Tom Hill: the INEOS Grenadiers CCO on how he signed a €100m AI sponsorship

0:03Hello and welcome to the Leaders Worth Knowing podcast, the sports industry show from Leaders where we talk to the people worth knowing in the business of sport this week. I'm James Emmett, the editorial director here at Leaders and on the show this week, Tom Hill, who is the chief commercial officer at the Ineos Grenadiers cycling team, although as of this coming weekend, It's the net company Ineos cycling team. Tom, fresh off the back of signing a reported 100 million euro title sponsorship deal with Danish tech and AI company, net company. A big old deal in the cycling industry. So great to have Tom fresh in from a big commercial success.

0:57We talked about the deal, what it means for the team, what it means for the sport in general, against the context of an always challenging commercial ecosystem in cycling. So we talk about that, what needs to change, what the unique aspects of sports marketing, sports commercialization are in cycling. Tom is a storied executive with a background across multiple sports. I think I first encountered Tom well over a decade ago when I interviewed him on stage at a conference when he was at Manchester United. He was in charge of multiple commercial units across an almost 10 year career at Manchester United.

1:47Before that, he was at Saracens and the RFU. He went on to work as the chief commercial officer at World Rugby for four and a half years and joined INEOS cycling team in June 2024. 2024. So as the first grand tour of this year's cycling season kicks off in a few days time, the Giro d 'Italia, here is Tom Hill, the Chief Commercial Officer of Ineos Grenadiers. Fantastic. So Mr. Tom Hill, thank you very much for coming down here to our Wimbledon studio. Tom, you're the chief commercial officer at... Now, has the team name changed now? Because what I'm reading here is Ineos Grenadiers cycling team.

2:39Tom Hill:Yeah. But I believe we might have to change your LinkedIn profile. Absolutely. Yeah. As of 8th May, start the Giro. Yeah. Different look, feel, name. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So it's not often, Tom, that we have someone as a guest on the podcast come down here to the studio fewer than 24 hours after announcing potentially one of the biggest deals in your career. Certainly one of the biggest deals that's been signed in cycling for some time. A reported 100 million euro five-year deal that Ineos has signed as a co-title partner with Netcompany, not an organisation that I'm familiar with. Indeed. We'll go into that, Tom.

3:29But first of all, how are you feeling? You must be chuffed a bit.

3:32Tom Hill:Yeah, delighted. Obviously, it's relatively old news for us, but new news for the world. You signed it a little while ago, but it was launched publicly yesterday, 28th of April. It was indeed. Launched yesterday in London with the CEO of Netcompany. So it's a transformational day for the team. We've never had a first name co-titled partner before. And so this is new ground for Ineos Grenadiers. So, yeah, we're absolutely delighted. And it's a true partnership. And we'll get into that more. But, yeah, it's fantastic news. And it's really going to be able to help us transform the way we approach performance.

4:18Tom Hill:Yeah. Right. Let's get stuck into the deal itself, the dynamics of how it came about, who Net Company are, what objectives they have, what it allows you to do. So how would you, first of all, how would you describe the deal? What is it? so most teams in in pro cycling have two title sponsors so first name and second name partners like little trek yeah for example so net company is now the first name co-title partner of the team so previously we were inios grenadiers we're now going to be called net company inios um so they're the first name partner of the team so they have first name naming rights significant branding visibility on the jersey in an equal deal alongside Ineos.

5:10Tom Hill:Ineos still own the team. Ineos bought it off Sky back in 2019. So Ineos are the owners of the business and Net Company are our significant sponsor and partner. They get the branding. Well, what is Net Company, first of all, and how did you sort of bring them in? Yeah. So if we go back to the sort of the beginning uh ineos have never had a chief commercial officer before ineos grenadier's cycling team and so i joined the team just under two years ago with a with a view to right ineos is funding the team in its in its entirety and we'll get on to sort of how commercials of cycling teams work but they're funding it in its entirety and they ultimately wanted to increase the budget so that they are able to compete with the other major teams for for riders and for success so So they created a chief commercial role, said, right, we want to release some of the assets that INEOS currently have in terms of naming rights and branding and create an opportunity to have a co-titled partner.

