The TikTok Gameplan: How James Maddison and Spurs led the Premier League on TikTok

0:03Hello and welcome to another episode of Leaders Worth Knowing, the sports business podcast from us at Leaders in Sport for you, other leaders in sport. This is an episode of the TikTok Game Plan, how James Madison and Spurs led the Premier League on TikTok. My name is James Emmett. I'm the editorial director here at Leaders. And this episode features a conversation that I recorded at Leaders earlier in October with James Madison, the Tottenham Hotspur and England midfielder. And he was joined by Shanil Patel, the head of social at Spurs and TikTok's global head of sports partnerships, Rollo Goldstau.

0:54Now, this is the third and final episode in a series we've been running with TikTok. The TikTok Game Plan. We've had episodes on magnifying women's sport with Mary Earps and one on owning the narrative with Rich Paul. You can find those on the podcast feed if you scroll back a few months. Now, this conversation with James, chenille and rollo um was recorded immediately after an on-stage session at the main stage at leaders it was recorded backstage and what we're going to do is play the conversation but intersperse a few clips from the on-stage session which was moderated expertly by joe tongue the founder and CEO of Tongue Tied Management and a big Spurs fan too.

1:50So here is the conversation. Hello and welcome to the Leaders Podcast, the TikTok playbook. I am here at Allianz Stadium, Twickenham, with a all-star cast. A few folks have just got off stage here at the summit. I'm going to ask you to introduce yourselves, folks. We've got Rollo, Chanel and James here. Chanel, let's start with you introduce yourself please i'm shanil patel head of social media at tottenham hotspur football club okay james i am james madison 28 year old male professional footballer for tottenham hotspur okay you've gone in with your age there i like it just in case people don't i noticed you didn't say your age from 35 so there you go and rolle yes uh my name's roy i work at tiktok as our global head of sports partnerships uh it's quite hard following a professional footballer but i'll try how old are you please uh 36 okay god so young people i think i always forget okay you're gonna introduce yourself yeah no james emmett here uh editorial director at leaders 39 years old actually uh 40 next year that's how it works um we're here to talk about tiktok we're here to talk about spurs on tiktok the number one premier league team certainly on tiktok and we're here to talk about james madison on tiktok james what are you watching on tiktok what is the thing that keeps coming up on your for you page oh god how long have you got um now mine varies so much my for you page but i think i think the stuff the weird stuff that i it's like almost guilty pleasure okay keeps coming back because i keep watching it you know careful james yeah yeah i'm watching cheeseburger reviews i'm watching dads and sons i'm watching there's a there's a girl on there who goes to visit her grandma who's got Alzheimer's and she's on my For You page every day and they're like two minute long videos and I'm locked in you know it's real variance yeah good Chanel mine's completely random as well between football golf I love golf yeah DIY renovations because I'm trying to plaster my house at the moment you know like various things yeah um I think one person just brings some I don't even know his name but he just keeps popping up I don't follow him but he's a guy from New Jersey who gives really amazing life advice in like a very comedic way and he's absolutely blown up recently and it's just it's just so ridiculous but he's just getting tons of engagement so he keeps popping up for me and ronnie a lot of dad content i have a daughter who's almost two years old i also a lot of american sport my new job means i work with a lot of u.s organizations i need to learn a lot about um different different american sports there's one where the this couple are kind of explaining what happened in the nfl that weekend but like it's gossip like a guy and a girl and it's great yeah interesting that house renovation stuff like TikTok is really good for sort of how-to guides.

4:39Like if you want to do, like it's such a, that blew my mind the other day. I couldn't look out how to turn a light off in a hotel. How many, James, does it take to turn off a light in a hotel? I needed the power of TikTok to help me turn off a light. But we got there in the end. Turns out just closed the door. James, how many followers do you have on TikTok? Do you know? Over 2 million, I think. Yeah. I know you. I don't actually know the exact. Okay. I do on other platforms with TikTok. I'm not I'm not 100 % sure I think you've got 2.4 million it's nice it's sort of a bit of humility that you don't you know track that every day yeah I mean I knew it'd be around there what what so what motivates you to pay do you do you like it when your phone blows up when you know you're getting lots of likes and I don't know what motivates me I I've always like trying to show my personality I've always been a very out there kind of person um and TikTok's obviously a great way to do that i can show little short snippets of my life that i think people would either find funny or interesting and i'll put my kids my kids messing around and then they just it just seems to blow up because they forget that the footballer james madison number 10 at tottenham is also a dad at home in the house of carnage you know so i like you mentioned on the stage about the i've got tiktok playing wrestling with my kids using the cushion to smack them over the head obviously not actually smacking them but the the whole humor in it is them pretending to be hit and falling falling over like wrestlers yeah and it's a less than a minute long video and it's yeah i don't know what it's got five million views or something and people just love seeing that and mention it to me in the street at the stadium because they like to get an insight into my life and what life is like away from the pitch and it's very easy to do that so yeah chanel how many followers does the Spurs account have?

