The business of soccer in North America: a market primed for more

0:03Hello and welcome to the Leaders Sport Business Podcast, the podcast about leaders in sport from leaders in sport. My name is David Cushon. I'm the content director round here at Leaders Global Headquarters here in London or the outskirts of. And alongside me in an unusual change of role at the start of the podcast is the editorial director at Leaders, James Emmett. And let's get this out of the way right at the start, James. The reason I'm doing the intro and you're not is for this reason. Hello, David. I mean, I don't think it's that obvious, but I'm carefully cotton-wooling my voice at the moment because I have laryngitis.

0:48You're sounding terrific and a lot better than, I would say, 48 hours ago. Oh, yeah, big time. Yeah. Well, good to have you on, James. And we've had a slight period of radio silence. Complete silence on my end. For several reasons over the past week or so. But we're back with a bang today because, James, you have come back, albeit with a little voice, from the United States of America where you have been, let me look at my notes, on the West Coast. That's right, David. And oh my goodness, what a marathon. I mean, first of all, flight got cancelled. Second of all… You were a victim of the Heathrow…

1:26The Heathrow substation… Substation incident. In Brolio. Yes. So I was actually stuck in the US for a further four days than initially planned. So flight cancelled, then, you know, obviously voice and health cancelled directly after that. And still, as you can hear, on the road to recovery. But looking forward to reflecting on a few very useful days spent on the west coast of America. Yes, you were there for the inaugural edition of the Business of Soccer, our new all-star event focused on the business of soccer slash football in North America and indeed beyond, which we put on alongside our comrades at Sports Business Journal and also in partnership with two of the heavyweight organisations in that part of the world when it comes to football, Major League Soccer and CONCACAF.

2:24So this was in LA. You were at various locations, James, around the city enjoying some of the great sporting action. But it certainly looked as if it was a terrific couple of days in the presence of a lot of football industry luminaries. Yeah, that's right. So 150, it was actually about 180 people gathered in a hotel in Marina del Rey, right by the airport, conveniently located right by LAX, David, to come along and discuss the current state of play of soccer, football in North America. one year or just over one year out from the World Cup, the biggest ever World Cup there will have been, FIFA Men's World Cup in 2026, which of course is taking place across predominantly the US, but also Canada and Mexico.

3:2248 teams, hundreds of games. 48 teams, countless games. It's essentially another round of fixtures. So it's a round of 32. It is not only the biggest tournament that there will have been in FIFA World Cup terms, in terms of number of games, but also I think it's just about the biggest tournament in terms of geographical spread. Russia might be running it close, but certainly in terms of the number of air miles that are going to get racked up, it is without a shadow of a doubt the biggest. And it's 30 years, well, it will be 32 years on from the last time North America and the USA hosted the World Cup in 1994.

4:07Which was a great World Cup. It was a great World Cup, David. We probably think that because it's probably the first World Cup that sort of lives large in our memories. But who knows whether it was objectively a great World Cup. But anyway, it was transformative in the region. It pretty much spawned Major League Soccer, which is 30 years old this year. and Major League Soccer is now one of the football leagues with the highest value team brands, team franchises in all of football, even though, as Bennett Rosenthal, one of the owners of LAFC, pointed out at the event, it's the ninth best in terms of quality of football.

4:54Okay. It's pretty stark. Yeah. So quality needs to come up because value is, or it needs to come up to match the value. That was the general gist of the conversation. But anyway, Major League Soccer and CONCACAF are our partners for this event. They are the primary kind of power brokers for soccer in that part of the world. And yeah, it was great. We had all the sort of biggest executive names come together for discussion, socializing, good times, all around how this territory can capture the momentum that the World Cup next year is going to bring and discuss a few of the other talking points around soccer in the region at the moment.