6:09Tom Hill:So I joined the business. We created a plan, a strategy. We appointed Sport5 as our agency partner to support with resource and execution. We identified the rights, the assets. We built the plan, the go-to-market plan, the sales decks, et cetera. And then we understood what were the key things that we had that other teams didn't, and ultimately what were the key aspects of a partnership that would be resonating with a brand. We put all those together and went to market, and the signing and launch of Netcompany is ultimately the end result of a well-executed and well-laid-out plan, start to finish.

6:44So that's how we went about it.

6:48Tom Hill:Net Company are a Danish IT company, a European IT company. Key markets for them are Germany and a huge market is the UK. So they were looking for a British team and being the only British team in the peloton, that resonated with them. The naming rights resonated with them as well because they're looking for brand awareness because they appreciate that not everybody's heard of them. But they have superb technology and superb platforms. They already operate in the IT, AI space. And their main business currently with a software called Pulse, they run airports. So they ensure that airports are efficient.

7:28Tom Hill:They've also won business with London Heathrow. So they're running Heathrow. And they're also managing the border control between Northern Ireland and Europe. So they're a huge IT company and they're looking to win more business, but ultimately get more customers through being more well known. And they identified cycling being a very European centric sport as being the way to go. Yeah. You talk about the position on the jersey, the sort of lead title partner. I wonder what other rights and assets Net Company are getting that you can talk about. I noted in the launch yesterday, Dave Brailsford, who has returned as the, is he the team principal now?

8:16Yeah, and also the director of performance sport for Ineos. Yeah. He mentioned, not necessarily specifically, but he was talking about advances in AI and how they could be brought to bear potentially in cycling to e-cout performance gains. Is the company's software being integrated into sort of operation of the team? Yeah.

8:38Tom Hill:And that was absolutely a key part of the deal. So rather it being, yes, we get naming rights, we get branding, we can place our logo here. they really wanted to showcase their capability with their technology and cycling is the perfect platform for that because cycling probably is very close to equivalency of f1 with regards to the amount of data there is yeah every every crank of the pedal every heartbeat etc every turn of the wheel is measured in training and in and in live racing and so there's a huge amount and dave referred to it as sort of the blizzard of data that's coming at us that we have to try and see through yeah and at the moment we have a large number of sort of different pieces of data coming into the ds in the car who's sort of running the race and and directing the riders um but they're all incomplete and so sometimes for example uh the broadcast feed may be delayed by 20 or 30 seconds so if you're making a decision on do you chase down the brake or not you can't be making your decision 30 seconds at a time because the moment's gone so there's many many different sort of incomplete sets of data that we're currently using to help inform decisions and so net company are able to help us collate all of that information and put it into a sort of single platform or dashboard to aid the human making the decision in in real time and they are delighted to be able to help us with performance but also showcase their tech to prospective customers as well um you have been a senior commercial figure on the right side of sport for some time now tom um working across lots of different sports rugby football in particular um and now cycling i would imagine that you have done thousands of of deals in your career um probably thousands of partnership of sponsor-type partnerships.

10:34And I'm sure there are elements of all of them that you look on fondly. But I wonder with this one in particular, what aspects of either the end result or the process you're particularly proud of or that give you most satisfaction? I think the firm belief in what we had was premium

10:56Tom Hill:with regards to naming rights. These were assets that had never been on the market before. So we had a new property. This wasn't replacing somebody. So that was a key focus. We also knew the power of the proposition with regards to what we had was compelling. And also that the sport of cycling provides, unlike again, F1, who we tend to bump up against in the process with regards to either sort of access or the technology space, that cycling is actually quite a sort of clean piece of blank piece of paper with regard to technology. And with all of that data, we focused on the tech sector because we knew it was an opportunity.

11:37Tom Hill:And so that focus then with the discussions with Netcompany really sort of cemented our belief that, yes, this is a great opportunity for a tech brand and it's a perfect platform to do it. Plus it's authentic integration. It's not just badging. And so being able to integrate that showcase and showcase that technology really meant that it was a proper partnership than just swapping logos for cash. And also net companies understanding of cycling meant that we weren't having to educate them on how it worked. They knew that they're a very, very savvy and very well educated business in terms of knowing cycling.

