Does women’s football sponsorship work?

0:04Hello, and welcome to another episode of, well, actually, welcome to the first official episode of Leaders Worth Knowing, the Leaders Sport Business Podcast from Leaders, with Leaders, for Leaders, etc, etc. My name is James Emmett. I'm the editorial director here at Leaders. And with me as ever is my great good colleague, David Cushman. David, hello. And were you aware that we've rebranded? Hello. And yes, I was vaguely aware that there's been some sort of mini rebrand. But I think it's important to assure listeners that you will receive the very same service i would say a slightly uh a slightly revamped refurbished enhanced enhanced service we're upping i think we're up in equality aren't we david that's the plan we're gonna back this up with real insight i think uh i think go on then yes um yes the idea behind the very slight nominal rebrand is to bring the podcast uh the weekly podcast that we do here at leaders more in line with the weekly newsletter that we also produce, which is called Leaders Worth Knowing.

1:10And the idea is that one complements the other. What you might find in the newsletter might also appear with a bit more context behind it in the podcast and vice versa. So important to say, if you are listening and a regular listener to this podcast, you will need the accompaniment. And if you're not already signed up to the Leaders Worth Knowing newsletter, head to the website, leadersinersports.com. You can't have one. Dot com slash newsletters. You can't have one without the other tape. It's like a dog without mustard. Fish without chips. Yeah. And all the others. Hail without paste. Salt without pepper.

1:46Coming up on today's show, we're going to be speaking to Emily Heath, who's the global brand director at Rexona, the deodorants people. She's a sweat specialist. she tackles that and funky scents with deodorant brands but she's responsible for all things brand at Rexona and the family of brands around Rexona it's called Shaw in the UK but that branch of Unilever it is a Unilever brand has a bursting portfolio of sports sponsorships M has just got back from the Euros in Switzerland, where she went to the two semifinals that have just been played. And Rexona is a major partner of UEFA, both the men's and women's Euros.

2:39Also FIFA, where it plays a similar role, men's and women's international tournaments, also has any number of other partnerships in its portfolio. Chelsea, Manchester City, World Rugby and many more besides. So we're going to be talking to em about women's sports sponsorship uh specifically and whether it works for rexona how the tournament out in switzerland is going has gone and how to make an impact with sponsorship in women's sport and how to treat it differently from how you might treat a men's sponsorship. Rexona, Unilever, part of a really great suite of partners that UEFA has assembled for its women's football tournaments.

3:29It sits alongside Adidas, Amazon, AXA, Booking.com, EA, Euronics, Griffoles. What's Griffoles? Because that's the one that I keep seeing on the boards. Oh, that's a good question. Let me read the rest of the list. Heineken, Hublot, Just Eat, Leigh's, Lidl, PlayStation and Visa, who were all involved at Griffold. It's a healthcare company. Yes, pharmaceuticals. And I thought it was a type of mushroom. Okay. Okay. So, yeah, good suite of partners. And I don't know how much of the Euros you have caught, James. We're talking in the period between the semifinals and the final. And we're talking the calm before the storm.

4:08The calm before the storm. Yeah. And it, I think, has been another tournament of progression for women's football. Switzerland, the host, haven't had the big 90 ,000 sellouts of Wembley, which were hosted the final three years ago. Stadiums have been much smaller, but I think it's looked really good on TV. Haven't been too many issues with poor crowd sizes. I think the other thing I would say about this tournament with regards to the growth of football generally 16 team tournament perfect size for a national team tournament and I think we're going to see over the coming years Men's World Cup next year with 48 teams the plans to move the Women's World Cup from 32 teams to 48 teams for 2031 as well that's something that the world of football FIFA, UEFA really need to keep an eye on because this is a brilliantly packaged tournament at 16 teams, I think.

5:05So you think it represents progression for UEFA and for women's football tournaments. Let's see whether Emily Heath of Rexona shares your view, David. Here is Emily Heath, the Global Brand Director at Rexona. I am now delighted to welcome to the TV screen in front of me here at the Leaders Studio, Emily Heath, the Global Brand Director at Rexona, fresh off a plane back from Switzerland and the Euros. Em, how are you doing? I'm not as fresh as I'd like to be. I am really good, thank you. Thank you for having me. Yes, a tough, well, hopefully an enjoyable few days in Switzerland, but a tough travel schedule.

