Legal AF - 4/4/26

23:29Michael Popok:And he says at the end of his order, you read from the beginning, at the end of his order, he says, good news, President, my paraphrase, you've got time. Go to Congress. You control it. Go to Congress. Try to get an authorization. They may even find money for you. But what you're doing now and comparing pools and, you know, every major project in the last 150 years for the White House has been approved by Congress. The North Portico, the South Portico, right? The total renovation and remodeling and gutting during Truman's time to replace AC and wiring and plumbing, all approved. Even Donald Trump in 2019.

24:14Michael Popok:And all he was doing is putting up a fence. He knew he had to go to Congress to get an approval. That took nine months. And now that Donald Trump has figured out if he controls these two committees, because some people coming into the show tonight be like, didn't they just approve this? Sort of. The Fine Arts Commission, completely under Donald Trump's control, spent a total of 12 minutes approving his plans. 12 minutes. I joked with people that I had to appear before a planning board in New York to get some shutters and a flagpole approved. It took me a year and a half and a three-hour hearing.

24:53Okay?

24:55Michael Popok:And I wasn't knocking down the East Wing, if you know what I mean. Then it goes to the National Planning Commission, which on Thursday voted again in record time to approve the ballroom. But that's not congressional approval. These are just committees along the way that have to approve that Donald Trump has taken control of, much like the Kennedy Center and the rest. And so what you and I thought, and I did a hot take on this right after, I think Monday or Tuesday, after our Saturday together last week. And I said, we know some judges watch our show. Attention, Judge Leon. As you know, there's a big hearing on Thursday, this past Thursday, for the National Planning Commission.

25:38Michael Popok:You've been sitting on your injunction since the beginning of March. Now would be a good time. And all of a sudden, lo and behold, he issues the injunction, the red tag stop work order. Now, back to your video clip. Trump fancies himself some sort of Bob the Builder. You know, I'm the builder. I'm the, you know, I'm Robert Moses. I'm, you know, I'm the ones who built the pyramids in Egypt. You know, he's all things. But he can't understand the comment that the judge made, which was, I acknowledge that there's a giant hole of Donald Trump's own making next to the White House. I'm stopping the vertical construction.

26:15Michael Popok:And he lists all the things, landscaping, excavation, foundation work, vertical construction, everything related to the ballroom except secure the site. Secure. Now, if the judge had been guided by people who do construction law, and I've done a fair amount of construction law and litigation in my career, he would have used sort of a different term of art. He would have said you're allowed to secure the site. Get a tarp over it. Get some sandbags out there. make sure nobody can crawl into the White House from a hole that you created. That's called securing the job site. That's the language he should have used.

26:51Michael Popok:What he used was, if it relates to the security of the White House, you can do that, but don't do anything else towards contributing towards the ballroom. Donald Trump was like, security? Ballroom? Oh, I can continue to build. So within an hour or two of that video you just played, Greg Craig, who's representing the National Trust, filed his motion for clarification, which is still sitting with the judge, which points to that very video you just played and says, see, judge, he's intentionally misinterpreting your order. And he thinks he can still build his ballroom with your red tag on it. So now we're waiting, what we're waiting for, and I'll do an update on Substack Live for Legal AF or something like that, when the judge issues his order of clarification.

27:38Michael Popok:I think he should. And I'm glad that they ran in for a motion for clarification. I'll tell you why. And this is where you and I sort of nerd out on procedure. There was one error that was made in an order that you and I covered extensively when Judge Curry fired Lindsay Halligan, found her illegally appointed as a U.S. attorney. But the language that she used was a little bit loose about whether there needed to be an appointment of if she was thrown out of the job and enjoined from going back to work and the process that was necessary or acknowledged to fill that spot. And that kept Lindsay Halligan in her role for another four months as the Department of Justice says, that only applies to this case, or that doesn't apply overall, and this and that.

28:27Michael Popok:All she had to do, and all the lawyers really needed to do, was file, and I thought they were going to, file a motion for clarification to get Judge Curry to fixer order. Judges can do it sometimes on their own, like if they see it. But you should not, if you want to be, you got to be on top of things with the Trump administration. You can't, as you've said, you give him a finger, he takes your whole life. You give him a little bit of a vague language in an order. Oh, I can build the ballroom. So I, kudos to the lawyers for the National Trust to running back in quickly with a motion for clarification to get that order resolved.

29:01Michael Popok:What's the end result? Trump, if he feels he's got the votes and you think he'd do it now before the midterms when he certainly is not going to have them, he would try to get the House and the Senate to approve this ballroom, maybe fund it and blame the Democrats or whatever. instead, or they could do a parallel, at the same time, fight the case to the appellate court, which is the next stop based on the ruling by Judge Leon, and then maybe throw a hand grenade into the Supreme Court, which John Roberts definitely, as we'll see later in our next segments or so, definitely does not want or need about whether he's got the power to tear down half the White House as they're trying to get the heck out of Washington and drop their last order by June.

29:50Michael Popok:But that is, so there'll be that, there'll be weather, and I haven't heard of maybe, and maybe Scott McFarland, when we have him back on and he does his reporting, maybe he can figure out from his visits on Capitol Hill, whether there's any move afoot by the Trump administration to try to double track this and get the House and the Senate to approve the ballroom. The end result is what you and I have said from the very beginning. Whether it's the ballroom or the Kennedy center naming or his attempts to put his name on a peace institute or on money or whatever he's trying to do, you know, as any super narcissist tries to do when they know they're about to get thrown out of office or be made lame duck.