12:18Tom Hill:So you already on the front foot rather than having to sort of. And I think that's the difference between perhaps selling other sports is other sports is probably a wider general understanding or belief of understanding about how the sport works. And, yeah, I don't need to go to see a football match. I get it. But with cycling in the process, there was a lot more sort of education and informing to be done about how it works and why it's popular and what the broadcast reach is and how this could work. and so when you find an enthusiast or a sort of a champion within a business who understands it you've really got to sort of hone in on that and and i think with cycling when you when you have somebody who understands what it can deliver that's really really sort of a game changer rather than trying to say no no this is how it works no the guy at the front isn't necessarily going to win etc etc yeah i do think there's something about cycling i think it's probably unique in all of sport in that it is on the one hand an incredibly i believe an incredibly powerful sponsorship proposition certainly at the top level with lots of usps and um and positive things going for it that is restricted and at sometimes undermined on the other hand by a precarious business model um that really indeed almost 100 relies on sponsors there's nowhere else to go for revenue.

13:47And it's that kind of, yeah, real double-edged sword, which probably results in a little bit of kind of desperation in sales processes sometimes, right? It is absolutely critical to get the funding through sponsorship. Taking a step back from the net company deal, even from Ineos team, could you explain broadly the business model behind a top-level cycling team? at a very broad brush level. Sure. How much money, roughly, ballpark, do you need to operate a top-level team? Where's that coming from?

14:20Tom Hill:So there's quite a variety or bandwidth of budgets, but the top teams roughly will be operating on around 40, 50 million euros a year. You have a roster of 30 riders and you're racing for 200, 250 days plus a year. And you may be racing in more than one race at a time with different teams in different races. So, and just to give an example, our team in totality is about 130 people. So 30 riders. Riders and staff, yeah. And then the rest of that 90 % are effectively, their daily task is to help that bike go faster through nutrition, data, aero, performance, strength and conditioning, et cetera.

15:06Tom Hill:And yes, and as part of our sort of research as we were putting together a proposition, we identified that 94 % of the income for teams comes from sponsorship. There's very little in addition to that, maybe a small amount of merchandise, maybe a small amount of race fees or fees from winning. But after that, you may have, again, a small amount of income from, say, team hospitality or experiences that you're selling for fans to come and join your team on race. But you are so reliant on that sponsorship revenue or having a backer or a number of partners to enable you to even get to the start line.

15:52Tom Hill:And you use the word precarious and it's true, it's a fragile environment because all of the broadcast money, for example, that is made from the Tour de France isn't distributed through the teams. So if it's costing you 50 million to get to the start line to enter the biggest race of the year in the Tour, you're not necessarily generating anything from the wider commercial popularity of that event. Besides the fact that it is essential in your sponsorship proposition, I would suppose. Yes, between 50 to 75 % of your sort of annual brand visibility or value for your partners comes from the Tour de France.

16:30Tom Hill:Obviously, there's the other two Grand Tours, the Giro d 'Italia and the Vuelta, la Vuelta. But yes, so you have to be present to enter that race. to be able to return for your partners. And in terms of sort of guaranteeing your participation in all the Grand Tours, but, you know, particularly the Tour de France, what does that require? That's a World Tour licence, is it? That's right. So as a pro team, we have a UCI World Tour licence. And those are granted on sort of multi-year basis? That's right. Yes, indeed. Okay. Yeah. Right. And so, you know, we don't own a stadium. Yeah. You know, we don't own land.

17:07Tom Hill:We don't own anything like a traditional sports team that's based in a venue. So, yes, we have rider contracts. We own bikes. We own buses and vehicles. And we have a world tour license. But yes, there's, you know, talking about sort of the world of equity, etc. What are you actually investing in? Those are your sort of your key tools in your bag, really. Yeah. And what would you, again, sort of referencing your career in the past working across rugby and football and in other sports in general, what would you pinpoint as the unique challenges in cycling? I think in terms of the product, it's obviously very different to say football or tennis because there's no stadia.

17:58Tom Hill:And so the big races last three weeks. You're moving every day. So it's very logistically challenging for a team. The guys are used to it on the road. And I take my hat off to them in terms of how dedicated they are, how much time they spend away going from stage to stage to stage for days and weeks on end. And then, you know, every night it's clean, the bikes get ready, prep next day. In addition, of course, to the riders. It's ultimately a very dangerous sport. If you think about the speeds that some of these guys and women are achieving in some of the downhill ascents. Yes, they're wearing a helmet, but they've got a small layer of lycra between them and the road.

