Legal AF - 6/24/2026

27:55Ben Meiselas:But this is Trump's behavior his whole life. And so let's talk about what the judge ruled. Here's the order from earlier. The parties are ordered to file a joint status report within seven days of the mid-July Kennedy Center Board of Trustees meeting alluded to in the report or by July 31st, whichever is earlier. The joint status report shall apprise the court of any pertinent factual development as to plans for future construction and operations at the kennedy center the report shall also indicate the purpose for and the status of the tarp and scaffolding that defendants have erected on the front portico of the center to the extent they remain at that time so ordered judge christopher cooper let me get your take on this karen i mean to me this also it shows how petty donald trump is but it also just brings more attention to it if you just took the name off maybe it would be a one-day story there be people applauding now every day as the trump regime engages in all of these cover-ups you have a literal cover-up a tarp that is a literal symbols and we'll talk a little bit about the rot in the reflective pool but you have a cover-up and you have rot physically manifested in dc karen yeah i mean what you see here is a judge that is basically calling them out and saying i think i'm being lied to.

29:13He didn't say that, but that's the sort of read between the lines. Because this tarp that they put up, they claim that it was done because there's necessary repairs that have to be done to the facade, to the soffits. And what this lawsuit essentially brought to the attention of the court is, look, the soffits, first of all, there's been no indication that there's any repairs that need to be done to the facade, number one. Number two, these soffits that you talk about are like 20 feet above where the tarp is. Number three, this tarp was put up in what looks like a permanent, it's more of a permanent or semi-permanent structure.

29:53It's not like, oh, you know, we're going to take the Donald Trump initial or the lettering that was put above where it says the John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts. It said, you know, the Donald Trump and John F. Kennedy, and of course he puts his name on top. You know, you can imagine a scenario where they would put a temporary tarp up while workers take down the lettering for safety of the public reasons so things don't fall off and hit the public, etc. This does not look like one of those temporary tarps that you would put up that, frankly, it shouldn't take more than a day or two to take this lettering down.

30:31It's about what it took to put it up, right? These are just letters that are affixed onto a facade. Take them off. That's all that we're ordered to do in addition to restore the programming and not close down if you're going to go bankrupt and lose money. And what they put up instead was something that looks like more of a semi-permanent structure. It has doorways that you can walk through. There's no indication that this is anything that's going to be coming down any time in the near future. and the judge sees right through it. And the judge is basically, you know, because we can't see behind it if they've taken the lettering down or not.

31:13So frankly, we have no idea what they have going on. They're just putting it up there so that they don't have to take the lettering down. And the judge is like, no, no, no. My order wasn't to cover up the name. My order was to take it off and to do certain things. I want to know what the plan is. I want to have a joint status report for what's going on, both with programming and the TARP. And frankly, this judge is clearly suspicious of what's going on, number one. And number two, building a record, building a really important record, which is important to do if he later is going to take action, if he was lied to, if people are in violation of his order.

31:52So he's taking his time to build the record he needs to build because he knows that you can't, basically they're not trustworthy. And judges have taken note, right, that this administration and when they come to court, that they're no longer afforded what's called the presumption of regularity, meaning you can trust what they have to say. And so judges, I think, are behaving in ways that we've never seen before toward the United States government because of this administration. And that's what's happening at the Kennedy Center. Did you see also, by the way, did you see that somebody put up the video of the Jeffrey Epstein documentary onto the tarp?

32:32Right.

32:32Ben Meiselas:And talk about Epstein and a moment too, because it gets to this point of compliance. And as you talk about building a record, you have to build. That takes time. Fascism and noncompliance happens fast. So a broader question that I have, Karen, is how does our legal system that is rooted in implied covenants of good faith and fair dealing, that a law or a contract can't do everything. You can't spell out every word and order the language that sometimes it would take to capture every possible variable doesn't always exist. And so our system and why people used to, I think, admire our country versus lots of other places, and not to suggest there are other places that don't have good systems and democracies that function.

33:28Ben Meiselas:I don't want to seem so myopic in my viewpoint about just America. But what I think was an admirable proposition is people would look at our constitution and say, whoa, whoa, that's not that extensive. I'm in a document. How do you all just kind of follow it? And you go, well, you know, there's a take care clause. Congress is Article I. Judges are Article III. The president takes care that the laws are faithfully executed, checked by Congress, checked by the courts if they don't do that. But there's a general view of compliance and fulfilling obligations with good faith. Same thing, you know, our laws don't spell out when Congress passes a piece of legislation, it doesn't spell out always every specific thing.