30:27Michael Popok:We're going to have to fix all this, you know, much like they tore down the Saddam Hussein statues after that regime fell. We're going to be left spending taxpayer dollars, you know, doing something with the ballroom, maybe putting the East Wing back up, you know, taking chiseling the names off of everything, taking the arc to triumph down, whatever he's, whatever he's building now, we're going to have to live with and fix in the future. And he's just hoping that we don't have the political will or money to do it. I think we do.

30:55Ben Meiselas:Oh, we're going to do it. It's going to be great. We are going to rejoice those moments where the statues come down and the names come down. Ooh, Midas Touch Network will be right there with our Washington, D.C. Bureau with the people, as always. One other thing I want to point out, Donald Trump's been lying and saying that the funds are coming from all private donors and that there's no public funds in all of this. First off, that doesn't matter in the analysis. You can't usurp congressional's power of the purse. And this is one of the things that Judge Leon said by having private individuals, billionaire buddies of yours, right-wing oligarchs, you know, fund this thing.

31:34Ben Meiselas:By the way, Congress, if they want to, can allow those private right wing oligarch people to fund it. But it's got to be codified in a law so that we know it's actually happening. Right. And it's not BS. And it's just being we're being told that's what happening. But that's not what's happening. So if Donald Trump's just saying the ballroom is a shed and the real purpose is the bunker and it's all this national security purposes, We shouldn't have right wing oligarchs funding the national security apparatus. And that's not what they're doing. I mean, we likely know that I'm sure there's hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayer money that's going into this new bunker and that's going into White House renovations.

32:15Ben Meiselas:And by the way, when you looked at Donald Trump's latest 2027 budget, where it has one point five trillion dollars in military spending while cutting major social programs and health care and housing and urban development programs to help low income people get houses and cuts FEMA and it cuts the NIH and so many other things. It has around$350 million, interesting number, because it's right around the number that Donald Trump said the East Wing ballroom renovations would be. It has about$350 million for renovations, another$150 million for miscellaneous renovations. And so where's that money going to?

32:53Ben Meiselas:So a lot of money is going to White House renovations that's in that 2027 budget. And that doesn't even include the bunker, because I think those things would be included in the military appropriations portion in that one point five trillion dollar number, which increases the military budget 40 percent from the prior year, basically 100 percent from when Biden was in office. And it's the biggest year over year increase in military spending since World War Two. And Donald Trump was on video saying we don't have enough money for health care. We don't have enough money for social programs. We're a big country.

33:31Ben Meiselas:OK, we have to spend the money on war. A direct quote from Donald Trump at the end of last week. All right, let's take our first break of the show. If you or someone you know has been injured in a car accident, a trucking accident, injured by the negligence of a company or negligence of others, or if you know somebody who's been injured by the negligence of others, or maybe you know a family who's looking for a lawyer because one of their loved ones was killed in an accident, don't be shy. Call the Popoc firm today. Call or text 877-POPOC-AF or visit thepopocfirm.com. Popoc's firm gives you a free consultation.

34:08Ben Meiselas:Lots of Legal AF listeners and viewers have called the Popoc firm or went to the website, and Popoc's representing a lot of people. So don't be shy. You trust him and he fights for you. 877-POPOC-AF or visit thepopocfirm.com. Also, make sure you subscribe to the Legal AF sub stack and also make sure you subscribe on the Legal AF YouTube channel. Let's get that YouTube channel 2 million subscribers. All right, let's take our first break of the show. That was a long segment, but we covered a lot of topics. We will be right back after a quick break.

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37:16Ben Meiselas:Welcome back to LEGALAF. Thank you to all of our sponsors for making this show possible. Discount codes for those sponsors are in the description below and use those discount codes. I know Jordi and Popak work hard on bringing you some good discount codes. So Pam Bondi, Pam Bondi was fired this past week, according to reports. She was begging to keep her job. Apparently, Donald Trump told her right before he gave that disastrous address to the nation regarding the war in Iran, whatever the hell that was supposed to be. He was seen in a car with Bondi earlier in the day. And then he apparently told her right before that speech the next morning.

37:53Ben Meiselas:He fired her that night he fired her and then it was announced publicly. And again, we heard that she was begging for her job. Please don't do this. Please don't fire me. But Pam Bondi was fired. There were people who were saying, ah, maybe it's because she tipped off Eric Swalwell about an FBI investigation or the FBI was going to release an investigative file into Swalwell's background or with a Chinese spy or whatever they attack Swalwell for. Swalwell's like, you think I'm talking to Bondi? Like, what are you talking about? Like, that never happened. I mean, but I think we all know what the issue was.

38:28Ben Meiselas:I mean, Bondi was not able to cover up the Epstein files the way Donald Trump thought she was going to do. The cover up was botched. And this was an attempt to be like, all right, Bondi's gone. So I guess we just don't have to talk about Epstein anymore, right? We've moved beyond that. And, you know, the Democrats to their credit right away came out with statements saying, nope, Pam Bondi is still under subpoena, not in her capacity as attorney general, as the name Pam Bondi. She needs to show up before the House Oversight Committee on April 14. She doesn't get out of that deposition just because she got fired.

39:02Ben Meiselas:And also, we're not going to stop investigating the Epstein files and digging up the cover up. And there's still millions of documents that have not been produced that are still being covered up. There are still major portions of the investigation that are being covered up. I mean, we were talking about like money laundering investigations into Epstein. That whole file apparently has been covered up. Drug trafficking investigations into Epstein that ran adjacent to his child sex trafficking ring. Same thing with his money laundering ring, that entire investigation and the portions therein, you know, being covered up.