18:40Tom Hill:And it's an incredibly dangerous sport. and also it's very unique with if you think about some of the major climbs for example in in the tour you can have a million plus people on the side of the road and they're narrowing the sort of the size of the route that you have as the riders are climbing and they are within touching distance and you know occasionally there's instances of people throwing things or flags getting caught in chain sets etc so it's an incredibly unique environment in terms of the proximity to the audience um that makes it that makes it very unique but also there's so many elements such as the weather the terrain obviously the steepness of the of the slope or the or the ascent um but an individual's fitness the team strategy um crashes the team budget there's there's so many elements there that some are within your control uh and some aren't um so you know yes there's challenges and also you know there's equally opportunities there yeah but that makes it that makes it very different and commercially as we've touched on it it's a very very different model yeah you know nobody's buying a ticket to watch the tour you know so there's 12 15 million who are watching the tour over the three weeks but but nobody's buying a ticket to stand on the roadside so commercially yes it's it's very difficult sticking with that commercial bit and and trying to zero in on the the differences you know when when you joined the team you looked at the proposition you you you said you sort of built out what the offering is you brought in sport five uh to help you get there i wonder about the mechanics of sports marketing in general when people talk about the sports industry yes we're talking about rights holders but we're talking probably mainly about multiple servicing agencies that help the sports industry exist and i i wonder whether what your experience was of sort of dealing with that side of the industry when you came into cycling in that money's a lot tighter in cycling as you say there's no ticketing revenue there's no broadcasting revenue that you can access anyway do agencies and service providers treat you differently as a result is it harder for them the proposition for sport five go out there and find us a title partner um i think i think each sport has its challenges which is a bit of a bland answer i guess but um because sponsors are such a key element of a team's makeup yeah um it's yes it's it's a tough market um and so you know traditionally you've got endemic brands being involved in in cycling or you've got brands who are very sort of patriotic or nationalistic in terms of they're a Dutch team or they're a French team and therefore we're going to partner with them.

21:33Tom Hill:So we stood apart a little bit in that regard. But I think currently there's seven teams looking for co-title partners in the market with a varying price tag on that. So again, we're not the only show in town here. So you've got to set your stall out differently to ensure that you're attractive. It's a very European-based sport because we predominantly race in Europe. We race in Australia and North America and China too, but the majority of the time is in races in Europe. And so understanding your marketplace and where you can deliver most value, agencies have to understand what are you dealing in, what's your sort of your currency with regards to Europe.

22:18Tom Hill:So I wouldn't say they treated you differently, but they've also got to have an understanding of how cycling operates. You can't just turn your hand from cricket to cycling and think it's the same brands. And so I think what Sport5 did a very good job of was understanding what we needed, what we didn't need, which sectors were of value or of most interest. And with the European spread of their offices they have, we really were able to get under the skin with them. And that didn't come instantly, But that, I think, is a key difference. And not many people have brands who are wanting cycling in their portfolio, waiting for an opportunity.

23:00Tom Hill:And I think that comes back to that educational piece about what cycling offers in terms of its authenticity, its opportunity for storytelling, the proximity you can get to for your hosting and entertaining in terms of being involved in it. And also, I think the price point differs from other sports and therefore it gives that opportunity for more budget to be spent on the storytelling piece. You mentioned earlier that one of the differences between rugby, football, probably mainly football and cycling is in the need usually to educate potential partners as to what exactly it is they're buying into, which I presume, you know, slows the process down.

23:46down that's that's a that's an extra cog that you have to go through in your um you know pipeline management i suppose um what is the process for warming up a prospect what type of conversations do you have with potential partners what are you showing them to get them excited you talk about wanting to differentiate the team as well from competitors what aspects are you showing them like this is a potentially very valuable proposition for you?

24:19Tom Hill:I think the history, the heritage and the success that Ineos Grenadiers have had stands out in terms of seven previous Tour de France wins and no other team has achieved that. So you're able to be very succinct and very direct with the success the team's had and our view for Mission 8, which Dave Brailsford has coined in terms of winning an eighth. He loves a title. he doesn't but it does i must say it does focus it does galvanize yeah absolutely and we're all very clear on what mission 8 is and what part we have every day about how we're going to impact performance so it's very good um i think one of the the key ways to be able to show not tell is to invite people to a race yeah come and see it because that is the best way for people to and netflix has done a very good job with unchained to be able to get behind the scenes and show what's happened, but that's looking backwards.