5:50I guess it's good working for a deodorant brand in times like this. You know, you need a stick in the bag, don't you? You need a stick for every part of you in these scenarios. And I think the England team definitely was a good test for those products on Tuesday night. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, no, it's been great. Good. Em, you were out for both semifinals. We're talking now on Thursday, the 24th of July. We're in between the semifinals and the final of the women's Euros. You were out, I think you went to both semifinals, I think I'm right in saying. Your first taste of the tournament. Give us a sense of the atmosphere out there in Switzerland.

6:34Yes, it's definitely my first taste of the women's Euros. I watched the last women's Euros when I was on maternity leave with my youngest. You know, the atmosphere in Switzerland was, it was good. It was nice. It was very friendly. I wouldn't say it was electric I'm not going to lie I just think that you didn't really feel the same presence that maybe you did when it was the 2022 Women's Championships but what I will say is there was just a very friendly environment a kind of a big community of people that were there to support the women's game no matter what nation you were from nations were talking to one another there was almost no sense of rivalry it was more just that collective we're here to watch a brilliant game or brilliant games um and it wasn't so much about that kind of tribal raw quite aggressive rivalry that you sometimes see at men's tournaments um i went to the england v italy game on tuesday night and actually you got a real sense of just fun energy it was a bit of a party atmosphere but a nice party atmosphere and then yesterday when we went to Spain and Germany when we were approaching the stadium it just felt like you were going to a pub for the evening like it was really calm everyone was just standing around having a bit of a chat there was no chanting or I don't know there was no sort of sense of like energy or electricity but it was just very nice uh that's probably the best way I can put it but what I do think it does do is it has created a very welcoming environment for people who may not have previously engaged with the tournaments before to come and experience it and just come and experience it for the love of the game, if nothing else.

8:24Because that's almost what it comes to when you come to these women's tournaments. I think it's more about the love of the game, less about that kind of tribal war patriotism. Like it's just so different. I guess maybe there's some impact in Switzerland, the home nation not having progressed to the semi-final stage but do you think there's maybe something in I mean this sort of unexpected uh difference that you noticed in atmosphere dynamism of the atmosphere between this tournament and the the one that was in England um a few years ago or in in the UK a few years ago do you think that's you know with a marketing head on is that um you know something different in the activation execution of the tournament organizers or is it and maybe just a national mentality thing and you know Swiss people are a certain way and English people are a certain way I mean I think there's definitely cultural differences whether that really impacted the experience I don't know what I think is different is that England is a very has a very historic relationship with the game and that's not to say that Switzerland doesn't but I think what you really experience in England is just fundamentally how football is just woven into the fabric of the country.

9:43And so therefore, if there's football on, I think football is celebrated to the end pretty much. And I know it's very different across male and female. I do also think there was an element of in the 2022 tournament and it was probably the first significant tournament coming out of the COVID area. And so therefore it probably was a time when people fundamentally just felt, do you know what, we can come back together, we can properly celebrate sport again and so we're going to really celebrate sport and it just so happened that in that England were absolutely on fire and owning that tournament and performing so well that it really helped and lifted the nation which actually then really acted as like a catalyst for women's football in this country I think it's just a bit of a slightly different era when you go to Switzerland um I wouldn't say that you really got a sense that the tournament was happening in Geneva when you got down to the lake Geneva Lake there were all the flags like the UEFA flags and the nation's flags like surrounding the lake on the city part of the lake and actually when we walked to the stadium for the England-Italy game there was a sort of march of fans and there were actually Facebook groups set up sort of saying oh we're going to start marching from here and head towards the stadium so you could follow that when we went to Zurich you know there was a fan fest but it was very small like it was it was a bit of it was a bit of small rigging going on with like a stage and stuff there was no flags you just really get a sense that the tournament was happening and then when you got to the stadium like there was no real march of the fans um it was just a bit more low-key and um i'd say it's a bit of a shame but i don't know if it's really switzerland's fault it just it just felt a bit of a shame because we'd obviously had this such amazing experience in in the uk and then when it was the women's world cup in 2023 in australia new zealand they really embraced it and they really got behind it and they kind of did massive activations it just wasn't quite on the same scale em could you explain uh what why you were there i guess um um tell us a little bit about the role at rexona rexona is is of course one of the um do you call them deodorants anymore so is that a personal care what's the uh yeah personal care is like the unit that deodorant sits within and then deodorant is the the category but you're very much a deodorant executive right you are yeah i am your sweat expert there's not much i don't know about sweat great um yeah so um give us a sense of what the role is global brand director at rexona and the relationship that you have with the women's heroes yeah so my my role specifically is to really think about how the brand rexona the brand or sure if you're listening from the uk how that becomes famous how that becomes known and what the brand stands for looks like sounds like how it kind of comes across into the communications um specifically when it comes the likes of the women's euros or um our relationship with fifa i look after all of our global partnerships as well as all of our global ambassadors and i have a really a dedicated team that work under me that are there to kind of activate and bring these to life and so you know my role is to really identify who those partners can be if they're partners that are just for rexona versus the border unilever personal care piece and then who those ambassadors are and then how does that all weave through the wider brand and our products and our communications.