5:41And there are a few, obviously, over here in the UK and Europe, we are focused on the World Cup, but there's lots of stuff going on there. I don't know if you know, they've got a controversial new president who likes to put sport front and centre. And actually, I would recommend for you and our listeners, Dave, a podcast that was produced largely from the event Business of Soccer out in L.A. by The Athletic. So Adam Leventhal was there and he put together a really great piece on Trump and the politics of football. Yeah, focused on basically how Trump is currently dealing with his closest neighbours and historical allies in Mexico and Canada.

6:25and those teams, those football teams, Mexico and Canada, came together with the US and Panama for the CONCACAF Nations Cup, which took place, this event coincided with that basically. So we took all the guests over to SoFi Stadium to go and watch the semifinals of this competition. Mexico playing Canada, Panama playing the US, the US were pathetic. yeah they were completely destroyed by panama basically and they've got a long way to go um if they're going to be a nation with a chance of success next year anyway this podcast by adam leventhal on um i think it's the athletic fc is the platform that's something that's really good are there issues tell me women's football um so the it's the same discussion that we're having over here in Europe obviously how to continue the momentum turn the momentum and the interest and the positivity into dollars there is I would say a bit more success in I mean of course it's America a bit more success in how they're doing that over in the US as maybe we are doing over here in Europe the NWSL the National Women's Soccer League is home to the richest most valuable women's sports franchise anywhere in the world in um angel city and now owned by bob eiger and willow bay um also a sort of under the radar issue um for us over here but one that is absolutely central to the future of soccer in the united states certainly is an issue that is currently being discussed across major league soccer ownership levels and that is calendar realignment so calendar realignment in order for the league to fall more in line with how it mainly works across europe so essentially a northern hemisphere summer break and there are lots of positive sort of pros for this decision mainly that they would be in line with the same transfer windows which would make it easier for them to sell players generate more revenues reinvest those revenues etc but also critically loan players a lot of players do want to go to the US it's a good lifestyle it's not really possible for a lot of clubs to a lot of European clubs to loan players to the US because of the way that their calendar works so it could be a really momentous thing if they do this lots of obstacles challenges to overcome in order to get there, namely unraveling a lot of contracts, which don't run up to kind of June every year, player contracts and commercial contracts.

9:19Also, cold market teams, Chicago, Minnesota, will not enjoy this proposed change. Yeah, I was going to say, is that more about realigning US domestic football calendars with what currently exists in Europe? Or is there an element of them trying to bring a little bit of europe towards them somehow i think the prime motivation is to fall in line with the majority of the football world to have to start competing on a level playing field when it comes to play play a movement predominantly yeah i think that is the the primary reason there's a lot of support for it um but there are a few very vocal holdouts amongst the ownership and executive levels within the teams, the 13 Major League Soccer teams.

10:09Don Garber and Victor Montaliani, the commissioner of MLS, Victor Montaliani, the president of CONCACAF, really great in a kind of no-holds-barred session at the business of soccer. Don Garber, when he wants to be, is really open and transparent about pretty much anything that you throw at him. but he had a really nice line about what the primary kind of skill and challenge and headache for any commissioner is and it was sort of he wrapped it up in a in a recollection of a piece of advice that Paul Talibu the former head of the NFL gave him gave Garber when Garber left the NFL for this commissioner role at Major League Soccer.

10:56And Talibu's advice was, you've just got to spend your time making sure that the owners who hate you don't sit next to the owners who are undecided. It is all about seating plans at the end of the day, isn't it? It's all about seating plans and, you know, what you whisper to who. Yeah. Yeah. There's also a lot, and I imagine this was a bit of a topic of conversation as well happening in terms of international football looking into the US. And obviously, we've seen a couple of things, well, a few trends over recent years. Obviously, we've seen lots of European teams opening commercial offices in the US.