25:14Tom Hill:But bringing somebody on race, and if they can get in a race car and follow a rider in a time trial or be in a race on a stage, et cetera. Again, we touched on earlier, perhaps sailing is the only other sport where you are able to be in the race rather than watching it. And we found time and time again, people come and say, I thought I knew, but wow, this is amazing. Wouldn't it be great if I could bring? And so that's probably one of the strongest opportunities we have in the locker. In addition to this is how many markets it's in, 190 broadcast markets, your brand is visible three to five hours a day, etc.

25:52Tom Hill:The proof points, etc. But I think that emotional piece, the authenticity of cycling and the proximity you can get to it is really what sets it apart, I think, from others. Just thinking about how you do that, just in the timeline, the calendar of events in cycling. Clearly, the tour is premium, right? You're probably activating a lot of your deals during the tour. The riders and the performance team are serious in that point as well. And they probably don't want that much kind of commercial activity to interfere with what they're doing, I'm presuming. but are you sort of using particular races earlier you know early or late in the season to kind of introduce prospects to yes i think because we're racing in so many different places yeah there are a lot of opportunities geography plays a part right well sometimes well actually i'm over in poland or i'm in belgium etc you know so uh paris nice etc or paris-roubaix whatever may be a great race for me or the one day races are great to be able to see more actions so there's plenty of opportunities yeah um rather than it being yes you must come to the tour and don't worry about everything else yeah uh and again there's better access in some of the other races and the tours a bit crazy etc so you're yes you're using every touch point throughout the season for for doing that um but i mean in addition to to net company we also announced two other partners last week um wtw insurance partner and they are very keen to use the races in the middle east for hosting prospects and existing partners so they've identified in addition to europe the middle east is a place where we are going to be very present um and so they're keen to do that and then our other partner cafe de colombia who are making a return to cycling haven't been involved a number of years ago are going to be using it with access to content around riders they're based in colombia they're not going to be bringing many guests over from colombia physically but it's that access to riders which are going to be doing on non-race days as well so you've got to utilize that full season rather than put pressure on yourself when you're actually trying to win a race yeah by then having all of that sitting on your shoulders in terms of uh being a bit of a bottleneck as the most senior commercial um exec at the team how are you how are you finding the buy-in to the commercial side of the organization from the performance side obviously dave is a fantastic uh person to kind of yoke the two together but you know maybe even thinking back to your experience in football where football players are not universally acknowledged um to be that helpful um during commercial discussions or activation are the riders generally more into the idea of singing for their supper 100 percent um and not necessarily sort of singing for their supper but more you know they are delighted that partners want to be associated with the team want to support the team financially they understand the importance of that of that of that contract or partnership and they're engaged keen to know more and want to be involved so you're not having to find somebody who's reluctantly shuffling their feet to attend something you know they want to understand why many of our riders speak multiple languages so they can potentially converse with partners in their mother tongue as well so no we we don't we don't have any problem with uh engaging riders and equally you know they're always asking the team have you done that piece of content yet because i want to post it out on my socials and so you know their amplification is equally far bigger than the team so no they are 100 % involved.

29:43Tom Hill:And I think having not had a major partner before with Ineos as the owner who had the assets, they weren't necessarily activating in every single race. So the team, by no fault of its own, has not necessarily had to activate on races with a partner in attendance. And so they appreciate we need to do more. How do we do it? what's the best way to do it but everybody's leaning in in a positive way not oh god here comes a sponsor tut they're only going to get in the way yeah absolutely the other way around yeah and so when you turn up on race people are doing things for you and the guests that you wouldn't expect and it's the small things that make a big difference yeah about well i've already prepared you a sandwich or i've got you a coffee or no no come here under the umbrella or whatever tiny things right but they're all leaning in because they understand you're a fabric and part of the team not can you stand over there and keep out the way please yeah um you mentioned the netflix uh documentary unchained is it that's what it's called um and clearly that's a big deal a big deal um for cycling and for aso to allow that to to happen and for this and all the teams to get on board and um allow that kind of behind the scenes footage i wonder what you make of kind of breakthrough stardom in cycling it seems to me that um it is another challenge that cycling has that there aren't necessarily the weight of numbers in recognizable universal sort of figures breakthrough athletes who carry a sport um where other sports might might have them football obviously there's plenty of global stars is this well first of all do you agree with that assessment and do you feel like there is something are riders challenged to push themselves towards that kind of thing the quality of talent and and the and the number of riders who are who are emerging or coming through um basically the age is is getting younger it's not my area of expertise by any shot but but you know we have we have superb young riders like Oscar only, um, and Kevin vocal coming through.