13:26Why we were at the Euros, I mean, one, through the personal care deal, we are a sponsor of the Euros, both male and female tournaments. But actually why we were there is we wanted to go and actually speak to fans of women's football in the heart of the female or the women's European Championships tournament, because there's no better time to sort of engage in the tournament than engage in the conversation when one of these tournaments is happening because people are in the mindset they're living that experience and so you can have a really great conversation about what is their relationship with women's football how did they get into it what do they want to see from the game what do they want to see from brands how can that help us really plan for the future because we're sort of we're in this journey for the long haul and we want to ensure that we're treating women's football as women's football and not treating it as the men's game so it's really important to go and engage with fans.

14:17So that was really why we were there. And then it was a bit of a Brucey bonus that we got to watch the semifinals. And it was pure luck, well, not pure luck, skill as well. But it was just brilliant that England were playing on one of the days we were going. Yeah, so it was a bit of a treat. I got to see England play, England women play internationally. It's the first time I've seen them play somewhere international. So it was just an incredible experience. Yeah, and certainly watching it back here in England, there definitely was a buzz about the place. And, you know, England has certainly made a habit, this tournament, of leaving things unnecessarily late, in my view.

14:54I don't know if they're like taking a leaf out the men's book from last year, because it felt like that was what happened last year. It's just like, this is deja vu a bit, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, big time. Leaving us all sort of a little bit sweaty, I suppose, to pick up on the theme. um how successful has the tournament been for rexona specifically do you know how successful it's been yet well uh yes and no we we wouldn't be evaluating properly at this point we would really look to like when the tournament ends and then we would do a full what we call a post-launch evaluation um we can get a sense of how some stuff is performing say if it's stuff that's through social because you get a bit more of an immediate reaction because you can see how it's engaging what's the sentiment is it being shared um so you can look at those things more instantly but things like sales you know those those things that those data points take a lot longer to come through similar with tv understanding the audience and therefore like the return on investment so you know for every dollar we're spending what are we getting back I would say it's positive I think we've got a lot to learn pushing into 2027 when it's the Women's World Cup in Brazil and I think what we really need to learn or really get a grip on is how to fundamentally disrupt the women's game and how to really get the attention of the fans because it's not as developed as men's there isn't actually as much opportunity when it comes to the likes of fan fests or in-stadium activations.

16:34It's a lot more stripped back. So therefore, the ability to really go as all-in as you can when it's a men's tournament is more limited. So we've got to be very, very tactical and very specific about where are the areas, where are the channels, what are the types of pieces of content that's really going to perform and cut through. So that's really what this tournament's about, is to help us really learn when we head towards 27. It's not like we didn't have lots of learnings off the back of 23 and what happened in 22. But I think given that the European championships do get such a sizable audience, I think it's like 2 million people have been tuning into the Women's Euros this year.

17:13You know, it really helps us understand what we need to be doing. When you come to that fuller evaluation phase, what, and I'm sure you're measuring absolutely all sorts, but what are the sort of top two or three most important metrics for you? The things that are going to define at a really top level, was this a successful thing for us to partner? Yeah. So we've got, well, sales data will be really important. We'll be looking at have we had a sales uplift versus previous year, same period, so like same activation window. We'll be looking at overall brand power, which is really just fundamentally understanding how well your brand is performing on metrics that aren't very specific to the sales.

