Segment: Peter Reinhardt & His College Roommate And Cofounder

16:10Peter Reinhardt:So I think for most startups, you can kind of like go along for a while and like pretend that you're doing well. And that was the case for us. We were like, oh yeah, we're one feature away from hitting product market fit. And I think at the end of the day, well, obviously we didn't know anything about finding product market fit and we'd been honest with ourselves about it. I think by the time that we got to December of 2012, frankly, it was this kind of elephant in the room that we couldn't ignore anymore. And we finally looked at it and said, wow, we are just not very good at this. We basically burned all this capital.

16:45Peter Reinhardt:We have almost nothing to show for it. We have no active users, no one who actually cares.

16:50Calvin French-Owen:And I think there's like a, the Airbnb story I think is like poison for founders in this situation because they did grind for like two years or something. And eventually they took off. And that is just like, I don't know anyone else who's ever had a founding story like that. Like, it's just, it's not how it works. Airbnb is the like exception that proves the rule. And like, I got, I got married that fall and we went off on our honeymoon and I was like, through this period, I was like going through panic attacks, like in the, in the hospital, it was bad. Um, it was like, I think this thing is like not going to work.

17:23Peter Reinhardt:And I remember that being like a pretty dark time. Like all four of us, like normally our mode would be like, Oh, you wake up in the morning, you start coding and you like start figuring out what to do that week. Like we basically didn't code at all. We just kind of sat on the couch and argued with each other about what we should do next. Because I don't know, it's funny how hard a startup is for someone who is used to flying very high. And I think all of us came from a background where it's like, oh, you do very well in school. You study the material. You understand how to pass the tests. You pass them.

17:57Peter Reinhardt:You're kind of always just set up for success in that way. Whereas startups are totally different. It's like if you don't do something that users care about, you're done. And I think it was a very humbling experience for us where it's like, oh, it doesn't matter that we're like these hotshot kids from MIT or whatever. Like we were just bad at making things people wanted.

18:15Calvin French-Owen:And eventually Ian and Calvin, mostly Ian, I think were like, you know, I think that there's a big idea behind this little open source library, Analytics.js that we built like a year and a half prior for ourselves to distribute data between different analytics tools from Classmetric. and so they you know had like an analytics.js manifesto they wrote as like a github markdown and we debated that i thought it was a terrible idea i tried to kill it and then you know tried to kill it by convincing everybody should just like launch it on hacker news and see what people think and i thought that'll kind of kill it and make it go away we had maybe like five or six months of runway left and so we put it on hacker news and it just like blew up so that was the that was the product market fit moment and then we're off to the races trying to build that out as fast as we could.

19:02Calvin French-Owen:Do you remember the comments on Hacker News? Was it all positive? There's typically also a bunch of haters. Yeah, that's a good question. I remember being mostly positive, which was kind of surprising. I just pulled it up, 326 points on December 12, 2012. 12, 12, 12. This is a cool idea for a project. It was shockingly positive for a Hacker News thread, and we got thousands of stars on GitHub and thousands of email signups. It was pretty shocking. So our story actually is maybe somewhere in the middle, which is kind of funny, but like totally different. We were working on Weebly. It just kind of wasn't working out.

19:39Calvin French-Owen:You know, same thing, like one more feature. And then we came to the conclusion that it was a dead idea. So we tried something else. We tried a MySpace profile creator. Then we tried an ad customizer, like an ad optimizer. But in the meantime, we're like, hey, let's just not shut this thing down. I actually don't think I've ever told this story. We're like, let's just leave it online. and somehow about 12 to 18 months later the thing just starts taking off on its own completely out of nowhere and we're like hey, maybe this isn't such a bad idea after all Wow, that's cool But did you have a plan?

20:11Calvin French-Owen:If that didn't work, what were you guys going to do? We were discussing all kinds of different ideas We'd had office hours with PG We'd given him a bunch of different ideas He was like, that's a terrible idea So yeah, we were kind of at wit's end It was kind of the end of the road Do you remember that conversation? Like where you were? Like were you guys all sitting together? Was it pretty heated? Like how did that go? Yeah, it was in our apartment slash office on Russian Hill at Thousand Chestnut. That was the argument about Analytics.js. And then that was also where we were sitting all day when it was blowing up.