6:23Pretty sure it's 42 million 900 ,000. You're contractually obliged to check this every day right? Yeah every other day or so. Also the app rounds it up to 43 so you can just say 43 now. And how would you characterize Spurs TikTok? I would say it's just a lot of fun. Obviously the professional side as well we showcase the football side of things training of course but it's a different personality to say other platforms and I like to think that if a random person who has no interest in football not even spurs just football or even sports like a random person came across the spurs video they'd actually enjoy it and we i hear that quite a bit from people who like friends for example who aren't like football fans and they'd say like i'd love what's going on the tiktok i find it really entertaining and i think that's a good place to be for us um so yeah i think for us i'd describe it as just yeah a lot of fun mixing in with obviously the professional side and what we are as a football club but yeah showcasing the player's personality and in a way sort of humanizing what the Spurs brand is and that's really the players they are the main characters James how does your content work like you touched on a little bit on on stage and obviously when you're at home and those sort of intimate family moments that's just natural you know it's you or your wife kind of filming have you got people to help you sort of come up with ideas for pieces to like to film to post to write captions or whatever how does it all work i do i would say 90 of it um there's some stuff there's some ideas and some stuff that's get that gets pitched to me that i'm just not intelligent enough to think of and stuff you know i'm very humble enough to be able to admit that you know i don't have a plan a strategic plan as such i know tiktok these days especially even at spurs for example, I like the lads at Spurs that I like to, are my probably closest friends who I spend the most time with are Brennan Johnson and Archie Gray.

8:20Archie's just turned 19 and Brennan's 22 or 23. So they're young heads, you know, especially Archie. And he's like such a TikTok generation boy, like brilliant footballer, works his, works his ass off all the time, trains hard every day, proper pro, but he's just from this generation, which is what I call the TikTok generation. you know so he's in touch with everything like that and stuff so i'm constantly taking on info and trying to stay stay young stay uh stay free and and but i do have people around me to to help i have a team i have a big team of people who who help me with lots of different aspects and i have people who help me with tiktok ideas ultimately i'll always have the last say because i think i always think i know best that's just one of my problems my missus would say one of my bad colleagues no i take on a lot of information from people around me and my team and but 90 of it comes from me yeah yeah i think this is why your account's so successful is that it 90 comes from you the like the blind ranking effects you do uh they just feel so natural it's like you face the camera like selfie video mode sitting in your house and so i think that allows you to act like other tiktok creators or users in that way and definitely led into it yeah a strange dynamic that's happening in sport right it was it's probably happening everywhere right but sort of younger generations being much more savvy on particular platforms like than the slightly older generations yeah who are in charge of stuff right and and you've got to give quite a lot of freedom it must be a really tricky balance to strike as a club sort of uh you've got to stick to guidelines and kind of media training and stuff like that like how do you chanel and your team give that license to younger folks on your team to do what they want to do and trust that it won't damage the brand or yeah i mean they always come with ideas uh and to sort of talk through them um then they'll go and execute the ideas and then there's we have a really strong good approvals process as well which allows us to just ensure that the right content is is is going out and just fine-tuning it slightly if we need to or if it doesn't work then we just say i've got to scrap that idea but i'd say 90 the time it's the idea is always thought ahead of time and we the team are very good at planning ahead and knowing what what works so you know if you're planning ahead and being across it then it works no one has complete freedom to to do absolutely everything um maybe apart from all match days when it's so quick and it needs to be in the moment but the vast majority of content you see on our tiktok channel i'll say every single one has gone through an approvals process actually so and that's important i think of the club and as leaders in the company you have to give that freedom to to to the next generation of leaders who are going to be who are making the great creative work i think that's important i certainly was that case when i was in my mid-20s i thought i knew knew what social was more than my boss who was probably similar age i am to now and and having that freedom allowed me to express what i did and that's how i sort of say to the team what what they can do so so we act like creators in a way so So we'll always jump on the trends.