39:38Ben Meiselas:And so Pam Bondi is out. Attorney General is now an acting Attorney General, Todd Blanche. People were saying, is it going to be Lee Zeldin, the EPA director? Is he going to be the next Attorney General? Whoever becomes the AG has to be Senate confirmed. And obviously, lots of people feel that Todd Blanche, based upon his involvement in covering up the Epstein files and being Donald Trump's former criminal defense attorney and working with Ghislaine Maxwell to move her into club fed over in Camp Bryant in Texas and all of the things that he said that he's really not someone the Senate can confirm and that his hearing for a confirmation if Trump tried to make him the attorney general would be a complete and utter disaster.

40:23Ben Meiselas:But we'll keep you posted there. Meanwhile, you had lots of federal prosecutors across the country who are the career prosecutors who have not quit or been fired, rejoicing that Pam Bondi's gone. They were posting photos or sending photos to the media of throwing out Pam Bondi's portrait, and they threw out her portrait right away. One of the stories Pam Bondi would always try to tell is that when she first became Attorney General, she saw that Biden's portrait and Merrick Garland had not been taken down in one of the offices. And so she took it down herself. And then she basically disciplined and retaliated against one of the top career federal prosecutors who dealt with national security issues for and blamed that guy for keeping the portraits up.

41:11Ben Meiselas:And that was kind of a story that was told amongst the federal prosecutorial community right away about just what an evil individual that she was. But her legacy will always be shame and, you know, all the disgusting things she did most prominently covering up the child sex trafficking ring. But I'll show you what Todd Blanche said, you know, even when you have Jesse Waters, kind of the Fox chief propagandist right now, telling, you know, looking at the acting attorney general, Todd Blanche, like, I'm not sure you really understand the way people feel about these Epstein files. I'll show you what Todd Blanche had to say with Jesse Waters right after the news of Pam Bondi being fired.

41:53Ben Meiselas:Here's what Todd Blanch said about the Epstein files. Let's play. Now, the Epstein files, you'd agree not handled well. And I don't. First of all, I have never heard President Trump say that the attorney general was that anything that happened to her had anything to do with the Epstein files. And so, look, the Epstein files has been a saga that's lasted for the entire for the past year. And what happened when the president signed the Transparency Act is that a problem of justice has now released all the files with respect to the Epstein saga. And the Attorney General Bondi and I appeared in front of Congress voluntarily a couple weeks ago to answer any questions they had.

42:31Ben Meiselas:We have made every single congressman, senator available to come and see any document redacted, unredacted that they want. And so I think that to the extent that the Epstein files was a part of the past year of this Justice Department, it should not be a part of anything going forward. Michael Popak, what do you make of it all?

42:51Michael Popok:I think one of the reasons that people, we're going to go through the reasons Pam Bondi was fired, but I think one of the reasons to come to Legal AF and trust what you and I do is to get some value add, right? You've heard the headline, Pam Bondi out, right? But the ramifications of that, the dominoes from that, the impact politically and legally and our legal institutions of it. I think that's what people want to hear. Try to cover that here. Pam Bondi, to refute the talking point from MAGA and even from Donald Trump, she died the death of a thousand paper supercuts because she's incompetent.

43:34Michael Popok:And Donald Trump at least needed the head, no, the

43:43Michael Popok:imaginary head of the Department of Justice, because Donald Trump has made it clear that he is the head of the Department of Justice, that he is the chief law enforcement officer. He has said it. And if people found that unsettling, when the criminal in chief, felon in chief, told the American people, good news, everybody, I'm in charge of the Department of Justice. There is no barrier. There is no independence. It is an executive branch office. It will sit in the White House literally and meet with me about cases and about outcomes. And Pam Bondi will be my communicator about these issues. And she's a terrible communicator.

44:20Michael Popok:He knew that, though. I think loyalty got her the job. Not the first choice. When you and I did our reporting about the transition team, the first choice on the org chart for the head of the Department of Justice was Aileen Cannon. It was leaked. The list was leaked. Never denied by the transition team, let alone Judge Cannon. We'll talk about her when we get to the Supreme Court next. And then when that didn't pan out, with Todd Blanche as the number two even then, despite him trying out for the job, for the moment he left Codwallet or Wickersham and Taft, a big white shoe firm in New York, where they didn't want him to represent Donald Trump, setting up his own shop with Emil Bovee to represent Donald Trump.

45:05Michael Popok:And look, let's give credit where credit is due, even if it's on the side of darkness. He did a good job for Donald Trump. You know, Donald Trump gets convicted of 34 felony counts. But, you know, really with the reelection and the sentencing, you know, other than having it permanently branded on him historically, he survived that. Other criminal prosecutions either got dismissed through Judge Cannon or got blocked by the new Department of Justice after Donald Trump won a second term. and he got him immunity being on the team that argued at the United States Supreme Court and got him a declaration by the Supreme Court that he's not an insurrectionist and that wouldn't be enough to keep him off the ballot.

45:47So by all accounts, Todd Blanche, other than not being

45:52Michael Popok:as MAGA as MAGA would like and suspicions that he's been a Democrat this whole time, as opposed to being what he calls himself a principled conservative, he's been trying out since day one even when he was interviewed i think in new york magazine or new yorker magazine about why did you join donald trump why wouldn't you you know and implicit was i want to be attorney general so he gets passed over and even even then it's not pam bondi number two it's matt gates uh we'll talk about a florida connection for donald trump and attorney generals attorneys general matt gates who had a sticky little problem of child sex trafficking allegations and had a never got through the never got to the confirmation process.

