Vaccines & Kids: How to Make Informed Decisions Without the Fear with Dr. Joel Warsh | Ep. 116

0:00Hey, before we start, don't forget that I'm reimbursing two besties who join for the entire year at the bestie tier during the month of November. So yes, two of you will get your whole year free. So if you've been dilly-dallying, waiting for the perfect time to join the mom club, this is it. Head to learningtomompodcast.com slash join, choose the bestie tier, and sign up for the annual plan to be entered to be reimbursed for the whole year. I can't wait to become real mom friends inside. Oh, and of course, that's in the episode show notes below for you. Hi, mom friend. It's Layla, just welcoming you to the Learning to Mom podcast.

0:44Here we discuss all things motherhood so you can be empowered and educated without feeling overwhelmed. Each expert guest comes with their own perspective and background. So please note that the content presented in this podcast is designed for general educational purposes only and is not a substitute for personalized professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. You're going to get a lot out of this week's episode. So let's get right into it. Hi, Dr. Joel. Welcome to the Learning to Mom podcast. Thanks for having me on. I'm excited to chat. Yeah, no, I think this is going to be good. So we got a lot to cover today.

1:19Let's just dive in. But before we do, can you introduce yourself to listeners, please? Sure. I'm a pediatrician. I work in Los Angeles, California. I practice integrative medicine. So I try to balance the best of both worlds. I did all the regular medical training, not against Western medicine at all. I just try to balance things when I can and try to offer natural remedies whenever it's safe and makes sense to do. And so that's the way we practice in our office. And that's what I've been doing for the last decade or so. In all of that, you didn't mention your book. Oh, that's fair. Well, I've been working on vaccine stuff more recently.

1:57It was always something that I got asked about a lot when it comes to vaccines. And I grew up not really holistically minded, you know, particularly, I would say I really my eyes opened up when I met my now wife during residency pediatrics training, and she's very holistic minded. So I certainly got a different viewpoint on some of these things. And that kind of led me to start learning about integrative medicine. And then once I got into it, I was like, Oh, this makes a lot of sense. This is totally reasonable. Now you kind of hear it's like, Oh, woo woo and out there, which really isn't when you're talking about diet or exercise is pretty basic stuff, but we're not really taught a lot about it in medicine.

2:31So that kind of took me on that path. But as you're in the integrative space, a lot of people have questions about vaccines. That's why people come to the office all the time that those are the questions I get online a lot, you know, more than anything else. And it was really a censored topic for so long. It was really frustrating that we couldn't really talk about it. And I always wanted to, but I just didn't really other than in the office. But with the pandemic, you know, I got really frustrated. A lot of people got really frustrated, especially around the fact that you couldn't talk about things and ask questions.

3:00I'm not against vaccines. I just think that we should be able to make our own choices and people should be given the option and informed consent and should be able to do whatever they think is best for their family. And in my office, we have patients that do that regular schedule, some that do a slow schedule, some don't do it, most do a slow schedule of some sorts. And that's really what the conversations are usually around. But I really wanted to write a book. And I decided during the pandemic that I would and write a book about vaccines because there really isn't a lot of balanced information out there.

3:28And even when I was in practice for a long time, people say, oh, what should I read? And I have to give them two or three different sources because very pro vaccine book gives you one story, a very anti vaccine book gives you a very different story. And it's hard to know what to trust in that world. So I think, you know, a more balanced approach was needed. And that's what I tried to do. Well, and that's why I'm so thrilled to have you on, I think, because to your point, it's really freaking hard to find someone who's middle of the road because this is such like a polarizing topic. And I am curious, why do you think it's become so polarizing?

4:05I think it's so polarizing because, I mean, a number of reasons, but I think there's a lot of money at hand when it comes to pharma and they have a lot of incentive to make sure that people keep getting their shots and continue to do that. So there's a lot of money and a lot of push behind vaccines. There has been for a long time. And I think that we don't even realize it in medical training. We don't realize it in medicine in general, just how much we're marketed to by these companies. And they fund the news. Most of the news, they fund the research, they fund the journals, they fund the med schools, they fund the CDC and the NIH and all these things.

