The reality of revamping rugby league with Warrington Wolves CEO Karl Fitzpatrick

0:03Hello and welcome to another edition of the Leaders Sport Business Podcast. the podcast for leaders in sport from leaders in sport. I am David Cushnan. James Emmett continues his holiday. But don't fear, on the show today, we have got something really good. We've got a dip into a sport that we don't dip into too often on the podcast, rugby league, which in the UK at least is undergoing something of a transformation right now. We were up in Manchester a few weeks ago, the northwest of England, very much the heartland of rugby league in the UK. And we were in Manchester to, well, first of all, say hello to lots of folk who are working in the industry.

0:50And it was nice to hear a lot of positive mentions and positive feedback about the podcast. So thank you. A lot of people based up there, a lot of organisations basing themselves in Manchester. So we were up there to say hello to them and to help to launch the Leaders Club Manchester chapter, the latest city that we have set our sights on as far as the Leaders Club is concerned. And remember, the Leaders Club is our membership for aspiring leaders in the sports industry. Do drop us a line if you'd like to find out a bit more about that. It was a really fun evening, really fun event. And while we were there, we had the chance to sit down with the CEO of Warrington Wolves, one of the Super League teams in Rugby League, just recently defeated in the Challenge Cup final, but one of the real stalwarts of the Super League and one of the teams battling for airtime and fans in the northwest of England.

1:48Carl Fitzpatrick, a really fascinating character, former player turned club CEO. and whereas you might expect somebody with that sort of background to lean into the performance and sporting side of the team he runs he's actually gone the other way and in particular upskilled himself on marketing and that's really become a bit of his mission to help Warrington Wolves and by extension the whole sport break beyond its own walls. Just a little bit of context before this conversation. A couple of years ago, IMG entered into a long-term partnership with the Rugby Football League and its Rugby League commercial offshoot with a mission to transform the sport.

2:33It's fair to say that a 12-year partnership is already causing a little bit of disruption and has ruffled a few feathers, par for the course, I suspect. New parameters have been placed on teams on field and off field performance to guarantee or otherwise their super league status and carl fitzpatrick will give you his take on that and lots of other really interesting insights into what it takes to run a team what he sees as some of rugby league's strengths and weaknesses and why he's also looking at what's happening in australia as well so it's a really good list in this. So, stand by for the CEO of Warrington Wolves, Carl Fitzpatrick.

3:20Carl Fitzpatrick, welcome to the Leaders Sport Business Podcast. It's great to see you. Absolute pleasure. It's great to see you coming up north and having an event up here. Fantastic. Love it. We're delighted to be here. And shall we start by talking about the Challenge Cup or not? Yeah, we can touch on that. It's been a few days now, so gently getting over it. Look, we played our part in a classic no doubt it's going to go down as one of the greatest memorable games the time to cut finals for many different reasons as I was saying I think everyone was a winner apart from ourselves great spectacle great crowd tremendous viewing figures Hulk here first time they've won it in 45 years great narrative fantastic for the game fantastic for the cup competition as I say everyone was winner apart from ourselves look we played our part and I don't want to get into the performance here but look we had enough ball enough territory we should have posted enough points on the board I was actually saying to Alistair Campbell who was a guest of ours who sat behind me and I said I could just sense with 15 minutes to go I said Alistair I think there's going to be a big moment in this game that's going to really swing it because at this point it was on there do you know what I mean it was what six points, six points to two.

4:41And then it happened. We got a repeat set. They got the ball back off a drop out. We had a penalty. And then, I mean, they put a kick in, took a bit of deflection and ultimately got over. And that's it. They're taking off the blue and primrose ribbons of the Challenge Cup and putting on the red and white, red and white and all care. And look, and I say, in sport and life, you tend to get what you deserve. Not in this instance, I thought, which I mean, leading up to 78 minutes. and then for it to get taken away, just devastated from our, do you mean, our loyal, passionate supporter base. They made such a noise, such an atmosphere.