34:15Ben Meiselas:It's why we had agencies and regulations and things that would, and then executive orders that could effectuate laws, not counteract and destroy the law. And then you have judge orders where a judge order of, hey, you need to remove your name and you need to allow it to function. I don't think the judge would ever say, man, I got to do an anti-TARP provision in my order. I mean, no one would even think that that was a thing. Yet Donald Trump shows you, you know, you do have to guard against this, this, this, You know, and that it also Karen dovetails with our conversation during the first segment, though, about you have an MOU that has 14 points and he'll go outside of that.

34:58Ben Meiselas:And that's why he never wanted anything in writing. And even when it's in writing, there's super secret side deals. You don't know. They're going to buy our corn. Where does it say that? Oh, you know, they're going to actually agree to IAE inspectors. Where does it say that? And so that behavior has got us involved in catastrophic wars and may be this perpetual 60-day cycle with Iran. And Karen, that's brought us here right now, enabled by the Supreme Court's absolute immunity ruling. Your practice of law, my practice, is always rooted in good faith concepts of how you deal with people. That's been shattered.

35:35Ben Meiselas:So how do you as a how do even you Karen see this as someone who relies upon that in courtrooms when you're dealing with prosecutors or other litigants? Look, the sad thing is nobody believes what he has to say. And the American people don't believe it. And even a lot of Republicans and his own supporters don't believe half of what he has to say. But they all think he's this great deal maker and that he'll get the job done because he tries to use brute force. That sometimes works. And to answer your question is how does that work for people like me and you? Sometimes it has an effect in the moment, but long term it's not effective.

36:21You know, he's really engaging in coercive, threatening behavior on an international scale. And he is, that's only going to go so far, especially with a country like Iran. and he is not careful, he's imprecise, and he is not truthful. And that is coming back to bite him in so many areas, whether it's in courts in this country, whether it's on the national stage, and frankly, at the midterm elections. I think it's really going to come back to bite him, hopefully, because everyone sees through it at this point. Everyone.

37:05Ben Meiselas:You know, that's where do we need as a country, you know, and it's obviously not something you and I can necessarily answer in the next several minutes on this segment, though, do we need to rethink the Constitution? And do we really need to rethink the system? Because it has exposed that the gaps that exist, which used to be filled by the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing, the take care clause doesn't exist anymore. And in other systems, there appear to be more checks and balances in other countries, even that are based on systems where they still have monarchs, but where the, I'm not suggesting we should go in that.

37:50Ben Meiselas:I'm just suggesting when I look at, you know, a system of Australian Commonwealth countries that have governor generals and things like that where the commander in chief has to show up and debate the other side in parliament and that you have to climb up the ranks and be proven in parliament before you get the role that you can play nice in the playground with other people. You know, I used to think naively that we had the great system, but increasingly, you know, as as I, you know, as I lived through more of this, I think to myself, I shouldn't be saying the founders were brilliant. They were brilliant at a time, but they weren't able to anticipate what's happened right now.

38:40Ben Meiselas:And maybe we need to rethink all of this, honestly, you know, to truly more perfect democracy, because this has created a situation where, you know, where where our democracy really isn't, we're not a democracy right now. I mean, we are an authoritarian Putin-like country, Karen. Yeah, you bring up an excellent point, Ben. You know, what this is showing is where the stress points are in our great democracy. And look, I think the founders did an incredible job and set us up for great success and a great country in the American dream 250 years ago, but just like laws change over time as times change.

39:22And all laws in our system go through evolutions and get reauthorized and changed and updated and modernized over the years. And some things are abandoned, some things are improved upon, some things are added, just depending on the change of times. And whether it's giving women the right to vote, whether giving black people the right to vote. You know, it's good to change, right? Change is good. And this, you might be right that it's time now to, I wouldn't throw out our constitution, but certainly look for areas where we can improve now that we've seen kind of where the vulnerabilities are and the weaknesses are and how our democracy, because, you know, this is, we're in an existential moment.