11:37We have relevant US organization just winning the much prized UEFA business that is going to, I think everybody seems to suggest, give the commercial program around UEFA's top club competitions a bit more of a US focus or at least a US lens over the coming years. There's obviously a lot of conversation at the moment and the new World Sevens football concept in women's football designed to, albeit in a strange seven-a-side format, bring together the world's top clubs to play each other or the world's top club brands to play against each other. So suddenly we do have the potential for a WSL team to be playing regularly against an Angel City or one of the other NWSL teams.

12:29So there's a lot of that happening as well. There's many layers to this conversation, which is, of course, why we are excited to be doing this event over the next few years to see how that conversation evolves. Yeah. And at that point was absolutely addressed head on by a number of the people who spoke across the two days in LA, not least a number of CONCACAF representatives. And we'll have a clip from Philippe Moggio, the General Secretary of CONCACAF, coming up a little later. But this idea that there is more and more soccer in North America, there are more and more soccer entities trying to establish themselves in the US, particularly, and to commercialise the US, that is viewed as, we are at a point where people are describing it as oversaturation at the moment.

13:20And Victor Montagliani especially didn't mince his words when he said, yes, this market, our market as CONCACAF is oversaturated. And you as an outside football entity trying to come in to North America to commercialise it cannot just assume that you are going to sell out these massive stadiums for huge American style ticket prices because he says increasingly there's a recognition that these are just Instagram games and Montagliani said if you want to watch a real game in the US you go to Major League Soccer. And this is the we are seeing it on a near daily basis on and we've talked about this before on the podcast Gianni Infantino's Instagram account where he's on this one-man mission to sell the Club World Cup and seems to be coming sort of increasingly frantic in his efforts to do so at any opportunity wherever he is in the world, recording video clips, urging people to, you know, be buying tickets, to be getting involved in the competition, which is actually not that long away now, if we think about it.

14:27And going back to the point about Donald Trump, the president and his relationship with all the major sports leagues and his impact on the World Cup and the LA Olympics, which are going to fall under his current term. We have seen this site over recent weeks of the Club World Cup trophy, which has been left in the Oval Office by Infantino and is sort of sitting there as Trump is signing executive orders, is having sort of huddle time with the press. Anytime the cameras are on, whatever the issue, whatever these major global issues he is talking about and opining on, the trophy's in the corner.

15:09So there's a level of influence here. And you can understand why FIFA and specifically Gianni Infantino are doing it to curry favour. They want Trump's backing. Trump can make it very difficult for both these tournaments to work properly if he was minded to. So good to have him on side. There's obviously some potential negativity that could spiral out of being so close to such a contentious president at the same time. And the Club World Cup, I do think, you know, I wouldn't want to predict which way it goes in terms of attendances, in terms of interests, in terms of the way it lands in the United States, but also lands as a product around the world.

15:53And I suspect where you are in the world, it will differ very greatly. But one scenario is they could just be seen as Instagram games. Certainly, yeah. And actually, it's not just sort of fans and club stakeholders that are, let's be diplomatic, uncertain about this new tournament, the Club World Cup. I believe the tournament dates also fall in the window of like quite key CONCACAF competitions as well. So it's FIFA going into one of the confederations territories and essentially launching a competing proposition. So let's see. That will be an interesting one. David, I make a recommendation for the flow of the rest of this podcast.

16:41Please do. Shall I introduce a little package of interviews that I was able in brighter days for my voice to record out in L.A.? And then maybe we come back and I'll give you a few gobbets of observation from out and about. Let's do it. Who are we going to hear from? Okay, so we've got three quick interviews. As mentioned, the first is with Philippe Mojo. He's the General Secretary of CONCACAF. And he is also, David, a former Davis Cup tennis player with Colombia. And he's going to be talking about saturation in the market, his hopes for the World Cup next year, a little bit about the event, the business soccer event itself.

17:21And then we're going to hear from Cathy Carter. She's the former president of Soccer United Marketing, which is the commercial arm of Major League Soccer, and also the former CEO of LA28. So she's had super senior roles in soccer and in the Olympic world out in the US. She left the LA28 role about a year ago, but she was roaming the corridors out in LA. And I managed to grab a word with her on the day that Kirsty Coventry was elected as the first female president of the IOC. So it was great to get Cathy's view on soccer and the Olympics. And then finally, who showed up in the queue for some food?

