The TikTok GamePlan: Owning the Narrative with Rich Paul

0:04Hello, everyone. I'm Dan Kaufman with Sports Business Journal and Leaders in Sport. and this is your Leaders Worth Knowing podcast. In particular, it is a three-part series that we call the TikTok Game Plan. We're doing it in partnership with TikTok. I've got two fantastic sports industry guests on my side here, and I'm gonna introduce both of them very quickly, and then we're gonna dive right into it. To my far left is Vanessa Craft. Vanessa is the Global Head of Content Partnerships and Business Development at TikTok. It's a really cool job. We wanna hear all about it. She's also, and I don't wanna embarrass you, but she's also an award-winning journalist.

0:38and she was the editor-in-chief for El Canada, Vanessa. Thank you so much for being here. I'm happy to be here. Thank you. And then to my immediate left is Rich Paul. He's the CEO and founder of Clutch Sports Group. He is also a board member at United Talent Agency. He has many more accolades beyond that, but I'm just thrilled to be here with you, Rich. I got a chance to see you speak at one of our conferences last year called Dealmakers and you were fantastic. So I can't wait to actually have a chat with you this time. Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. Thank you. You both were on stage at TikTok's North American Sports Summit yesterday.

1:11Tell us about your takeaways from that. I'll start with Vanessa. Yeah, I mean, it was an amazing sports summit. It was the first one we've had, which shows how much we're leaned into the sports industry right now. We had NBA, the W, NFL, MLB, NBC, ESPN. We had them all. La Liga there present. And this is because 89 % of TikTok users are interested in sports. This is how big sports is getting on our platform. So, yeah, top takeaway, sports partners are ready to play ball, if I may use a bad little pun. There you go. I love a good pun. Rich, your takeaway. My takeaway was I was actually glad to see the room filled in the manner that it was because our leagues, all of them, has to understand what a platform like TikTok actually means to our game.

2:05And building strategies, not just from a player perspective, but from an actual team perspective, also matters because you have to meet the players in the middle. And so I was glad to see everyone there, which means that we're at least trying to take a step in the right direction as we not be, you know, try not to be so complacent from a linear perspective and really use the resources and the platforms correctly. So I was glad to see everyone there. Yeah, we are seeing how leaned in these partners are. I mean, it's, you know, you're thinking about, I came from traditional media. I know, you know, for broadcasters and big partners like this, this is a big shift to think about.

2:47And you're right, those people in the game so leaned into the conversation, the future is already here. I think on stage yesterday you said something to the effect of 60 million publishers doing sports content on TikTok. Give us some examples of what are the best come like rising to the top of those 60 million. Incredible number. It's a crazy number. We worked with a third-party research, Ipsos. We're going to publish the research later this year. But yeah, that's where we got that information from. And what we are seeing is, it's no surprise, game highlights, recaps are the most engaged with type of content.

3:21However, the fun part is after that, it's all bets are off. It comes down to could be anything from, you know, fans making reaction videos, predictions. It could be, you know, acting something out. There is no format that people aren't reacting to as fans around sports, which is also what is driving the ecosystem on the platform and why it's so different than anywhere else. Rich, you're relatively new to TikTok. So am I. I'm not embarrassed to say it. 45-year-old Dan Kaufman just got on TikTok recently. You joined over the summer, right? NBA, Summer League. I will not disclose that I joined TikTok.

3:59I'm on it. That's all I would say. I'm glad to be on it. Why did you join TikTok?

4:07Well, actually, it was something that was kind of communicated to me through my office. I work in the office with a lot of very young, cool people. And they encouraged me like, come on, Rich, get on TikTok. It's not what you think and different things like that. And so once I did get on and I was like, oh, this is cool. I have help. I had to help to get on, which was my first step. And then once I got on, once I do anything, my brain starts to work a little bit different. And so it was like, okay, how do I have more of a balanced attack at this? And the first TikTok I did was pretty much a questionnaire out to the fans, fan engagement, and answer some questions.

