Gillian Zucker's Blueprint for Modern Sports Entertainment

0:00That's the most amazing thing about this building. I describe it in Steve Ballmer terms, which is the building itself is a piece of hardware. And the way that it operates inside is a piece of software. And it changes literally every day. So, you know, this entire summer we're working on how do we make people's jaws drop when they come in and they see this halo board, which they saw all out of last year. But it does things that they could have never imagined. Hi, everyone. Welcome to Leadership Next, the podcast about the people and trends that are shaping the future of business. I'm Diane Brady, and I'm Kristen Stoller.

0:33Kristen, this week, go Clippers. We have Gillian Zucker. Yes, you and I met her at our COO Summit in Scottsdale, Arizona. Sweltering Scottsdale. Very hot June day, 107 degrees. She spoke with me on stage before we did this interview in front of our attendees. Rubber chicken in hand. She has. That was in the green room. She came out to me and said, can I bring this rubber chicken that makes noise on stage? And can I also bring this drink cup that is a sound maker? I cleared it with our sound people and they said yes. So we got that experience. That was a loud cup. And I have to say, this is one of the most tech savvy organizations.

1:10Of course, Balmer being the former CEO of Microsoft, you would expect no less, but incredible what that stadium has. Yeah, it's, really cool. The tech is amazing. I'm sure having a boss like Steve Ballmer is a little intimidating. She beat out 30 candidates, I might add, for that role. But on stage, she was telling me, and what I thought was a little Big Brother creepy, but I also could see the appeal, is they can track the decibel level of every fan down to the individual seat. So if you're screaming the loudest, Diane, you might get a seat upgrade. You might get a freebie. Who knows? And you thought facial recognition was cool.

1:45Yes, now they can track your voice. Look, I think it's incredible what they're doing. It's The Wall, as they call it. We'll hear more about that from her. I will say that Jaylon, who many of the viewers and listeners don't get to see every week, but is the brains behind this. She's working the camera as we speak. She and I went to a game at Madison Square Garden. Very different, of course, in terms of where its technology is. And it was a game that the Clippers won. So the experience of being in a Knicks-heavy stadium with Gillian Zucker, I will talk to her about that as well. Oh, please. Yeah, as a Mets season ticket holder, we need all of the insights on what we can do with our stadiums here in New York.

2:29What I enjoyed about our conversation in Scottsdale, I have to say, is I think the way that she views sports as a business, clearly it is a huge business right now, But the way that they talk about customer engagement, the way they're using data and AI, I mean, there really are lessons far beyond the world of sports. And often, I have to admit my bias, I've often thought of sports teams as a vanity project for billionaires. This felt like a very professional organization and one that is really positioning itself for the future. Yeah, and doing a lot of experiments. They're tracking what food items are selling at each game to make real-time decisions about what fans actually want.

3:07Let me guess. Great discussion. Hot dogs, yes. Great discussion, lots to talk about, and you'll hear it all when you come right back. As technology and AI continue to reshape industries, hiring for technical skills remains important, but fostering creativity, curiosity, and empathy are also essential for organizations to remain competitive and resilient. We're here with Jason Garzadas, the CEO of Deloitte US, and the sponsor of this podcast, Jason, always good to see you. Thanks for joining us. Thank you for having me, Diane. So, Jason, how can organizations balance the development of human skills and technical skills to drive innovation?

3:49It is a tech-driven world, but still human skills matter. And I think it comes down to being intentional for leading organizations to still invest and have very directed strategies around building human skills. is curiosity, imagination, how to team. These are still critical ingredients to creating differentiation and competitive advantage. At Deloitte, we've committed to building those skills and have, over time, evolved our programming. Jason, could you say, at Deloitte, what role really does apprenticeship play in fostering a culture of continuous learning and development? It's interesting.