4:38It's not because they're benevolent companies. It's because they know if they fund a politician, then in the future, you're more likely to be favorable to their products. And it's not nefarious. It's just logical. But we are here. And doctors really absolutely believe in vaccines and they feel very strongly about it. And there were a lot of diseases that we used to have that were pretty bad that we don't really see much of anymore. So I think there's a very almost religious aspect to it when it comes to medicine of the fact that this is like something we can do and something great that we have.

5:08There hasn't been a lot of discussion or even debate over pros and cons, risks and benefits. It's a lot of do it just because. And we haven't really seen the other side much. Or if it is, it's like, oh, they're an anti-vaxxer. They're crazy, which isn't the case. A lot of people that have questions are not anti-vax at all. They just have questions. Yeah. When you say that you practice integrative medicine, what does that mean? To me, it means balancing the best of Western medicine with alternative practices. So supplements, herbs, preventative medicine. So thinking about diet, sleep, exercise, those kind of things.

5:43So just balancing a little bit more discussion on prevention and not always jumping to a medication right away unless you really need it. Okay. Easy peasy. I love how you don't beat around the bush. I'm going to be honest. You're just like, you know what you're trying to say, Dr. Joel, and I really appreciate that. I do want to kind of get more into your book. Can we start doing that route? Sure, please. First and foremost, I want to talk about why you call it the first rule of vaccine club and what that is. I want to talk about that. For between in a shot and a hard place, one of the things I wanted to kind of start off with was talking about the background of vaccines, but also just this mentality that we have when it comes to vaccines of, you know, calling people anti-vaxxers if they even ask questions, like we mentioned, or labeling people right away.

6:37And it's weird because you just you feel like you can't talk about it. You feel like it's a vaccine club. And, you know, like with Fight Club, the first rule is don't talk about it. And that's what it seemed to be. It still seems that way. I mean, it's a little better now, for sure. It's undisensored. And thankfully, even since the books come out, I mean, I'm surprised. I thought when I was in the book came out, I get a lot of hate. Not really so far. It's been really positive and wonderful, which is fantastic. But that wasn't the way that it was even six months ago or a year ago. But you really just could never talk about it because as soon as you talked about it, your platform gets shut down.

7:07A lot of people did during the pandemic, even if they had reasonable questions, even if they were right, which a lot of people got their platforms taken down, were actually correct about the things they got their platform taken down for. And so there was this feeling like you can't talk about it because you'd be canceled or kind of shunned for asking reasonable questions that intelligent parents have or intelligent doctors have. And so it's like a vaccine club where you just can't talk about it, which is really unfortunate. So when you are trying to have a conversation with your doctor about this and you're trying to make a decision as a parent, I feel like still today that kind of rings true even in doctor's offices.

7:45Oh, yeah. I mean, for sure. So it depends on the doctor. Obviously, there are all kinds of different doctors out there with all sorts of different opinions. But by far, still, the mainstream opinion is, you know, vaccines are up on a pedestal. and I won't take anybody that doesn't go on the regular schedule or I'm not open to having discussions. If you don't want to vaccinate, you're one of those crazy woo woo parents and I don't want to deal with you. And a lot of practices do just kick you out if you don't want to go on the regular schedule, even if you just start asking questions about it, which I think is wrong.

8:13I think personally that you should be able to ask questions. You should be able to have discussions with your doctor. I don't think a parent who even wants to go on a slow schedule or wants to do anything different should feel like you can't ask questions, you should feel like you can ask anything and have a discussion. And you may agree or disagree with what the doctor says, but that's fine, you know, at the end of the day, but you should be able to talk about it at least. And I think it's really unfortunate that medicine has dug its feet in the sand. And many practices are really pushing back and not taking patients with individuals who don't want to do the regular schedule.

8:45But on the other side, I mean, you don't really want to be at a practice where if you have questions or you don't want to do the exact schedule, and they're forcing you to do it, that's probably not the right practice for you. So ultimately, I think it comes down to some honesty and asking questions and having those discussions. And if it isn't a good fit, it's not a good fit. There's a lot of doctors out there and you don't need to be at that practice. There are a lot of other doctors that would work with you, especially if you want to do a slow schedule. It's harder to find someone that takes patients that don't vaccinate.