4:55And then we showed the bloopers of that, which was really cool. You know, look, I'm in a position now where I spent so much time taking myself so serious. You know, I'm trying to have a balanced attack with that, too, as well. Not to be, you know, not to take myself too serious at the end of the day. Obviously, my work day is what it is. But I think there's something cool about it, especially when you're doing things for the right reason and in the right way. And so I did basketball ones. I went on a live stream, TikTok, doing a charity baseball game for Darius Garland's foundation. It's been good.

5:34Did I see a lottery one recently? Yeah. And you know what? I got a lot of flack about it. Not a lot. Some people were like, you know, inquiring about certain things or suggesting that I don't need to play the Mega Millions or the Powerball. And I'm like, well, wait a minute. It's for everybody. It's not restricted to certain people. and you really don't know what I'm going to do with the money if and when I win. So you can't judge me prior to. And if you read my book, which you should all go out and buy the book Lucky Me, I actually grew up playing the lottery. Like that's how I actually learned math.

6:12And so it was a very authentic thing for me to do. People don't know I play the lottery all the time, especially when I get a hunch. Stay true to yourself. It's just something I've been doing for so many years anyway. I've been playing it a lot. But you know what, though? This is why this is interesting. Because you're talking about all the different ways you showed up, right? But TikTok is unlike other platforms because we are a content graph, not a social graph. It's not about who you follow or who follows you. It's about what content you're interested in, how you discover content. So someone might discover you not coming from the sports side.

6:44Maybe they just see, like maybe they're a lottery fan too. Yes. They have dreams, big dreams of opening hospitals and who knows what. And they literally see your video and then engage with it in that capacity and learn about you and then learn about sports. There's a whole way that this cascades or they find that behind the scenes bloopers. It's funny. It's silly. And they enjoy that. And then they continue to engage with more sports content. So the way that our platform is structured just really allows you to discover in a in a really interesting, creative way. And that's why it's great that you actually are posting different types.

7:16And originally, I thought it was for young kids. I really did. I was like, oh, that's a young, because my, I mean, my son is always on TikTok, my oldest son. And then when I realized like, oh no, because I asked a question on the live stream and they were like, no, like, and I was like, okay. Yeah, they're like, hey, we're 30. Yeah, there's an audience on there. And again, when I go places, I try to give people my time. My team would say, you give people too much of your time. But I try to always just answer questions somebody may have or whatnot. This is actually even better because it reached the masses.

7:54And again, going back to as long as you use it in the right way. Yeah, because my new best friend TikTok is. There you go. Yeah, my new best friend. I think the right way is interesting. And let's dive into a little bit more about what that right way is. I think certainly there's the fun content, the stuff that you want to use to make people laugh or maybe show a different side of you. But as I said at the outset, I saw you speak on stage at our Dealmakers Conference last year, which was a very serious conversation, a great conversation on sports business. And there were a couple of things I took away from that that I wanted to bring up with you.

8:23One is you said that you didn't love the term agent. You liked maybe representative, maybe, or explain a little more there. And then the second one, the second part of that is I also heard you talk about not being transactional, right? Like, so tell us more about that, how you approach that from a business perspective, and then we'll see how we can tie that into some. Yeah, I think just, again, I'm not just an agent, and I don't limit myself to that. I've built several companies. I've exited several companies. I'm a creative at heart. And so when you say the word agent, I always felt like it puts you in this box.

9:01And don't get me wrong. I think part of my journey as an agent has created a lot of the things that I have going for myself. and the company today, but I don't like to be boxed into that. And when you think agent also, you literally go to like transaction. You got to remember, being an agent, especially a sports agent, it wasn't really a sexy thing to be. I don't know, Jerry Maguire maybe? I mean, Jerry Maguire was a love story. True. But what I will say, it wasn't really like a cool thing. It was a very gray area situation. situation. And then I brought along something that did not exist amongst agents at all, which was a connectivity to culture.