40:12That's not hyperbole. and we have to decide as a country, what do we want? And do we believe in democracy still? And do we believe in giving people a voice and a choice and freedom and freedom to love who you want and to be who you are and to worship whatever God you want and all the other freedoms that we thought we all had and that we have coveted so dearly. And to protect those, do we need to modernize our constitution, I think is an excellent question that is certainly worth asking and certainly worth looking at because we are seeing in living color just the vulnerabilities of this current 250-year-old system.

41:04Ben Meiselas:Right, Karen, when you have a trial and, you know, for everybody knows this about you, but Karen's like the top trial lawyer that exists right now in our country. So you're hearing from someone firsthand who, and she's humble about it, but let me just sing your praises. I'm part of a lot of really good teams. Of course.

41:28Ben Meiselas:Sometimes I'm sure you would say, you know what, let's just go. Like, let's just do the trial. Like, let's just go pick a jury and let's go. But there's a process. Processes are messy. They're slow. You know, you have a hearing. You wait for an order. You have a hearing. You wait for an order. You know, you have preliminary hearings. You know, there's there's a lot in there. You know, you you test the evidence. Is it admissible? Is it not admissible? You challenge the way evidence is gathered to ensure that it's handled with the requisite requirements that a jury is getting accurate, reliable, non-prejudicial evidence.

42:07Ben Meiselas:And that's our system. And there are systems out there that aren't like that, where the oligarch or the stooge or the kangaroo court leader says, I don't like you, guilty, or I like you, innocent. Other countries have systems like that. And similarly, there are other countries that don't have to have a bicameral legislature. Got to go to this chamber, got to go to this chamber. That's our system that exists. You can and that's worked and it's been slow and frustrating. But what it seems is that because it operates messy, there have been a lot of people who could take advantage of this system. sucks.

42:53Ben Meiselas:Here's what we want. But what we're seeing now, Karen, I think is the consequence of that, though, where you're not careful, where you don't have checks and balances, where you don't allow the proper safeguards. Boom, you're in this territory. Yeah. My most fun job, Ben, because I wear several hats in life, is I'm the legal advisor to the great show Law and Order. And And it's a great show, but it definitely does not reflect what you just described, which is how things are slow, methodical, take time. And you really do have to put in the work to hammer things out in a way that's intelligent and makes sense.

43:45Ben Meiselas:Well, you know, and I'll tell you, so you have a show like Law and Order, but then you then you have reality shows that we know are not actually reality and often reflect the kind of, you know, scripted carnival, you know, degradation. And, you know, when you think about the indoctrination of reality show culture over a period of time that spans a lot of the generation of voters, and you think about the way United States is being run, sometimes I feel are not run, like we're dystopian, like we are non-consensual extras in this dystopian nightmare reality show that's existing here in the United States and the rest of the world at a leadership level are either looking at us and horrified or laughing or both and saying, what the hell are they doing?

44:37Ben Meiselas:Like, what the hell is going on? But there are real world consequences here and abroad. I want to come back and talk about, you know, will there be these contempt proceedings taking place? What are these 101 retired federal judges doing? We'll talk a little bit about the reflecting pool litigation and what's going on there. I never thought I'd talk about reflecting pool litigation, but here we are. Anyway, a quick reminder, make sure you all subscribe to the Legal AF YouTube channel. Keep that Legal AF YouTube channel growing as well. And then subscribe to the Legal AF sub stack and subscribe to all the Legal AF stuff.

45:10Ben Meiselas:All right, let's take our last quick break of the show. We'll be right back. Summer is here. And one of the best upgrades I've made at home recently is installing a Tushy bidet. It took about 10 minutes to set up, attaches right to your existing toilet, and honestly, just makes you feel cleaner and more comfortable than using toilet paper alone. I also like that it modernizes the bathroom a bit, warm water, adjustable settings, and way less wasted toilet paper. It's one of those products that feels luxurious, but is actually practical too. Stop guessing you're clean, start feeling it. For a limited time, our listeners get 10 % off their first bidet order.

45:51Ben Meiselas:When you use code LEGALAF at checkout, that's 10 % off your first bidet order at hellotushy.com with promo code LEGALAF. One more time, our listeners get 10 % off their first bidet order. When you use code LEGALAF at checkout, That's 10 % off your first bidet order at, wait for it, hellotushy.com with promo code LEGALAF. We have an important message to share from our friends at Americans United for Separation of Church and State. The Trump administration's excessive Christian nationalist rhetoric is only building as we move toward the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. AU is highlighting a case involving federal workers caught in the crossfire.

