Toddler Sleep Problems: What's Normal at 2-3 (and What's Not) with Cara Walker | Ep. 155

0:00Cara Walker:My goals for a two-year-old, and this is going to shock a lot of people, is a three-hour nap and 11 to 12 hours at night. Some two-year-olds are ready for a two-hour nap. They will be able to handle that. But I will tell you, most of them will still do three hours, which sounds crazy. Welcome back, mom friend, to the podcast where we discuss all things motherhood. So you can be empowered and educated without feeling overwhelmed. This is the Learning to Mom podcast, and I'm Layla, your official mom friend. I am so glad that you're here. Each expert guest comes with their own perspective and background, so please note that the content presented in this podcast is designed for general educational purposes only and is not a substitute for personalized professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

0:45You're going to get a lot out of this week's episode, so let's get right into it. Hi, Kara. Welcome to Learning to Mom podcast.

0:52Cara Walker:Hi. Thank you so much for having me. This is going to be exciting, a good episode. Um, yeah, I'm excited. Um, right now we're recording and this episode fits very timely into our life with our almost two year old. So I'm excited to pick your brain a little bit, but before we get into everything, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself and what well-rested mama is all about? Yeah. So I'm a mom of three. Um, my kids are a little bit older now. So I started the whole sleep training thing after we had our first baby, of course. And then ever since then, I've just been helping moms. And just then I entered the parenting side of things and stuff like that.

1:35Cara Walker:So it's been really fun. That's great. Talking about sleep for two to three-year-olds specifically, why is sleep in this age range uniquely challenging? I think because most of us are genuinely scared of our two-year-olds, right? Like we're like, uh, you know, like we're nervous to like rock the boat too much because we, their reaction. Right. And I think that we're constantly trying to teach them new things. Right. And something that's been perfect for so long, let's say they've been an amazing speaker since they're a baby. All of a sudden at two, you know, that, you know, when they're like just saying no all the time, like, no, like that's like their favorite word.

2:18Cara Walker:then it starts to trickle into like naps and they start to resist and stuff like that so i think that we truly start like negotiating too soon and then they like can sense us and they can like sense that like you're changing something or you said yes that when you normally say no and then it just like snowballs because they're developing so fast they're progressing in so many different areas of their life, what their brains and their mobility and all of that stuff, that that's truly what's disrupting their sleep. But we don't know that, right? Like first time moms don't know that we're like, oh my gosh, she doesn't want to nap anymore.

2:55Cara Walker:And then one person will say, oh, my daughter stopped napping at two. Right. And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, then you don't have to nap anymore. Like they didn't have the two or they're pregnant and they're like, oh, well, they don't like their crib anymore. They're big now, you know, they put them in a big boy, a big boy, big girl bed, whatever it is. And these changes that we like make so instantly out of emotion at that age, it just causes so many problems. So we always just, you know what I'm saying? Like, I don't want to say we're all scared of our two-year-olds, but like, they're kind of scary.

3:25Cara Walker:Right. So it's like, never thought about to your point, like this, they're finally able to tell us what they want. So then to things like, you know, then they start, sometimes it's actually because they're thirsty, but I feel like very rarely is that the case. Yeah. They're dying of thirst actually. That's just like, oh, if I say this, then mom's going to get me water five times or, you know, it's, it's kind of like their brain starts to identify that. Just what you said. If I said, well, I, they said it one time on Thursday. Right. And you're like, oh, you've never said that before. You must be thirsty.

4:02Cara Walker:So I'm going to go get it. And they were like, wait a minute, that worked. And then it's like the next thing. Right. And then they start to learn basically the request and the response. And then it just becomes this whole thing to where, you know, my, my toe itches. Right. And you're like, okay, let me find a cream because I don't know why your toe itches, but I'm going to fix it right now. You know? And it's just like, they're just making the fuck, but we, it's a first time for us too. So it's really easy to be like, Like, well, it must be true, right? Like, you're not a liar. You don't even know to lie.