4:31There was some, I think, time when people thought that apprenticeship and mentorship could maybe be digitized or entirely done remotely. And I think what we've learned is that that's not the case, that apprenticeship and mentorship need to continue to be a formal part of our culture, a part of our learning environment. Absolutely. Well, great insights, Jason. Thank you so much for sharing them with us. So we are here at the Fortune COO Summit in Scottsdale, Arizona. And Gillian, you yourself are a master operator in your job at the LA Clippers. So I want to start with the unique relationship that you have with your billionaire boss, Clippers owner Steve Ballmer.

5:14Why did you want to take on this job? And walk us through your interview process with him. Well, I mean, there were a number of things about it that were attractive. but you have to remember this was back in 2014 before he was widely known by everyone as the best owner in all of sports. But that's what I saw him as. I've worked in the sports industry my entire career. And here's this person who has taken on the ownership of a team for all the right reasons, because they love the game, because they're a fan themselves. And I think that when you have an owner who approaches the game in that way, they're not there for recognition.

5:50They're not there to lift their profile. They're not there to befriend athletes. They're not necessarily even there for the return on investment, although there is a good one, I think, with these franchises. But he was really there because he loves the game and he wanted to provide an environment for other people who love the game. And he was fiercely competitive. So all those things made the job really attractive to me. You know, one of the things that intrigues me is you have worked across different sports, NASCARs. What is it about sport itself that attracted you initially? I think this goes all the way back to when I was a child.

6:25Let's go back to when you were a child, Gillian. I mean, you know, the experience that I had with my dad. He was a passionate New York Giants football fan. And we used to watch the games on the couch every weekend. And that became special time that I shared with him. My first live sporting event that I went to was the New York Yankees game with him. And I remember him preparing me for the game. I had to bring my glove because it was possible that somebody would hit a foul ball and that I could catch it. Now, where we were sitting in like the very top tier of left field, it was not possible that I would have ever caught a ball.

6:59And yet I sat there the whole game thinking that the next one was coming at me. And I remember after the seventh inning stretch, him saying, okay, are you ready to go? And I'm like, no, I haven't got the ball yet, you know? But this idea that you could be there and have that kind of connection with someone else has always been what's attracted me to sports is providing that experience for others. So walk us through your career then. Where do you want to start? I know you come from a lot of different backgrounds before you got into basketball. Take us through that. Well, I've been doing this a long time.

7:31So back when I was a senior in college, at Hamilton College, I went to a small liberal arts college in upstate New York, which I think was really formative about my career, taught me to think, taught me to speak passionately about things I care about and to present ideas that are important to me. And all of those things are things that I use every day in this industry. But it was Hamilton's reputation, by the way, it's sort of a breeding ground for leaders. It's a wonderful place. And when I was a senior there, there was a career class that asked you to kind of talk about your strengths. And I was a writing major.

8:08So what kind of popped out was, oh, you might be interested in being a sports journalist. And I thought, okay, this is great. So they asked you to find someone who had that career, spend half a day with them, write a one-page paper on it. And that was essentially the assignment. So I did that. And the person was covering a minor league hockey game in Utica. And I remember going there and watching the person who was the head of operations at this tiny arena that held 4 ,000 people and realizing that I didn't want to be a sports journalist. I wanted to do what he did. He was throwing Frisbees into the crowd and he was pulling a name out of a hat and people were cheering.

8:44And so when he came over to the press box, I said, what is it that you do here? And he said he was the director of operations. And I asked what that meant. And he took me to the last row of the press box and he had me type into this machine the words on your feet. And he said, okay, hit this button when I tell you to. And I hit the button and everybody in the arena stood up and cheered. And he said, that's what I do here. And I thought, this is it. This is my career. This is what I'm going to do with my life. And, you know, it took a long time for me to get there. I didn't take, you know, the direct path.

9:12I took a circuitous route through lots of different sports and lots of different types of roles. But ultimately, it's what prepared me for this role with the Clippers. Was there a pivot point for you? I mean, I love that analogy of just, you know, on your feet. But what was it when you realized that an experience that took you to the next level that allowed, positioned you to be in the role you're in now? I think that oftentimes people don't approach their career path with the same sort of planning and strategy as they do their job assignments. So I really thought about it in that way. What is it that I need to do, present, learn if I actually want to run a franchise one day.