46:36Michael Popok:And then it was, again, Passover of Todd Blanche, Pam Bondi, an impeachment lawyer, an attorney general in Florida at one time, not a federal prosecutor, not a federal anything. And he needed her to at least be a good communicator. She's terrible for all the grief that Kamala Harris took unwarranted for being, you know, oh, a word salad. You never can understand anything she says. Pam Bondi's worse. Pam Bondi has been worse. And this, even though you and I said this performative act of hers that met its match in Congress, in the House, in the Senate during hearings, in which she came with her burn book.

47:16Michael Popok:And instead of answering questions, just attacking the person, asking the question, and then reeling off, and I think we'll talk about it later, reeling off, you can't even get it right, reeling off statistics about the economy instead of answering questions about the Epstein matter. all came to a head. You and I said, why is she doing that? It's not helping in the eyes of the American people or otherwise. You said, oh, she has an audience of one. It's Donald Trump. But that works the other way too. That audience of one did not think she did well in those. And I think a couple of final nails in the coffin is when she ran down to Congress two weeks ago to try to cut off at the pass, Representative Comer's, the chair of the oversight committee, subpoenaed to her about the Epstein matter and said, and this is obviously choreographed with Comer, I'll go down with Todd Blanch and I'll get in a room with the Democrats and we'll just let them ask the questions.

48:15Michael Popok:And the only question that the Democrats had led by people like Representative Summer Lee and others was, you're showing up for the 14th for your sworn in testimony, right? And she wouldn't give a straight answer. And the whole thing devolved into a screaming match with her and the Republican and the Democrats getting the better of her. Summer Lee being called the B word or the equivalent of it by Comer, the whole thing looked terrible. And that might have been one of the last straws for Pam Bondi. But if you want to go back further and go back to the Vanity Fair interview that Susie Wiles gave, the chief of staff, even though supposedly she's friends with Bondi, that was what we call damning faint praise when she said effectively, Pam Bondi did not cover herself in glory with the way she handled the Epstein files.

49:15Michael Popok:This was after Pam Bondi said, and I've got the list, the client list right here on my desk. And then six months later, she's been backtracking ever since. So when you lose Susie Wiles, which apparently she did, you lose Republicans on the Senate Judiciary Committee and the House Judiciary Committee, which she had. You lose the right-wing social media MAGA influencers like Laura Loomer, who's been calling her Pam Blondie and calling for her head since the beginning of the administration, over the Epstein file of handling or mishandling. When you lose all these groups, then who is your support group?

49:53Michael Popok:And this is a message to women who want to work for Donald Trump, future attorneys general that want to work for Donald Trump. You know, it's a short-term gig. And if you're a woman, it's even a shorter-term gig in the MAGA Trump world. So Bondi goes. The question is now, who's going to replace her as Donald Trump, and we'll talk about in the Supreme Court segment, also seems to be rocking the boat to get another pick on the United States Supreme Court. There might be some overlapping lists here. But the problem that they have is that many of the people on the short list for the attorney general, because when Donald Trump announced that Todd Blanche would be the interim attorney general.

50:37Michael Popok:He did not end the race to replace his coach by saying, and I'm nominating him to be confirmed in the Senate to have the job. And by the way, he probably would get confirmed in this particular Senate, Todd Blanch, I mean. He didn't say that. He's letting it play out for another Hunger Games race to see who's going to kiss enough butt for Donald Trump to get the job. But he's got a major Tom Tillis problem. Yes, the same Tom Tillis that has effectively been blocking his Federal Reserve chair pick, Kevin Warsh, although there's going to be in mid-April, apparently, some sort of confirmation process starting.

51:16Michael Popok:But Tom Tillis has said two things lately that matter. A Republican who doesn't care because he's not running for re-election. One, I'm not going to vote for your Fed Reserve chair pick. And that ends for Jay Powell on the 15th of May, unless you clear him and kill that criminal investigation of Jay Powell for something wrongdoing related to testimony in Congress or construction of the building for the Federal Reserve. And he just said, I'll play the clip in a second, I'm not going to vote. I'm going to, he's on the Judiciary Committee as well. I'm going to step over with the Democrats and block any attorney general candidate that's a election denier or Jad6 propagandist.

52:02Michael Popok:Let's play that clip. Two pieces. One is the investigation of Jerome Powell. There will not be another Fed chair confirmed until that's disposed of or until for the first time since the allegations were made public, they could actually prove there's even a scintilla of criminal activity. We have seven Republican members of the Banking Committee saying there wasn't. Now, separate matter, for me, the threshold for somebody following Pam Bondi ends the moment I hear they said one thing that excused the events of January the 6th. I've been very clear on that. So I hope whoever they have in mind to follow General Bondi was very clear-eyed on my position on January the 6th.

52:45Michael Popok:That's why I didn't support two other nominees who were coming

52:47Ben Meiselas:through Judiciary Committee, and I won't support any nominee who thought that any element of January 6th was excused.

52:54Michael Popok:Yeah, so when you look at that list, it shortens the list considerably. The list that seems to be accumulating, and you and I know some of these people, Harmeet Dillon, who's been trying out for Attorney General for a long, long time, full disclosure, I litigated a case with her once, a couple of cases with her, actually. She's in the Civil Rights Division, headed that division, completely destroyed what the Civil Rights Division has ever been about since its founding in the 1950s. And everybody has left streaming having worked there. But she's been angling for that job since she lost the Republican National Committee chairmanship position.