4:31Cara Walker:So like, how do we know? But then actually it just, it becomes more of a game for them. And then now all of a sudden, like a week has gone by and you're like, wait, what happened to my kid and their sleep? And just like, everything's crazy. So I think it's innocent on the parents' part. I don't think it's anyone's fault. I think it happens quickly and it happens on accident. And it's very innocent, if that makes sense, because I can't tell you the phone calls I get that ever they're always a perfect sleeper until right and then after they say the word until whatever story happened whether you know it's just what you said water or travel or something like that it's like that's where the little one identified like oh that worked that was cool I want to do that instead and then becomes a mess to that point so you said until like what are the common untils?

5:24Cara Walker:So the most common is, well, there's a couple of different ones, right? So some of them are just parents introduced, right? To where they might be pregnant and they want the crib. They don't want to buy another crib, right? So they make that transition too soon. Or let's say a daycare, right? Is like, oh, we, you know, only do nap at this time, not a time that they're used to, right? Like that can cause a problem. So those are kind of like external like factors where the kid's not really like, they're just kind of like a bystander, but with them, you know, it's, they learn to lift their leg, right?

6:03Cara Walker:Like a skill mobility, okay. That's one that introduces chaos. Um, the request, like you said, you know, the FOMO at bedtime. I mean, sometimes they just like know what you guys are doing. Like, Oh, you're about to watch TV. Like I want to watch TV. right? Or, you know, I like now they're understanding books like, oh, that was a good book, but I want you to read this book too. Right. And it's just that they start adding things, but then we say yes, because in our mind, it's like, you know, oh, what's one more? What's, you know, that going to do? And it just, it snowballs and it teach, it basically teaches them to ask for something else.

6:40Cara Walker:Right. Cause now they're just like, well, how am I, you know, I don't want to go to bed. No kids want to go to bed, right? Like my kids are eight and said, my younger two, eight and seven. The 11-year-old will go to bed whenever he's tired. But I could be like, go take a bath. And they're like, no, I don't want to go to bed, right? Like it's just normal for a kid to just not want to go to bed. So once they realize that if they ask for this or they do that and it kind of prolongs it, it becomes like they know what they're doing. before we talk about specific struggles what is actually normal sleep behavior for toddlers in this age range okay so if like if i could choose right like this is what your little one is going to do right like someone comes to me i'm trying to fix whatever it is yeah my goals for a two-year-old and this is going to shock a lot of people is a three-hour nap and 11 to 12 hours at night.

7:36Cara Walker:Some two-year-olds are ready for a two-hour nap. They will be able to handle that. But I will tell you, most of them will still do three hours, which sounds crazy. That is crazy. And I'm so glad that we're having this conversation because I'm like, okay, well, then I just got another hour of free time with my day. I need to address something because my almost two-year-old is not sleeping three hours. So yeah. So most of the time, cause you know, a lot of times people will take what they can get, right. A nap is a nap, but if the nap is short, two hours is like the minimum. Like I am like that two hours is the lowest we're going to go with my clients.

8:19Cara Walker:Like there's no reason that they should be sleeping less than that. Um, it's normally timing to be honest. It's normally the timing of the nap in like correlation to what time they're starting their day usually so wait okay you said a three-hour nap two to three-hour nap 11 to 12 hours a day okay i'm not thrilled with 11 i'm a 12 i'm a fan of 12 i but some of them will wake early but yeah we could use it but so many people be like absolutely not like my kid's not gonna do that and like in five days they're doing it so i'm like okay there's this specific guilt that comes with motherhood where you feel like no matter what you do, it's not enough or it's not clean enough or you should be trying harder.

9:03Like you order something off of Amazon because you're tired and it's easy. And then you have this little voice that's going like, you didn't even check. You don't know what's in that. You're just putting that on your kids. And gosh, that voice is so mean. And I just want to say to you, you are not a bad mom for not having the time to research every single product like it's a part-time job. You're not. You're doing the best with the bandwidth that you have and that counts. That's why I love Truly Free Marketplace. It's basically like a clean Amazon. So yes, when you hear Truly Free Marketplace, it's connected to Truly Free Home where I get my laundry detergent and cleaning supplies from, but it's different.