11:26We've got to be quick to it. I think we have to show up every day. That's a key thing. I think fans these days, they don't expect people to see their club just on the TV for 90 minutes on the weekend. They want to be serviced every day of the week. And that's what we do. So we show up and do that. Having fun is definitely the core point of it. But we act like a creator, which I think is really important. So showcasing the personality and trying to humanize our brand as much as possible. You said something really interesting earlier that when we did win our trophy, in those five days, how many TikTok videos did you post?

12:01Yeah, so when we won the Europa League, so that period from when we won the Europa League on the Wednesday through to the Sunday, which was the last game of the season, and then in the middle was the parade, which was an unbelievable five days. We posted 96 times on TikTok, which is averaging out around 20 times a day, which is a phenomenal output from the team. and yeah, the vast majority of that content was all shot on mobile phone which was 75 % of those videos were all mobile phone based so being there in the moment having that access and that ability to shoot really quickly and producing what the audience wants to see on that platform is what we've done which is why I say a lot of the time we produce stuff on TikTok which doesn't really go anywhere else it's there in the platform and that's why it does so well.

12:44I think that consistency and that immediacy especially that week was so crucial especially to the build and the numbers that you saw that week. James, talk to me about you're obviously a face of Spurs on the pitch, but how does that sort of transcend your responsibility beyond the pitch? Can I just say, actually, we do train and work hard. That video is an example of some of the off-the-field stuff. No, listen, I always say that me personally, and every footballer is different, but I think it's very important that we as players try and show our fans and the footballing fans in general our personality and what we're like as people.

13:29And obviously TikTok's a great platform to be able to do that. You've seen some of the fun moments that we have doing that sort of stuff. But I do think it's important because, especially now, everybody's got a phone in their hand, man. And we get put up for a lot of criticism when performances aren't good and stuff. but I think it just like, it almost like humanises a little bit where people actually see us as people rather than just robots and footballers like they did maybe about 10, 15 years ago. So yeah, just about like trying to show our personality and even the other players. I don't mind being on the camera.

14:04I don't mind, I'm comfortable waking up in the morning and looking tired on the camera and having a bit of a laugh. Some lads aren't, some of the players aren't. But I try and get as many of the lads feeling comfortable as possible because I know it will benefit them, the fans being able to see their personality day to day and what they're actually like as people because they're all great lads. And yeah, as I said, you've seen on there, TikTok's a great, great place to be able to do that. There's a couple of things that you said on stage earlier, Chanel, that really struck me and made me think like, oh, I'm not, if I was sort of working in a club, I'm not sure what I would.

14:37You said after the Europa League win, I suppose winning the Europa League a few months ago, you produced 92 TikToks. 96 I think yeah 96 TikToks in a really short period of time right in the next three days something like that yeah uh and then you went on to talk about access like the key thing for getting this right is having this great access to the players being embedded in how they operate so you've got that good behind the scenes content and made me think for the players that level of like that amount of content that's going out that's all sort of captured from you guys just doing your jobs right and this how does this access thing come across to you like how how has chaniel and his team got the balance right that you don't feel like hassled that like you trust and know the people who are the cameras in your faces all the time yeah we but we we as players have pretty good relationship with the media team at tottenham yeah so chaniel and there's a few others and obviously hannah's the main one whose camera's in our face like you just said she's the one holding the phone because you said didn't you yeah most of the videos are captured actually on the phone in a mobile phone yeah and hannah hannah will be there when we arrive but they're very understanding there's some days where we're doing arrivals where i've just had a bad morning or like i'm not i'm in the mood this morning where you just walk your walk trek past i'm so sorry hannah not today okay they're not going to post that because do you know what i mean there's days and just having that kind of relationship where they understand that we we're not always going to want to do content but also taking advantage of the moments where we do want to do it you know and uh the morning middle of the week arrivals especially if we've won a game lads are in good good feeling i think they're pretty good at uh realizing the right moments to do it it's not constant access you know um sometimes hannah will give us a little heads up say we might be doing arrivals uh tomorrow morning so the lads put on a bit of extra nice clothing you know yeah but just having that relationship i think and then one of the videos that got shown on the screen was obviously in it like in the changing room after the win in Bilbao wasn't it where we did the champions league music on and stuff and that's when like ultimate dopamine rush you know like we're such a high just qualified for champions league and won the trophy that Tottenham fans wanted for so long we would have let them video anything you know I mean so you're taking advantage of it do you know yeah 100 % but it's just realizing the right moments as players because then we're talking about TikTok and stuff like that but we are ultimate professionals you know if they were trying to do that at the at the wrong time i for one as one of the leaders would say no not today you need to get out of the changing room or whatever and we have that relationship where i think like we all kind of know the limits and the boundaries and from your perspective chanel clearly there's a good amount of trust you know two-way trust with hannah and maybe someone else yeah there's a few of them yeah a few how many people is the right amount of people you should have in your social team do you think oh um we currently have eight in the team that's across producers creators graphic designers publishing we have a lot of accounts to publish on but it's like over 35 accounts we run but when you break it down across spurs women's first visual etc i'd love to have obviously a few more and everyone would say that of course they would so we can just produce more and more good content um but yeah i think for a team of our size we've got a good amount with eight, I'd say.