46:36Ben Meiselas:A multi-faith group of federal employees filed a new lawsuit against the U.S. Department of Agriculture for violating the separation of church and state and the religious freedom promised in our Constitution. Americans United received emails from multiple USDA employees saying the proselytizing Easter email sent by Secretary of Agriculture Brooke Rollins to more than 100 ,000 USDA employees is an abuse of power that violates the separation of church and state promised in the First Amendment. They are absolutely right. Government employees signed up to work for the USDA, not attend Brooke Rollins' Sunday service.

47:17Ben Meiselas:The Constitution draws a bright line between personal faith and government power, and this lawsuit says she trampled right over it. Well, the hits keep on coming from this administration, and Americans United is doing their best to keep up the fight against Christian nationalism. If you want to help, head to au.org slash legal AF to learn more about their work and how you can get involved. Americans united, supporting everyone's right to live as they choose, so long as they don't harm others. That's au.org slash Legal AF. Welcome back to Legal AF. Great to be here with the great Karen Friedman Agnifolo.

47:58Ben Meiselas:Of course, we miss Popak. Karen, let's just get into it. Judge Boesberg issued his criminal contempt order now 433, 434, a long time ago. So here we are, kind of like what I talked about in the last segment, you know, building records up, down, up, down. You know, meanwhile, the impact on human beings moves quickly. You hurt someone, you throw them in a terrorist detention center where they don't belong. You terrorize people, you kill them, you torture them. That's instant. The process is slow, and here we are. So what's the latest, Karen, that's going on with these contempt proceedings? What does unbunk mean for our viewers versus what happened before?

48:43Ben Meiselas:Where are we? So this all stems from a, if you recall, an airplane filled with, I think, 100 plus men who were taken on over a weekend to El Salvador. These were Venezuelan men who were taken to El Salvador to Sukkot, this prison that when you look at pictures and you see what the conditions are like, it looks more like a concentration camp. It's really, these are among the worst human rights violations and one of the worst places in the world that you can be incarcerated.

49:23And they were being just taken without being afforded the opportunity to say and have their hearing in court about why they should deserve asylum here in the United States. And Judge Boesberg was in court with the Department of Justice, who was basically, he ordered them not to remove these individuals. And there was a lot of back and forth about whether the order was clear and because PS, they violated his order and they took them and incarcerated them. And there has been a lot of back and forth, including with a whistleblower, this former DOJ employee, Erez Riveni, who came forward and said that Emile Beauvais, who was, I think the number two or the number three at the Department of Justice at the time, but is now currently a circuit court judge.

50:28He was appointed by Trump. He was also Trump's personal attorney in the Manhattan DA prosecution. He and Todd Blanche were Trump's personal attorneys, his personal defense attorneys. And Erez Riveni basically said that Beauvais, who was his boss at the time, told them essentially, don't comply with any judge's orders and tell them to F off. And so Judge Boesberg was in the process of having a hearing, and essentially he wanted to find out. He said there was probable cause to believe that the Department of Justice was in contempt, criminal contempt, of his order not to remove these individuals.

51:14and he was going to hold a hearing, right, to find out whether he should hold the Department of Justice and the individuals, in particular, Kristi Noem and others in contempt, in criminal contempt. And there was litigation surrounding whether or not the judge was able to do that. And that went up and down several times. and it ultimately went before the DC Circuit, which is the appellate level court above Judge Boesburg. And he got three judges at random, two Trump appointees, Judge Katzis and Rao, and then Judge Childs, who's not a Trump appointee. And they basically said, they basically stopped the contempt proceeding and said, Judge Boesburg, you can't do that.

52:06And you are meddling in areas you are not allowed to meddle in. This is a national security issue. You're not even able to ask these questions or look at the motivations or why people are doing what they're doing and what the Department of Justice is doing because this is national security because these individuals were part of Trend de Aragua, which he was trying to invoke the Alien Enemies Act, which has only been invoked three times in the history of this country, the War of 1812, World War I and World War II, and this is not, you know, this is, he tried to say, no, we're going to, we're now, he did an exec, Trump did an executive order saying, no, Trende Aragua is, I'm invoking the Alien Enemies Act, that these are individuals who are, who are enemies of the state, essentially, and therefore suspend their due process rights.

