The Cannes Debate: how did PSG crack the cultural crossover code?

0:04James Emmett:Hello and welcome to The Can Debate, a three-part series from us at Leaders on sport's new place in the media and marketing ecosystem. My name's James Emmett. I'm the Editorial Director at Leaders. And my name's Alex Charkham. I head up strategy and consulting at Fuse. Together over the course of this series, Alex and I will be asking why and how sport has taken a central position in brand marketing and communications. What are the evolving trends that should see sport dominate the marketing agenda? And what's the point of Cannes for the sports industry? Alex. Hello. Hello. We're back in the studio.

0:43James Emmett:It's not quite as sweaty here. I look back at one of the clips that we put out from the second episode in this series from Cannes, and I have never seen myself looking so sweaty. I thought you looked glorious. Well, thank you. It doesn't help sort of sitting next to two people who have slightly less hair than me. It really sort of tells in the hair. Anyway, we're back in the leader's studio for the third and final episode of this series on sports place in the media marketing ecosystem. I'm delighted to say that we're joined on the line by Richard Heaselgrave, the Chief Revenue Officer at Paris Saint-Germain.

1:18James Emmett:Richard, how are you doing? Very good, thanks, guys. Sorry to miss the sweaty bits. Yeah, I'd love to be there with you, but yeah, busy times in Paris at the minute. That's okay. Thanks for joining us from Paris. Richard, give us a sense of the off-season at PSG, but I suppose there's never really an off-season in football. What's sort of top of mind for you right now? What's on your plate? I think that the off-season concept probably isn't necessarily that relevant anymore. More and more, I'm sure lots of people come on the show and talk about football and how it's changing, but essentially it's 12 months a year, clearly.

1:56how we try and get out of just being the stadium sport and talking to people around world world cup obviously is a busy time i've just come back from there we've got lots of players there but more importantly how does a club show up at a national team competition that's been keeping us busy for the last few weeks kind of a little bit arrogantly i guess we feel we can so yeah big football moments big football brands yeah that keeps us busy yeah right as you know

2:24James Emmett:richard uh alex and i were in uh can last week alex's debut in can sorry not to have seen you there just want to take a moment to get a few kind of reflections on can but first of all richard you have been to can in the past haven't you to the fest to the festival yeah you've obviously been to the town previous life for the australian open we did uh actually it was quite cool it was we tried some stuff and we filmed a particular advert with uber eats this was 19 i think it was yeah and And we recreated the tennis court with umpires and everybody and filmed it the night before the Grand Slam started with Rafa and Kyrgios and various people and completely made the broadcast, the ad look as if it was a live broadcast.

3:09It was really good fun to do. And, um, slipped in an Uber Eats advert where the players basically stopped and got an Uber Eats delivery, which back then, it's a long time ago, it was quite cutting edge. Yeah. So we won an award and came over for that.

3:25James Emmett:Oh, very good. Just slip it in there that it won. I know that you were scheduled to go to Cannes this year, Richard, but you couldn't make it. But I presume that you had a look at it. You must have had a reason for wanting to go. Are you in the same sort of boat as Alex and I, sort of seeing Cannes now suddenly as this absolute nexus for the sports industry and a place where sport has become so much more central on programs, on the delegate list. It really is front and center now. Yeah, I kind of think it always was, but probably on individual campaigns, right? Whereas now it feels a bit more structural.

4:03They've separated into a vertical on sports. But I think there's always been ads and creative and campaigns that sort of permeated the marketing world. But yeah, I notice it, particularly living in France now, that this is an invasion from America, from what I see. And from PSG's perspective, next year we'll probably be quite active. Not only hopefully with some campaigns that are being judged, but also being very on the ground. I think being a French club, it's okay us being there and being active, because the world's marketers are there, I think it's fair to say.