18:00But Mark Bullingham, the chief executive of the FA, a fellow Brit with me out there in LA. So, of course, did you let him go in front of you in the queue? We were both saying after you, after you, after you. Because technically staff should wait. Yeah, no, you got me there. Of course, he went before me. And anyway, we grabbed a quick word with him. obviously England not yet qualified for the World Cup next year but planning continues I think they'll get there I think they'll get there but the the key thing as Mark will explain is whether they're going to qualify in a top seed spot a top seed spot basically guarantees a much shorter sort of stress period in terms of travel and all of that sort of thing anyway um mark burlingham is the final in this package of three interviews that we're about to hear but first let's hear from philip mojo philip mojo um secretary general did you go general secretary or secretary general technically it's general secretary okay fifa goes by general secretary for us yeah secretary general for the fifa right so you don't mind okay all right general secretary of ConquerCaf.

19:15Thank you very much for being with us. And thank you very much for putting this on with us, the Business of Soccer event here in LA for the first time. We've just literally wrapped up. We've had Victor Montaliani and Don Garber up on stage bringing this event to a close. How have you found it, Philippe? James, it's been a fantastic experience. First, ideating with you guys about what this could be. teaming up with MLS, Soccer United Marketing, on what this could represent. Given all the momentum that there is behind our sport here in North America, incredibly timely. The fact that we're doing this in LA during the FIFA window where our Nation League finals are happening, where three of our hosting nations are playing, playing in SoFi Stadium, it really all starts to come together pretty cleanly.

20:18And I think we've seen the attendance. It's been great. The demand to be here. This has been invitation only. And I think your phones have rung off the hook. It has for us. the level of the discussions the panelists uh it's been it's been a great experience yeah a few of the talking points that i've been able to pick out um and there have been many um to sort of zone in on uh yes there is momentum behind soccer behind football in this region but in what areas precisely so i have noted um huge momentum and positivity around women's football in this region. I've noted interesting discussion around Major League Soccer's level of maturity right now and specifically whether they are going to realign their calendar to go a little bit more European.

21:17And then, of course, we've got preparations for the largest World Cup there will ever have been, both in terms of geography and in terms of number of teams. Do you agree with that assessment? Can you pick out any more talking points? Look, obviously, the major talking point is the World Cup and the momentum that it's building here in North America across women's, across men's. And a little bit, I think, is, I'm going to not harp on a negative comment, but I think one that's an opportunity for us, which is the saturation. There's so much going on, right? And that's actually the reason why we're here, because that is an opportunity for us.

22:03We've been, over the past eight years, really working in our competitions, reformatting our competitions. And we've done so much to really put together the right sets of competitions across the men's national teams, across the women's national teams, and across our club competitions. and now we have the opportunity to really start to have our fans and the broader world understand what those competitions mean we talked a little bit about in the club side the pyramid structure and the role that our champions cup plays within that the importance that that represents for our leagues in our region and what the club world cup represents at the top of that pyramid and on the national team side is about the consistency of the competitions that we're offering our members and that's serving as the best way for them to prepare for the world cup and capitalize on this momentum that is building and for those that will qualify obviously outside of the ones that are hosting it's going to be an absolute game changer yeah um victor earlier on stage, Victor Montaliani spelled out his own ambitions for the World Cup next year.

23:21I don't know whether these are personal ambitions or whether these are CONCACAF ambitions. Oh no, we've talked about them a lot. So six CONCACAF nations qualifying. Correct. We have six direct slots. And then four to make it out of the group stage and one to get to the semifinals. That's his goal. You forgot one other important element. So we have two half slots. One as a confederation and one at the hosting confederation and those two teams which will come out of the 12 that will play the groups the the groups in the fall of this year um essentially is the the second best scoring teams in in their groups yeah that will play in the play-in matches in march it's important that those two qualify and make it to the 48 team world cup yeah okay victor wasn't prepared to put a name on the countries, but are you prepared to say which one's going to get to the semifinals?