5:18And it's just gutted for them because obviously we was there last year as well. And do you mean we didn't manage to do the job last year or this year, I thought we performed much better than we did last year. But look, we're down, but we're not out. We're down, but we're not out. Now we turn our focus to Super League. Very, do you mean, it's very competitive, very congested in that middle tranche of teams in the Super League where we sit at the moment. And again, we'll be better for the experience. Do you know what I mean? We've had young players out there, Aaron Lindor, 18 years of age. Do you know what I mean?

5:51Come up with some great players. Come up with a couple of areas as well, but come up with some fantastic players as well. He's going to be better for the experience and he's going to get more opportunities to play in big games like that. And no doubt he's going to be better for that. It's what Challenge Cup is one of the, certainly in the uk uh probably the mainstream moment for rugby possibly over and above the grand final um itself outside of the winning or the losing and the performance of the team on the day from a club point of view how how did you go about sort of maximizing the london experience the wembley experience working with your partners ensuring that the the fan base had a fantastic trip despite the thing that you possibly can't control the final result yeah so it's always interesting in the cup competitions because you put a lot of energy a lot of uh preparation get organized things ahead of the semi-final and then if you get beat boom it all it all stops and i've been involved in goodness what 10 12 semi-finals and six finals so i know i know exactly what it's exactly what it's like so fortunately this time we was able we was able to get through so therefore travel is really important for our for our supporter base so communicating that do mean travel opportunities uh both rail uh bike uh that blada blada and merchandise very important uh you've not got a massive window to capitalize on it i mean i think it was two two three weeks more than you have for the grand final.

7:26So again, you have to get all that ready to go. Do you know what I mean? But we don't want to have too much left over stock. So stock control, looking at previous year's sales, et cetera, et cetera, providing enough of a range of supporters to buy without basically putting too much stress on our stock. So it's getting all those things in place. From a partner experience, so on the Friday night, night before the game, we had an exclusive, intimate event. We've won a fantastic partner, Green Alls, that are owned by quintessential brands at their office on the Strand, an intimate event. We had some live music in there, and again, just providing a memorable experience and a memorable moment for those value partners.

8:06Because what we tried to do today, we tried to include and make it a memorable occasion for everyone, not just for people, do you know what I mean, that work at the club or the directors or the players, but everyone associated with the club because the contribution, whether that be with financial, whether that would be support, political lobbying, whatever it may be, we want them to enjoy and be rewarded as well. So these kind of games allows us the opportunity, allows the platform to reward our loyal stakeholders. Fill in the gaps for anybody listening. We've got a lot of listeners in the UK, but a lot of listeners outside the UK who might be a little bit less familiar with Warrington Wolves and sort of size, scale of the club.

8:52Paint us a picture of the organisation as it is today. Okay, so we, 7 million turnover business. We are the only team in professional rugby league that's never been out the top division from day one. So we was part of one of the founding fathers. So a very snapshot of the history of rugby league. So at one stage, there was only one quarter of rugby. However, now the Northern teams, the Northern players, couldn't afford to take time off work to go and play rugby league. The working class up north was called broken time. So many clubs would represent organisations. If they got injured or if they take your time off work, they wouldn't ultimately get paid for it.

9:37And ultimately, they couldn't afford to do that. So there was a meeting at St George's Hotel in Huddersfield. 20 clubs, 20 founding fathers as we like to call them. We was proud to be one of those and we broke away. We broke away and created the Northern Union. So basically we've been born out of rebellion. We've been born standing up for the working class and we still got that spirit in us today that we stand up for. We stand up for those that have social injustice, those that have not been heard, those that want a fur, do you mean a fur crack at it. So that's how Rugby League was starting. It's still in our DNA.