17:55I just want to go back to what David was saying around the trust side. I think that's super, super key for any media department at any club is to get that trust with the players. And that takes time. It wasn't like an overnight thing. I think it definitely takes time. And as a result of that, for example, the Europa League final, when you have your biggest moments and the trust is there, the players are free to express themselves and in the knowledge that we know we'll be putting out the right stuff on our channels. I thought the Europa League campaign was absolutely phenomenal and the final and the win and everything and the content we got from it was just like extraordinary so yeah I think we have to build that trust up over time Should your content team be similar age to the players?

18:36Should they be the same sort of generation? And I appreciate in a team there's several generations of players Yeah or in a team there's a mixture of players of different ages I think to get the best content out on the channels you need to have a I think a range of people in my team because we also need not just producing fun content all the all the time because there's also a lot of serious things that happen at the club which we have to act on and there's a lot of and moments like James said like say if there's a loss for example it's not not producing anything fun there we're very much heads down and like sort of move on to the next game a bit like that's what the players are as well but yeah I think that's that's the way we go with it yeah I appreciate that our time is up but I want to to quickly touch on commercial content from both of your perspectives, really, because a lot of people who've been listening to this, sports industry professionals, maybe on the brand side, one of the number one priorities for these folks is working out how to get the best out of athletes, right?

19:34Such a short, limited amount of time that folks have usually, and they need to create the right environment for good content to be made. and I wonder what your first of all James your advice would be you've worked with brands you're clearly very good on digital platforms when you've produced a good bit of content for a brand they're happy with it you're happy with it what does that situation look like that's got the best out of you if I was speaking to someone who wanted advice on if I work with a platform and we create with a brand and we create a good bit of content yeah how do I how have they got that out of you how have they worked with you to make you feel happy confident and like fun comfortable yeah comfortable all the best work gets done like even doing something like this it's quite just like for a podcast for example yeah it's quite uh intense yeah i like to create an uncomfortable environment yeah i think with the lights even some people some people wouldn't thrive in this some people some players who have really good personality yeah would not thrive in here and you would not see you've done very well I'll let you judge that but would feel uncomfortable in this situation because they're just not it takes a lot for so just about making the athlete or the player comfortable and getting the best out of them and I mentioned it on the stage a lot it's because there's players that I've played with who are the funniest most interacting lads that you'll see and they go in front of a Sky Sports camera big camera after a game and freeze up freeze up and say the most textbook media answers ever and I watch it and I think, that's not him.

21:14What is going on there? Because they're not comfortable in that scenario. Because they think it's being professional and to an extent it is, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with showing your personality. It's something I always try and get out of players because it's also links to on the pitch as well. I know this is not about on the pitch, but showing your personality on the pitch and being brave and having the courage to maybe take the ball under pressure. Brendan Rodgers, my old manager at Leicester, kind of a little bit off talk, I know, but he always used to say, show your personality that'd be one of the things he'd say to the team before going out especially if we had a big away game against a team who who's a bigger club than us show your personality and the way you play and i think it's the same with with players and working with brands and stuff that if you get them to show their personality and feel comfortable in the environment then you're going to get the best out of them and it's just a case of it well said chanel final word to you what do you think works best he's a very good answer from james to be fair um no it is about showing the personality especially with the player i think the the real struggle that you have with sometimes like branded content sponsors and with a club and a player there's there's three different like personalities there there's the brand with their messaging there's the club's brand because it's going to go on their channels and then if you want to get the best out of the player where does their personality fit in so i think the the place you need to get to is try and get the holy trinity all three that is also the biggest challenge when people talk about authenticity which is such a buzzword at the moment.

