Dogs and Babies: How to Keep Everyone Safe with Family Paws | Ep. 99

0:00This is relevant for everybody because we come across dogs all the time. And even if your dog is a good dog, your dog has a way of communicating and that is through body language. And that's going to escalate as a final stage of communication in a bite if the other signals are not paid attention to and are not responded to. And if we pay attention to their like licking lips, turning away, whale eye, when they shake off a lot or yawn a lot or suddenly start scratching or sniffing, those are all things that indicate something's going on. And your dog is saying, I'd like a little space, but they're saying it by giving that tongue lick and then turning their head away.

0:48so these are the things that a lot of children obviously aren't going to see and a lot of adults aren't going to see unless they grow up around it or learn from someone like myself or in the dog community about body language hello mom friend it's your official mom friend layla

1:05Learning To Mom:welcome back if this is your first time tuning in welcome this is the only podcast that grows with you. So season one was all about pregnancy and birth. Now season two is covering postpartum and your baby's first year of life. And then season three, which launches in September, will cover your baby's second year of life. So from 12 months to 24 months old. So come binge the episodes that apply to your life phase and stay around a bit here. You and I get all our first time mom questions answered from experts in prenatal postpartum and pediatric health so that we can be less overwhelmed and more informed.

1:41Learning To Mom:Each expert guest comes with their own perspective and background. So please note that the content presented in this podcast is designed for general educational purposes only, and it's not a substitute for personalized professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

1:55Learning To Mom:Welcome back, Jen, to the Learning to Mom podcast. I'm so excited to have you back on. Well, thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Oh, this was so great. So to anyone who hasn't listened, Jen came on in season one to talk about how to prepare your dog for baby's arrival. That was just such an eye opening episode. and I know that we're going to get into this Jen, but the reason that I just really love your perspective and your expertise is because you are obsessed with dogs. There is not like a more dog person than you yet. You also, because you are so knowledgeable on them, you also are able to be like, Hey, these are their warning signs and this is what you do and don't do.

2:46Learning To Mom:So thank you so much for coming back on to talk about dogs and babies in their first year of life. Yes, that's an important time. So yeah, let's dive in. Let's do it. Before we do, do you mind just introducing yourself to the listeners who may have not heard the previous episode and also share why you started Family Paws? Sure. So I am Jennifer Shryock. I'm a certified dog behavior consultant. I'm the mother of four children. I've got a degree in special education and elementary education, and I'm a licensed family dog mediator. I began Family Paws in 2002 and have been running Family Paws in the programs since 2002.

3:29And now we have over 250 licensed educators all over the world. And it's, yeah, it's important. And I started it because I saw so many people make phone calls in that they were scared about having a baby and a large dog or their dog already bit. And there was a problem, which, you know, that's really scary when you have that kind of situation. So I really looked up a lot of information. So there wasn't a lot of resources and said, that's going to be my thing. So I love it. And that's a great thing.

4:02Learning To Mom:Something that I want to kind of start off with, which didn't make the Google doc. So I apologize for maybe a surprise question. is what you just touched on of like, maybe your dog was already bit your kid or like, is an aggressive dog already. I think those are a lot of the families that are like, kind of, you know, kind of being like, this is important. But I think I see so many families of like, my dog wouldn't hurt a fly. And like, you know, so I guess, could you just speak to like the importance of this conversation, regardless if you have a really gentle dog, or if you have a more aggressive dog already.

4:44Yeah, no, that's a really good and important point. And I wish that the whole world would hear it is because we really need to pay attention to our dogs and all dogs have communication systems and they don't want to bite. But if the communication system, the signals that they offer aren't paid attention to, then they're going to escalate just like you and I would escalate. I mean, we may not escalate to biting, but we're going to escalate to shouting or we're going to express ourselves some way. Right.

5:16Learning To Mom:So, so true. I never thought about that. Hey, you're not listening to me. Now I'm going to scream my head off at you because I feel like you haven't heard me for the last time. Well, hopefully we're not doing that, but on some days, I don't know, I've asked you a thousand times to undo that thing.

5:34So it's really, really important that we pay attention. And so this is relevant for everybody because you come across dogs all the time. And even if your dog is a good dog, your dog has a way of communicating and that is through body language. And that's going to escalate as a final stage of communication in a bite if the other signals are not paid attention to and are not responded to. Yeah, absolutely. Pretty important.

