the reality that there's just so much distinction between individual sports and sizes of organisations and too much existing commercial infrastructure to untangle? It's a complex landscape when you look at how would you collaborate across sports. I'm a firm believer that collaboration across sports is important, I think. So we've done some activations through goals at football, for example, we've put table tennis tables into goal sites.

21:06And I'm always open for those conversations. and how can you think creatively to, you know, as a couple of sports coming together to benefit collaboratively. I think the commercial world, and this is just probably a personal opinion, is complex. The landscape, as you say, is quite difficult to navigate. But look, if there are scenarios where it would be possible to collaborate on commercial deals, you would do it. But, you know, if you've got international, you've got European, and you've got national, that it's a complex, very complex set of rights that you need to navigate. So I think we'd probably be a little bit selfish.

21:47We want to generate and make sure that the assets that we've got can be commercially viable. And also, I think, looking at CSR processes and opportunities around social impact, that's where I think we as a sport can find some real opportunities as we move forward coming out the back of the world.

22:08Sally Lockyer:And given the size of Table Tennis England and the resources that you have to play with, are there examples, are there models, either within British sport or further afield, that you can look at and take ideas, inspiration, and maybe look to replicate some of the stuff that's being done in a good way? Yeah, I think this goes back to the point about how do you commercialise your sport? Yes, we're a national governing body and yes, we're publicly funded. But as I said, it's important that we're able to generate our own revenues. So whether that's through streaming, whether it's through value proposition around membership, whether it's making sure that we're delivering really strong competition network and part of the special purpose vehicle that we have, Table Tennis International Events, is all about a 10-year major event strategy.

22:57So to make England home of world-class table tennis. and what we've seen leading up into the World Championships, we've hosted three smaller events as we've led into the World Championships and the idea is that very much we will build that into a 10-year major event strategy. So I think the major events does a number of different things. It gives you eyeballs, it gives you media, it gives you profile, it gives you a fan base and it also gives you an opportunity for your players to play in home soil, which I know that our first match England is for the men is against China and the women it's against Japan so our England team have got a tough first gig but you know you just never know what happens in a major event when you're on home soil so there are so many benefits I think of building a long-term major event strategy that also then links to your commercial opportunities and that how we work with the International Federation who own some of their rights to some of those major events.

23:58But I think we've got great opportunity right now on the back of the world. So there's some fantastic conversations that are already taking place with those brands that see the opportunities for table tennis.

24:08Sally Lockyer:You mentioned China. We must talk about China because when it comes to table tennis, dominance is a word that you might use. And I just, I wonder, I want to come on and talk to you in a little bit of depth about the trade mission that you went on with the British government fairly recently to China and Japan. But first of all, can you just give for anybody who's not so familiar, based on your experience so far, how big table tennis is in China, how important it is in China? Yeah, 300 million people play table tennis in China. From a very, very young age, it's very much table tennis is the number one sport, obviously.

24:58The elite athletes are superstars. I guess it's akin to football here in England, UK. It's a massive, massive sport. So what a base to build on. It's quite eye-watering, isn't it? 300 million people that play. and the dominance, as you say, is being significant and significant through the World Championships. I think they've won, you're testing me now on how many times they've won, but I need to talk about how many times they haven't won and it's not many. When you've got that base and you've got that ability to reach that base and build your performance pathway, we're very envious of that. That is a big number to choose from.

25:44Sally Lockyer:Is there anything you can replicate from what they do or is it just completely a different world, a different market, a different way in which table tennis is part of the sort of almost fabric of society? Yeah, look, there are always learnings, aren't there? Our team under Gavin Evans as our performance director, we have exchange visits with China. So the team has spent some time out there. There are always learnings. And I think one of the things that Gavin said to me is coming into the World Championships. Yeah, the team are up for it. The team are ready to give absolutely everything to it. But there will be significant learnings when you come into a venue and you just watch how everybody trains and practices and builds into the tournament.

26:29There will be significant learnings for the athletes, our athletes, as they watch others, and particularly the Chinese, and what they do and how they do it as they come into the World Championships. We're also hosting a coaching conference here, so some of our coaches will get the ability to watch some of the behind-the-scenes practice sessions. and that's an important part of learning for our sport more broadly. But yeah, I think the key thing here is that 300 million people, that is a massive number from which you have a base to choose and develop players.

27:05Sally Lockyer:Let's talk about the trade mission back in January. First of all, Sally, how does it work? Do you apply to join that? Do you get invited? Because I think from a sports perspective, and this was Keir Starmer's trade mission to China and Japan. I think it was table tennis and snooker, perhaps unsurprisingly, were the sports that made the trip. So how does it work? How did you get the call or did you have to apply? No, I didn't apply. I had an email out of the blue. It said official at the top. I almost deleted it as spam, if I'm honest, because you don't normally get an email from number 10. So I wasn't familiar with that.

27:53But yeah, I was selected. It was a huge privilege, a really amazing career moment to be part of that trade mission. 60 businesses, sport and cultural organizations to spend, I think it was five days in China and Japan. I think what was amazing was to see just how this machine operates and works and the speed of everything and all the activities and all the different businesses and places that we went to and receptions and embassies. We had the opportunity as Table Tooth England to put on a table tennis moment at the embassy in Beijing. So that gave the opportunity for some of the media pack to get on the table.