4:41James Emmett:I definitely noticed a lot of, I don't know about you, Alex, but doing the sort of 48 laps of the Quasette that you do every day. 35 ,000 steps I did one day. In the local population, I mean, this is not going to come as a surprise to you, Richard, but a heck of a lot of PSG shirts down on the Riviera. Oh, that's good to hear. On the Riviera. Not all of them official, I might add. All sorts of different sorts of PSG shirts, but certainly the, by some distance, the most popular club down there. Alex, your debut, how did you find it? And what have you brought back with it? Life is now a bit more mundane, isn't it?

5:18We sort of return to the normal, albeit the weather is just as warm. I think there are a few things. There was kind of what's going on in the day-to-day, the stuff that you didn't see. And I think it would be remiss of us not to talk a little bit about the work because, of course, we have our own category and our own awards programme and there's some brilliant things that have come out of that. I think what I was really pleased to see was the number of publishers, the number of networks, the number of entities truly embracing it as a moment to dial up presence in Cannes. I think as Richard said, you've got the great and the good of the world are there.

5:51So it's important to stake your claim in the world of marketing, but also go a little bit deeper to showcase your philosophy, your approaches, and also I think what you can bring to brands who are constantly navigating diverse range of challenges in their quest to drive growth. And I think we can do more as a sports industry. I think showcasing our wares on the beach, on the closet, a little bit more of a sophisticated way, I think, is an important next step. We might see PSG do that next season. We might see others embrace that. But certainly, I think I bumped into loads of people from the sports industry.

6:26I think there's still a little bit of spying, a little bit of figuring out what this thing is and how we can show up. But I wouldn't be surprised to see a first mover next year in terms of establishing a bit more of a formal presence.

6:37James Emmett:Yeah, something that I noticed more of this year than previous years where I've been is this trend for specifically focusing on sports, sports entities, sports entities, rights holder organizations or agencies partnering with established partners of those to create small curated kind of B2B things. things you saw liverpool partnering with google who is a sponsor of theirs to take a little bit of space on the google beach to do a little private drinks event you saw formula one teaming up with caa for a week-long activation in a cafe and various bits and pieces like that lots of yachts being taken over yes formula one teams on yachts for sure yeah did any of the actual work strike you yeah i think we've got to talk about that because i think all the themes are coming out based on last year and this year you know what what's the role of ai what's the role of creators but actually some of the work that was heroed and awarded featured that but more as a means to an end rather than an end itself yeah i think just to dwell on a couple of the the campaigns that that struck gold or um or won the grand prix i think one of my favorites was the the lucky fan index which was this brilliant story of a polish team visla krakow that that got relegated And unfortunately, the Polish crowd sort of threatened to boycott, I think, the club in protest.

7:59So they needed to devise a way to get bombs back on seats just to reinvigorate the entire proposition. And they tapped into this insight that isn't necessarily unusual in football, but perhaps more pronounced in Poland, that fans are superstitious. And they want to believe that their presence brings some kind of fortune or has some kind of impact. so what they did is they mapped all the historical attendance data which matches people went to with the actual outcomes in those particular matches 200 different outcomes and in doing so they produced this thing called the lucky fan index which effectively is able to tell everybody which fans bring the most fortune right in the fans desire to think that they're having a material impact on the game so they released this index um and the top fans you know obviously were were awarded with a brilliant raft of rights and benefits loads of earned media and something that can kind of last into the in into the ages really the stadiums are refilled and it was this lovely synergy between the club and the fans built on this tremendously relevant insight and i think that kind of value exchange that kind of community-led initiative repeated itself actually amongst a few of the other a few of the other winners as well i think i'd encourage everybody to go and watch the thousand sponsors of of moony which is a brilliant tale of a similar sort of tale of relegation coming out of a peruvian football club they lost their main sponsors they went hand and cap to a lot of local businesses to contribute they all got a place on the shirts hence the thousand sponsors of moony yeah um and uh were able to you know bring some of those benefits into their own local businesses as well to to build their profiles in the community so Like all of these themes kind of coming out in the lucky fan index technology played a part, but it wasn't the hero.