10:14It's still in our spirit today. That was back in 1895. And we was part of that. And we'd never been at the top division since then, which is not a bad effort. We've been close a couple of times, which has been quite frankly attacked. Adds a bit of pressure to the job. Adds a bit of pressure, yeah. We was close there about, what, three, four years ago, which is an incredible achievement. But geographically, David, we're in a really challenging sports market. We're right in between Manchester and Liverpool. And you think you've got, what, three, potentially four giant Premier League clubs in Liverpool, Everton, Man United and Man City.

10:50So we've got to position ourselves slightly different than those clubs. We really embrace we are in the entertainment industry because we can't go toe-to-toe with Premier League football. It's omnipresent. It's also, it's really big in Warrington as well. So we've got seven junior clubs, community clubs in Warrington. There's 52, do you mean, community football clubs. So that's what we're up against. So we have to position ourselves very, very different. So as I say, we embrace it. I know it's a little bit cliche, but we are in the entertainment industry. We're probably more akin to an American franchise than a traditional sports club.

11:28And we do, the culture of the club is entertainment. it is Luke, we're a content producer. So we position ourselves very, very much different, unlike a traditional sports club. So we have managed, with this approach, we've managed to attract some blue chip partners. Hoover is our principal partner, BMW Hallowell Jones, our stadium naming rights. We have an agreement with Red Bull, Uber Eats. So we've managed to, because of our position and because of our approach and how we conduct our business, we've managed to secure some blue chip commercial partners. We have an average attendance of 11 ,500.

12:20We play at the Hallowell Jones Stadium. We've won a number of Challenge Cups. We've won a number of league leaders. We've yet to win the Grand Final. We played in four Grand Finals at Old Trafford and not managed to get over the line just yet. So although Rugby League is a stronger part of the DNA in the town, football's also being in the town, and therefore we have to be creative in terms of grabbing attention, which is, as we all know, is very, very, very important. And in terms of your role, you've made that transition that lots of people try and not everybody necessarily succeeds at as moving from player to executive and player to CEO.

13:02how did you find that transition um and how how have you found the the task of thinking about the the nuts and bolts so sponsorship and ticketing and the match day experience and the venue yeah all of that it's funny actually because people presume being a being a former player that my uh i suppose forte strong point would be more leaning towards the performance department and And of course, I understand the dynamics and the operations of the performance department. But my strong point probably is the marketing and commercial aspect of the club. And there's a couple of lessons that I learned whilst being a professional athlete that probably I've carried through to my transitioning career off after finishing playing into being an executive.

13:58And the first one is you've got to be willing to do what others are not willing to do. Now, I'm not suggesting anything immoral, but what are you going to do that your competitors are not doing? Or what are you going to do to stand out to get that promotion, to get that job opportunity? And that kind of leads into my second one is the best investment you can make is in yourself. Do you mean despite the industry you're in, despite the organisation? If you continually invest in yourself and you're obsessed with improvement, you'll always go far and you'll always, I suppose, get opportunities. So with those kind of two approaches, I think that's one of the reasons why I've been able to finish playing professionally and then move up the ladder pretty quickly and become chief exec at age 34, 35.

14:51And I was doing things like, I went over to the stage, like spent time with the LA Lakers, spent time with WWE, spent time with Red Bull, visit a lot of the Premier League clubs. So understanding how these businesses and sports organization operates and what sets them apart, what makes them the point of difference in their market. uh been over to Boston Celtics that that that kind of investment in yourself I also then went back and did a and did a did an MBA as well so I did my first degree with sports performance and then I was then I was fortunate off to do a to uh to get a distinction with my with my with my MBA who when you did all of that who has impressed you the most either an organization or an individual who have you really looked at and thought actually there's some things there that I can really The Lakers.

15:38Yeah? The LA Lakers. What was it about them? The LA Lakers, because despite them being an uber cool sporting organisation, they are still leaning to that and still try and take that to another level. Like the celebrities that they have on court side is just next level, Jack Nicklaus, et cetera. And they don't rest on the laurels with that. So they work hard on their celebrity and influencer strategy. Despite being uber cool, despite pulling all those celebrities, they're still really aggressive and really proactive with pushing that even further. And I think that's a valuable lesson that us as Super League and us as Warren's Wolves can really take into that because I think we've probably got a bit of an identity issue, identity crisis of understanding, okay, what are we?

