Benefits of Breastfeeding Past 12 Months (+ How to Wean When You’re Ready) with Jenna Wolfe | Ep. 109

0:01Hello, and welcome back to another episode of the learning to mom podcast, mom friend. Now, if you're new here, this is the podcast where you get the inside scoop on all things motherhood from your official mom friend, Layla, me. Now I was the first of my friends to get pregnant and become a mom. So I didn't have anyone to ask my first time mom questions too. So I wanted to give you the resource in your motherhood journey that I wish I could have had in mind here. You'll get your questions answered by experts without feeling judged belittled, or overwhelmed. This is a safe, judgment-free, super honest space, and I'm so glad to have you here.

0:37Each expert guest comes with their own perspective and background, so please note that the content presented in this podcast is designed for general educational purposes only and is not a substitute for personalized professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

0:49Jenna Wolfe:Hi, Jenna. Welcome to the Learning to Mom podcast. I am so excited to be here, Layla. It's been a little bit since I've guested on a podcast too, So I feel like I'm just like brimming with things to say and share and conversations to have. So I love it. I love it. I love it. Why don't you, why don't, yeah, let's just start off. Tell us a little bit about yourself and your own parenting story. Yeah. So my, my business is called Own Your Parenting Story. And I started that, um, well, really when I was pregnant with my first, which to go like way back, my mom is a doula and breastfeed, like I was breastfed probably till I was close to two.

1:33Jenna Wolfe:So it just seemed like, oh yeah, breastfeeding that thing. Yeah. Cool. And here I was spending so much effort and time planning and prepping for those like hours of labor and delivery. And I hadn't really given all that much thought to the months of breastfeeding. Right. And I did kind of take for granted that like, I just figured I'd breastfeed for a couple of years because in Canada at that time, this was like eight, eight, nine years ago now, the Canadian Pediatric Society recommended breastfeeding for two years and beyond. And I was aware of that. Right. I know in the States, it's much more recent that the recommendation has changed.

2:07Jenna Wolfe:And I think it was 2022 that they changed to recommending two years and beyond prior to that, it was just 12 months. And so it was really natural for me to be like, I want to get certified. So I started that process and was doing that. And then things were kind of good, right? Like you're breastfeeding, going through the things that are, you know, there's sleep regressions, all that kind of stuff. But once we kind of got over that initial time, I was like, yeah, okay. Smooth sailing. Right. But then I got pregnant and we were excited. We were planning this pregnancy, but when I got pregnant, I started having nursing aversion very early on, which is something that like, I didn't know that there was a word for.

2:45Jenna Wolfe:I just started feeling like I loved breastfeeding. I loved it. And I was very passionate and excited about the fact that I was breastfeeding for as long as I was. I felt very strongly about that because it was working for me and my daughter. It was so beautiful. But suddenly, my skin would start crawling when she would latch. I remember like punching my headboard in the middle of the night just to like make it through a feed. And for those who maybe aren't familiar who are never heard this term, it is more common with like toddler, older nurslings, if we're going to use some jargon. However, it can happen with younger babies.

3:20Jenna Wolfe:And it is different from there is something called dysphoric milk ejection reflux. Yeah. Anyways, dysphoria. It's dysphoria basically when you have a letdown. And so you can experience this mood change when you have a letdown. And this is different than that. That's like one type of disorder, nursing aversion or breastfeeding aversion is when you literally start to feel averse. Like it starts to feel like I don't want to do this anymore, but at the same time, you still want to do it. It's still good. You still have so many positive things about around it. So it was very confusing and we can get more into what it is and how to work with that.

3:54But at the time I didn't, I didn't know.

3:56Jenna Wolfe:And it was scary, um, especially to have been so passionate about breastfeeding for as long as I was. And it's like, wait a second, who do I turn to? Like, I'm the like, quote, expert. I don't even know what to do. And I was pregnant trying to like, you know, figure all that out. And eventually I started to do some work and I learned, I dug more into attachment, but also just like nervous system regulation and all those kinds of things and learned more about myself and more about my daughter. And then I ended up having my son and I tandem fed for three and a half years. that means I breastfed both of my kids at the same time for three and a half years.

4:33Jenna Wolfe:I started like kind of bumping into other moms and it was always kind of like this, like they would gently start talking about the fact that they were breastfeeding still. And they would kind of just like wait and see what my response was because, you know, it's not something that we often talk about, right? Maybe in like these very special, like private kind of areas. And maybe you feel comfortable at six months. You're like, yeah, I still talk about it. Oh, 12 months. Yeah, we still talk about it. 18 months, 24 months, 36 months. Like at what point is it like now everybody's and sometimes you get that judgment really young for breastfeeding at all.