9:44The actual index and the insight was the hero. And in the thousand sponsors of Mooney case, it was about the community. It was about connection. And it was about using sponsorship as a means to an end to kind of galvanize the club. And that's what I really liked about the campaigns this year. It kind of went back to its roots a little bit about what we can do as an industry and how we can, I suppose, contrast a little bit with what traditional advertising does.

10:07James Emmett:Yeah, I love that Polish example. It's sort of almost building ritual into a sort of fan's experience. Like you could probably take it a step further and sort of say, right, in all the winning scenarios, we broke down where you sat. You had one beer at halftime and you bought it from here. Yeah, you can cut that days in a million ways and the story can kind of go on and on and on. So it's got nice longevity to it. Yeah, definitely. did you like the colombian beer one aguilar yes yeah yeah yeah look from a football club perspective the cost of shirts is a big one isn't it but i love that i never thought no i mean this is the joy of can i i think one if you're there it's super but afterwards going in and looking and you know if you give it an hour you come away inspired don't you because you see all these ideas you go blimey there's some creative people out there what can we do you know for context that that Aguila is a Colombian beer and Colombia, I think, is their first World Cup for eight years for two tournament cycles.

11:09And the cost of shirts, as we know, has gone up significantly.

11:13James Emmett:And I think even more so if you're Colombian. So Aguila, the beer sponsor, I think you've got the kit partnership, the training kit partnership, said, right, we're going to discount the cost of shirts. But the trade-off with that is our logo is going to appear on the shirt, on the actual playing shirt. So the greater the discount, the more prominent the Aguila logo. go i think they're three different tiers you can buy it so you almost got like for a tenner you can get a colombian shirt but the logo is almost this exaggerated front of shirt sort of sponsorship so if you pay a bit more it's just kind of on the hips so the cheaper you get it the bigger the brand the bigger brand that you're genius it's genius and it went it went but they used it for their point of sale they used it to encourage um i think build their sort of digital presence and digital sales as well but i was sort of thinking and rich you probably got a view on this actually like all of these sort of examples would you get away with that in europe with the governance and rules around shirts and all the rest governance a killer of creativity you know i kind of think we should i suspect look we have rules on champions league don't we that we obviously have to adhere to but at the same time most of these things are just because a club like the the peruvian example or the colombian example through need right yeah and then and that's i guess it's the mother of invention isn't it and that's why i think can is so cool because if we swan around with hanging out with real madrid and liverpool and psg and we're all talking the same language doing the same thing where's the fresh input yeah so i i think it's a tonic i really do yeah and i i think as an industry i'm sure we'll talk about it now but We just have to push a bit harder, don't we, on creativity and thinking about things a bit differently.

12:56James Emmett:A couple of themes that stood out for me from Cannes that I know Richard will certainly have a view on. So number one, the obsession with creators. You could not move for creators and people actually holding phones, filming themselves. And conversation around creators built into every kind of panel discussion. The idea of creators as broadcasters, creators as brands, creators as publishers. And it's been, again, sport has definitely got a place in this conversation. And yeah, I wonder how many top tier advanced rights holders now don't have a creator strategy. I think you need to have a creator strategy.

13:38James Emmett:So that's one. And then the second one was this idea of cultural resonance. how you as a brand how you as a sports brand can reach into other audiences non-core audiences by showing up meaningfully in different areas of the culture making an impact outside of your kind of core and that's something that we have talked about behind richard's back previously on this series with how psg do that themselves but richard i wanted to come to you on the creator thing do you guys at psg have a creator strategy yeah i mean i think it would be crazy not to back in the day of live broadcast being everything then you could avoid it maybe but look it's just a basic tenet of reaching audiences i think the same question applies though now it's a norm how do you stand out and how do you do it in a way that people go oh look at that that's creative that's different um it's just a channel so best think about it in a way that's perhaps not what everyone else is doing yeah weirdly richard alex and i had we were having a chat just before we got into the studio and that is pretty much word for word what alex said well yeah well yes i think so i think you've got the you know the i show speed fifa thing is uh it feels like is using him as a bit of a challenge to get to new audiences but i think you do have the other side of the creator scale which is a bit more i suppose collaborative and creative It's how are they augmenting that experience versus simply being a channel to push it out, whether that's through shoulder content, whether that's through anything related in that area.