9:54And so I started in PR because that was my strength, was writing and communication and pitching stories and being persuasive. So I started there and then parlayed that into sales, really, really important in the industry. I mean, everybody who has any kind of leadership roles in these typically comes from a sales background. And then I needed to understand operations. So actually took a role in minor league baseball where I ran stadium operations and concessions and really learned what that was all about. And then slowly tried to fill in the places where I didn't have as much experience, whether it was licensing, broadcast, et cetera, and develop leadership skills along the way.

10:34Was there a lot of competition for your current role? And how did you stand out, if so? There was a ton. I mean, I don't know the full details of all of it. I've heard all kinds of crazy numbers, you know, like more than 30 people, you know, had some sort of interface with Steve Ballmer as he was filling this role. And I'd hear little pieces and parts along the way because I had this incredible network of people that was out there. And all I kept telling all of them was, if you run into Steve Ballmer, just say my name and tell him that he needs to meet me. You don't have to say whether you think I'd be good in the role or anything else.

11:07Like, I just want an opportunity to sit down with him because I'm convinced that if he met me, he would hire me. And I'm convinced that if he hired me that I could do a really great job for him. You know what I love about that is most of us are taught, and I'm not going to put a gender lens on it, but not to necessarily ask other people to promote on our behalf. And I do think that's very powerful, especially in roles where you might be one of the first going into that role, if you're not necessarily central casting. Do you feel like if you were to give advice to other people who want to follow, to want to basically run a franchise, besides that, what would be some of the other things that you think were transformative?

11:46I mean, I think networking is supremely important. And I don't think people even realize when it starts. I mean, it's with every single role that you have. And, you know, it's hard when you're trying to stand out or you're being competitive and you want to finish first, whether it's in sales or anything else that gets you noticed. Like, you know, you need to find a way to still connect with the people around you because in an industry like this, that's somebody who potentially you may be working for, who may be working for you someday, you may be working alongside or might get asked what kind of person you are.

12:17So I think, you know, that's an important piece. I think having high integrity, you know, certainly along the way, you want to continue to maintain that because you're going to run into the same people over and over again. And I think that's true for almost any industry. With this role, there was an incredible recruiting team. These two women who were with James and company who I think were really open to non-traditional candidates for this role. And they were tremendous help in making sure that I got an opportunity to be heard. Going along with Diane's point, I also feel like once you get the job, it can be hard to assert yourself too, especially when you have a very high profile boss.

12:59Were there ever any times you've disagreed with Steve? And do you have an example of kind of how you worked to overcome that? We disagree all the time, actually. And I think that's when he's at his best. You know, I can remember the first time that we were talking about something and we had this conversation about, people ask if he's ever yelled at me. I'm like, I don't think he's ever yelled at me. I cannot think of a single time. Is that because of his Microsoft reputation? I don't think people change that much. I just think he's loud and he's passionate. And I think that that can be mistaken, but I just, I don't know, for me, I just notice when he cares about something and I think, wow, I need to pay more attention or I'm not understanding where he's going.

13:41And so I try to listen more intently. But I find he's exactly the same way. And sometimes he'll say something and I'll respond with a difference of opinion and he'll say it again. And often he says it louder. And then, you know, I'll stop and say to him, I do understand your position. I just don't agree with it. And at that point, every single time I've ever said something like that, he leans in and he gets this look on his face like he's an excited child and says, tell me more. I'm very curious about understanding why and how, you know, you're thinking about something, why it's different. You know, should he be thinking about it differently?

14:17Should he be pushing me to be thinking about it differently? The time that I get to spend with him one-on-one is the best part of my month. I always take away something that is incredible that I think makes me better in my role and a better person. I want to talk about what you've done with the franchise writ large, I mean, take us back to what it was like when you first got there, right? It was a very different day than where there was no Intuit Dome, all kinds of things. But what was the state of operations when you came into this role? I think it was pretty rough going. I mean, this was a group of people who, really, really great people, by the way, who worked really hard, but who had a different mission.