5:08Jenna Wolfe:Right. But there's a point for most of us breastfeeding parents where it's like, OK, I'm understanding that other people are not comfortable with this anymore and I'm going to get backlash. Right. So I started noticing that other people had these things and slowly other people started to share too that like once I would be like, oh yeah, I'm breastfeeding two kids. They would say like, oh, you do, you are? And I'm like, yeah, I'm a lactation counselor. And they'd be like, oh my gosh, I'm struggling with, you know, they're still waking up at night. I'm having these times where I feel like I want to wean, but I don't know how.

5:38Jenna Wolfe:You know, my child screams if we say no. Dad can't put her to sleep. All of these things that they would have that they didn't feel safe to talk to anyone about. You know? And a lot of times people are focusing on that prenatal because it just doesn't feel like, at least in our Western culture, like a lot of people are doing it at that age. So that's when I took like a hard shift and was like, okay, we're focusing primarily on those breastfeeding beyond the first year, focusing on weaning, night weaning, tandem feeding, that kind of stuff. Okay. I love it. I want to get your perspective as to why you think breastfeeding past 12 months is taboo slash weird slash frowned upon in today's culture.

6:22Jenna Wolfe:So this, there's a, first of all, there's a lot of different angles and perspectives that we can take and look at things through different lenses. And for people who are interested, there's this phenomenon called scientific motherhood, which was actually rooted in a lot of racism. and really crazy stuff that happened in the early 1900s, late 1800s, where there was like a push to undermine mother's intuition. And we're all like obsessed with the scientific method. And so it's like, oh, we have to do everything science-based. So we really started to lose touch with our own instincts as a mom and our own intuition and our own biology in so many ways.

7:01Jenna Wolfe:We started to think, okay, well, what does the science say? And since learning about that, honestly, I've pulled back on some of the ways that I talk about breastfeeding in my own business, in my kind of like marketing stuff on my website, where I use a lot of like science back, like that kind of terms, which it is because I see that importance. But also a lot of times we're so willing to trust the science that sometimes we've like disconnected from ourselves. And so there's one kind of like lens through that. It's really fascinating. Have you ever just thrown in the towel on non-toxic cleaning products because they don't actually work.

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8:57Jenna Wolfe:We also have formula coming up. And now I want to be extremely clear that I think formula is incredibly important. And there's some really nasty stuff that's happened with formula marketing. So there was such a big push around the 1950s and whatnot for independence, independence, right? Like moms need to be independent from their babies. Babies need to learn independence. it's an, oh my goodness, formula can do that, right? It's really important for your baby to be separate from you because that's how they're going to thrive in the world, right? Like these kinds of things. And then we add on the sexualization of breasts and of breastfeeding.

9:35Jenna Wolfe:And before you know it, you've got, you know, men and fathers who are uncomfortable with the fact that their son is breastfeeding because somehow that's sexual, right? So, I mean, there's so, so, so many layers that are here. And I think it's really important to note too, that like prior to a hundred years ago ish breastfeeding till three or four was totally the norm in most places. So it's a really kind of like modern thing that we have this. And I understand there's a lot of important reasons why we breastfeed. And at this point, there's a lot of things that unfortunately formula cannot totally replicate.

10:13Jenna Wolfe:And I think we need to do a better job serving moms and families by pouring more money into breastfeeding research so that we can have alternatives that adequately meet those needs. And again, I'm not saying that formula is bad or wrong or anything, but there's just certain things that I think we're doing a disservice to by not having researched enough because there's no money in researching breastfeeding. And when you think about it, if you think about TV shows you've watched when you're out in the park, when you're them all, how many people do you actually see latch their baby in front of you versus how many bottles do you see?

10:48Jenna Wolfe:And then think about growing up. You know, we have these things called like mirror neurons in our brain that we can see what somebody else is doing. And our mirror neurons are picking up on that. And our brain is like practicing those movements. Like we haven't been watching all of our family members, you know, latching their babies. We haven't been sitting beside them, watching them latch. It's like private tucked away. And I am not shaming anyone who chooses to do things privately. But I just want to say that like, this is the cultural kind of soup that we're in, right? It's much, much more normal to see a baby with a bottle in their mouth than a baby with a breast in their mouth.

11:23Jenna Wolfe:It just means that we get to a certain point where it's like, it feels really awkward. It feels uncomfortable. It's like, oh, it's good. I know it's good, but like, I don't, I can't even conceptualize how that works. Let alone breastfeeding to six months or to 12 months, right? Like I, I believe in the U S is average 35 % of babies are breastfed to 12 months and like 24 months. It was something like 5%, which is just crazy when the recommendation is for two years and beyond. And I'm not saying that everybody has to do that by any means, but 5%, that's it. So it makes sense that we're like, Whoa, this feels weird.