22:39It just doesn't exist, right? The authenticity is that spot in the middle that is a bit of the player, a bit of the brand and a bit of the platform, right? Yeah, really challenging. But I think if you can get to that place and there's quite a few brands out there who do it well and a few leagues. I think Spurs do quite a good job from the brand and content side as well. I think that's where you can get to. So you get the mess out of the player also having the brand messaging in it and it works for the club channels which goes out to the club's audience which is effectively Spurs fans and wider football fans.

23:07In terms of the best TikTok you've worked on or the best video you've worked on, can you give me an example? I mean, there's so many. Or that you've seen. It doesn't have to be one you've done. I think a recent one would be when we signed Moe Kudus in the summer. So this is a great TikTok in general because we were able to jump on a trend. So we used the Pink Pantherous trend, if you might know it. I'm not going to sing it and embarrass myself. but it was obviously a massive signing and it was about meeting another player and we had him and Mickey Van de Ven meet each other and obviously we just announced him as a player but the back story of that was that there was when Mo played against us for West Ham the other season there was a bit of an altercation on the pitch and he got a red card and that was a bit of a back story to the transfer and we were able to play on that slightly in a fun way and the video itself just went absolutely crazy because it was timely, it was relevant, it was jumping on a trend on TikTok.

24:03That was a big moment obviously for the club and also for the players which was great and that was a big one for us that really springs to mind. Rolo, have you got an example? I mean you must see everything. You just remind me when your account did like foot golf around the stadium and it was just such a great piece of content. I actually went on Spurs account earlier and it was when I was swiping through it was the fact that you had seven posts from the Bodo game and four four or five of them had match content in it. It was like goals or highlights. As much as you were saying in the beginning, the fun side of TikTok, the humorous behind the scenes, completely true and something to lean into.

24:39We're also seeing incredible performance around actual match rights as well. From what I could tell, you upload it as soon as the embargo was allowed and it's performing really well. I love seeing that volume and transparently, we want sports organizations to do that more as part of our job to encourage it. So, football, golf and your recent highlights. Don't get me wrong, like James said, we do show them training as well on our TikTok. We're very serious about that professional side of it. But what makes TikTok unique is that we can have that fun side as well. James, your video of your kids, the WWE one, that's great.

25:13Yeah, them ones are fun. See, I make them videos and I don't think, oh, I'm going to make a TikTok now. I'm playing with my kids and my missus has her phone out and we were just messing around, I was hitting them with the cushions, but my youngest boy likes to pretend that he's really been hit and he does this dramatic fall and it's hilarious. You should go and watch it. Will you just capture something and think that would be good on TikTok rather than thinking, oh, I must do it. It's a bit of both, yeah. It's a little bit of both. Sometimes, like I said, TikTok, because you can make a good TikTok and it can just be a matter of seconds, which is what's beautiful, You don't need always loads of hours of work going into a video.

25:55I remember I've got a TikTok where we played for England against Australia at Wembley. And I was dribbling and I cut in to have a shot from about 25 yards. I'm normally alright from that kind of area just to the left. And I had the worst shot I've had in my whole career. It literally went so high and wide. I think it went for a throw-in actually. And I just thought it would be a good time to almost take the mickey out of myself a little bit. and me and my team just created an edit where the ball just goes into orbit and through all the planets and then hits a woman on the face in a sun lounger in another country.

26:29And just make light of not taking it too seriously. We'd win the game. We're just making a joke about it's not always serious. You see a lot of footballers who play the game, do the post-match interview, and it's very down-the-line, straight-batted answers. Rolo, what metrics do TikTok use to benchmark success? Or have you got any good success stories that you could share? A lot of metrics, as you imagine, as an app with lots of different points. I think one of the ones I find interesting, we looked at recently, and we don't normally share these numbers, but we want to look at how many accounts were posting sports content.