15:01And that mission was to deliver a certain bottom line to ownership every month. And you could do whatever you wanted so long as you delivered that. So there wasn't a lot of bold thinking. And I wasn't there. So I don't know what the, you know, propensity was for risk taking, but I think it was actually really, really small. And Steve is exactly the opposite. He is like, hey, go for it. Try things, you know, be smart about it. But if you realize something's not working, then you pivot. It's not that, you know, if you fail, you're in some massive amount of trouble. And if you don't think boldly and try things that are hard, you can't really have big wins.

15:38And he understands that. So the organization changed pretty dramatically. I think the fans have as well. You know, when we did our first kind of marketing research and we asked people, why are Clippers fans? Like we just wanted to know what makes a Clippers fan. And there were really only three reasons. It was because the tickets are cheap, because I can't cheer for the Lakers. I came from another place or for whatever reason they were Laker averse. Or because they were coming to watch the opposing team play. They were fans of the NBA and they were, you know, coming to see the opposing team. Sounds like a low bar.

16:11Yeah. So the number of people who actually like counted themselves and raised their hands and said, oh no, I'm excited to be a Clippers fan. But over time, you started hearing more and more about the reason why people thought of themselves as Clippers fans was because, you know, this was a team that had gone through or adversity. It was loyal. It was people who were hardcore. It was people who were dedicated. They'd been through a lot and there was a clear direction on where they were going and they had something to prove. And I think that as we continued through the course of the last 10 years, that this sense of pride has just accelerated in an incredible way.

16:47And, you know, now, I mean, I was saying during the playoffs, first round of the playoffs, we have a game where we have 2 ,000 people who came to Intuit Dome just to watch the game on TV together. You know, that is something that would have been unfathomable 10 years ago. Well, speaking of dedicated, you, I read or you told me that you personally visited over 100 arenas globally to research the best practices when building Intuit Dome. Tell us about the wildest thing you saw or you did when you were doing that research. Oh, I mean, we visited all kinds of places and I would say some were arenas and some were other entertainment facilities.

17:23I remember going to a zoo in the Philippines and holding one of those giant yellow snakes around my neck. It was like one of their... Yeah. It was like a Britney Spears moment for me. But it was kind of this idea of everywhere you went, you saw things that were inspired. It was things that they did to engage whatever their audience was. I remember spending some time in Asia and seeing the way that they utilize luck. It's like sort of this way that inspires people. And I came back and I said, there's got to be a way that we can utilize that in sporting events where you like are doing something that causes your fan base to take an action that would make, you know, the team more lucky.

18:07What an interest, it sounds like more like an eat, pray, love experience than doing due diligence on stadiums. What were you looking for in this quest of going other places? You know, I think that all of these places kind of take on the personality of whoever's funding them. There's somebody who's leading the charge. And when you go there, you see that. You see what their motivations were and what they were trying to accomplish and the different tools that they use in trying to accomplish it. So each of these buildings has a personality unto itself. I think baseball does it really well. You go to baseball parks.

18:41And a lot of people like to visit every baseball park in the country because they just have such a unique personality and point of view. And that's really what Steve wanted for Intuit Dome. He didn't want people to walk in and say, oh, I've been in this building before. And even the name of the facility, I mean, the reason it's called Intuit Dome and not Arena or something more consistent with what you'd see other places is because we wanted to stand out. This is a facility in Inglewood, California, that is the home of the Clippers, and it is a must-attend place. And we set out to answer a question that he asked me at the beginning of the exercise, which was, where is the best arena in the world?

19:22Take me there, and let's just go see that. What is it? Well, my answer to him was, for what? So is it for the player experience? Is it for the media experience? Is it for the person who sits in the first row? Is it for the person who it's in the very last row. Is it for the food? Is it for hospitality? Is it for sponsors? So when you answer the for what question, you get a lot of different answers. And so we went to about seven different facilities together and had that experience of what people do well in a variety of different places. And afterwards, I think he had a really good sense of what he wanted to see and what he wanted the building to stand for.