53:31Michael Popok:Lee Zeldin, talk about continuing the political hackism of the Department of Justice. Lee Zeldin, a little-known congressman from Long Island. I don't know, maybe he was in the Brothers District at one time. Now the EPA administrator who just spends his entire time getting rid of all the protections that give us clean air and clean water. He's yes, he's a lawyer, but no, he's never practiced in federal court at best. He's been a military lawyer working for the JAG Corps, but he's got the chops for being a pit bull for Donald Trump. So you got Lee Zeldin. You've got you've got that person. I don't think Aileen Cannon is going to give up her her lifetime appointment federal job for the short term gig of being an attorney general, because I think she's holding out for the Supreme Court position.

54:21Michael Popok:I don't think they take Emil Bovee back off the Third Circuit Court of Appeals because I think they're saving him for potentially being on the United States Supreme Court. Mike Lee, senator from Utah, he's not giving up his day job in the senator position to be maybe six months or a year of an attorney general, given the lifespan of Donald Trump's attorneys general. It's a thankless job, as you can see. So you've got to pick somebody who sees this as a leg up on their career. Turning to Florida for a minute, I do have a dark horse candidate in Jason Redding Quinones, who's the U.S. Attorney Southern District of Florida, who Donald Trump has been using to go after his political targets like Comey again and John Brennan again.

55:08Michael Popok:He's a former short-term Miami state judge. He was in a circuit court judge. He was in the military. I think he was in the Marines. He was in the U.S. Attorney's Office. He's relatively the right age. I could see Quinones going, I'll take it, as a stepping stone to some other things in the MAGA world. There's other people that have been considered, and Todd Blanche is still apparently in the running, although not trusted by the inner, inner circle for Donald Trump. You and I talked about, I caught a shocking podcast clip when I was doing research for another video of Peter Tickerton, the 80-something-year-old former military academy high school roommate of Donald Trump, who Trump often uses to take cases that no other self-respecting lawyer will take in the MAGA world.

56:02Michael Popok:And I was shocked to see him on, I don't know if it was on the, I won't name the podcast. It's ones that nobody watches. But he did say that Pam Bondi's not to blame for the failures of the Department of Justice. It was Todd Blanche and not going after the political enemies of Donald Trump, which is a talking point of MAGA. But more importantly, Tickerton doesn't say anything unless Donald Trump lets him say it. He obviously wanted to destabilize or at least signal to Todd Blanche that, you know, you got a lot of work to do to get back into my loyal camp before I even consider you for attorney general.

56:40Ben Meiselas:We'll continue to follow it every step of the way here on Legal AF. Comprehensive overview right there by Michael Popak. I'm going to take a quick break right now. Just remind everybody, if you or anyone you know has been involved in an auto accident, a trucking accident, if you've been injured by the negligence of somebody else or especially a company or truck or something belonging to a company injured you, reach out to the Popak firm. Call or text 877-POPAK-AF or visit thepopakfirm.com. They're available 24-7. They've got people in all 50 states who could answer your questions. The consultation is free.

57:17Ben Meiselas:and you may know somebody or family looking for a lawyer, maybe something catastrophic happened sadly and they need a lawyer, reach out to Popak's firm, 877-POPAK-AF or thepopakfirm.com. Also subscribe to Legal AF on Substack. That Substack is growing fast. And subscribe to Legal AF on YouTube as well. Also, Popak, tell everybody right now about the Webby's.

57:39Michael Popok:Yes, the Webby Awards, which is like the Oscars for podcast. podcast. Both Legal AF is up for best podcast in news and a show that I do on Midas where I kind of ride solo called The Intersection is up for best new podcast in news. It's now down to a popular vote, if you will. It's the People's Voice Award. We are currently number one with 12 days to go, but we need and would love to get that award and it gives you the ability. Early voting is open. We're always in favor of early voting here on Midas Touch Legal AF. The links are below, 12 days to go. And if we win, we go to New York and accept the award on our audience's behalf.

58:25Michael Popok:And it gives me an opportunity to reunite with the brothers.

58:28Ben Meiselas:Let's do it, everybody. You know what to do. Let's get Legal AF number one. Let's get that award. All right. Let's take our last quick break of the show. We'll be right back.

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1:02:21Ben Meiselas:Welcome back to Legal AF. Thank you to all of our sponsors for supporting the show. Let's just get right into it. Michael Popak, there was oral arguments this week. the case for the United States Supreme Court involving Donald Trump trying to overturn the 14th Amendment via an executive order. Just the fact that I even have to say that sentence, that you're trying to overrule a constitutional amendment via an executive order. So everybody knows executive orders are not laws. They're just supposed to be the interpretation of the executive branch, how existing laws should be implemented to the extent to which something is interpreted has to be within the bounds of a law.

1:03:05Ben Meiselas:So yet alone, we're talking about using an executive order to try to say the 14th Amendment doesn't say what the 14th Amendment says without even me telling you what the 14th Amendment says. The very structure of that concept that an executive order is trying to overrule an amendment is something that should tell you already that it's the height of frivolous. But let me just read for you what the 14th amendment says. Section one, all persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are citizens of the United States and of the states wherein they reside. It also goes on to say, no state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.

1:03:50Ben Meiselas:And so based on that interpretation, Donald Trump reads the words, the opposite of what it says, and says, if you're born here, that does not make you a citizen. If you were born from somebody who was a migrant who was here, was not a citizen at the time that they gave birth, then you just can see for yourself or hear for yourself what the 14th Amendment says. So all of the courts across the country, rejected Donald Trump's executive order, and they blocked it. Donald Trump appealed, filed what's called a petition for certiorari all the way to the Supreme Court. Some people were surprised that the Supreme Court even took oral argument on it because it's so frivolous.