11:58Jenna Wolfe:And it It feels strange. And I'm not totally sure what to do with this. So what I told you before we hit record was every Wednesday, I do a Wednesday weekly Q &A on my Instagram stories. And someone had asked, like, what do I do because I'm not ready to give up breastfeeding and my baby's 12 months? I don't exactly remember how she worded it. But it just was very eye-opening to me of how far the culture has come from our ancestral lifestyle. Like no one told her you don't have to stop. Yeah. Like it's this idea that's like, oh, once they're 12 months, no more. Sorry. But like, no, it's just so crazy that women are being told, even if it's just through subconscious messaging that, oh, once your baby's 12 months, it's no more breast milk.

12:48Jenna Wolfe:And I think that there's another part to this too. So there's kind of almost like two sides to the coin. We have one side, we have this, like, I don't even know what breastfeeding past six months looks like. And the only way I can think about it is like on the schedule and then you've fully weaned by 12 months and that's how it needs to be. But on the flip side, we can have a different kind of world. Basically, like your child needs it. So you got to keep doing it. Right. And so what often happens is that for the breastfeeding, we have this like on demand breastfeeding. But at what point does the on demand breastfeeding like subside?

13:21Jenna Wolfe:And so sometimes what people get is that 12 month point. And they're like, well, am I just supposed to keep breastfeeding constantly? If my child pulls on my shirt, like, am I supposed to say yes? Like what? I don't know what to do with this. And so what ends up happening is I find with a certain subset of parents who are breastfeeding is that they don't know how to balance their needs and their child's needs. And so it can feel very hard. And I don't know that this was what that particular person was asking about, but it's like, whoa, do I just keep doing this? Like, at what point do things shift?

13:55Jenna Wolfe:And a lot of times we have this idea, like we can't spoil a baby, but then like, OK, what happens at 24 months? Am I spoiling them? what if I'm using it all the time and I'm breastfeeding every time they're upset are they not learning coping strategies am I enabling them somehow am I like making them emotionally immature and even people who feel really passionate about the fact I mean there's lots of incredible you know breast milk continues to change throughout the entire time that you're breastfeeding so it changes at six months 12 months 24 months immune factors increase protein increases, like there's certain things that increase to adapt to your toddler's needs as you're continuing to breastfeed.

14:33Jenna Wolfe:So people who know those things, right. And think breastfeeding is incredible. And I want to breastfeed, but then the reality of like, how do I live my life breastfeeding my toddler when I'm scared that I'm, you know, not teaching them how to work through emotions in a, in a different way. So in the second year of life, 12 to 24 months, two cups of breast milk provides 29 % of energy requirements, 43 % of protein requirements, 36 % of calcium requirements, 75 % of vitamin A requirements, 76 % of folate, 94 % of vitamin B12, and 60 % of vitamin C requirements. So if you're continuing to breastfeed your kid, how many picky eating toddlers and parents are freaking out about how much nutrition they're getting.

15:22Jenna Wolfe:But by continuing to breastfeed, like you're not just supplementing breast milk, like you're providing important nutrition for your kids during that second year of life. So it doesn't, there's a whole like lie out there myth that like, Oh, breastfeed breast milk turns to water after six months or after 12 months. Um, pediatricians will say that kind of stuff. Sometimes parents will say it to their like grandparents, right? Parents to their kids who are breastfeeding. so that it's important it's power packed with nutrition um it's really important for um or really supportive for healthy oral development jaw development teeth and there can be this idea that breast milk causes um cavities which isn't true lactoferrin in breast milk it's a like a probiotic a healthy bacteria actually prevents cavities in breast milk um and it's it's teeming like breast milk's full of it.

16:14So interrupting this week's episode real fast for this week's segment of mom mail. If you're new here, this is the part of the show where I answer a listener submitted situation or scenario. Basically you write in your tricky situation and I give you the advice only a real mom friend would give. Here's what I received this week. Hi Layla. Thanks for all you do on the podcast. I've been a listener for a few months now and literally look forward to Mondays for the new episode. Here's what I need help with. I have a lot of anxiety, kind of always have. My baby just turned nine months and I feel like I have no idea what I'm doing most of the time.

16:49I read all the books. I watch all the videos, but every day feels like a new problem. Sleeping, feeding, teething, you name it. I keep worrying I'm messing things up and I don't know how to trust my instincts. How do you know what's normal and how do I stop panicking about every little thing. This is so hard and I am so sorry that you feel this way. At first, like hearing high anxiety, it makes me think that perhaps you have postpartum anxiety, which is unfortunately fairly common. So first and foremost, I would recommend that you seek the help that you deserve for this and go talk to a therapist or a counselor if you have the means.