16:25What do we stand for? And I think there's lots of cool elements of Super League have been in the North and we're here today in a really cool venue. There's so much cool about the North, the music industry, the music, the bands that come from Manchester, the bands that come from Liverpool, the fashion brands that's in, to be local to this area, the Premier League club, just so much coolness, so much we can be proud of that I think we need to position ourselves and align ourselves with that, understand that, lean into that and be bold and be brave about it. One of the other big elements of your role, I would imagine, is as well as managing your team and looking after the team is in terms of your executive team as well, is managing up.

17:05We're always interested in sort of owner... CEO dynamics and what that looks like. You've got an owner in Simon Moran who is very steeped in this music world and, uh, you know, the sort of events and concerts space. Um, what is the dynamic like, what's his input like, and how have you, how have you sort of, I guess, what have you taken from him that you can sort of apply to, um, a bit more of the day to day? Great. So, do you mean, incredible relationship with Simon, I speak to him probably at least once a day more than I speak to him. And I've said this before about him. I'm not too sure if there's anybody else in rugby league anyway that has had such a positive impact on the club.

17:50And I argue with the game, which I'll touch on shortly, as Simon, they should be building a statue inside the ground for him. But he doesn't want any of that. I mean, totally understated. Watch this go under the radar. are. Absolutely, absolutely incredible in terms of driving force and not just in terms of the resource and the finances that he's put into the club, but just the emotional input, just his passion for the game. He watches the NRL, he takes a keen interest in the academy games, he's really, really invested, both obviously financially, but also emotionally as well. but again doesn't want any kind of recognition now Simon was heavily involved in getting the ashes off the ground I'm not too sure if you were of that but he was a driving force behind that he had a financial commitment that he was basically willing to back the game to ensure that if he didn't respond as positively as he did that he would basically underwrite that series which is incredible which is phenomenal and he doesn't want any father He doesn't want any kind of recognition, doesn't want any for it, but that should be pointed out.

19:02In terms of what I've learned from him is he's very, very pragmatic. So in my early years as a CEO, dealing with agents, and I deal with players, and if I felt that a player probably got the better end of the deal or an agent was able to do us over, I'd get really emotional and really irritated. He needs to be just, go, let's move on, don't worry about it. and he'd never lose sight of the end goal of what we wanted to achieve. He'd never let emotion impact on the ultimate objective, the ultimate outcome, which is difficult in a dream when you're going through tense negotiations and you think that, do you mean, they're not conducting themselves in, they should conduct themselves, and you think you're being fair, and of course we've got salary caps that we need to adhere to.

19:48He'd never lose sight on, right, let's just get this done, and he'd never take anything personal. And if, do you mean, something materialized were they may have got the better end of the deal and they didn't conduct themselves in a great manner, it wouldn't hold any grudge, you just move on. In terms of his ability to understand the emotion and emotions and kind of not let that, his emotion or the emotional situation influence the decision. His drive is another thing. He's just obsessed. He's just drive. He's always on. He's always on, which I love. Do you know what I mean? And I have a bit of that as well for my professional playing background that you're never satisfied.

20:38Do you know what I mean? You're never satisfied. We won the Chinese Cup during a few years back. Okay, moving on. Moving on. Next thing. Next thing. Next thing. You're never satisfied. You're never happy with the status quo. You're always looking to progress, always looking to grow. And that's something else that I've got from him. He's just never satisfied. He's moving on. Yeah, he's a force of nature. You've touched on it a bit already, but I mean, I'd really be interested in your overall health check on the state of rugby league in the UK at the moment. Where do you think the sport is at? Look, at the moment, we're in a challenging financial, we're operating in a challenging financial landscape.