15:14So there's the channel bit and there's the sort of what are we doing in the downtime to enhance the experience through some interesting, engaging analysts, analytical or some sort of creative output. I think what we're starting to see a bit as well from the sponsorship sides and what I think is going to be a really interesting development is rights holders traditionally offering talent as part on access to talent as part of sponsor relationships where i think we're going to see a bit of a shift is and richard you might be honest as well is should we be thinking about bringing creators who aren't necessarily football players into that commercial mix now and offering those to our sponsors in conjunction with access to talent which we know is still super

15:55James Emmett:So almost have an in-house sort of, here's our in-house creators. Yeah. We can package them into your suite of rights as well. Yes, I'd say I think that's going for some conversations, that's going to be really good. It's a bit like if you go back 10 years and the idea of creating a media house in a football club in order to reach audiences through non-traditional broadcasts. It's fantastic. And for some partners, great. But for others, that independence of not being with the rights holder is really important. Because if PSG, we do sponsor content clearly for some of our partners, but sometimes they just want to be left alone to be able to provide the cake mix, if you like, the ingredients.

16:38But they really want their agency relationships or their creators to do the same. I don't think there's one size fits all. That's really important. But it's funny, isn't it? Whether you look at the trends for everybody wearing football shirts or everybody wanting a fashion collaboration, the word collaboration is just so overused, isn't it? Or everything that football teams or sports clubs are doing to try and reach the audience. It's never necessarily just the, oh, it's a groundbreaking concept. It's more how you deliver it. Same with creators. Same with advertising. There's a lot of bad examples, I suppose.

17:14James Emmett:I'm not going to ask you to name some bad examples, Richard, because no, that wouldn't be fair. Let's move to the cultural sort of resonance point, Richard. And again, Alex and I sort of discussed it on the first episode. You've been at PSG, you've done just over a year now, am I right? Or are we two years? It was Champions League semi-final last year at Arsenal. That was my first date. I wonder what your view is on how PSG approaches that idea of cultural resonance and showing up in different spaces and how your understanding of that has maybe sort of evolved as you've been a part of it for just over a year.

17:53My first feeling is this can never be a veneer, can it? This can never be a strategy. It can't be something that you dial in and say, oh, now we're culturally relevant, we're trying to do X, Y, and Z. You genuinely, I feel, do you have a need that is really, really burning? If you do, you're going to throw a lot of welly at this. And if you're going to throw a lot of welly in it, are you really in the scene that you're talking about connecting with? And if you're not, good luck, because it will stand out like a sore thumb. so if you use the psg example i think going on riffing from what we're saying before about need we play and you guys hit the nail on the head when you were talking about it a couple of weeks ago we play in liga and just you know these are openly talked about numbers but if you look at the revenue that let's say wolves got because they were relegated this year from the epl that would be to the power of 10 what we would have got from playing in liga so dembele costs the same whether you play in Liga or whether you play in La Liga or in the EPL.