20:43Calvin French-Owen:So we kept building out of that apartment for another six months. Yeah, how did that? So you post on Hacker News and then it just blows up. Was that the moment you're like, wait, this is going to be it? I mean, it was clear that we just needed to go work on that. So we just like pretty much immediately started working on that. But we almost took like a holiday from vision setting. Like we were just like, we were so exhausted of just like, oh, here's a vision. Let's go build the vision that we're just like, I don't know, man. Like, let's just build whatever. What are people asking for? People want more integrations.

21:15Calvin French-Owen:People want a hosted version. Cool. Let's just do that. Just like an absolute state of exhaustion and like emotional, like end of the road. And so that's kind of what we did for like six months is we like, we tried not to have a vision. We just tried to build exactly whatever people were asking for. And then over time, the vision, you know, solidified.

21:33Peter Reinhardt:I think the moment that we got even like a glimmer of traction, it felt like enough of a rope that we should start pulling on it. And so that's effectively what we did. I think for me, I came out shell-shocked enough that I didn't even think this would be a real business until like eight months in when we signed our first enterprise contract. But I think for all of us, it was like, okay, there's at least something working here, which is more success than we've ever had to date. So we might as well keep seeing where it goes and figure out if there's a way to get to a bigger, bigger business.

22:05Calvin French-Owen:But it was a very different motion and it was kind of a cool feeling actually. Like product market fit for us almost felt like we'd been pushing this boulder uphill for a really long time, but we were in control of it. And then it sort of felt like the market like took control of the boulder and it started rolling downhill. And on the one hand, it was very exciting. And on the other hand, it was like, oh my God, I don't really control this thing anymore. It's not where I want to go. It's where the market wants to go, which was also a feeling of loss. So it took months for us to emotionally get realigned and to like, okay, this is actually exciting and this is cool and promising.

22:40Calvin French-Owen:So you said, I mean, when you launched, you had six months of runway left. How low did you get? I think we got down to four weeks, maybe three weeks. yeah and then called our investors and it's like hey i think it's time for us to raise and they're like oh cool like how's it going and i'll give the update and we're like how much cash do you have left i'm like oh like three or four weeks and they're like holy shit like you got a fundraise now like what is going on and then yeah from there it was yeah truly off to the races we got i think at one point in time we had like three weeks of cash left to outside of yc you know at that point you start making contingency plans about how you're gonna pay rent next month because it's coming up It's like next month and you guys have those kind of conversations.

23:19Calvin French-Owen:I was very naive. We were just like running at a wall. Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. So yeah, so at that point, I mean, if you raise money, you got that pressure off your back. How quickly did it start taking off? Not that fast. Like we basically grew linearly forever in terms of number of users, which is very strange. I still don't understand why. and what we figured out over time was a lot of our growth was driven by moving into larger accounts over time um so like bigger companies instead of you know a small startup paying 20 a month like in the end procter and gamble paying like seven million dollars a year and so like there was a lot of that kind of shift in account size over time which was both bigger companies and larger contract value because we were grossly undercharging we were terrified to ask for money and in the early days customers would even email and be like hey guys you got to charge more i like don't trust that you're going to be around that long.

24:12Calvin French-Owen:Can you please like, you should raise the price. Do you remember the first moment you're like, this is going to be big. Like this is really working. I think probably the first time we hired a new sales advisor and I was like struggling to figure out how to do enterprise sales. And we went to meet with Nat at Xamarin, Nat Friedman, like real like Silicon Valley stalwart. And he was running his company Xamarin at the time and they were using us, but not paying very much,$50 a month or something. And so we're going to a sales meeting where we're going to upsell them onto an enterprise plan. And our sales advisor was like, Peter, in this conversation, you have to ask for$120 ,000 a year.

24:51Calvin French-Owen:And I was like, I don't know if I can do that. Like, that's crazy. I think actually we're charging them$120 a year. And so it was like a thousand X increase in price. I was like, I don't think I can do that. And he's like, well, I quit as your sales advisor then. And he started walking away and I was like, whoa, oh, like, okay, I'll ask, I'll ask. So we sat down and got to the end of the conversation. Now it's like, this is really compelling. Like, you know, how much does the service cost? And I was like, you know, 120 ,000 a year. And I turned just like completely beet red, just like bright pulsating red.

25:19Calvin French-Owen:And he kind of looked at me and he's like, well, how about$12 ,000 a year? And I was like, how about 18? And I was like, that's fine. And I walked out of that meeting and I was like very embarrassed. And then also it was like, oh my God, the value that we're creating is just way higher, you know? And so pretty quickly, then we got to a 36K deal and then a 45K deal and then 150K deal. And then Angie's list at like 200K. And so I was like, where's the ceiling on this? Like, as we started to see those contract values creep up and we crossed like a million in revenue, that was like, okay, I now understand how this can actually be a big business.