21:21The TV rights obviously has dropped significantly over recent years. But that said, this season, when we look at some of the key markers, attendances are up. The viewing figures are up. Social engagement's gone through the roof. Do you know what I mean? The Las Vegas game was an absolute sensational initiative and projecting game that, I mean, it delivered the second highest viewing figures in skies. in Super League's history. So there's so much positivity going on. We've got the Ashes at the end of the season. I mean, two of those games are sold out already. So there's so much positivity. There's so much to look forward to.

22:07And the TV deals up in two years. But we're putting ourselves now in a really, really strong position in the marketplace as a really strong proposition. I think probably what we need to do, David, is probably diversify our media rights and our content, whether that's curving some out for YouTube or Amazon, whatever that may be, but not being too reliant on linear. Now Sky Sports have been an incredible partners for a number of years. Phenomenal and how they got behind the game. The Vegas game was absolutely tremendous. And they've really started to promote Super League, in my opinion, a lot better this year.

22:55But we understand that Sky are also in a challenging financial position as well. So we understand their situation from the other side of the table. it's just up to us to put our best foot forward and present and dress the sport as best as we can and as I mentioned earlier that's one area I think we can sharpen up on and improve on is the content that we put out I think it probably needs to across the clubs it probably needs to improve it's not a level where it probably needs to be and it's an understanding what is our story and being consistent and being consistent with that we've got some fantastic I like to use characters in the game we probably need to amplify them a little bit more, we probably need to be more like WWE than Premier League football again, just position ourselves a little bit different because we've got some unbelievable characters but we probably don't lean into that well enough, as well as we should be, and in terms of the product I'd back our product against of course I'm biased, but I'd back our product against most other sports, it's phenomenal, I do say the modern day gladiators I mean, the game's absolutely brutal.

24:06We had a player that marked Sneedy. He fractured his eye socket, had an operation. He played two weeks later. It's about a face mask. It's phenomenal. The actual product is incredible. I'm liking it a little bit to the MP3 player. Apple didn't create the MP3, the first MP3, but they dressed it, they positioned it, they marked it better than anybody else. And then obviously it gained significant momentum. And I see that with Super League. We've got an unbelievable product. We'll just need to position it a little bit smarter, a little bit cleaner, a little bit more hip. And I think we can realise our potential.

24:43One of the other things that has happened over the last couple of years is the partnership between the sport and IMG. And I think fair to say that some changes, some bold initiatives, the club grading system, minimum sort of requirements on the field, off field. and, you know, a disruption to probably the status quo. A couple of years into that, what is it? And sort of build as a long-term partnership. What's your assessment of what's going well? What could be still to be worked on? Yeah, so the grading one's an interesting one. Now, philosophically, I agree with it. I do, I do. but when you're actually in it, in the nuts and bolts of it and working through, it probably needs tinkering with a little bit.

25:37It probably needs adapting, probably more credence, credibility given to the on-field performance maybe. But I understand philosophically what we're trying to do, but now we've been in the thick of it, I'm not totally convinced with the, I suppose, with the methodology. Now, in terms of some of the branding, I think they've done a pretty decent job. I think they've probably been a little surprised in terms of the challenges that the game faces. they probably anticipated the last TV deal to maybe have an uplift but it actually had a decrease so again that's presented challenges now in their defence they did present some recommendations which the clubs at that time couldn't take them up on for example dropping the loot games we understand that the loot games may not be as attractive but the clubs couldn't relinquish them because they're dropping the TV rights we needed the gate revenue we needed the games so just explain what the loot games are so loot games is basically we play some teams three times and some teams twice so depending on where you finish in the league the year before you play odds and evens etc etc so then it can be a bit of support fatigue like you could end up playing a team do you mean you get them in a cup and playoffs like five times so they do you mean recommended maybe just dropping them but we was unable to do that because the TV deal dropped So central distributions dropped and the central distributions have dropped in the space of four or five years, a tune of a million pound.