19:58And at the end, he said, you know, what I would love is when we're done with this, that we're the definitive answer to that question. That's a good answer. I mean, I admit I only go to stadiums for the food. I don't know about you, Diane. Well, I think what's interesting is that are any of those at odds with each other, right? So can you be all of the above me talk? I do think Intuit Dome is an interesting, emblematic, you know, shift for Clippers and just for the company writ large. What is it that you did there that you think distinguishes it? Obviously, the technology, the wall, people know about that.

20:30But anything else that you think really captures the potential of what a stadium can be? I think a few things. I mean, number one, we set out to solve the problem of lines. You know, what if you could come to a sporting event or a concert and have no lines? I mean, that's sort of unbelievable. I mean, is that even possible? And that's what we set out to do. either through architecture or technology, where could we take the friction out of everything that you experience, whether it's getting your ticket taken, waiting in line for the restroom, going to get a hot dog or a Coke, all of those things are things where you're used to missing a quarter of the game.

21:05You're used to missing several songs in a concert. So can we make that something where boom, boom, boom, you can be back in your seat. And that's where frictionless technology and building a building that's a hundred percent frictionless. You have to do that from the beginning. You know, you said you go to facilities for food. I do too. Like I want, I, you know, it's a place to indulge and you want it to be great. Well, what we learned before we even put a shovel in the ground is that one of the things that makes food in a facility great is the proximity of where you serve it to the kitchens. So, you know, I remember Steve asking this question, like, how do you solve that?

21:38Most of these facilities have one or two kitchens in the whole thing. And, you know, the, the person who was advising us, great, great consultants from Levy restaurants said, the only way you could do that was if, you know, you built a kitchen in every single concession stand and no one would ever do that. And Steve was like, how many is it? And we're like, oh, like it'd be 30 or something. So we have 31 kitchens at Intuit Dome for exactly that reason. It's so that when you get the pizza, it was just made right behind you. How do you, I want to hear about how you use the fan data. I think I'd love for you to talk about the rewards experience and also just like for what you put on your menus, for what you offer in the stadium as well.

22:14Yeah. I mean, data is informing everything and we're getting better and better at using it. So when we first opened the facility, really it was about let's get this tech working, right? And now we're at this place where we're saying, okay, let's use the tech to make the experience better for people. So we've already tackled this idea of greatly reducing, if not eliminating lines. And now it's about, okay, what can we do to personalize the experience for you in the same way that, say, Amazon does that for you. So we have these decibel readers that are in the catwalk of the building, and they enable us to know how loud someone is cheering down to a single seat.

22:53So we actually can identify the loudest fan in the building, and we can reward those people. So we're encouraging the behaviors we want. We know what time you arrive. In LA, people arrive fashionably late. We want people to think about Intuit Dome as a place you arrive fashionably early. So how do we get that? Well, we reward people for showing up early, sometimes with free popcorn, sometimes with other surprise and delight, sometimes with a seat location. You get a better seat location if you show up first. So that's how we're utilizing technology and data. And we use it for absolutely everything.

23:26Steve really wanted a grilled chicken Caesar salad on the menu. We said, sure, no problem. We put it on the menu. fans. They did not buy it. They said, nope, we're not that interesting. So now Steve gets a personal, you know, one of the things we haven't mentioned, we have facial recognition technology in my building and I love it. But if you say it to people, they're like, well, that's creepy. So it's almost, whenever you're pioneering a new technology, you have to actually get people over the hurdle of understanding what it is and what it can be. And obviously when you talk but frictionless, that's facial recognition technology.

24:02Was that hard to get people to embrace it given that a lot of stadiums weren't doing it at that time? Yeah. It's important to note that it's entirely opt-in. And when we first started this, no one was doing it. So we did a lot of research on it and we talked to people about how do you feel about facial recognition? And people were absolutely concerned about it. It came up again and again and again. But when we asked them how they felt about Clear, the technology at the airport, they love it. They love it. They trust it. They feel very comfortable with it. Your phone. I love it. They love that, right?