17:35Don't feel guilty. Don't feel like, oh, it's not as bad as the next person. Don't get into the comparison game. It's going to help you, especially if this is something that you said that you've always struggled with. And I'm sure motherhood is just compounded on that. And that's what's, oh, my heart just hurts for you. So then what I would recommend is honestly, I obviously want you to listen to the podcast and gain knowledge. But if it is adding to your anxiety, it is not worth it. Like mom, friend, I want you to thrive in motherhood. And if you're being inundated with real after real and idea after idea and five tips to do this and five things to avoid here, like delete it all.

18:20Stop reading the books. Stop listening to the podcasts. I know that's counterintuitive, but be able to like really listen to your instincts. And I want to speak into that and let you know that mother's intuition is real. That doesn't start once you have two kids. That doesn't start once your baby turns 12 months. You already have that. And perhaps all of the additional resources is just clouding that. We didn't have hundreds, thousands of years ago as mothers of all these conflicting advice and opinion. Maybe that's hurting and that's what's getting in the way of you being able to listen to your own mother's intuition.

19:04So I know it's ironic coming from me, but it might be time to delete social media and stop listening to podcasts and stop reading the parenting books for a little bit to be to listen to your mother's intuition and trust your instincts a little bit better. Because I think once you start listening to it, you're going to be able to gain the confidence a little bit more. And each time you'll feel a little bit more confident, trusting that intuition, trusting your instincts overall. I hope that was helpful. Obviously I don't know your whole story. I always say that like take my advice with a grain of salt, but as your mom friend, that's what I would encourage you to do.

19:48Now, if you're looking for advice, email me at learningtomompodcast.mommail at gmail.com with the subject line, mom mail, and then keep your ears open because we might just answer it on next week's episode.

20:01Jenna Wolfe:There are reasons like some children do get cavities who are breastfeeding overnight. And oftentimes that has more to do with genetics and other dietary things that are going on. And occasionally sometimes there could be like a lip tie or something that's causing food to pool in little like spots in their mouth. And so you need to look at somebody who's like actually a specialist in that oral development and children who can help with that, those pieces. Cause sometimes dentists will just say, Oh, you need to stop breastfeeding overnight, but there's no real reason why you have to, unless it's not working for you.

20:34Jenna Wolfe:The risk of childhood leukemia decreases by 20 % with extended breastfeeding. And this was really fascinating too. Lower rates of type two diabetes for both mother and child, lower rates of rheumatoid arthritis, cardiovascular disease, like lots of important things for both mom and child as far as like health goes. So there's tons and tons of reasons to continue to do that. And if you continue to do it through pregnancy and like, so if you get pregnant and you continue you'd breastfeed through pregnancy and you'd decide to tandem feed. It is a game changer when you have a newborn and a toddler.

21:13Jenna Wolfe:First of all, if you struggled like I did with like breastfeeding issues in the beginning, your toddler is going to regulate your supply. That means less engorgement. So your breasts aren't like super rock hard and like painful on day three, like they are for most people, but you have a toddler who can be regulating that supply. Also, if your baby has tongue and lip tie issues, has anything like that, your toddler will maintain your supply for you, which means you don't have to triple feed and pump and do go through all that stuff. There are, it's a myth. It's not true. There can be this idea that like the toddler steals the milk from the baby, but that's not true.

21:51Jenna Wolfe:In fact, breastfeeding supply and demand. So if anything, they're increasing that milk for the baby. So that's another thing. Also, it's just like an easy button for parenting when you've got a toddler that's like tantruming and freaking out. You can just be like, okay, come breastfeed. And like the baby breastfeeds and you've got like a minute of like, and you can still put that toddler to sleep super easy by breastfeeding and you can just chill out for a minute. So that's another kind of like benefit of reason why you might want to continue. And then, yeah, I mean, we know that also kids who breastfed for 12 months or beyond have lower rates of cortisol during stress situations too.

22:27Jenna Wolfe:So we're talking about that emotion situation, like emotion regulation piece. Yeah. Like they, they have lower rates of cortisol when they're in stressful situations, which is pretty amazing. So there's tons and tons of reasons to consider continuing to breastfeed. If that's, if that's working for you and something that you're interested in. One of my parenting mantras, I guess people is I'm constantly asking myself, is this really what's right? Or is this just an American norm? So when you talked about earlier other cultures and ancestral and all that stuff, I want to kind of talk about that for a moment.

23:03How long is breastfeeding like biologically normal if we look beyond today's Western cultural norms? That is a really, really great question.