27:26In that same time, costs have probably gone up a million pound. So when I say we're operating a challenging financial landscape, that kind of gives you a bit of an indication of what we're dealing with. So look, I'd like to see a little bit more from them in terms of, I mentioned earlier about what the LA Lakers bring in terms of stardust. Obviously, they're engaged with some high level celebrities. I'd like to see them kind of bring them to the table and help us develop our brand and our brand equity in that respect. So, yeah, I'll probably say it's probably just okay if I'm being honest with you at the moment.

28:03And I guess the other element that's always interesting is Australia and the NRL. And there's a lot of, I think, interest from the NRL in Super League. And there's been certain sort of initiatives. And I know the London Broncos, I think, are going through an ownership change, which sees a bit of Australian influence come into their organization, as an example. How much are you looking at the NRL? What are you impressed by? Are there straightforward things that can be applied across to Super League? And actually, is increased NRL interest, ultimately maybe investment in Super League, a positive?

28:49Yeah, I think so. I think, of course, without getting into the detail here, that would need to be worked through exactly what does it look like. but there's only really two bona fide professional leagues, the Super League and the NRL, so it probably makes sense to work together. Now, we worked very closely with the NRL with the Vegas game and worked with Peter, Andrew Abdo and John Vellis. And one of the things that really hit home, to me anyway, is the very media first. Every opportunity that they can get, they're looking to get column inches, looking to get some media exposure with everything.

29:35Even with the issue we had with head coaches, Visa, they wanted to the point where they kind of enjoyed it because that was getting them during column inches. It was getting the press focus on it so that the game's always in the press. It's always front of mind. so that was one of the things I took away from them is just understanding that do you mean just trying to get a media angle looking through the sport as again as basically a content producer because they do things like the Heritage Round right which I imagine would be a huge game yeah phenomenal yeah and look they did the Vegas game do you mean the year before they came up with that fantastic idea and that reach was tremendous us.

30:20So that was one of the things I picked for them. And also, the economies of scale, they've invested significantly into their digital transformation. So again, is that something that we could be able to share and enjoy? Could there be a global TV deal with a Dissol maybe looking further down the line? So I think it makes sense to have those conversations. I think they was impressed in terms of what ourselves and Wigan brought to the table with Vegas and the standard the potential that we have and what we can bring in our supporters. I mean, we had, what, 10 ,000, 12 ,000 supporters travel across and they actually lit up the event to the tune where there's two more clubs going over next year, which is fantastic.

31:00So I think they see the potential of the game over here. They're probably running out of content. They're meant to maximise their market, which is great. So it makes sense to have those conversations. Obviously, there will be a lot to work through. I don't know the detail, but it's certainly worth having a conversation because the game over there is absolutely thriving. Final question. If we sit and have this conversation again in a year's time, what sort of top of your priority list as far as Warrington Wolves are concerned? Great question. Great question. Apart from all the trophies. Obviously, that's number one.

31:37That is number one. We're sat here, not fair from here, from Old Trafford, having one hour made in Grand Final. I say we've been in fourth finals. We won Challenge Cups League leaders. We're still to get that one, which we will. It's just, it's not a matter of if. It's going to be when. So, okay, I'm going to give you a couple of here. So what I'd like to see, I want to see one of our players on the front of Men's Elf. Okay. That's what I'd like. Okay. That's what I'd like. The players are always the anchor. And we've got some cool players that, I mean, look great in fantastic, fantastic condition.

32:19So I want to see one of our players on the front of Men's Health or GQ, something like that. That's what I would, that's what I'd like us to see. I wouldn't have guessed that answer. Yeah. But it's a good answer. that means that we're breaking out of a rubbly bubble which i'm obsessed with breaking out of that rubbly bubble we want we want to be we want to be a national global brand do you know i mean and that's why we we do some of the stuff that we do and we some of our marketing activations some of our content uh could be perceived as controversial but it grabs attention when we're in the attention industry uh so that that would that would be one so obviously grand final a player on the front of Men's Health or GQ.