18:00So it's looking at your like value perception or how different you are, how meaningful you are. Like, are you physically and mentally available to them as a brand? So we'll be looking at that as well. And then the last one is really what's that media value? You know, as I said a minute ago, it's really like for every euro we are spending, what are we getting back? um that's that's that's really easy when you're looking at the likes of broadcast assets so it's really important for us to fundamentally understand like media value behind partnerships so armed with a little bit of research um i can see that i think i think i'm right in saying that this is the first time for a women's sports property at least that you have um taken a global campaign but activated sort of independently in different markets with different specific assets is that right am i on to something there um but you've got different players almost i'm almost there um you you've got different brand ambassadors um doing messaging for you in different markets so uh lucy bronze over here in the uk you've got julia gwynne in germany Vivian Miedemar in the Netherlands and Alexia Putelas in Spain doing sort of localized versions of your overall global brand campaign.

19:29Talk us through the rationale of that, how you arrived at the decision to do that, how much more complicated it is to do than what you might have done previously and yeah, how you think it's gone. I mean, the complexity is because that you're essentially having to produce for different campaigns, let's be honest. They were all sitting under the overarching message of It Won't Let You Down, which is a brand promise we've been saying for quite a few decades. But what we felt was really important with this tournament is to give a voice to the players we're working with and to really understand something about them that's really been part of their football journey and kind of represents who they are.

20:12So we wanted to bring to life their individual story and how that almost ladders up to the idea of It Won't Let You Down. So, you know, for Lucy Bronze, she is the epitome of defense and protection. That is her role within the England team and she does it so well. And so, you know, we wanted to talk about the concept of what does protection mean? Because from us as a brand, essentially we protect you against Sputinoda. So you could draw those, make those dualities across us. And that essentially ladders up to It Won't Let You Down. And for Julia, it's such a shame that she got injured right at the beginning of the tournament.

20:48Like really sad, but actually it was really nice to see that she was still there yesterday supporting the team, like sitting on the bench supporting the team. But she entered the tournament as the captain and she had the weight of Germany sitting on her shoulders and all the pressure that comes with that. and then Viv had been coming back from injury and that comes with its own struggles and sort of self-confidence and belief and we just really wanted to bring that back and then there's something like Alexis, what a phenomenal athlete she is and she just has so much presence but she's had to overcome quite a lot.

21:23She's got a lot of resilience and determination and so each has got their own little story and it almost feels a bit strange to just kind of bring them all together and have one story that unites them all because it's not really the reality. I think women's football has got such a story behind it that kind of brings in all that idea of defence, protection, resilience, pressure. I'm not saying the men's doesn't, it's just different. But I think it's really important to give that a bit of a stage. So that's why we decided to kind of pull their stories apart but keep that redded thread of it won't let you down to all of them.

21:58I'm interested in your view on what the fundamental differences are between working with elite female athletes, the likes of which you've just run through there, and also, I guess, elite male athletes, which, you know, Rexona and Unilever in general has such a massive range of sports sponsorships, lots of partnerships with lots of properties and lots of individuals. you are in a really good position to draw a direct comparison between working with star women's footballer star men's footballer certainly the narrative a few years ago used to be that on the women's side the athletes make themselves a lot more available they understand the importance of the commercial work being open honest accessible etc they're much more open to creative ideas and working in partnership and the men are bluntly overpaid prima donnas who don't want to give the the time for anything of course that's a generalization does that still hold true yeah um i think you know that it's just such a different journey on the sides if you look at the women's game i you know it's not reached where it needs to reach yet it's still developing it's still scrambling it's still fighting and trying to prove itself and trying to get that respect that it fundamentally deserves and there's an element that the all the players whether they're in countries like England where you know it's a bit more established or whether in countries like India where you know less than one percent of women are playing football there's such a sense of women have got to have a bit of self-direction and independence they're having to be more creative with their journey.

23:42You know, some of them do have multiple jobs in order to be able to play professional football. And, you know, that's still the case in England. It's only really some of those clubs where the players are paid a decent wage that actually they don't need to do that anymore. So there's a real resilience behind those individuals in the women's game. What I would say is different about the men's is I think, you know, there's such a pathway for the men's game you know from academy level all the way through you know if you're going to be a successful footballer you're probably identified at the age of five or six it's like that young as a man and then your your journey is almost set um and you've got all the support all the infrastructure around you to be a success like um whether that's like campus academy living or whether it's the physios the nutritionists the psychologists the the s and c coaches it's all there ready to kind of say you're up and it's not like that for women yet and the only thing i'd say for for men that they probably experience more differently from women is the the pressure is very intense you know if they don't if they don't perform well in a match um or they do something that the fans don't like they're it you know they're the the fans are very aggressive and very vocal um you know and it's that can be very hard for anyone to take on and i think we don't give the male players enough credit for the fact that they really you know when it when they get backlash they get backlash and it you know at the end of the day it's just kicking a football no one should be treating in that way and i think the women's game they get the horrible kind of misogynistic comments of oh women shouldn't be on the pitch they should be in the kitchen or it's not as good as the men's game and stuff like that but what i don't think is they get that aggression and anger like coming at them in a way that is almost just completely like undeserved yeah yeah that's an interesting perspective um could you just uh briefly run through the the major properties that you've got in your portfolio that you specifically have um ages over obviously you mentioned the ua for men's and women's uh euros or you know international tournaments um you've got a similar deal with fifa as well chelsea and yeah what what else do you have okay so under there's fifa uh there's um conca-caf so um this is a good test for you actually i'm to remember so fifa male and female like senior tournaments as well as the women's under 20 tournaments then We've got like the Gold Cup through CONCACAF.