9:52You know, you don't really know other agents and, you know, they've started putting their name in, you know, when they give information, things like that. for many years, everyone was off the record. I started going on the record because I'm like, why do I need a source? I am the source. And I want the message to be clear. That's not agenting. That is you really thinking from a total different space of what an agent would normally think about. An agent always thinking about what would I do wrong or right in this case and how that affects the next client or how that affects my relationship with, this team, et cetera.

10:36That's not how I think. And so representation is different. I think everyone needs representation. We all need it. TikTok needs it. We're open for business. TikTok, if you need it. And so I took on that idea of it and then expanded on it. So it wasn't a knock to agents. It was just like, I just don't want to be boxed in and consider myself an agent because because I'm not just doing a transaction at all. I'm very strategic about how things are done and why they're done. And within that, yes, there's a transaction that has a monetary gain to it. But ultimately, my decision is never gonna be made because of the monetary gain.

11:25That makes sense. Yes, for sure. There's one thing I wanted to ask you more about that you said. You said that you were able to go on record. Like you would go out and say something for your client as opposed to going to the media and saying, hey, I'm dropping this to you. You should go and report it. No, because I have accountability and I want to take accountability in that. And, you know, there was an article written on me and there was all anonymous people. And I'm like, well, you should just rip that up, shredded that one because we can't count that. And so I wanted to take on the accountability because we do play a role where there's the ups and downs of sports representation.

12:01and if I can be in the picture with you when you go number one, I can be in the fire with you when it's really hot and you have to be able to ride that. And so that's just always been my mentality and really, again, it's how I was raised. You know, we didn't get to make excuses in my house. How do you take that to your philosophy around your own personal TikTok but also about how you advise your athletes of how to use TikTok or social media? All social media, we try to advise the athletes to just be responsible. You know, I think athletes place a lot of things on social media for attention. And it's what type of attention, right?

12:43Because don't get me wrong, attention is a business. You know, there's definitely verticals of attention that you can monetize. But with that being said, for the athlete, it's a different dynamic because now your play and your social media behavior or whatnot, the character that you have while being on social media, all is rolled up into your value at this point. And so you have to be very careful as it pertains to that. But you can use the platform in different ways. Listen, I try to get them all the time to engage with fans, answer questions, show a little bit behind the scenes. You know, someone's social media page is perfect.

13:34That don't work either. Not authentic, right? No, it's not authentic. You got to show different things. People want to see that human side of you. And so it's just about your approach to it. And again, we don't have all the perfect answers, but if you approach it responsibly, I think you'll be in good shape. Vanessa, I'll flip it to you. Talk a little bit about how publishers and athletes are working together on TikTok to create content. Maybe follow along with a little bit of what Rich was talking about. Yeah. I mean, just to go off with the athlete side about the human side of things, we're in a stage of the world, of culture, of society, and with our platform where people want the real.

14:15We know what's polished. That's great for certain moments. That's not a bad thing. But athletes opening up, they're already iconic figures doing things that most people can't do. it's really magic when you get to see the person behind that whether they like to cook or whether you know they're just like got a sick fit that's exciting for people so again it's great to encourage that just be yourself just maybe a slightly reined in version sometimes um when it comes to publishers on the ecosystem like we know that 19 out of 25 of our most followed like biggest publisher accounts are sports. That's how big.

14:5119 out of 25? 19 out of 25. So, again, they're all functioning differently. They're all posting in different ways. Some are more meme-driven that are really fun, and some are like the highlights, as we said, go really far. But they are so crucial to this content ecosystem. We're going to have like the athletes and the publishers or the partners from the professional side of things are almost like the, you know, the environment that then the heartbeat comes from the fans and it comes from the ecosystem and those conversations. We have to have both. They work together. They have an affinity. There's an affinity there.

15:29We cannot have one without the other. So it's really important that when we look at what publishers bring or partners bring, I'm talking about like, you know, NBA so-and-so, they are bringing also a credibility that is really, really important, right? So again, when we talk about that content graph, when you see something show up and it's from a trusted source, you're already more leaned in. And then you engage in a certain way that then can go even further too. I believe every team should have someone streaming every game. They should build a strategy around this. They should have someone on TikTok.