9:11There certainly are doctors, but fewer. But a lot of doctors will work with individuals who just want to go slower. So there are plenty of places you could go, but you have to ask those questions. No, you bring up a good point. So how do you start having these conversations with your doctor? Because I think a lot of times we're scared to ask these hard questions because, I don't know, we just like clam up as soon as someone is wearing a lab coat. Yeah. Well, I mean, ideally you would have these conversations before you pick a doctor. So, you know, if you're going to a new doctor, if you're having a new baby, if you haven't been somewhere, you're moving, whatever it is, then ideally you're interviewing.

9:46And this is for someone who wants to do something different. If you want to do the regular schedule, it's pretty easy, right? You don't have to ask all these questions. But if you want to do a slow schedule or not vaccinate, then you really should be asking those questions up front and saying like, hey, you know, these are my beliefs. Is that OK? And honestly, a lot of times you don't even have to ask the questions anymore. Like a lot of offices on their website will be like, you know, we vaccinate on schedule. They'll put it right there if they're going to kick you out. So, I mean, look at that first.

10:11But if not or you can't tell, then just ask questions. And then I think that's really it. Like it's just being honest. You don't want to be somewhere that doesn't want to have you. So just bring it up in the interview or if it's something that which I think is a little more difficult for the family who, you know, maybe you've been at a practice for a year or two years. And for whatever reason, you're changing your mind now, like maybe you read a book or you watched the show or you had a friend that had a bad reaction or you had a bad reaction, you know, which has happened a lot this last couple of years, right?

10:39A lot of parents didn't really think much about vaccines and then got COVID shots and then had a bad reaction. And so you have a lot of people that were not skeptical, being more skeptical now because they didn't really think about vaccines for a very long time. And then they go, well, I watched what happened during the pandemic. I watched the mixed messaging. I watched my friend have a reaction. I had a bad reaction, whatever it was. And so they say, well, you know, maybe I'm not so comfortable doing all the vaccines on schedule anymore. Like I'm not against them necessarily, but maybe I just want to do one at a time.

11:11So we definitely are seeing more of that. And I think you just have to talk to them about it and say like, here's a reason why. Here's what I'm thinking. Are you okay with that. And they may or may not be, but I think you got to bring it out. So if you love the Learning to Mom podcast and wish we could be a little closer, like actually be mom friends, you could be in my book club, ask questions, and we can keep chatting after the episode ends, then you're going to love the Mom Club on Patreon. I created it because I wanted to support you on a deeper level. There's only so much I can do within a podcast episode.

11:48But inside our mom club on Patreon, we can really talk, connect, and grow together. You get to be a part of my monthly book club where we meet every month on Zoom to discuss a parenting book, chit-chat and hang. You get access to each episode early, and you get an exclusive phenomenal episode every month. And for the month of November, I'm reimbursing two besties who join for the entire year at the bestie tier. So yes, two of you will get your whole year free. So if you've been dilly-dallying, waiting for the perfect time to join the mom club, this is it. Head to learningtomompodcast.com slash join, choose the bestie tier, and sign up for the annual plan to be entered to be reimbursed for the whole year.

12:38I can't wait to become real mom friends inside. Oh, and of course, that's in the episode show notes below for you. Do you have any like go to questions when figuring out. If your child should receive the vaccine X, Y, Z. So you go to the doctor and they're like, OK, today they're scheduled to receive blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. What kind of thing should we be asking? It depends if you want to do anything, anything different. I mean, I think that's where the research comes in before. And if you want to do the regular schedule, I mean, that's what's recommended. That's the only thing that I can recommend.

13:14And other than that, I never tell people what to do. I don't tell people what to do in my office. I don't tell people what to do in the book. I talk about risks versus benefits. And ultimately, people have to make decisions that's right for them. If you're going to do the regular schedule, then that's what you're going to do. If you're going to do anything else, then there isn't really the science or data to back up a slower alternate schedule. It really just comes down to your personal preference of what your comfort is. And some people want to do one at a time. Some people want to space it out more.