1:04:33Ben Meiselas:Although I think given perhaps the, I guess, the cloud hanging over so many people's head, the ramifications of such a horrific interpretation. The Supreme Court thought that they should hear it. So they heard oral arguments this week. Donald Trump said he was going to attend it. So Donald Trump showed up there trying to act all tough and strong. He was there while his Solicitor General, which is like one of the top positions at the Department of Justice, they're responsible for doing oral arguments and arguing and briefing before the Supreme Court. It's called the solicitor general. That's the position.

1:05:09Ben Meiselas:The guy who is in that position right now is somebody by the name of John Sauer. So Donald Trump listened to John Sauer's oral argument and the Supreme Court was not having any of it and basically said, yeah, but that's not what the constitution says. And the Supreme Court would ask him questions too. Like, so is your view that like native Americans and indigenous people here are not actually citizens? And Donald Trump's solicitor general was like, huh, I never thought about it that way. So maybe they're not, I don't know. There were just some ridiculous moments. Everyone knew. I don't know if it's going to be a nine to zero ruling or a seven to two ruling or eight to one ruling.

1:05:50Ben Meiselas:I'll get your take on it, Popak, but Trump's going to lose this one and lose it big. And this was one of like, we talked about like his ballroom. That's like the main thing he loves and he loves harassing people who are here who look different than him. And so this is also like one of the things he wanted to do is terrorize and torture people who are citizens here and remove birthright citizenship as a avenue for citizenship. I'll just show you two portions that I found notable before throwing it to you, Popak, from this oral argument that happened this week. And then as Donald Trump heard where this is going, he threw a tantrum and then just walked out in the middle of the argument before the ACLU lawyer made her argument.

1:06:32Ben Meiselas:And it's like, dude, you showed up in the Supreme, like it's such loser behavior going back to the beginning. It's like, you don't need to show up, number one. But if you're going to show up, just be a decent human being. You know, it's not like these oral arguments last hours. I mean, at most they go 90 minutes, oftentimes shorter. Your lawyer argued, you sit there, be respectful, let the other lawyer make the argument, you know, And then you leave when it's done, but he's stormed out in the middle of it through a tantrum. It's just, again, the behavior is objectively just the way loser human beings behave.

1:07:06Ben Meiselas:And he's a loser. He's been a lifelong loser. He's just a lifelong, terrible, vile piece of trash his entire life who defrauded people, bankrupted things, screwed people over, lied about everything. He's doing it again. Let me go to those two notable points right here. This is when Justice Roberts was asking John Sauer, well, what about the fact that the Constitution says nothing that you are claiming it says? How about the Constitution as a document? Here, let's play this clip.

1:07:36Michael Popok:500 birth tourism companies in the People's Republic of China whose business is to bring people here to give birth and return to that nation.

1:07:45Ben Meiselas:Having said all that, you do agree that that has no impact on the legal analysis before us? I think it's, I quote what Justice Scalia said in his Hamdan dissent, where they have, where like their interpretation has these implications that could not possibly have

1:08:01Michael Popok:been approved by the 19th century framers of this amendment. I think that shows that they've made a mess, their interpretation has made a mess of the provision.

1:08:10Ben Meiselas:Well, it certainly wasn't a problem in the 19th century. No, but of course, we're in a new world now, as Justice Alito pointed out to, where 8 billion people are one plane ride away from having a child who's a U.S. citizen. Well, it's a new world. It's the same Constitution. It is. And then I'll show you another clip right here as well. Let's take a look at where one of the justices asked him about. So what's your view about Justice Gorsuch? Do you think Native American, a justice who Donald Trump appointed, do you think Native Americans are birthright citizens under your test? You're playing this play.

1:08:49Michael Popok:Do you think Native Americans today are birthright citizens under your test and under your friend's test? I think so.

1:08:57Ben Meiselas:I mean, obviously, they've been granted citizenship by statute. Put aside the statute. Do you think they're birthright citizens? No, I think the clear understanding that everybody agrees in the congressional debates is that the children of tribal Indians are not birthright citizens. I understand that's what they said, but your test is the domicile of the parents, and that would be the test you'd have us apply today, right?

1:09:18Michael Popok:Yes, yes. So if a tribal Indian, for example, gives up allegiance to... Born today, birthright citizens. I think so, on our test. They're lawfully domiciled here. I have to think that through, but that's my reaction. I'll take the yes, that's all right.

1:09:36Ben Meiselas:Michael Popak, I'll have to think it through.

1:09:38Michael Popok:No, you're supposed to think it through before you file your papers and as you're standing in oral argument. Even John Sauer, the Solicitor General, who will say anything, even if it means undermining his credibility and refusing to acknowledge illogic in his own argument, wasn't prepared for this oral purpose because there's no argument. You played where I said from John Roberts, the moment it happened early on, and it was right around that time that Donald Trump stood up and walked out, setting history twice. First sitting president to ever attend an oral argument and first sitting president to ever walk out as his handpicked Supreme Court justices rebuked him to his face while he was there.

1:10:30Michael Popok:And then fired Pam Bondi on the way in. It was a very momentous day that day. But I pointed to that same clip when John Sauer said, and I think I'll go down in history as the loser argument that it is. Well, there's eight billion people that are only one plane ride away from US citizenship, and it's a whole new world order, but it's the same old constitution. For me, that was the weekend at Bernie's moment. John Roberts was dead at that. I mean, John Sauer was dead at that moment in response to John Roberts. You know, you could, I joke that it reminded me of the phrase that Senator Kennedy used against Kristi Noem when she testified about no competitive bidding or competitive bidding for her ad campaign that got her fired from the Homeland Security, that she's as dead as fried chicken.