52:59it's national security, I can do whatever I want. And so this is a whole big fight about whether or not the judge is able to even look beneath the hood and to say, did you violate my order? And what's interesting and what happened today is that when you have a three judge panel in the circuit, you can ask, you can apply to say, to ask the full panel and there's 11 judges on the panel. You can ask them to all hear the case and they vote on whether or not they're willing to do that and whether they think there's enough votes to essentially say that the three judges got it wrong. And so the fact that an 11-judge panel agreed to take up this issue in a full en banc panel, whether Bozberg was right and whether he was able to investigate this contempt is significant.

53:55And what's also significant is the ACLU, who represented these 130 plus men who were taken to C-Cot, Judge Ludig, who has been on Legal AF many times and has been, he's a retired federal judge. I think at one point he was even being considered for the United States Supreme Court or certainly was on the short list. He has compiled a list of over 100 other former federal and state judges to support this filing and talk about the rights of judges and their ability to do these types of investigations. Because otherwise, if a judge can't investigate whether his own order was violated, You know, it's really infringing on an essential basic function of the court.

54:51So what they didn't do, though, is they didn't lift the stay. They kept the stay order in place that the three-judge panel issued against Judge Boesberg while this is litigated. But they did agree to hear it and to take it up by the full court. And so I found that interesting and the story continues.

55:15Ben Meiselas:There you have that. I want to also chat about your view on these 100 and or, yeah, what is it? 101 former judges. You know, pretty extraordinary step to have from all different political backgrounds, state, federal, you know, reaching out to a bar association to send a letter like this. I mean, it's truly an unprecedented, truly an unprecedented thing. What do you make of it? Because these are not, when you retire as a federal judge, maybe you act as a mediator or you kind of sail into the sunset, but you don't step into an arena like this. And we see these lists growing and growing and growing.

56:01Ben Meiselas:And it's not, oh, these are Democrat judges. These are from all over the political spectrum. I remember when Trump was elected the second time, and there were a lot of issues that people, various groups, whether it was ACLU or Democracy Defenders or other groups that that are fighting to uphold the rule of law, we're looking for judges to come forward and do things like file these amicus briefs, friends of the court briefs, because judges have a unique perspective, right? They're not adversaries. They're the ones who sit above the adversarial system and are supposed to apply the law to the facts.

56:43And they're supposed to be objective and neutral and do their best to apply the law and the United States Constitution to whatever's happening. And as we've seen, judges have become more and more politicized, and you've got nowhere is this more on display than the United States Supreme Court, where things largely, not always, but largely fall on partisan, along partisan lines and ideology. And in the beginning, it was noticeable that whenever you did see a judge or judges sign on to these things or speak out, it was often Judge Ludig was one of the first. You know, he was a former Republican, by the way.

57:30And there were a few others, but not many, because this is a role that judges aren't used to. They're used to remaining neutral and not taking any sides and certainly not putting themselves out there. But this growing list of judges who are willing to come together and stand up for the rule of law is notable for two reasons. Number one, it's just not normally done. But more significantly, when you look at the things that they support and come out and write about and talk about, it's all about upholding the rule of law because they see this as an existential threat to our democracy. They see this as an existential threat to the rule of law.

58:12And the way our democracy is supposed to work is win or lose, you're all supposed to follow the rules. Sometimes you win, sometimes your side wins, sometimes your side loses. But we live in a democracy and we accept the fact that, okay, I lost this time. I have to do a better job at convincing the hearts and, you know, of winning over the hearts and minds and convincing people that my way is the right way. But I'm not allowed to go out and do things that I don't like this law that you passed, Congress. It doesn't benefit me. So I'm just going to ignore it. And I'm just going to go out and do what I want.

58:48And that's not what it means to live in our democracy. And it's not what it means to live in a free society. And that's what Trump and his administration are doing. And largely the United States Supreme Court with Trump versus United States greenlit his ability to do this because he is untouchable. He's untouchable. He cannot be prosecuted. I mean, he can be impeached. And I'm sure that's what he's worried about, which is why he's so terrified of the midterms, because he knows that if he loses the House and the Senate, he could be impeached potentially. And, uh, but that's really the only recourse that and an election against him.