13:41Some people don't want to do any for a few months and just start later. So that really depends on your personal comfort level. Now, how do you decide if you're going to do a slow schedule, what to do? That is, it's so different for everybody. So that's why it's hard to give one answer, but usually people weigh the risks versus the benefits of what they know. And generally the way that people choose is, okay, so what's around the most of those things that are around the most, what could actually kill my kid or what's most likely to cause them serious harm. And they weigh that against the things that are not very common, not around very much.

14:12Then people tend to do those ones that are more common first and maybe push some of those other ones later. I mean, there's no guarantee because you could be the one kid that could get whatever and get really sick. So there's no way to know exactly what you should or shouldn't get, but you can play the odds. And the things that are more common would be like whooping cough and measles, homophilus, pneumococcus. Like these are things that are around. None of them are very common, but they're more common than like polio, which we haven't had in 30, 40 years in America. So you can even weigh against those two things.

14:40And you can say, well, if I'm going to not do something today, like maybe I'll push polio back later because probably they're not going to be exposed to polio. You could be the first kid to be exposed, but it's just less likely. So that's usually how people weigh things. Similar to hepatitis B. Could you get hepatitis B? Of course you could, but the chances of somebody bleeding on you are pretty small. So you're most likely going to be okay if you push that one out a little farther. That's a personal choice. So how do we kind of figure out which schedule we feel comfortable with? What are our options?

15:09That's a good question without any great answer, because nothing's really ever been studied here other than the regular schedule. Right. So anything outside of that, it really goes back to, again, that's up to you. It's what you're comfortable doing. Are you comfortable doing one at a time? Are you comfortable doing two at a time? Are you comfortable doing none? And then if you're comfortable, OK, when do you want to start? So some people might start at six months or two years or three years. but ultimately that's up that's up to you there isn't anything outside of that schedule so you do have to do some research and you do have to read and you have to think about it if you want to go outside because usually you're going to be proposing that to the doctor ultimately they're not going to tell you to do something different than the regular schedule because you can i mean it's not based on anything it's not based on research or science it's more i don't want to do multiple vaccines at once because i want to decrease the load that their body's going to handle i just don't feel comfortable doing it so i'd rather space them out i don't have a problem with that personally.

15:57Like, I think that's okay. It's very minimal risk. I mean, obviously, whatever you decide to not do, you have a little bit risk. If you get exposed to that thing, then you don't have the protection, but mostly you're still getting them all anyways. So I think that that's where, for me, if people want to do it and they're more comfortable doing it slowly, then that's fine. And I think that's okay. And you're still getting them done. And ultimately, you're going to get that protection that the vaccines afford you. But your question is a good one without a great answer, because these aren't the kind of discussions we've had ever before.

16:25I feel like I'm having these for the first time. And it's great. That's why I'm doing this. I wrote the book to literally have these discussions, to have some debates, to talk to doctors, to parents. And so we can discuss these questions because ultimately the answer to a lot of them is we don't actually know. That's the difficult part. A lot of the takeaway from even the deep research that I've done is there are just a lot of things that we still have some information that we just don't totally know yet. We just haven't researched these things. So we're like, oh, they're safe. They're effective.

16:48It's good. Go do it. And then that's it. And we kind of keep it there. And a lot of parents who are savvy and a lot of people that are pushing back have a lot of questions on vaccines and a lot of the questions they have don't specifically have answers because it's never really been studied in that way. Right. And now it's time for this week's segment of MomMail. If you're new here, this is the part of the show where I answer a listener submitted situation or scenario. Basically, you write in your tricky situation and I give you advice only a real mom friend would give. Here's the email we're answering this week.

17:24Hi, Leila. First, I wanted to say I absolutely love listening to your podcast and being a part of the mom club. I'm a first time mom of a 14 month old girl and found your podcast on Instagram when I was four months pregnant with her and I listened to every single episode and truly can't get enough. Sorry, this is so long, but I wanted to make sure you have context so you can really give me some advice. I sometimes feel like the mental load slash taking care of the house is all on me. My husband is a great dad and we have an incredible marriage, don't get me wrong, but sometimes he does not do his part to help carry the load of everything.