18:53So with the rules now on funding for football clubs, you have to earn revenue. You have to, you have to be able to see. So if your two primary revenue streams for us, traditionally, that would be TV rights, I guess. For us, it's not. Size of stadium is equates to how much you can earn from experiences and tickets and hospitality. and we're probably quite good at that but we have a 48 ,000 seat stadium and our competitors would be in 70 80 90 now that's something we'll address but that'll take a few years so we have a financial need right those Deloitte lists aren't just vanity they're literally saying how much can you spend on your team to have a good player to win the Champions League if you're faced with that and ownership group from Qatar is our chairman is absolutely one in the detail of this two ambitious for us to win so if that's the case you can you simplify this very clearly and say well we need to find different ways other football clubs don't do to find an audience if you find that then you can monetize that audience and you can perhaps catch up and become one of the more leading sports entertainment brands and to do that i know this is just a personal thing i find that liberating because if i was probably i probably wouldn't be necessarily a person to just talk about sort of how many hospitality places we have at the part of pounds versus exactly what we're talking about can hear the creativity leading to ideation of what you can do to get to increase your fans and make more money from it that's the game that's so culturally for us we are very clear about our story i don't think it matters whether we're talking about football or my background is tennis or the nba or rugby different sports it's always saying what's the story of your brand what are you trying to say and we're very clear on this paris right that's paris paris means lots of things to lots of people but it's very clearly it's associated with great food great art great culture music to an extent that is what our brand is well there you have a hall pass as long as you enter those scenes with accuracy and integrity and authenticity then you can you you've got a right to be there and you can grow your audience who might not care about football and that for us is just simply how we can grow yeah it will be totally different if you're West Bromwich Albion, totally different.

21:27But you need your story. And I question how many of our brethren in sport really go hand on heart. My one liner is the story of our brand is this. And whether it's creator content or whether it's how you show up at the stadium or what you do with partners, all of these stories have to come from that one truth. I think it's relatively simple. Can you talk to some of the initiatives that have unfolded over the last sort of few years? I think from our side, obviously keeping an eye on it because the brand and marketing value brings audience value, which brings commercial value and appeal, right? So the conversations around PSG are pretty broad at the moment just by virtue of what you've become.

22:06But of course it started in fashion, the Nike tie-ups, the Dior stuff, food you've mentioned, bits and music, a global running program. You've got ECC Paris house, a PSG house. Can you talk to sort of their specific initiatives and how they've unfolded over the last few years? Yeah, look, each initiative just comes from a central tenet, if you like, from what we think Paris means to people around the world. So 48 million people visit the city if we do nothing. That's quite good. Yeah. So we talk about taking our brand on tour around the world because we can't always take our players. So we get access to the players so infrequently outside of game time because they're playing so often.

22:45So you have to have something else that you can take on tour to connect with people. So we take Paris. So you mentioned La Maison, it's a pop-up activation and perhaps on a grand scale. In fact, just after we finish recording now, we're just opening the Paris version because we've been to seven cities around the world. We're setting up a Paris activation in Paris, which is intriguing. But the idea is that all of those food collaborations with chefs or fashion collaborations or art or like you mentioned, the running, it all comes back to Paris. So it's always this melange or this mix of the Paris culture with where we're going around the world.

23:23Partners, as you mentioned, Jordan has been a great, that was a great new step out of football, supposedly a basketball brand at the time. Great. We set up a music labs program now where we're bringing in artists from around the world and we record. we set the park to pronounce up for a day and 20 30 recording studios across the stadium recording music we co-promote that with the artists we use some for our own sonic ids we help them launch music honestly just as long as you're not trying to be culturally appropriating i think as long as you're literally giving something into for us fashion art music food around the Paris.

24:09Go for it. All of those opportunities, you know, we do that with our partners. So we say that we'll have partners that are interested in our food programs, nothing to do with football. We have partners who are involved in music, nothing to do with food, nothing to do with football. You'll never see them at the stadium. And it feels like a model for growth, I guess.

24:27James Emmett:I was going to come on to that, actually. And you've sort of taken us part of the way there, Richard. When you're actually getting into the mechanics of putting together a deal, a partnership for PSG. And as you alluded to earlier, you've worked at lots of different rights holders across the sporting world in the past. Tennis Australia, the EFL, the NBA, UEFA, World Rugby. You've done them all. What are the key differences when you're putting together a partnership for PSG? Not just in the sort of right structure, but like how you talk partners through the process? I think as a personal approach, we've been doing this for a while now, is exactly what we're talking about there.

25:09Are you really clear about your story? Don't try and sell a story that you're not. It's really a bit embarrassing. Try and be really genuine about what your entity is. At PSG, we're very clear about that, and that gives us a very wide field of fire. When you're putting together partnerships, therefore, it's literally, guys, what are you trying to do? Who do you want to reach? What do you want to position with your brand? Now, some of those assets that we have for the traditional, you may want probably, and those are finite traditionally, aren't they? So whether it's shirt branding or LEDs or just being activating in the stadium, we create something new for that partner.