26:25We had Copa America last year, but just the male tournament. We've got under UEFA, we've got the male and female European championships. Then through CAF, we've got the AFCON and WAFCON tournament. So the Women's African Confederation final is actually this Saturday. Yeah, it's this Saturday. and then we've also got in Latam we've got Copa, Libertadores and Copa I can never pronounce it sublimit the the other one and then we've got Chelsea and we've got Manchester City and so quite a few there are also local club partnerships so Germany's got the German national team Mexico's got the Mexico national team so is Canada but those ones because they're local contracts that you actually manage specifically in those countries.

27:16Okay. So a fair number of properties in your portfolio. It's fair to say on any given day of the week, you could be going to one of your sponsored properties. I think if you were to have like a kind of a, you know, your fantasy football of football partnerships, I think we tick most boxes. So the only thing I don't have is a European club like a Barcelona or Real Madrid that'd be cool well watch out guys watch out well on that front um how do you and we were talking about leaders earlier and um how is one of your favorite events to come to but it's also it's also a little bit tiring um in terms of being approached left right and center how do you as a uh a senior marketing representative of a big sponsor brand how do you like to be approached?

28:06I don't know I think it just people need to come with a point of view of really understanding our brand and therefore why a relationship would make sense I've had I think I might have mentioned this at Sports Pro is that I get a lot of people reaching out to me via LinkedIn or somehow via directly via email but to be honest Unilever emails are pretty easy to like crack um and they just sort of say oh i'd love to work on a partnership with you but there hasn't necessarily been a sense of they've done any research into why um like what what do they know about my brand versus their property why would that make sense for us for them to come together um you know we we approach the likes of fifa or uefa man city and we we approach them with a sense of so this is who we are and this is who we think you are so and we can see how we've got shared values and we can see how we've got ways that we can benefit one another and we sort of thought of some ideas that maybe we could do together so before we've even engaged in a conversation with them we've done that sort of proposal we've come with a really a point of view that helps kick off a conversation versus just let's partner and I think the thing that a lot of these in like right holders or agencies don't understand is that you know quite a lot of the time we are um you know we've got our roster of agencies that we're already working with who are approved like rostered agencies so there's not always the ability to kind of go with um startups or we've got a full calendar of partnerships already and that other partnership might already be fulfilling a job that one of the existing partnerships is already doing.

29:54So why would we go with another one? So I think sometimes people need to walk a little bit in your shoes before they approach you because that's exactly what we would do. We would just never approach anyone without at least thinking, why, why would this make sense for us and you? So I think that's what I would say to people is like do a bit of homework and come with some thinking because that is where actually those conversations are the most powerful. Yeah. And thinking about the existing partnerships that you do have, of course, you're very sort of evenly spread across your portfolio between men's and women's sport, men's and women's football.

30:33Do you prefer to do a bundled deal or do you sort of treat them differently? If FIFA comes to you with a proposition, are you separating out the women's properties, evaluating those on their own, also doing it for the men's? It might be that you just do one or the other or you sort of let's take it as a whole. That's an easier thing to do. I think when it came to both UEFA and FIFA, it was really important that within the contracts we had male and female properties. And actually there's, say with FIFA and actually the Rugby World Cup. I forgot we're doing the Rugby World Cup, by the way. We have two of the senior female tournaments within the contract, but only one of the men.