25:54Calvin French-Owen:Cause I'm, I'm seeing the value per customer at like a level where that could be big. So, you know, considering the last pivot, you know, it seems like the idea was so fragile at that point in time? I mean, what do you kind of take away from that experience going through the pivots and then ending up on something that really, really worked? I mean, there were a lot of learnings from that. One learning for me was just like how important understanding the market as compared to like whatever your vision is, right? Like visions are worthless, truly worthless in that stage, right? They matter a lot when you're trying to like rally a company of people around a direction to all pull the oars together.

26:32Calvin French-Owen:But when it's like four people in an apartment and you're trying to find product market fit, it's like the world could care less what you think about how the world should operate. People have problems. If you solve those problems for them, they're their problems, not your vision of it, then it will start rewarding you. And so just like 10x more humility at that stage, unless you've been steeped in the space for a long time, you've got no idea. You know, I know a lot of founders, I mean, probably every single founder at some point has to decide whether they keep working on an idea that's in struggle mode, try something new.

27:03Calvin French-Owen:Different startups find success in different ways. How do you help people navigate that question? Boy, I guess for me, it's always come back to the understanding of the customer and the market. And particularly in hard tech, people can get very carried away with the science or very carried away with the capability and not necessarily understand the customer need that they're selling into. And so that's almost always where the failure mode is. I was sort of grinding away in obscurity, right? It's like trying to solve some hard technical problem that might not even matter. So I guess that's where I always try to point people is go understand the customer problem that you're going to be able to blow the competition out of the water through that understanding.

27:47Calvin French-Owen:How big did Segment eventually get? At the time of acquisition, we were about 600 people and doing north of$100 million in revenue. And then we got acquired in 2020 for a little over$3 billion and then continued to accelerate growth afterwards. It was exciting. Just paint a picture for us. What were you doing the night before you announced the acquisition of the team? And what did you do the night after you did? Oh, man. That whole period is a blur. I don't think I was sleeping very well. because you have to live like a double life as like a CEO of a company. It's like you have to keep executing.

28:21Calvin French-Owen:And yet with your small team, be in discussions with and diligence with the acquirer. And so on the one hand, like guns blazing, we're going to go do X, Y, and Z thing. But like your emotional state is completely consumed with like landing the plane on the acquisition side because it's life changing for everybody. And like a completely different thing with like incredibly high stakes in every conversation. So I don't remember exactly, but like not sleeping well. And then I think it was like squawk box at like, you know, 4.30 a.m. Pacific, you know, in my like weird janky room downstairs with like a crappy collar shirt put on that I like, you know, never wore.

29:00Calvin French-Owen:So just like emotionally spent. And did you guys as founders ever, you know, I know, at least in my experience, it's like busy, busy, busy. But did you ever have a moment of downtime where like just between founders, you kind of, you know, looking from, you know, math camp to roommates to like that kind of success? You're like, like, we kind of did it?

29:18Peter Reinhardt:Yeah, yeah. We've been trying to organize these founder trips every year, where the three of us just go and kind of like zoom out and think about those and kind of reflect on it. both for myself and I think for a lot of folks there, like the acquisition itself was kind of this like nice end of a chapter. We basically spent 10 years building this business. And I think one of the things that I'm most grateful for is seeing everyone whose careers were launched by segment. I actually think the coolest part for me is one thing that we did post acquisition is we went around to the earliest employees and actually just thanked them.

29:51Peter Reinhardt:All three of us got on a call, folks who were still at the company and folks who weren't. And I think seeing the difference that it made in their lives is like one of the things that I'll treasure most. And so I think for a lot of folks, it was like, okay, we've kind of like taken this business to like a meaningful outcome for everyone. And now it's time to continue on to the next phase. At least for me, I didn't go on to work at Twilio and neither did my co-founder, Ilya. So it was kind of only Peter who was there from the three of us founders until he left a year later.

30:22Calvin French-Owen:More after the break.

30:28Calvin French-Owen:And we're back. And so, you know, obviously Segment's not your only founder story. You know, how did you move into the next company that you started? Yeah, I started Charm Industrial in 2018. And it actually came out of a problem that I experienced as a customer at Segment. At Segment, we wanted to do the right thing from a climate perspective. And so we're buying offsets and, you know, protecting forests, supposedly, in Indonesia and the Amazon. And, you know, I was like feeling really good about that. You said you wanted to buy carbon credits. You want to do the right thing. Why was that important to you?