25:55or maybe we create something that we work with six partners on. But it can be totally tailor-made as long as you're clear on which areas your story represents. And if there's an overlap, and mostly there is, James, I mean, it's not rocket science.

26:12James Emmett:Now, if I compare the different environments that I'm in, I think if you look at the Australian Open, we built that business on the same principle. If you're just selling backcourt advertising, or that's chronically dull and for some brand it might work but honestly what else are you doing you know are you building secret rooms in the ticketing office that no one will ever know about but 10 of their guests every day gets a knock on the door and a security guard opens up and you've built a jazz bar behind or you turned your finance department into i think what was for two weeks one of the world's best jazz clubs but you could do anything you do anything all based on the idea that if you really understand your brand but also what the other brand wants to do wow go for it yeah do you think that the grounding that you had at tennis australia and you were at tennis australia for six years i think i'm around six or seven years yeah something like that that's not the question the question isn't how many years were you at tennis australia but tennis australia sort of known for and the time that you joined um sort of alongside craig tiley really known for innovation trying different things it's become known as the happy slam now it's this place where sponsors are so seamlessly integrated into every facet of the experience and that started at your time during your your time there do you take inspiration from that i guess i'm trying to um phrase a question in a more creative way than where do you get your wacky ideas from richard do you know what the can conversations where things like this we always used to take our partners from australia and we do the same now in in psg we take them to places that they don't expect so yes it's fantastic playing champions league go to liverpool or or almadrid but where's real creativity happening i think it's coming from theater i always think theater is an interesting model right you've got the same show and you've got to fill it seven times a week oof yeah we only get to do that once or twice it's easy right um i think you just gotta it's a it's an approach isn't it do you genuinely like this i personally i love it it's a game so if you're looking at psg i don't want to say that we start with the premise of what other football clubs wouldn't do we'll probably have a go at it's not that simple but you can't fake it can you it's just something that you're really interested in finding great ideas that brands or broadcasters or digital partners or homes whoever i i love the idea in its simplest form that the three of us we're going to have a party right next weekend you imagine all the thinking we do about what music what the lighting the food who we've inviting every touch point and if you're a host you do that that's all we are in the sports industry we're either bringing people to our home as a stadium or we're trying to recreate that for people who aren't necessarily there and it's that detailed kind of real i really care about whether you have a good time i genuinely really care well if that's the case what do you want yeah another good example sorry i'm on a rant here but i find that's really disappointing in our industry is hospitality it's a corker james alex richard go sit over there table of 10 you're not going to choose your food you'd sit down at 7 30 that's your lot oh by the way it's quite expensive why in our world would we ever do that if we went out in london or paris tonight where's the choice where are sports brands offering opportunities that are really you know paris is brilliant where's our brasserie where's our their french shenny and soup where all those wonderful probably parisian cliches surely surely we want to be offering that and i think if you look at your digital channels you look at your broadcast channels you look at your sponsorship ideas your event what you do around the world it's a it's a simple similar question you've got to ask yourself i think we're sort of seeing a few entities probably look with envious eyes over what psg are doing and starting to respond if you know talk about your sort of wacky idea notion um looking at someone like an arsenal who in the process i'm quite sure it's got to be in the process of doing a dating show for example for lonely soul arsenal fans and i think it's quite quite a nice idea again unconventional i suppose in the context of football marketing and rights holders do you feel you guys have got a bit of a target on your back in that regard or are you just not worried because you've got such a clear roadmap and brand strategy and genuinely don't know and i i don't really care in a sense because yeah we have to look if we had arsenal's domestic tv rights maybe we'd be a little bit more conservative i don't know but i don't know why you would i don't necessarily see any of this as wacky it's just clear thinking it's we have elements about a brand story that we can do around the world that brings fans in who maybe like football i'll give you an example james you support us all day i do richard yeah i am never going to try and convince you not to why would you ever try that what a waste of time so if you roll that out to hundreds of millions of people around the world most people already have teams so why would you try and waste say my fans are better than your fans it's nonsense for us if i can provide you for example new york last week we built something which was for during the world cups during the knicks yeah it's quite quite a ballsy thing to do right during the world cup it's all meant to be about national teams no we'll just provide some magic of france paris that you come and come along and we know what people like it's the food it's the art it's the okay can you do that it doesn't matter whether you like us as a football club honestly if you don't ever support us.