17:57He does have a physical labor job full-time. I am the default parent. I'm a stay-at-home mom. I have expressed my feelings to my husband a few times and we can always have a level-headed conversation where we both agree to make sure we are carrying our weight and being there for each other when one of us is feeling overwhelmed. The last time this happened, he said during our conversation about it, just tell me what you want me to do. I'll do anything you want or need, but just tell me. He truly meant well when he said that, but he is missing the point. That would add to my mental load. I wish he would just see that a bottle is in the sink and needs to be washed and the trash is getting really full and needs to be taken out, etc.

18:34I tried to explain to him that sometimes at that point, it's just less mentally exhausting to just do said thing myself having to tell someone to do xyz i don't need him to always notice things and do them but when i'm feeling overwhelmed overstimulated and burnt out that's when i need him to step up without me having to tell him what would you do in my situation thank you so much for all you do for the mom club and for the work you put in on your podcast we all need a mom friend like you no this was a lot not a lot as in like you wrote too long of an email as in like what you're going through is a lot and i feel this on a daily basis.

19:14Also being a working slash stay at home mom, I understand completely where you are coming from. And I know that there are so many women listening here who feel the same way. So at the time of when I'm like recording this mom meal, just last week, in the mom club, we read the book, How Not to Hate Your Husband After Kids, is what we read, and shared all of that in the book club discussion and everything. But I think for your specific scenario, there's another book that I would actually recommend for you to read. And granted, I have not read it, but it continues to pop up for me, and guests have continued to reference it.

19:56And it is called fair play. And it talks about exactly what you're talking about of actually helping lessen the mental load. So instead of you having to be the one that initiates everything, this is just an example. He handles everything trash related. He handles collecting the trash, putting it in our trash bins, moving them out to the street, moving them back in, making sure that if the trash truck couldn't come in because there was snow and it got rescheduled. Like he's in charge of being on top of that. He handles all of that. And maybe you handle all doctor's appointments. So you handle taking the kid to the doctor's office, the rescheduling, the figuring out what they need next, researching the vaccines, and then of course having a conversation with your husband about it.

20:46But like you're the front leader there. So that's just an example of that division. And it's not on you then to handle the trash. Like you can completely step away from the trash. I mean, this is again, just an example for anyone listening. Or if you give him, you're in charge of soccer. So you're in charge of finding which soccer program to sign them up for, getting them signed up, finding them cleats, driving them to the practice and the games, packing the team snack when it's time to volunteer to be the parent that brings the snack. Like that is your duty. That is the advice that I would give specifically for Fair Play.

21:28I can't personally recommend the book because I haven't had a chance to read it. I am hoping that Book Club chooses to read it in the future because every month, as you know, we vote on the next book to read and the date for when we'll meet to talk about it. And so that is a book that I would love to read in the future, but I just haven't yet. And I think you're going to find a lot of relief from truly divvying up the things. And I also know that it's hard when they're gone all day and it's like physical. So I'm just thinking perhaps in your instance, like as one mom friend to another, it would probably be helpful if he had the role completely of like handling bedtime.

22:07So brushing teeth, saying the prayer, singing the song, turning lights off and then going to bed. I'm assuming you being the stay-at-home mom you're making dinner and then you're probably cleaning up another good mental load division is if you're making dinner he does dishes that's what we do in our house we divide gifts so like he handles gifts and thank yous for everyone on his side and I handle gifts and thank you cards for everyone on my side and that has helped a lot so just finding little ways that he can take ownership of the whole task so you never have to nag. I hope that that was helpful.

22:53The mental load conversation is so difficult to have with our spouses, I think, because it's just something that they can't relate to at all. And it's funny because when I think about that, I'm like, there's been plenty of times of something that I just I haven't been able to relate to until I was pregnant and I became a mom, right? Like, I would never have understood so many things. I mean, just the simple example of like what it's like to be nauseous 24-7 in your first trimester. I thought I knew what that would feel like or expected it to feel one way. And then it felt so much worse. Oh, so much harder once I actually went through it.