31:06Calvin French-Owen:I think my mom is a pretty big influence here. She was always clear with me, like, it's great to do well and build wealth. But the impact that you're having on the world around you matters in how you do that. and this was part of that right part of that was like trying to find ways that we could use the product to kind of help the world around us i don't know that we ever really figured that out it was a great business but moving around data is like that it's a business and we we had like some non-profit programs and so on where we kind of support folks that we thought had good missions but minimizing the impact that we were having at least on the climate seemed like a good way to have impact so that i think is ultimately where the motivation came from so we're buying offsets.

31:46Calvin French-Owen:And we made the first purchase in 2016, I think, or 2015. And then in 2017, I circled back and I was like, cool, what happened? Did we have the effect that we wanted with that$20 ,000 that we spent on it? What happened here? And so we started digging into the nonprofits that we'd sent money to. And the deeper I got into it, the more I was like, oh boy, I don't think that this is having the impact that we wanted it to. 70 % kind of went off into marketing fees that were lost at various levels. And so it wasn't until you got down to like, you know, the last 30 % that actually there was any evidence that the money was actually going into, into rainforest protection.

32:23Calvin French-Owen:And then you were seeing these headlines like Amazon on fire, biggest for a fire season ever in Indonesia, et cetera. And you're like, well, was the land that we put aside, like, was it protected or did it go up in flames? Cause like, I don't know, should we buy more? Like what, what's the deal here? And the deeper I got into that, the more I was like, I have no evidence that anything could happen. And so I really wanted a carbon removal product where I had trust that it actually had been removed and that it had been verified and that I could personally inspect some kind of ledger to show that it had been done correctly.

32:55Calvin French-Owen:So that was kind of the initial inspiration around Charm was a high-quality, verifiable carbon removal. So we're kind of moving into Charm. How would you either describe it to your kids or actually maybe more interesting, how do your kids describe it? yeah I have a seven five and two year old the two year old prefers to talk about the zoo with his you know three words he can string together right now a seven year old is starting to understand it though we often you know there are many problems in the world of which climate is one and it's challenging because it's a very long-term problem right there are lots of other problems that are extremely urgent and climate is tough because it's one that's both very important but also very long term.

33:33Calvin French-Owen:And so we try to describe to him as like there's a blanket around the earth from this gas and it's just kind of getting thicker and thicker and at some point it's going to become really problematic. And so I'm trying to thin that blanket by putting some of that blanket back underground in the form of bio oil. And along the way, by the way, you see the smoke and sometimes the sky turns orange and we can prevent some of those wildfires because the stuff that we're putting underground is actually plant matter that would otherwise go up in wildfire smoke and so on. So that's kind of how I explain it to them.

34:06Calvin French-Owen:And, you know, carbon removal is important. It's a small part of the problem. First, we have to reduce all our emissions along the whole supply chain. And clean power is a big part of that with solar and wind and nuclear, geothermal, et cetera. But a big part of it is industrial, like cement, steel. These are like really hard to decarbonize areas. And so we should figure out a way to re-engineer our industrial processes to remove carbon in their processing instead of emitting it. So charm industrial is char farm industrial because the idea is you take the biomass off the field, you leave behind the char, and you take the bio oil as an industrial feedstock.

34:41Calvin French-Owen:In the future, we hope that the sort of liquid biomass that we make, that we can use it as a feedstock in those. I think that's probably like a 2030s kind of proposition for us as we come down the cost curve. But yeah, today we just take the bio oil and stick it underground. Like walk me through. I mean, you come up with the idea, you decide it's time for you to do something new. You know, what were the early signals that gave you the confidence that it was the right direction? This one was more like I was convinced that this had to happen and that demand would materialize over time. That was based more on instinct than, you know, knowing these industries.

35:12Calvin French-Owen:And it took several years of like smashing my head against a wall to break out of the tech industry networks into software industry networks into like steel. concrete ammonia, you know, like, I don't think this worked that well, but like, you know, at one point I was on a sales trip to Chicago for a segment and I like made a stop in my Uber at like the headquarters of like CK Industries or something. And there's like the, the company that runs most of the ammonia plants for fertilizer production in the U S and I like, literally I had like printed out, you know, flyers basically with like a memo.