16:07They should build a strategy around TikTok for every single game that's played for their team. And every team should hire this person. They really should. Because your audience varies in terms of what's important to them, what age they are, different things like that. You can no longer depend just on linear. And yes, we just did a TV deal and we cut up the different packages and you got them on Amazon and you have it on NBC. But guess what? there's still millions of kids that's not watching neither of those things. Right. But who's the audience that we're capturing on TikTok? I won't say the other platforms for the sake of I'm at TikTok today, but ultimately I would literally put a strategy around TikTok and I would have meetings, you know, biweekly, go over the schedule.

17:06What is our strategy? um you know what some of the content we're trying to capture all these you can interview somebody like i would be interviewing a general manager or the coach and the the it actually writes itself because every game something happens and then there's a lead-up there's a big game there's a storyline etc you got the throwbacks like i would use tiktok to educate young men and women that don't know the history of my current team, especially in small markets. Like if I'm a small market team, I'm using TikTok to better educate the youth. So now as you're trying to grow the fan, oh, it may make them want to know more about the Milwaukee Bucks, know more about the Indiana Pacers.

17:57And like something as simple as, do you know why the team is called the Milwaukee Bucks? I do not. This is what I'm saying. But this is what I'm saying. This is a very simple thing to do. Pay somebody, and for me being their representation, pay them six figures and with a great bonus package. I will do that job for you, sir. And have them build out this strategy, I'm telling you. That's where it's going to have to go. Some partners, some of these people, they're thinking this way, but like broadcasters, and they are very protective of what they've got, which makes sense. But going forward, we always talk about TikTok is not cannibalizing broadcast.

18:40We're like sitting alongside. Yeah. Right. We all know you're watching it. You're watching it in a variety of ways. You're commenting. You're taking part. It's a different way that people are engaging. Like you said, some people are only engaging via social media with sports. And like plus one to the idea of networks or leagues or whatever, having so much access to such a wide variety of storytelling that they can share. Sports is a never ending cycle of new things that you can draw from and pull from. There's always new players. There's always the draft. There's always the game that just happened.

19:15There's also the offseason, which we don't see a drop off with a lot of sports. women's sports in particular like women are still engaged with that stuff happening even in the offseason bringing in history bringing more fulsome it's gonna it's all this is just better for the sport for the industry and i think that's the part where we can do our part you can do your part and we are encouraging our partners of course like share as much as you can it's a different game now it's just not not closed off like we were before i just thought of something really good i can't disclose but i'm working on i'm working on something we need to put a little idea episode.

19:49But I think TikTok should be the exclusive partner for this particular thing that I'm, that I'm working on. I just thought about this. We're around when you're ready to announce that. Yeah. You let us know. You let us know. This is a really good conversation. Great conversation. Let's dive a little more into it. And I think what we're getting at, or at least partially what we're getting at is that through social media, through TikTok, you bring in more fans that might not be the hardcore fan that wants to watch the full three-hour game. There's also the whole aspect of culture and music and entertainment and fashion that we had an entire conference on earlier this year.

20:29Talk a little bit about how that plays into it, how we can bring a fan into the sports ecosystem who is a fan because they like the outfit that the athlete wore. I mean, Richard, I'm going to talk about this for four hours now. Please. Well, let's go. But so first things first, culture, sports, hello, right? When we look at the major culture drivers in the world from sports to music to fashion, those all show up on TikTok in that way. That's why this is the moment, right? This is the moment because you can come in because you see a tunnel walk and you see the fit. Or you can come in because you saw Ellie the elephant and you're a dancer, right?

21:04You can intersect in a variety of ways. when you come in, it then slowly starts to understand what you're maybe interested in and serve up things that carry on. The piece around the impact of culture right now around everything has a place within the culture and also recognizing where the culture comes from, where 99 % of everything that is driving culture is coming from a certain subsect of the community and being able to have that visibility, being able to like anchor it. And it's the opportunities for your athletes have to be second to none with whether it's them engaging with, you know, fashion or where they travel to, where they eat, you know, what they do.