6:06Learning To Mom:Absolutely. I know we're going to talk a lot about dog body language because I know that's really your area of expertise, but I know we'll get into that. I kind of want to start for those who are about to bring home baby for the first time. What do you do with that first introduction between your dog and your baby? Oh, it's so individual. So I'm going to tell you that right off the bat, I'll have tips, but I won't have specific like you must do this because every dog and every family is individual. For some people I'll say, oh, definitely have a leash on your dog. While others I'll say, oh no, your dog may have more frustration with the leash on them.

6:45So it's really particular. The other thing is I like to refer to as, as a homecoming period, as a period of time that it's not a one-time introduction, that it's a homecoming period. It's over a three-month period of time that your dog is getting to know your baby. So it's not essential that we're doing, you know, face-to-face greetings and putting our dog right up to our baby and our baby right up to our dog, but rather we're allowing our dog to observe the baby. We're using gates, we're using X-pens, we're using, you know, the play yards that have the eight panels, we're using different things so that the dog doesn't have to be up close, but they can sniff, they can see, they can be reinforced in a positive way while parents are tending to baby.

7:36So there's lots of little things that we would do. But the most important thing is, gosh, everybody being calm, as calm as possible, and as comfortable as possible. When we make a big deal about it, it gets the dogs really excited and we want to keep them rather. Okay. Now what about some easy

7:56Learning To Mom:like tips you have for helping your dog assimilate in the first few weeks past that first introduction? Now your dog's living with this baby. His whole life possibly was just changed because he's no longer the baby. How do you help in those first, not just weeks, but also like months? Yeah. So really you're right. We call it the first three months as the homecoming phase. We are doing positive exposure. So lots of exercises where the dog is included, but maybe, maybe sometimes on leash, maybe sometimes on a tether, maybe behind a gate, maybe in a crate, but we're going to be including them in the activities that we do with the baby.

8:38So for example, if someone is nursing, you can put the play yard around the chair so that you have a barrier, but you want to include the dog as much as possible. I love food enrichment toys. Those kinds of things are really excellent. Licky mats, snuffle mats. These are all things that people can have ahead of time and have them so that when you are doing activities like a diaper change with the baby, you can put down a snuffle minute and let your dog do something fun, or you can practice sits and downs.

9:11Learning To Mom:So when you are talking about like nursing in the play yard, you know, when does that play yard go away? It goes away when people see that the dog is able to be calm and relaxed. I just know that my families know when it's that time, because you're walking around with your baby and your dog's not barking or acting or doing something, those kinds of things. And you see that your dog is acclimated, has started to habituate. It happens faster than people think. But then when it changes is when baby starts sitting up and facing forward. So when baby's facing forward and facing outward, that's when we see some changes where dogs are like, hmm I'm interested again because the baby's now maybe at their eye level and facing forward so going from cradle hole to like facing outward that's when dogs sometimes get a little interested too because the baby's eye level is right there so what do you see like you just see more excitement from them more excitement we could see some growling at that point because some dogs take it as an intimidation.

10:24They don't know what to make of this. And that's obviously a good time to reach out to one of us. But sometimes it's barking because they're just not sure why this baby staring at them without blinking. And it's right at their level for some dogs. So a lot of times when babies are sitting on people's laps, I encourage people to turn the baby to the side so that they're not directly staring at the dog. Right. So it's not direct frontal. Oh, okay.

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12:40Learning To Mom:Or you can go straight to their website. I linked both their website and what's in my makeup bag for you in the show notes. Yes. So what about having your baby like down on the ground, like on their play mat? Is it safe to have your baby on a play mat on your dog just there? That all depends on what preparation you've done ahead of time. So a lot of times our dogs are used to us sitting on the floor and floor time means play time. And if that's the case, like if sitting on the floor equals pounce time, play time, ball time, then we're going to have some problems and confusion, a lot of problems and confusion.

13:18And so what we want to do is during pregnancy is really practice that ahead of time. Like whether we sit on the floor and read a book, or we practice sitting on the floor doing nothing or practice sitting on the floor equals laying down calmly. Those are things that we would want to do ahead of time. Interesting. Okay.