31:14So we say we started FIFA with the women's under 23, I mean, the women's 2023 tournament, and it goes through to the women's 2027 tournament. So it was really important for us that women's was a key focus of those relationships. yeah um what's really important for us when we think about something like a fifa i mean it's an absolute beast of a of a partnership and it's an incredible partnership the scale it gives you the the opportunity to be having so many conversations and creating so many experiences i think it's right that unilever's approached it with that scale mentality across multiple brands because actually I think it'd be quite a challenge for just one of Unilever's brands to really carry and deliver the return on that partnership.

32:02You know, it really does need that collective coming together. And Unilever balances it in quite a good way. There are moments when we actually all come together and there are moments when we have to be those individual brands within the partnership. But I think it was right that the partnership was for Unilever personal care and not just Rexona. I mean, selfishly, I want, you know, the lion's share of it because why not? But I don't think Rexona can do it on our own, not this one. But when it comes to something like Manchester City or Chelsea, that should be an individual brand. Like that should be a much closer relationship that's very specifically about that one brand and that one club and why they make sense together.

32:45so we the way we look at partnerships in unilever is really fundamentally understanding the role of that partnership and where it makes the most sense to be playing is it multi-brand or actually is it very connected to just one brand story and that's why we have the difference you know ax or links as it's called in the uk has got its own partnerships doves got their own partnerships but then there are times when we come together i'm just having a big flashback to the 90s and lynx africa just being absolutely everywhere do you know i think for our generation because i'm guessing we're the same generation i think lynx sorry lynx africa has got such a special place in the heart of the 80s 90s babies totally ridiculous isn't it but yeah big time big time never failed did it spray a bit of lynx africa on you irresistible that's uh that was the message my husband still gets given a links africa gift set every christmas by a member of his family and i'm like i can get this freely free you don't need to pay for it classic um final question em and thank you very much for your time on this but it's it's on it's on women's sport as a commercial as a sponsorship proposition in general and the mood music across the industry is very much um There's this fantastic momentum.

34:02Clearly, women's sport in general is gaining ground. It's gaining credibility. Yeah, there's this momentum across multiple different sports and in multiple different verticals and channels. But there still is this, I guess, an imploration of the industry to sponsor brands to kind of pay up, right? Like we've all been talking positively about women's sport. It's time for sponsors, specifically broadcasters as well, to put their money where their mouth is and support women's sport. Obviously, Unilever and Rexona already does that. But it does strike me that when you get into the nitty gritty of measuring marketing impact, there's still a vast difference between some of the big men's properties and some of the big women's properties.

34:51You just basically spelled it out for us earlier on on the podcast. So I wonder what your advice would be to major women's sports properties who are looking to position themselves for greater commercial impact. How do you beef up the commercial proposition of women's sport? Yeah, and it really shouldn't be compared to the way you would measure men's sport because it's fundamentally different and the size of the landscape is different. but actually there's a lot of richness in women's sport. The audiences are very different. Younger audiences are coming in, like family dynamics are coming in. The ability to tell more stories within women's sport, that's what the fans are looking for.

35:41They want to hear the stories. They want to understand the journey. They also want to fundamentally see the values of women's sport aligning with the brands that are coming in. you know they don't want just any brand there they want the brand that fundamentally they believe represents the values of women's sport um i think in terms of how it benefits back to a brand like one yes you're accessing audiences you wouldn't necessarily be accessing through the men so that's actually great because you're growing your your reach uh and you're having to have very different conversations and conversations in probably a deeper way than you can through the men's sport i can uh i don't want to be like too stereotypical and generalistic but you know when we're engaging with men via sport, we engage in quite a simple, short, sharp way.

36:26But with the women's sport, there's almost more ability to go into a bit more depth. So you can bring your brand to life more in a different way. Both properties are brilliant for long-term brand building. And that's what people should look at them for. They shouldn't be looking at them as a short, sharp sales burst because they're such a saturated landscape. The women's is becoming more saturated. There's nowhere near the men's. But because of that saturation, you've got to look at it as what is the long-term investment opportunity with this property i need to be there for you know three four or five years i can't just be one there one year and get any a huge amount of benefit back it's really about that long-term brand building and versus as i say short sharp sales there are other ways to get those short sharp sales but it's not probably through the likes of these sports properties um so that's really how i'd look at it don't look at them the same way because they are fundamentally different the broadcast is different the audience is different that you know even the the channel selection is different it just needs to be thought of very differently but there is a lot of value for you there but it's uh and i think the other thing um is women put women and the audiences watching women's football put a lot of trust in the brands that they think are showing up really well through um through football um thank you so much for your time uh emily global brand director at rexona thank you very much i appreciate it take care