24:16Oh, absolutely. I'm not going to take that date. No way. It's been a really nice experience this last couple of days here in LA as well. It's always nice when you go to an event. It's nice if it's in a nice place, obviously. The sun's been shining. There was a VIP dinner and a beautiful restaurant in Beverly Hills last night. So much of sports administration or football administration, particularly is about travel right and i wonder for you philippe as a former professional tennis player davis cup uh playing tennis player like do you do you get to have downtime and stuff like this do you get have you played much tennis at football administration events no no tennis no downtime right especially now when uh we've just put on so much right if you think about just the last two weeks.

25:08We just hosted our Congress in San Lucia. All our... Again, not a bad place. Not a bad place to be. Yeah. But for a Congress, it's a very different story. Of course. Beautiful place to go in tourism. Hosting a Congress, different story. We're then coming here, hosting this event, Nations League. We have our Champions Cup going on. We have our inaugural finals for the W Champions Cup. goal cup in the back of that, and then welcome qualifying on the men's side and women's in the fall. It's just absolutely nonstop. And we haven't talked about the youth competitions that we host and certainly all the development and governance work that we do in parallel.

25:52So it's absolutely nonstop. And it's fascinating. Yeah, yes, indeed. Philippe Moggio, thank you very much indeed. Thank you, James. Kathy Carter, former chief executive of LA28 until very recently. Also, the former leader of Soccer United Marketing, right? Were you president of Soccer United Marketing? That was your title. You're here at the Business of Soccer event, as we all are. How would you assess the vibe? Oh, it's been fantastic. We're at the precipice of some major, major events coming to the United States. Soccer will be obviously talked about at every water cooler. And so we figured, I think that the team figured, let's start the water cooler now.

26:33Yeah. This is a sort of a trip down memory lane for you in a couple of ways, I guess. So having left the LA28 organization a few months ago, a year ago. About a year ago. About a year ago. Moved back to the East Coast. You're back in LA. Yeah, yeah. You're also back in a soccer environment, having left Soccer United Marketing in 2018, 2019. Yeah. Are you feeling nostalgic? Are you feeling like, you know, these were the conversations that were being had when you were there? You know, I mean, the game has evolved so dramatically and it continues. I mean, it's like so first of all, it's super fun to be here.

27:09It's like a walk down memory lane. It's like old home week, however you want to describe it. But it's just really remarkable. And, you know, credit goes to the group that continues just to press forward. But the maturation of not just the game on the field, but the maturation of the business off the field. it's just it's really quite remarkable and you see it taking just so many leaps and and so many really positive moves that'll continue to to embed the sport and the culture of not just the united states but but but uh but but across the world in the case of women's football yeah um and i just think it's a really really fun time to to to be in interested in around the game of football three big sort of talking points as far as i've managed to pick them out and i'd be interested in your view on these as a sort of commercial leader as a partnerships expert in sport and those three areas are let's say if I can remember them the development of women's sport and women's soccer in particular and the kind of amazing momentum that is behind that currently obviously the world cup coming up next year in North America and US Canada and Mexico and then the third one and I've picked up on on a few sessions and it's certainly what people are talking about in the corridors here is the discussions that major league soccer are currently having uh about potentially changing the calendar to align with a european style um calendar in your view those three areas like what's the sort of commercial thinking about what well if you're going to be talking partners yeah for each of those things well first of all it's um it's go time as it relates to planning for 2026 right so um and people really getting involved in um how they want to take advantage of the spotlight on the market.