13:39Learning To Mom:Otherwise you haven't done any preparation. Yeah. Well, then it's really difficult. I'm not going to lie. It's really hard when there's no preparation ahead of time, because that's when I get the phone calls. Our dog is really jealous. Our dog is wanting to get in between all the time. Our dog is growling because we're playing with the baby and we're not paying attention to them. What it usually is, is the rules of the game have changed, but no one's informed your dog, right? So sitting on the floor no longer means playtime for dog, but the dog's not got that memo. They don't know that. So it's, you know, they don't know all of a sudden that this is unsafe.

14:21They don't, they don't know. It's up to us to teach them that, okay, the rules now have changed to when we sit on the floor, we play this way, or we sit, or you lay down next to me calmly, or you lay on your mat or, or whatever but we need to identify what those rules are for the dogs so that they can succeed because that's all it is we do we don't let them know how to succeed yeah so getting into the do's

14:51Learning To Mom:and don'ts do's and don'ts what are do's and don'ts before your baby is mobile and then we'll talk about the do's and don'ts for once they're so do's do's before your baby is mobile are things like you childproof your home, childproof your home for your dog, your new situation. Look at the management you have. Like if the crate has been in the living room and that's your most active place, then you're not going to want it there because child who's mobile can reach into the crate and that can cause problems. That can cause a dog to bite because they're confined. You're going to want to think about those things.

15:31So do think about your space, your environment and what may need to change, don't wait to the last minute to get the gates. Like, don't like seriously. Don't. That is the hardest thing for people to go through is, you know, that they haven't practiced separation. So do practice separation time. And that I mean a lot. So first thing is, you know, making sure that we have separation time so that your dog is able to be behind a gate or in an X-pen while you are in the house doing things, but not tending to them. So we want to make sure that, you know, the dog is able to be on its own comfortably because you're going to need that time once you have a mobile baby.

16:21And then again, don't, my don't would be don't wait till the last minute to get that gate because your dog needs to learn how to behave and how to be comfortable on the other side of the gate. Gates are important for a period of time. Again, it's a period of time. It's not forever, but the toddler stage, especially that six months, six months, nine months, you know, 14 to 18 months where they're toddling awkwardly, all those different stages are really important so that the dog has their own time. do make sure that the dog has its own safe space where there's no interruptions even if it's putting a blanket over a crate because one of the problems that we have is a lot of dogs aren't getting enough sleep so we want to make sure that wherever the crate is it's in a quiet place as quiet as it can be i mean it might be just an offshoot of the kitchen or someplace but not where the kids are going to go.

17:20Do seek help and support from other people. Like seriously, if it means hiring a pet sitter, a dog walker, if it means boarding your dog for a day or two, there's daycares, there are places that our dogs can go. Those are things you can do for your mental health. Because if you don't take care of yourself, it's really likely the dogs are going to end up finding another home. And that's the thing that breaks people's hearts too. Those are the things that I would seriously think about are all the things that I just mentioned, because it's exactly when people do not plan, you know, to have to childproof their home and rearrange the management.

18:06They keep management exactly as it was. And then they don't think about the gates, the crates, all those different things, getting their dog ready for that. And then we really want people to support themselves. it's so so incredibly important all those are reasons why people call us on a regular basis

18:24Learning To Mom:something that you said that it just reminded me of so many of my friends experiences that maybe we can talk about I hope I think you just being a mother and a dog person would have good advice on is the guilt that a lot of first-time parents feel when one they don't view their dog the same. And I know that like people don't think that they're going to, but every single one of my friends who have dogs, their view, like, it's just kind of inevitable. Like it sucks. It's a hard reality, but you don't view your dog the same. And then you feel really guilty about it. And then you feel more guilty because they're really overstimulating on top of the baby.

19:08Learning To Mom:I know. I'm wondering if you just have any like advice about that. Right. There's so many mixed emotions and feelings. And I have lots of advice and thoughts about that. One of the reasons we started the support line along with the just bites in general was the impulsive rehoming phase where people feel like their dog would be better off somewhere else because they don't feel like they have the energy or time. And that's where people feel. And if we can just talk to them and talk them through it, a lot of times they figure out that they can do it. It's just that their expectations of themselves are way too high.