9:46Again, this is like a clean Amazon shopping site. It takes some of that guilt off of you and gives you time back in your day because you're not having to research 500 different products to buy the one thing that you are wanting. You can filter by what actually matters to you, non-toxic, plant-based, non-GMO, whatever it is. And you're automatically looking at way better options instead of starting with just unlimited options that are full of junk. You still get to use your own judgment always, but you're not starting from zero and beating yourself up anymore. And it is free. They're running a deal right now that if you sign up, you get free lifetime membership.

10:30Eventually it'll be like Amazon Prime, but if you get in now, you're grandfathered in for free. And the link that I have for you below in the show notes gets you that free lifetime membership plus a$10 gift card just for signing up. So go take a little bit of that weight off of yourself. The link is in the show notes. So you said many times it comes down to timing of like when they start their day and their day. So for a two to three year old what do you think is a good yeah sleep day schedule so the two-year-old side i would

11:10Cara Walker:always this is where i always start to be honest so the two-year-old is um five hours awake in the morning okay so let's say they wake up at i don't know what time is your little one wake up for the day? Usually eight. I have a good, I have good sleepers. Okay. So then I would say their nap would start at one. Okay. If you, if the goal was a three hour nap, if the goal is a two hour nap, that nap would be at starting at two. But the interesting thing is, is that both of those ages, their naps are ending at the same time, right? So the link, those ages, meaning two versus three. Yeah. So whether they're on a three hour nap or a three-year-old is not going to be on a three hour nap.

11:49Cara Walker:I mean, they could, but they probably struggle to fall asleep at bedtime. So three-year-old is where I would cut it to two hours. But the two-year-old, let's say a two-year-old's taking a three-hour nap, a three-year-old's taking a two-hour nap. Both of those naps would, let's say in your scenario, would end at four o 'clock. Okay. And bedtime would be at eight o 'clock. So, so even though the nap is shorter, they're both ending at the same time because they both actually need the same amount of time awake before bed. So the time that's different is the wake before nap. So a three-year-old might need more time awake before their nap, whereas a two-year-old could use less.

12:24Cara Walker:But when it comes to wake window before bed, which this is where I think most people mess up, is that that four hours before bed between nap, wake up time and bedtime is that sweet spot. Otherwise, they wake up really early in the morning because your brain tells you like, oh if I can you know do five hours after nap they go to bed a little bit later maybe they'll sleep later and it's like the opposite and it starts to backfire dang I know which is weird I don't know I you know just like on paper it's because they become overtired and once they go to bed overtired and this is for any age because all babies wake between 4 a.m.

13:03Cara Walker:and 6 a.m. all of us everyone does right so when they go to bed overtired which means that wake window before bed was too long they can't go back to sleep during that light time frame so when someone tells me their little one wakes up at like 4 30 or 5 o 'clock and like they cannot get them back down and they're just like turning on the tv it's because the wake window before bed's too long okay they actually need to go to bed earlier which you're not having that problem if they're sleeping till eight no but the naps could be better um yeah just for the mom listening who has a three who has yeah like a three-year-old as opposed to a two-year-old when can we expect naps to stop

13:47Cara Walker:so this depends on if they go to school or not i think because most schools will here we're in florida schools will still nap in that four-year-old room so they foster that and they will keep that nap and then once they go to kinder i always tell people that summer before kindergarten you really got to start like introducing them to no nap. But a kid at that, that's, you know, at home, I mean, I feel like they'll nap until you expose them to not napping. Right. But if I, if someone came to me and was like my three and a half year old, isn't really napping that much. I wouldn't cite it. Right. If that makes sense.