21:47We care. We have, we have, you know, chefs on the platform who are professional chefs for athletes, and they're just sharing what they cook for an athlete. That in itself opens up a conversation to people who are home cooks, people who are just trying to find like maybe meal prep, people who are fans of that athlete people i may cook on the platform one day i would love to what's your signature well it depends what's the signature dish i don't really have one what do you like to eat are you what do you what are you cooking up some soul food like what are we talking about here i'm not the biggest soul food guy okay i'll be honest i've eaten too much soul food in my life to focus there uh but that may be a good content i'm telling you this is my point you mix up what people expect from you and you by the way you can be cooking and dropping gems about business right be like you know what as I shake this salt it reminds me of the time the black Martha Stewart I'm telling you there it's infinite what can be done there yeah I'm getting ready listen break it down I may do it no I think she's right I think look when you think about sporting events just in general it encompasses everything music fashion obviously the sport of it, the fandom of it all.

23:03Huge. And I know when I'm going to a game, there is levels to it as it pertains. I'm thinking about everything. I'm thinking about which watch I'm going to wear. First, I start everything with my watch. Of course. First thing, I've been on this all-black kick lately, so that's been pretty simple. And then, you know, you got the footwear aspect of it. Yeah. Where I'm sitting. Right. What time do I actually want to get there? And then... How are you getting there? How are you rolling out of the whip? Am I going to drive or be driven? Or am I going to ride with someone else, depending on what happens afterwards, what time...

23:42You know, there's a lot of different things to it. And then after all that, there's the game. Then there's the game. There's the game. Do I get there early? Do I have somebody to talk to, et cetera? And you'd be surprised what type of conversations come out of a nice sweater. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. a certain watch, certain pair of shoes, you know, a jacket. So that fashion rules, like you cannot get around that. And then there's the actual game of it all. And I'm at a game and I'm watching it. I always tell people, don't go to the game with me. I'm the worst person to go to the game with and sit next to.

24:19Because? Because I'm not going to pay any attention to you. You know, because the game's going on. You will be alone. next to me. Is this across sports? Like any sport? Well, for sure basketball, not as much football because football doesn't have courtside seats. But what I'm saying is I'm watching a different game than you. So I may be talking to a client with my eyes. I may see something and we may, we may talk about it between quarters at halftime, making adjustments, different things like that. Because, again, I'm not one of these highlight box score type of representation figures. Like, I actually know the game of basketball.

25:00I watch the game of basketball refusiously. And I'm also not afraid to tell a client if they're out there, you know, lollygagging, being very laissez-faire about things. And so when I'm at a game, it's just different for me. It really is. But again, it's like sports is so much more than just the game. Oh, yeah. We used to say that, you know, in fashion, like it's not just about the lipstick. It's about the woman wearing the lipstick or it's about the right. It's about the persons. And these are like there's so much around the spectacle. I think lipstick is an art. We are about to start a whole new.

25:40Welcome to the beauty podcast. Lipstick as an art. No, I mean, for real. Have you ever watched a woman put on lipstick? Thank you. You're absolutely right. It's equivalent. Thank you. It's a barber giving you a lineup. Yeah. Yeah. It's the most. You can contour, shade. You can do it any hand. If I, I mean. If we tried, in other words. Okay, that's your first TikTok. We worked through lipstick shades. No, I can't do, listen. But I used to watch my mom put on her lipstick. And she can actually tell you what to do while putting, she can tell you, go get that out of the refrigerator while putting the lipstick on.

26:11Get the chicken out of the freezer. It is a work of art. I'm not going to lie. But the point is like, that's the thing. All of these pieces that can seem trivial are not at all. They're huge parts of how we view each other, how society engages with each other, like how, you know, beauty as a spectrum obviously has major implications. Sports, what we see, how we see ourselves in a sport, how we see, like you said, how are people showing up in that sport? Are they someone that could really truly be a role model or are they someone who's an entertainer? We have all those things going on too. Okay.