28:55And I'm kind of going in bits and bobs of the order. In the case of women's sport, we heard yesterday that there's more demand than there is supply, certainly from a media perspective. And by that, I mean advertising revenue. So I think, which by the way, is consistent sort of with where we used to be in the sport of soccer as well, in general, men's game, is that, you know, we worked so hard to make sure that there was more demand than there was supply. But I think everybody still were in a world where we're figuring out how to continue to sell stories around the game and how to do that across platform.

29:34So I think that will actually help as you think about commercial partners that are getting involved in the women's game. How do they look at it more holistically? And maybe what was traditional in previous iterations of not just the women's game, but more importantly in sport, may be different. And I think we heard a little bit about that as well. So I think there's no question. And we see that as well with the W and what's happening in women's basketball. It's just a really golden age. But this has been happening. This has been work that's been happening in the United States for 50 years. And so it's not, we always say that these things are moments where people are like, we've got lightning in a bottle and we forget that it's actually been decades and decades of a journey.

30:14So it's exciting. And I think that, that, uh, continue to focus on the women's game and, um, and then, uh, and then the schedule flip, um, if it happens, I mean, it's complicated. It's very, very complicated. That said, um, I think somebody mentioned to do bold things. Um, we're at that point, you know, we're at the point where we do need to do some bold things. And it's very easy to see all the positives. But I think that it seems that the education of the conversation is very significant. And therefore, they're being very, very thoughtful about how to make the decision and ultimately make sure that they don't leave anybody behind.

31:00Yes. It's not as simple as simply changing the dates. And away we go. lots of mainly contracts uh to work through to understand how that's precisely going to work but someone did tell me and i won't name them um that they think it's going to happen uh because and this is someone who has a long history uh in u.s soccer they think it's going to happen because major league soccer unlike european soccer entities has this uh quality of like embracing change jumping into something and even sometimes jumping into something and then figuring it out afterwards yeah um yes which is a positive and a negative i guess yeah i mean look i think that the general tenor is there's a lot of enthusiasm for the flip yeah um and i think you do get to a point where you just have to make the decision yeah but but um but i think they're doing really like way more significant work than we probably used to do back in the day when we were making decisions about the league.

32:00And so that's actually a sign of maturation as well. You're a free agent at the moment, having left LA 28 last year. When you look around the room here and the positivity and the momentum behind soccer in North America, we've got all the big power brokers here. You know, Victor Montaliani, Don Garber is here. We've had owners of several MLS, NWSL teams. We've got the FIFA general secretary on stage right now. And I'm sorry for taking you from that session when you look across this sort of ecosystem of north american soccer global soccer who's got the most fun job do you think if you were if you were going to be parachuted in to a uh to a soccer role right now what's the most fun you know to be the 12 year old player again to be honest if you were a 12 year old player yeah with your career ahead of you with nothing but the bricks ahead of you, the golden path, if you will, the game has never been more exciting and there's just never been the opportunity.

33:03So what we're putting in place for kids, whether that's on the field or in the boardroom, I don't think we could have dreamt of the size and scale of what the opportunity is for the kids today. And finally, just with your Olympic hat, sort of back on for a second. Kirstie Coventry elected the first woman president of the IOC just yesterday. Today. Today. Today. First African president of the IOC as well. Your thoughts on that? Listen, she swam collegiately in the United States. She is a very astute power broker, if you will, within the Olympic landscape. You know, and I think that she really impressed a lot of people with her ability to connect and with her vision for what the future should look like.

33:53I think she'll do a great job. I think it's really exciting. And I think it's about time when you consider the, you know, parody that the Olympics has really brilliantly been able to achieve on the competition and to watch as they've really worked hard to make sure the IOC members are much more reflective of the participation in the competition. I think it's amazing. And I think she'll do an amazing job. Yeah. Kathy Carso, thank you very much. Awesome. Mr Mark Bullingham, Chief Executive of the FA Thanks for being out here in sunny California This is a change of scene, isn't it? It's a pleasure to be here, James Yes, we're here for the Business of Soccer event that we're hosting with CONCACAF and Major League Soccer Really positive vibe about the place I feel like the sort of football ecosystem is here Everyone's getting excited about another kind of catalyst for growth in this region What are you sort of feeling with the conversations around the corridors here?