19:42And sometimes we just have to let go. It's not going to look like it did before, but it's still going to be a really beautiful life that my dog has with us. There are times that rehoming is needed, but those are different than what I reference as the impulsive rehoming phase, where it's more about a person who's saying, I just can't do it. I can't do one more thing. That's why I suggest like boarding and doing things like that. So that moms get breaks, moms and dads need break from being needed from everything that needs them. You know? So sometimes that means the dog too.

20:19Learning To Mom:Do you have any advice or tips for when your dog is just really making you feel so overstimulated? The boarding one is a really good one. Absolutely. It's time for the dog to go to their crate or their space. That's why they need a space to themselves. Because when you're feeling just tapped out, I'm assuming you're talking about when you're feeling tapped out and you just don't want to go with one more thing. Yeah. I'm so that mom that I get tapped out very easily. So they always have bones in our freezers that we can pull out to give to them. And again, this is where being able to use your crates, your gates, your X-Pens, hugely important because moms get tapped out just on a daily basis because we have a little one climbing requiring our attention okay back to kind of the questions that i have for you and the do you don'ts i'm curious to know in your like professional opinion would you let dogs be on the furniture if you have babies um i don't mind dogs being on the furniture if it's with an invite so if we invite you and you come up and when i tell you down or off, you get down, then that's fine.

21:40Now, where I struggle with this is when we have babies that are newly toddling and use the couch for a cruising station, they cannot have a dog on the couch. So dogs cannot be on a chair or on the couch, and that should be preventable because that cruising motion and unsteadiness of the toddler going right up to the dog in their cozy spot laying down is a face bite waiting to happen. So yes, I allow them to be up with invite only and practicing on and off. Okay. Even, even the nice, good, relaxed, calm dogs don't like toddlers cruising up to them. Okay. Yeah.

22:27Learning To Mom:I mean, it's understandable, right? That's understandable. I don't blame them. I wouldn't like that. I mean, when you think about it, look at a video that on YouTube, just look up any video of baby crawling towards camera and imagine being a dog and having that happening to you and not understanding. Oh my goodness gracious. And something that I want to talk about with that you talked about on the first episode was all those like expressions that you have. Nothing tests your patients more than trying to warm a bottle at 3am while your baby is losing their mind. A friend of mine told me she was doing the whole like microwave, a mug of water, plop the bottle in weights, world test, reheat situation.

23:08Learning To Mom:And by the time it was ready, her baby was just full on inconsolable. The meltdown was insane. And it is painful for your mama's heart to listen to that when it's going on. It is, you don't understand that until you become a mom of just like how painful it is hearing your kid cry to that level. And she was telling me that she did not know that it was going to be that complicated, simply warming up a bottle. Not that it's complicated, but it just takes a lot of freaking time. So naturally I told her that she needed the busy baby kettle. If you are new here, you haven't heard me talk about them before, but if you're not new here, then you are well aware that I freaking love the busy baby kettle.

23:49Learning To Mom:It warms breast milk and formula in just 90 seconds, which is two times faster than other bottle warmers because when your baby's hungry, speed matters. But let's also not forget about the accuracy of this thing because babies are particular. And if that bottle is even a little too warm or a little too cold, they will refuse it, which is the most maddening thing in the world, which is why the Busby baby kettle has six temperature sensors. So your bottle is heated evenly. There's no hotspots. There's no cold pockets. There's no guessing and it's completely portable. So there's no cords. There's no outlets.

24:24Learning To Mom:You just pop it in your diaper bag, like a little thermos. So whether you're on the go, you're at a friend's house or yes, trying to survive those middle of the night feeds, it's there to make your life easier. So if your baby takes a bottle, even occasionally grab the Busby baby kettle, go to Busby baby.com and use code mom 10 for 10 % off. And as always the links in the show notes for your convenience. One of the expressions that I still think about all the time, but I'm not, I just remember the gist of it. So I'm not going to get the cue expression or whatever. Is that like babies, a grow, babies grow, dogs age, adjusted every stage.

25:04Let's talk about that. Yeah. So babies grow and they grow quickly in that first year they grow. Like, think about it. they're in the womb. I mean, that first year is wild. So as babies are growing, dogs are aging, they've stopped growing and now they're just aging and getting older. They may or may not appreciate if you have say a five-year-old and then you have another baby two or three years later, that dog might've aged into an age where now they're not as comfortable with that baby. You know, so we have to account for the fact that our dogs are aging. A lot of pain issues turn into aggression issues because they're not diagnosed.