14:31Cara Walker:So like, that's an appropriate time. But the biggest thing is that you're not just dropping the nap and like going throughout the whole day instead of that napping time they're doing quiet time so it's a shift right so let's say a three and a half year old is kind of like not napping but they're not fighting it because that's the biggest difference like if they're ready to not nap they're just laying in there chilling rolling around talking they're not like wreaking havoc and like losing their minds if that makes sense so that's kind of the one way you can tell but for me I would always just say like if I started to notice I'd like okay you can choose to sleep or you can choose to play with I would put like a little bin together and but but you're still you know I'll still come get you when it's time to get up right and a lot of times when they start to have that like possession they're owning that choice they'll try to choose to play and some days you'll notice that they fall asleep playing or they're you know playing with the toys but they're not getting up right like they're not in the living room they're not watching tv they're not in your space because they still need that like a mental downtime during the day so that break is where you're kind of making that transition does that make sense yeah so do you just keep quiet time instead of nap time at the same time The same time.

15:57Yep.

15:58Cara Walker:So the nap was from one to three. They're in their room from one to three. Once they got a little bit older, you know, and were more interested in things like my daughter, I would, you know, she would do Barbies or like, you know, actually play with toys. But I always kept it as like nothing that like lit up or saying like not an iPad, like none of that is like the stimulation still needs to be low. The boys would get into Legos, right. And they would have a Lego a table and they would like sit and like work on that. But obviously that's as they're getting older. Um, but my daughter started it at three.

16:32Cara Walker:She, I think she was still in her crib and I just put the bin of toys in her crib and I was like, you can choose. And you know, that kind of thing. Same with my son. She, I would say transition, sometimes girls transition sooner than boys do. that's interesting yeah for the you would think boys like just want to move and like you know then they'd be like forget nap time so that's i think with boys what we see more is like because this is a big thing that happens too is you know let's say the timing of the nap is off right and normally you put them down they lay down no problem but now for the last couple days you've been putting them down and they're kind of like walking back and forth or jumping or doing something in there, they're not going to sleep as quickly as they used to.

17:21Cara Walker:Instead of changing the timing of the nap, a lot of parents are like, oh, they must not want to nap anymore. And they go get them out. Then it's like, forget it. Now you just taught them, right? Like they're moving around in their space and then you've got them out. They don't have to nap anymore. Then something they played or that you put on a movie or whatever it was, you kind of just taught them like, oh, well, if you don't fall asleep, I'm going to get you up and let you do this instead. And then it's like, forget it. It's really hard to get back. Right. So that's where I always try to tell people like it, once they're old and they can understand, you know, okay, you're in your room, you can sleep, you can play.

17:57Cara Walker:It's your choice. It's a little bit easier to make that transition and it helps it stick. Like to this day, I mean, obviously they're older, but I still to this day on like a Saturday or Sunday, we can be like quiet time one to three, you're not allowed out. And if you come out, you're napping and they play in the room quietly, but it's like, they're used to it. You know what I mean? So I think it really depends on like, if you're exposing it to them from the beginning, they're not going to know any different. And it's just going to be like that time in your house. Um, but I do think that three and a half mark is where it's okay to drop the nap as long as they're ready.

18:34Cara Walker:Cause that plays a part too. Like if you're dropping a nap and like your whole afternoon is terrible, like that's not worth it. Right. Like now everyone's frustrated. like it's just too much no one's having fun right and then we as parents are just like losing it or you snap easily or you know it's just like you want to make sure that they're ready so how do you ensure though you know you're like i really need my kid to do nap time and not quiet time but if they're already transitioned out of a bed or out of a crib at three how do you make sure that they're doing nap time as opposed to quiet time?

19:13Cara Walker:So I first thought to back up a little bit. If they are three and out of their crib, three is it's appropriate, right? It's still on the younger side, like in a cognitive sense of like, for example, they're in their crib, right? They're not getting out. They're in their safe space. Once they're out of that crib, now they have this whole room. Okay. And if they can exit the room or once they figure out they can exit the room, now all of a sudden they have so much freedom that they, they can't control it. Like they don't know how to rein themselves in. So you can say, where's your bed? They're going to say right there.

19:54Cara Walker:Do you stay in your bed all night? Yes. Okay, great. Right. They know all of that. The second you leave though, and it's up to them to actually take control of their body, not Bonnie, but they're like positioned in that room, but they know that they're, that they can leave and get out. They're not going to be able to make that executive decision to stay in their bed or in their room. So I am a huge fan of using a safety handle on the door. So now their whole room is their crib. They can walk around. They're safe. They can't get out because truthfully in the middle of the night, you have a three-year-old roaming the house.