1:11:21Michael Popok:He was as dead as fried chicken at that moment, but it got worse, everybody. And the book ends for me, and I'll just summarize it without playing it, is when the inevitably, when the Wong Kim Ark case came up, see, as complicated as Supreme Court cases can be in oral arguments, this one wasn't. There were four big pieces of paper. I joked in one of my hot takes. It's not like one of these 2 ,000 piece jigsaw puzzles of put the Statue of Liberty together. There's like four big issues here. That's how simple the puzzle was. It was the 14th Amendment in the language that you read. It was a statute where Congress codified who is a citizen, cribbing exactly, copying and pasting the exact language of the 14th Amendment in 1940, and then recodifying it in 1952, which completely undermines the argument that Donald Trump has made and Sauer tried to make, which is this constitutional provision is for slave babies.

1:12:27Michael Popok:That's Trump's words, not mine. Babies of slaves. Look at the date, Donald Trump said in a social media posting. This has to do with descendants of slaves, not anyone else. Well, the problem with that is it says a person, which is when a drafter or framer of the Constitution or amendment uses the term a person. It is the broadest definition and meaning. It means everybody that's in the United States, regardless of their immigration status or whether their parents are U.S., it's the person in the United States. And so you may want to, you could say maybe in 1868, when the Reconstruction Amendments came out, of which the 14th Amendment is one, all right, on the minds of the legislators, the amendment drafters was the newly freed, now black Americans.

1:13:17Michael Popok:and a famous decision, infamous decision from the United States Supreme Court at the time called Dred Scott, which even to this day, you know, when they teach it in law school, you hear gasps in the room that that was the Supreme Court's position, that human beings in America who happened to be black and slaves, having been brought into involuntary servitude by Americans would now be considered not to be American citizens, or human beings at all. So, yes, that's where that amendment came from. But then how do you describe a 1940s Congress during the height of World War II? They weren't worried about the descendants of slaves or black or slave babies.

1:13:58Michael Popok:How about 1952 during the Korean War? They weren't thinking about that either. So those are three big pieces of paper. And the last one is the case from 1898, which is the Wong Kim Ark case. And in Wong Kim Ark, a baby born in San Francisco to Chinese parents when he was in his 20s, left the country to go to China to visit family and come back. When he came back, he said, you're not an American citizen. He said, I was born in San Francisco. They said, yeah, but your parents are Chinese. We're not letting you be an American citizen. Because there was a lot of, as there is today, a lot of anti-Chinese sentiment then.

1:14:35Michael Popok:Chinese had, much like the black, what became black Americans, were put into involuntary servitude, many of them, to build the railroads in America. and they were not well-liked, to say the least, in America. And so that went up to the Supreme Court and Justice Gray famously wrote with an analysis that's right on point that Wong Kim Ark is an American citizen with birthright citizenship. That's the case. Now, what you and I had hoped is that why are they even taking this case? Just say the 1898 precedent stands or the federal law that in the executive order violates both of those and be done with it and don't take the case.

1:15:18Michael Popok:But no, because the Trump administration was pushing, this is the bulwark of our immigration policy. You must take this case. They took the effing case. We were a little worried. It was a little white knuckle moment. What are they going to do? I could watch Roberts, watch Amy Coney Barrett. What I didn't know is how quickly Gorsuch and Kavanaugh would come to the rescue of the Constitution. And so there was this moment about this Wong Kim Hark case where, and I interviewed the American Civil Liberties Union Deputy Director of Immigration Rights Project a day before the oral argument about Cecilia Wong.

1:15:51Michael Popok:No, I don't think a relation, because I think she spells it W-A-N-G. Cecilia Wong was the advocate for the American Civil Liberties Union against John Sauer. And there's this amazing moment where there's actually laughter. You know, John Sauer's position effectively got people laughed at it. When Kavanaugh, of all people, said to Cecilia, let me ask you a question. If we were to find that the Wong Kim Ark case from 1898 is dispositive and the precedent here, it'd be a pretty short ruling. It'd be a pretty short ruling, right? That would be the easy way to handle this case, right? And she waited like a beat, like a comedic beat.

1:16:36Michael Popok:And she said, yes. And the entire, I don't know if that's the moment Trump walked out, everybody laughed because of the, you know, brevity is the soul of wit. You know, she just came, you know, that was like a, that was an answer 30 years in the making with her law career, but that was the right answer. And then just moments later, as a bookend, Gorsuch is going back and forth as you played one clip with John Sauer and John Sauer, knowing that he got hurt, And you and I have been advocates before appellate courts. And you know when you get hurt. And you know what you got to deal with the next time you get up.

1:17:12Michael Popok:And knowing that he got hurt on the Wong Kim Ark precedent, decided to try to use it to his advantage. And he got one second into that. He said, well, in the Wong Kim Ark case, and Gorsuch stopped him and said, I don't think you should be using the Wong Kim Ark case to support your position. So I'm like, okay. So let's just do the math. Donald Trump has to get to five, he has to count to five. I'm not even sure how he counts to three. We got Sotomayor, Ketanji Brown Jackson, who had a great line in there, and talk about an Orwellian vision. She said, I'm confused. Are we supposed to have pregnant women come in for depositions to talk about their allegiance or that they're going to be subject to the law?