34:50Yeah, I think it is that really positive vibe. I think everyone's excited about the World Cup next summer. Obviously, we're doing a lot of planning for that already. But I think the conversations you're seeing now are even very different from a few years ago. Just the growth of the game has been fantastic. And yeah, I think the focus on the tournament next summer is massive. And in terms of your trip out here, obviously, you're here catching up with a few folks. are you doing any sort of secret squirrel stuff looking at potential bases once you're out here I couldn't possibly comment on that James but yeah no we are doing quite a lot of planning for next summer as you can imagine and it's quite interesting because with the size and scale of the tournament we won't necessarily apply the same model that we would have applied three of the tournaments you look at different venues you've got huge distances climate changes altitude changes and so on so it's quite a lot to get your head around but exciting as well yeah where are we in the sort of qualification process so we've got our first qualifier tomorrow right we're playing albania so we don't know at all whether we're qualified in any way we do not know we don't take anything for granted um but we already have to plan yeah and the draw would then be in december okay um and what's the thinking because it will be a totally different tournament as you mentioned not just the sort of size and scale the fact it's taken place over three different countries the sheer geographical distance between places here in in north america number of teams is different this is going to be a how many teams it's a bigger world cup it's a bigger world cup so you've got 48 teams not only this extra teams it means you get an extra round to the group stages then you have a round of 32 before you have the round of 16 quarterfinals semifinals right so it's a longer tournament yeah and i think a lot of teams will come over and play a couple of friendlies before and then if you add all that together you could be looking at as many as 10 games crikey so long tournament big distances but you know again everyone's really excited about it yeah is there any indication at this point obviously you haven't gone through the qualification process but i guess you've got no idea where you might be based you know where potential england games might be so the the big factor for us would be if we were to be a top seed you know obviously we need to qualify first but if we could qualify us from the top seeds yeah then that means we would not be in canada or mexico because as host countries they're already in a top seed group yeah um so the options if you're a top seed is slightly less than otherwise but there's still a huge amount of variety of possible options and locations yeah um what about um this territory as a sort of um an area of commercial potential lots of people here um talking about um partners partnerships there's been a lot of talk on stage about the um the world cup is kind of a showcase for big corporations here in in the u.s to see what the kind of top value soccer thing is um in terms of your planning like will you be able to to view this upcoming tournament as kind of an opportunity for commercial growth yeah i think probably along with a lot of other yeah for the last few years we've viewed the us as a big important growth market yeah and you've seen the rise in broadcast fees here and obviously we're a beneficiary of that in terms of the fa cup as well so it's a really important market in terms of fan growth in terms of commercial growth but of course in terms of events as well um and finally um during this trip there's a there was a bit of a vip dinner in beverly hills last night spargo's i understand there's a celebrity chef there but uh i wouldn't know him um how was it who did you sit next to it was a very nice dinner and we rotated around quite a lot okay musical chairs very interesting table it was hosted by victor montagliani who's obviously uh someone we know well and and he hosted the dinner brilliantly yeah okay all right And did you have the steak or the chicken?

38:42I had the chicken. Oh, okay. And it was good? Very nice. It was a very nice dinner, I think. Great. Mark Bullingham, thank you very much indeed. Thank you, James. Right, that was Mark Bullingham, the chief executive of the FA. He and Philippe Mojo, the general secretary of CONCACAF, they're sandwiching a conversation that I had with Cathy Carter, the former CEO of LA28 and president of Soccer United Marketing out in LA. a few days ago for the Business of Soccer event. David, a few bits and pieces at the end of the podcast that I wanted to talk to you about. Observe. I've been to America and I've had some observations.