32:05Tom Hill:Um, you know, we had time and who won two stages in the tour last year. Um, these guys are coming through and the, and the level of talent is incredible. And of course you've got Tane Bogacá at the moment who is, who is by far, um, the dominant force. Yeah, absolutely. and winning many, many races. But we can either go out and buy Bogacá or we can develop our own talent and enhance and nurture and get the best. And as Sir Dave calls it, this is about human endeavor and about getting the best out of these individual riders to the best of their ability. I think fans are underserved in terms of the sort of fan engagement in cycling.

32:54Tom Hill:And I think there's a lot more that can be done there in terms of, again, educating the audience or providing them because you're super serving a small audience at the moment with the sort of techie stuff about what's and what chain ring and they were, etc. But I think there's a greater depth of opportunity there around riders and getting them to become more understood in terms of household names. and again you know that falls on us as a as a team as other teams but also with with broadcasters as well to go beyond who's in first place and what's the gap of the breakaway what have you learned about the sport since you since you jumped in um just under two years ago anything particularly surprised you or or challenged you i think just the caliber of talent within the team from mechanics to S &C to nutrition to aero to the DSs, the coaches, etc.

33:56Tom Hill:Obviously, the talent of the riders, but just everything. They're serious performance people, aren't they? Absolutely. You know, everybody in our sort of performance team, we've got degrees or PhDs plus in terms of expertise and understanding. And of course, other teams in other sports will have similar, but just the calibre of talent that we have within the team. And I also think that just the passion and the dedication from the wider team who are all leaning in to do the right thing to get there is incredible. Given that it's such a tough environment physically, every day whatever the weather you're out eat sleep repeat live out of a suitcase for weeks on time never staying in the same bed twice etc it is it is grueling and demanding and just i take my hats off to those guys and girls who are on race because it is it is a it's relentless um but also on the on the flip side it it's just terrific to see that sort of team spirit across the sport of cycling, helping another team with, they might be missing a spanner, or if somebody's bikes get nicked, et cetera, what can we do to help?

35:13Tom Hill:Or on a climb, if a rider of another team is clearly struggling in the heat, do you want a bottle of water, fella? And it happens. And just that team spirit of just how can we help? Because we know one day we're going to be in that situation. And those sort of human stories, and it just, there's so many things that go unsaid and unseen, but you just get this feeling of we're all in this together. Yeah. yeah talk about the tour um for a little bit if we may um you know it's the most visible sort of representation of the sport i would say and and is the thing that transcends into a general audience um and again i think it's another double-edged sword thing in cycling right it's a glorious beautiful unique compelling sporting proposition but in business terms it's got a stranglehold over cycling you know aso is the the owner of that event monetizes it mainly through media rights and sponsorship doesn't allow the teams to share in that monetization and gives pretty paltry prize money to the teams but everybody's got to be in the tour it's absolutely central to you know the proposition that you're working on that being the case what's your what's your view on the on the tour what's so great and also so uh you know challenging i suppose about about the tour well and the way it's run yeah i mean arguably it's the biggest sports event on the planet yeah right with with that many people coming to watch there's millions every year yeah On average, a million people per day watching a stage, some more at weekends on some of the big climbs.

36:58Tom Hill:And so over the course of the three weeks, 12 to 15 million people are going to be watching the event for free. So it's incredible in its appeal. And I remember as a child watching it on TV, watching individuals and just thinking this is crazy. This is incredible, right? How do I get to stand on the side of the road? You see these people dressed as devils chasing individuals with face paint, you know, head to foot, whatever. And so it's nutty, but it's also so compelling. But there's so many stories in terms of both joy and heartache from individuals who may be doing well, but one crash, one flat tire, et cetera, changes the dynamic totally.

37:41Tom Hill:And so it's something I've grown up with from a distance. so it's incredible but yes if you look at the sort of the economics and the commercial structure of it it it does make the sport one lopsided that teams can't afford to participate because they need to give the team sponsors a value but ultimately the sort of the reward and therefore i think on the riders there's sort of there was an imbalance in terms of risk and reward for putting their physical safety on the line to win the event when ultimately there's no return or no sort of general upside for teams. And so there's been discussions and there's been a project called One Cycling with regards to how do we align the season?