1:18:01Michael Popok:I started to picture a maternity ward attached to a conference center where you whisk these women in to have depositions under oath. And of course, John Sauer had no good answer for it, for this thing that was pointed out by Ketanji Brown-Jackson. So Sotomayor, Ketanji Brown-Jackson, and Kagan, three votes against ripping out the 14th Amendment out of the Constitution by executive order. And then you've got wherever Alito and Thomas are. Interestingly enough, besides Donald Trump arriving at this, he threatened to go to the tariffs oral argument. He went to this one. The first question out of the box was by Thomas, Clarence Thomas, African-American, who asked the question about Dred Scott, that case I told you about earlier, to kick things off.

1:18:56Michael Popok:Didn't really go anywhere because there's not much to go with that based on, you know, to try to give a historical reference to this. So let's put Thomas out there. Maybe even Alito, and we'll talk about him in a minute too, out there. Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, Amy Coney Barrett, Roberts. I think slide over. Maybe we lose one. I doubt it. I think it's eight to one, seven to two. And yes, we should. And I want people who are in favor of the democracy, the way we understand it, to be encouraged when we talk about things like this, But keep it in perspective.

1:20:04Michael Popok:let him fire everybody in the executive branch, and of course, give him immunity and let him run into action, probably side against on voting, mail-in ballots having a grace period by which they can still be counted after arrival if they've been voted on in time, and probably destroy the last semblance of Voting Rights Act. So we're still waiting on some rulings. Sure, we'll probably get a ruling that Donald Trump can't fire Lisa Cook on the Federal Reserve the way he did it. And we'll get this ruling. And we got the tariff ruling and a couple of other things. But by and large, not a great term for the democracy, the way we talk about it.

1:20:49Michael Popok:And something I'll just touch on, you know, we had the Salazar case that came out two days earlier. That was actually eight to one, But with everybody in the eight, except for Kataji Brown Jackson, to find that a state medical body that regulates like psychotherapy and psychiatrists can't prevent conversion therapy. That's where a therapist tells somebody that it's bad to be gay or transgender and let me tell you why and try to convert them. And that led to a Syrian, Gorsuch wrote the decision on that. And that became a whole First Amendment speech thing, which I don't even think is appropriate.

1:21:29Michael Popok:I sided with Ketanji Brown Jackson. It would be like, my speech is regulated. I'm a lawyer. You're a lawyer. You don't get to tell people how to commit a crime. You don't get, you know, my speech gets regulated all the time. A pilot in an airplane, you know, doesn't get to say, hey, I'm going to F with the passengers now. Hey, let's take a vote. Aisle seats first. Who wants me to slam into this mountain? Yeah, that, you know, First Amendment. No, no, no. There's just certain things that get to be regulated. And so we've had some bad things. So when we want to put things in perspective, we don't want to hand ring all the time and be the angel of death all the time.

1:22:05Michael Popok:And when things go in our favor, we want to talk about it and maybe even celebrate it and talk about the ramifications of it. But we also have to put it into the context that you and I do hourly, daily podcast here on Legal AF.

1:22:18Ben Meiselas:There you have it. theme of the episode, Trump losing his AG, Trump losing his ballroom, Trump losing oral arguments. You know, look, the Supreme Court, though, has given him way too much. And so, you know, the fight continues. That's why you got to keep on fighting and not lose hope, you know, and just got to keep your integrity. Don't bend to fascism. Keep on fighting. I know it's been tough, but But, you know, the fight that you've been in is actually showing results. And there's going to be, sadly, a lot more bad rulings along the way. There's going to be some good rulings along the way. But you keep applying the pressure, right?

1:23:04Ben Meiselas:Pam Bondi fired. Kristi Noem fired. Who's going to be fired next? Is it going to be Lori Chavez-Dareem? Or is it going to be Howard Lutnick? Who else from the Epstein class goes next? Your pressure is working, right? And part of applying the right type of pressure, though, is also understanding the legal frameworks, the legal structure, what's going on behind the scenes so we could all be very informed citizens. And that's what we do here on Legal AF every single weekend. And, of course, on the Legal AF YouTube channel every single day. Popak, if people want to vote for that Legal AF Webby Award, what do they do?

1:23:45Michael Popok:Yeah, thanks, Ben. And they go, we have 12 more days left until voting ends. This is for the People's Voice Award, which is you deciding who's going to be the top podcast in America for the Webby Awards. Intersection is up for Best New Podcast for News, and Legal AF is up for Best Podcast for News. We're currently in the lead among the five final finalists, but it's all by popular vote. It's all by the vote of our audience. Here's an opportunity for you to actually, you know, you like our podcast, you like to keep them on the air. Here's a way to contribute. When we hopefully announce that we won the Webby Award, we'll accept it on your behalf.

1:24:24Michael Popok:We always do all of that. There's a committee that's also going to award some awards as well. But to be frank, I'd like to win the People's Voice Award because it's really a reflection of our audience, the fellowship, and the community that we've built here. And links are below to do the voting 12 more days.

1:24:39Ben Meiselas:everybody make sure you subscribe to the legal af youtube channel and the legal af sub stack let's get those channels to remain at number one and let's get those channels continuing to grow and then also if you or someone you know have been injured in a car accident auto accident or injured by the negligence of a company or the negligence caused by some other entity or somebody else. Call 877-POPOC-AF or text 877-POPOC-AF or visit thepopocfirm.com. Go to thepopocfirm.com. They've got people taking phone calls in all states. Consultation is free. You may know someone who are family or is going through something really tragic and catastrophic.

1:25:22Ben Meiselas:They're looking for a lawyer. Tell them to reach out to Michael Popoc. Michael's representing a lot of people who listen and watch Legal AF, 877-POPOC-AF, or go to thepopocfirm.com. Thanks everybody so much for watching this episode of Legal AF. Stay in the fight. We're in this together. We'll see you next time on Legal AF.

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