20:30Cara Walker:Like that's, that's not safe. right? Do you ever listen to an interview and think, okay, but I wish you would have asked this. Like you've got your own question for the guest sitting right there. Side the mom club, you actually get to ask it. See, here's how it works. Every month I do a bonus episode and I tell you guys ahead of time who I'm interviewing and what it's about. And then you send me the questions that you want asked. And we do a whole rapid fire segment where I go through and ask the I guess every single question the mom club besties sent in. It makes the whole thing feel like we built the interview together.

21:05You know, like you're not just listening on the other side of it. So if there's a question that you've been wishing someone would finally answer, this is your place. Come join us at learningtomompodcast.com slash join. It's in the show notes for you in case you forget. I cannot wait to have you inside. What are some signs that their sleep like could still improve or we're not quite there yet?

21:31Cara Walker:In regards to nighttime? Oh, I guess just in general, anything. So a couple of things. There's always like things that can be off, right? Like a picture perfect sleep schedule is going to be maybe that sleeps 12 hours. Baby, I know, or toddler. And then takes a two or three hour nap, right? Like that's perfect. Like what else could you ask for? Now, things that kind of like go sideways or you can identify that need fixed are what time they wake up in the morning. If they're waking before 6 a.m., that's considered a middle of the night waking, right? And a lot of people actually start their day that – their little ones day that early because they're like, well, I'm not going to wake up to bed.

22:17Especially, you know, breakfast, daycare. Like you got to go to work maybe by 7.30. Yeah.

22:23Cara Walker:So that, okay, let me step back. If like a schedule, like let's say you have your baby had to be up before six, that's obviously something you can't control. Right. But 6am or later is really what we want to see because they're ready for bed 12 hours. They're old. They're on a 12 hour day, right? Like that's what they can handle. That's what their bodies can handle. so if they're starting their day at 5 a.m they're ready for bed by 5 p.m and that's if they took a good nap so when they don't take a good nap and now you're you know wrestling with less than that 12 hour a day they're not napping they're so overtired that they're not getting that actual rest that they need so that's where you know if we do it's very very rare though i will tell you that someone needs their kid up every single day before six.

23:16You know, like most of the time I,

23:19Cara Walker:I haven't really, I ran into like the opposite where they, they stay up late, right. They'll be on like a 10 to 10 schedule. Um, but that early there's usually a parent that is able to accommodate a later waking. Okay. If I'm, you know what I mean? Like, um, but of course, if that's the case, they're waking up that early, you'd have to make it work. But if you are just like, get to work by nine, right? Like the goal is they're starting their day after 6 PM AM, because realistically, you're never able to get them to bed before 6 PM, you know? Yeah. yeah no that's good so what about um nighttime wakings how do we address that so this is like a can of worms because a nighttime waking all kids wake up in the night all of them right now you just don't know it right if your kid sleeps through the night you don't know that they're waking up they're just stirring they're rolling over they're grabbing something and they're going back to bed.

24:26Cara Walker:Okay. That's what we call an independent sleeper. So that child most likely goes into that crib or bed awake. You leave the room. Good night. I love you. And they're fine until morning. You run into the middle of the night wakings when a parent is with them until they fall asleep. Okay. Whether that's laying with them or if they're still in a crib, maybe they're rocking them or maybe they're still taking some type of like milk or water to fall asleep, anything like that, when they wake up in the middle of the night, their brain goes to the last thing that they remember. Okay. So let's say someone rocks their two-year-old to sleep.

25:01Cara Walker:They put them in the crib, right? All is well. They leave, they go on with their night, right? That child is going to wake up after at least five hours the most, okay? Like a nighttime sleep cycle is typically four to five hours. When they wake up and that person is gone, they're like, Like, wait a minute. Like it's that panic of like, last thing I remember I was with them. Now they're not here. Now I'm in a crib and they're gone. Right. So that they left me, that whole panic sets in. They're going to stand up and start crying because their goal is to get you back. Right. Like they need that process again in order to fall back asleep.