35:42Calvin French-Owen:And I like walked in cold to the building and like handed it to a secretary and was like, you know, this is for X. So it was like, I really smashed my head against the wall to like get into some of these places. Another one on the steel side that was very challenging was we had an investor whose younger brother had been a roommate with someone in college whose brother had then inherited the family's rolled steel products business in Ohio. And so I got an insurer through that chain to him. So we're like four steps deep already. And then he introduced me to like the Canadian Steel Association. The Canadian Steel Association thought this was interesting enough that they introduced me to their colleagues at ArcelorMiddle DeFasco.

36:26Calvin French-Owen:And they thought it was interesting enough that after like three meetings, they finally introduced me to the direct reduced iron plant, which was my original target in Quebec. And then, you know, I was like, oh, I'll be in the area. It's like northern Quebec, like you're not in the area. Yeah. And so I just like flew out there and that became a productive kind of relationship. So I don't know, it was very hard to break into these industries. I mean, in some ways, oddly enough, it seems like a bit of the opposite to the segment story, but also it sounds like, you know, maybe it was the customer pull that was really giving you the confidence like this is direction we need to keep going.

36:59Calvin French-Owen:Yeah, I wouldn't say that we had customer pull until 2020, but also that I was not internally focused. Like I had a feeling that this was like a strategic area to be in, but that it was going to take a while to figure out what the product market fit was. And eventually we found this product market fit on carbon removal. And it's like, it's honestly just grown faster than I expected. Like I am always a little skeptical. I'm like, but how much voluntary carbon removal are people going to buy? You know, like, I mean, I was a customer of it, but like, are other people really going to step up to the plate?

37:27Calvin French-Owen:And I was like, well, I don't know, like we'll probably get to 10 million in bookings. And then we got to 10 and I was like, well, no, like I kind of have visibility to a hundred million in bookings. And now I'm like, well, we're at a hundred million in bookings and kind of have visibility to a billion in bookings. And so you're just kind of like, I guess we'll just keep rolling with it. But importantly, I wasn't spending my time as founder on the grinding and obscurity on the technical process. I was trying to go knock down these customer conversations, things like showing up at the Chevron refinery.

37:53Calvin French-Owen:I was out in the field trying to understand what was compelling to them. One of the stories that Peter talked about that really struck me, he talks about going cold into companies after he's already been a pretty successful founder or his own right, walking into their lobby, like, you know, a company in Northern Quebec and just basically saying like, hey, like I want to meet with this person. I mean, how do you imagine that going? And like, what do you think it is about him? And how do you think those conversations went?

38:18Peter Reinhardt:I think our early failure where we came in with such expectation for like, oh, of course, we're going to succeed. We succeeded at everything else before. Oh, of course, we're going to make something that people want. Oh, of course, this idea that I have, like, that's the way the world should work. I think being hit over the head so many times with like, hey, the world doesn't necessarily work like that. The world works a certain way and it's kind of up to you to figure out how to fit into it and to build a company that makes it work a little better. I think that lesson hit all of us pretty hard and especially Peter on the product market fit side.

38:54Peter Reinhardt:And so I think since then, like frankly, Peter's biggest superpower is like figuring out the go to market path for a company. And I feel like there's lots of problems out there and I think he's going to go after them.

39:07Calvin French-Owen:You know, from an outsider's perspective, I think it's actually fascinating about how the three of you in some way post-segment explored, you know, climate tech and, you know, kind of various solutions. You know, Ilya with fire, you with heat pumps, you know, Peter was obviously doing charm. I mean, do you have any insight into like, was there something in the water? Like, what do you think it was that got all three of you interested broadly in this space?

39:27Peter Reinhardt:I mean, I think for Peter, he's always wanted to solve like one of the big problems of our time and have more of an impact. And I guess stepping back, even thinking about kind of like post-segment life, I think for all of us, we really want to try and solve some problem where we look at it. We're just like, oh, man, like this feels like a worthy thing to swing for. And so I think for him, obviously, climate change is like one of the biggest problems of our time. And he feels like he has a way to solve that. I think it makes a lot of sense that he would like get deep into it and try and understand like, hey, how can I build a bunch of infrastructure to solve this problem?

40:02Peter Reinhardt:I think he's definitely had an impact on me and Ilya as well, I would say, just from like talking about this so much. Like I feel like I've learned so much from both him and his wife, Erica, about the climate space and like where there are problems and where people could use better solutions. Like right now, he's doing the carbon removal stuff with Charm and also helping run Revoi, this electric freight startup. Between all those things, it's crazy. So I would say that's definitely, he's rubbed off on us in a good way.