32:08I'm not trying to put you into some mythical funnel where you come out at the end as a season ticket holder, or even a visit the ground, or subscribe to a digital package. Don't care. Just like the brand.

32:22James Emmett:Well, on that, and at a slightly sort of more prosaic level, just like the brand, that's a luxurious position to be in as a chief revenue officer, if that's your target. I wonder how you are measuring the success of some of these more creative partnerships or the aspects of your partnerships that veer towards the non-core, non-traditional. You do an activation with a partner that's focused on food and has nothing to do with football in it. Is that simply great? Well, we activated some of their activation budget for that how are you measuring what success looks like in these this is look i think that's the key question and the answer is no we're not doing that it's very simple this one and obviously a revenue responsibility we want to earn a billion euros this year so it has to make money and there's this conversation about long-term brand value and maybe you've got to take a medium to long-term view maybe but you're not going to be able to afford to make any of these activities unless you're making money now yeah so when we activate la maison or the food or the music lab or anything it's always profitable or we don't do it we talk a lot about brand psg and we talk a lot about how to commercialize that there is no difference we don't believe that there's something that you do which is good for the brand and something that you do when you sell it, I think that sort of binary thinking is probably quite divisive.

33:58If you create something which is good for the brand and you can either monetize it today or next week. Look, as a football club or any sport I've worked for, we're never cash rich for marketing, are we? Because we're money in people because we sell our ip so if that's the case you can therefore not spend millions on ad creatives or events or activities or touch points around the world because you can't afford that because you've got to pay for the players so this is why i think football clubs or whatever just don't do it it's seen as a cost was if you change that mindset and you go no everything you do has a 20 margin margin at least.

34:41Well, you can do as many as you like. But then when you're selling your club or your vision or your activity, then of course, you've got to sell it differently because you're not talking about those LEDs probably. It's just a discipline, but it's possible.

34:54James Emmett:Where's the next sort of white space opportunity then, Richard? You mentioned theatre earlier, and clearly you are enjoying your life in Paris. Yes. Yeah, it's lovely. Is there something that you've been wanting to try that you've not tried yet? And yeah, where can we expect PSG to show up differently next? Something that's an interesting one I've never cracked. We're talking a lot about live experiences here, in-person experiences. Partners like that a lot because they can touch and feel the customer and you can measure it by attendance and money and all of that. But I'm always interested, how can you bring those live experiences, which can be scalable but not massively around the world, how can you bring those alive with a parallel media strategy which doesn't rely on the live game and i think the creativity around that is probably where we need to push into just because we can scale the number of people we talk to i'm very interested about the stadium and we're discussing now the building of a new stadium but the concept of breaking down some of those myths about football audiences only come five minutes before and have a pie or whatever and then they go home i think that's personally because that's all that's ever been given i think you know in a previous life in tennis you have an average time of 10 hours because there's stuff going on we know here in paris we know where everybody drinks everybody eats and they're all doing it yeah we're just not offering them anything well that's more for us so the experience of what a stadium visit means i know a lot we've been sort of playing on the fringes of this but i think spiritually the the the future of what coming to a sports match actually means can be really improved yeah and i think from a sponsor standpoint i think this plays to some of the conversations we've been talking to already is is one the opportunity becomes a platform for lots of different things rather than just a media channel And I think the language that we talked about a couple of podcasts ago was you could kill several sort of birds with a single stone.