27:05So there are things we talk about a lot, like there being a billion users and all sorts of consumption. We want to know how many people are actually posting content we recognise as sports. And it was 60 million different users. So that's not far off the population of this country of posting sports content globally. And so the real difference, one of the many areas to look at with TikTok is not just sitting back and watching or even engaging, commenting, liking. It's actually people co-creating and posting themselves, posting content, whether it's related to Spurs, James, whatever it might be. And that's definitely something from a metric we'll keep looking at and looking at whether that's going up, what's changing.

27:42And then success stories. One of the ones recently was DAZN for the Club World Cup. they really lent in and posted almost 7 ,000 videos in a three-week period. And so that's kind of... That's more than 20 a day, Chanel. It was more than some top, top leagues were posted an entire year. They got 5 billion views, 210 million engagements, all these big numbers. But the one which was really interesting, we had one of the products you would have seen in the video. It drove through to DAZN's app and website. So the idea for us is there's this complaint. general complaint that social media means people are on that instead of watching the live sport.

28:22This page drove through to the zone for people to watch live. And so we're trying to see how we can be the solution to that problem instead of a cause and actually drive live tune in so more people are watching James play the live sport. Which I just think that model is really interesting. So as a platform you are there to direct people off your platform? Yeah, I forgot to say half a million people actually went through. So that's 500 ,000 users went to the zone. So we know that it's active. It's very weird for anyone to be like, we're going to encourage people to stop using our business. But we're okay knowing that that trends point with Jet2 Holidays.

29:00We know people come back. They come back because a lot of the cultural conversation starting point is on TikTok. So we're okay and confident that those users will come back to use TikTok. And we're happy to have that exchange of value with rights holders and broadcasters that we're increasing the amount of people watching live sport it's gonna add one thing on the panel we were talking about um athletes as rights holders and i saw you kind of nodding along be able to you mentioned that uh clip where the shot went a bit bit high and around the world and into i actually saw something on the way up because i was mentioning that you know one day you know athletes will probably live stream their own game and it actually got confirmed when i was looking at my phone we're going to be live streaming uh dennis boinger's uh next lafc game So with Sonny now they're on TikTok on his own account.

29:43So I thought it was just worth sharing because it's brand new news. And I thought on Leaders I can share that news. And it's idea for you, if you had more of that content from the Premier League, from the club, was that something you'd want to post on TikTok? Or is it, do you think it interrupts the balance of what you usually post? Like the right side if you had more of it? Yeah, like when you first say that, I think, how would that work? And how would it look as an image and stuff? I feel like in America, everything's a little bit ahead of the curve in comparison to England and the Premier League.

30:13Firstly, we're not allowed. There's rights with the imaging and using the footage from the games. But the fact that there's going to be someone in LAFC live streaming just the game, is it going to be personalized on him? It's a player spotlight. So it's shared between Sonny, Hugo Lloris, himself and two others. So it's a split across five players and it's a vertical feed. So the first ever one we did was just Messi. And then we actually, with Apple, realized that when that player's not got the ball, it gets a bit boring. So we realized that actually, and it's really obvious. It's like the Zidane movie, right?

30:44Yeah, so it was actually better to split it amongst more players. So the last Inter Miami game we had, it was like their Magic 5, Suarez, Busquets, Messi, and so on. And so this one will be LAFC. We're going to, you know, it'll be streamed globally, so we expect some viewership in South Korea. But yeah, it will go on Dennis's channel or his account on TikTok. talk and so it's just something i'm personally interested in it's like giving athletes more of the power and rights and see what happens with it so we're kind of like it's a test for us yeah messi as well he walks a lot and he's he's done enough to earn the right to be able to walk around a lot when they when he hasn't got the ball he does a bus i went to yankee stadium to watch him and the whole stadium's kind of like relatively quiet he gets the ball and like everyone just stands up and just watches him it's a weird experience but yeah it's good they do the carve out with the WSL deal, didn't they?

31:31Where players can take live footage and put it on their social. I think that's happening for sure with on TikTok with getting the game. I think what we were realizing is just as it was mentioned on the panel, like fans following players more or same as clubs, but definitely as player power of fandom. We also, we see from our data that 75 % of all of the audience for athlete accounts is female. So for TikTok, it's a point where we're like, okay, if you use that account you can reach female fans as well so there's this part where if you're the WSL you're the Premier League you're MLS if you give more power to the athletes you can like expand the fandom of your game interesting tipping point that we're potentially at um I'm afraid we don't have any more time left so it just remains for me to thank uh Shanil James and Rollo thank you very much indeed thank you lads cheers thanks thank you