40:32Calvin French-Owen:And then you also joined Revoi, which is a company that we've invested in. Can you describe what Revoi does and how you decided to get involved? Yeah. Revoi was founded by my friend Ian, who was another floor mate of ours at MIT. He was actually our next door neighbor when Calvin, Ilya, and I were roommates. Really brilliant idea that he had for Revoi. So the idea is it's an electric dolly that sits in between your standard diesel tractor, a standard trailer. No special hookups, like just you would normally hook up a trailer to a tractor. And what's cool about it is that you just have like a load cell in the kingpin and it basically tells you whether the truck is trying to accelerate rate or not.

41:11Calvin French-Owen:And purely on the basis of that, instead of burning gas, you can transfer 94 % now of the mechanical power is coming from the electric dolly, not from the gas burning in the truck. It was pretty incredible. Effectively, the truck is barely idling at this point, right? If you're hooked up to a Revoi, you're doing 120 miles per gallon in your semi-truck instead of seven. So it's a really incredible piece of technology and very quickly in the right markets. And we think with like 25 to 50 Revoys, we can get to a place where it's gross margin, positive, like breaking even with diesel. And that it's a very cost sensitive industry.

41:49Calvin French-Owen:And so I think if you can even start chipping off like a few cents per mile, you start to be actually pretty compelling for carriers to use. And from a safety perspective, in many ways, it's better. Your stopping distance is shorter just because you have the regenerative brakes on the Revoys, another axle, in addition to the truck. And you also get faster acceleration, but you'll have twice the power at your fingertips. so drivers love it from that perspective they kind of get this better maneuverability of like accelerating onto the freeway without getting you know hit from behind or jamming someone in the on-ramp lane as well as yeah shorter stopping distances in the case of like an accident or coming downhill you have a regenerative braking that's like taking a huge amount of energy into the battery instead of a long downhill where you're just burning brake pads and you know could potentially have a brake failure so there are safety and driver experience benefits as well you know i've had a very small view of some of the work you've been able to do help out there and you know i have to say it's been super impressive just super methodical very focused on execution what are some of the main lessons from segment and charm that you think you've been able to bring to revoid i think from the charm experience the number one learning which has been quite painful is just like deleting the part is really important like if you can eliminate a part you lower the maintenance cost you lower the failure mode so you increase reliability almost always it's one less thing that has to be designed and kept track of.

43:03Calvin French-Owen:And I just can't overstate, if you can delete something, you must delete it. I'll give you one example. For rearwear right now, we have turning on the rear axle, which is really convenient when you're trying to hitch it up. But you get a lot of extra friction. You get a lot of extra weight. There's all these components that then are managing the fact that that axle can turn. Anyway, so we're experimenting with that. I'm very excited about this because if you delete the ability to turn, you delete all these gears, You delete all this friction, all these other pieces. So anything that you can find a way to delete is so transformative.

43:34Calvin French-Owen:So delete the part as a mantra now. What do you think is special about Peter in terms of his strengths, in terms of what he uniquely contributes is different than most other people?

43:45Peter Reinhardt:Peter is able to go deep in such a broad range of subjects. Maybe more than almost anyone I know. It's ridiculously impressive. He's like quickly able to cross disciplines and dive into a bunch of different areas, like maybe more voraciously than anyone else I've ever seen. And so I think finding all of those in one person who has that range, but also has that ability to then go and just like execute in like a very deep, thoughtful and inspection driven way, I think is very rare. Because I guess I feel like I talked to a lot of investors, like I think investors have the range, but like not often that sort of like operational cadence.

44:22Peter Reinhardt:So I would not bet against Peter just in terms of his desire to go and get things done.

44:29Calvin French-Owen:The joy in life in some sense is like the struggle and all the learning that comes along with it. I don't know. I feel like there are big problems that need to be solved. So fun to go tackle them. Well, that's awesome. This was really great. Thanks for sharing your story. Yeah, thanks for having me. This podcast is brought to you by Leap Forward Ventures, an investor in early stage startups. If you like the show, the number one thing you'll want to do is sign up to get notified when we release new episodes. That includes transcripts and key takeaways from each story. Head to leapforward.fm to sign up.

45:02Calvin French-Owen:I'd also love to hear your feedback on the episode and who you want to hear from next. Just shoot us a text at 415-915-3050 to get in touch. This episode was produced by Theo Balcom and Kim Naderfein-Petersa. Craig Ellie is our engineer. Rhys Lodano made our cover art. Music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. I'm David Rusenko, and this is the Leap Forward podcast. See you next episode.