59:26And so he has just, the difference between the first Trump regime and the second one is night and day because he knows he has a get out of jail free card. In fact, even his slush fund, uh, he's that, that his 1776, what he calls the anti weaponization fund. He's even, you know, it's not enough that, that, um, it's not enough that he can't be prosecuted for anything. He wants to put in there that he can never even be investigated by the IRS, not him or his family for anything. This guy just wants to do whatever he wants and whatever benefits him and his family. And unfortunately, that is what we see is happening here.

1:00:06Ben Meiselas:Yeah, I think about that Supreme Court oral argument over absolute immunity, where the right-wing Supreme Court justices said, you know what we're really worried about? we're worried if we don't give absolute immunity, we're going to chill or stall the president's ability to take care that the laws be faithfully executed because they're always going to be scared of doing things because they may get arrested. To which the liberal justices said, no one's ever been scared about that as presidents before in our country's founding because they're not violating the law. What are you talking about? What we should be afraid about is what happens if you give somebody with authoritarian ambitions absolute immunity because they'll start behaving like an authoritarian to which justice roberts and the right wing just you don't have to worry about that what are you talking about that was the debate that happened on the supreme court and the right-wing justices gave absolute immunity trump's cases got dismissed and now you have exactly what the liberal justices predicted what was going to happen or perhaps even worse and you'll recall those liberal justices gave hypotheticals.

1:01:13Ben Meiselas:What happens if SEAL Team Six goes and kills this person and that person? Immunity? Yes, immunity. Right-wing justices? Yes, immunity? Yes, immunity. They were building, Trump's lawyers, the contours of what that looks like. And what it looks like is pretty much limitless authoritarian power. And as we see taking this episode full circle, that when Trump is cornered, he does back down. When he is cornered, he does respond. And so if you had prison time and jail as a thing, that would actually serve as an accountability lever. Last thing I'll talk about just very briefly, the reflecting pool litigation.

1:01:54Ben Meiselas:A Trump appointed judge, Judge Carl Nichols, has ordered the Trump administration to respond regarding what the hell is even happening with the reflecting pool. The people who brought the lawsuit predicted this was going to happen if you don't hire the right contractors and the inspectors and you don't go through the right process. This happens. There's a reason why there's process, because you want to make sure you hire people with experience and all of that. And right now we're seeing what happens when you have Trump donors and cronies involved in this. And then what does Donald Trump do right back to the playbook.

1:02:32Ben Meiselas:Antifa, vandals, the election was stolen. It's rigged. And now you see the reflecting pool and it's filled with national guard and fences and weird AI machines and detection software. And I mean, it looks like a stupid police state, you know, you know, They are doing police surveillance on a reflecting pool. I cannot think about what makes us look dumber as a country than this. And it's a national humiliation. That's a national disgrace. It really is humiliating. And I have hope that more of the country does not support this regime than supports this regime. But, you know, I'll end with this. we really need to listen to what people are saying right now more than ever.

1:03:27Ben Meiselas:You need to listen to what people are experiencing. Their pain and suffering and psychological torture is real. It's not made up. It's not a talking point. It's not, I'm going to move you 2.2 points to Democrat or this candidate. No, no. Listen to what people are saying and fight for people, defend the people. To me, that's such a basic message. And as we move closer and closer to the midterms and we have these primaries, everybody wants to dissect, you know, the pundit class wants to dissect this and that and say, this is what the Democratic part. No, that's what the democratic parties know this is what this is top just listen to what people are experiencing empathize truly understand what they're going through if you're not capable of doing that get the hell out of the way and let people have positions that can influence policy that actually care about people.

1:04:38Ben Meiselas:Listen, deliver, fight. It's the basic message here on the Midas Touch Network and Legal AF. Great honor filling in for Michael Popak. We miss him. Don't worry, he'll be back soon. Great to be here with Karen Friedman Agnifolo. We're so appreciative of all the Legal AF followers at here. Reminder, subscribe to the Legal AF YouTube channel. Subscribe to the Legal AF Substack. Let's keep them on top of the charts. Thank you everybody for watching and tuning into this episode of Legal AF. We'll see you next time. Shout out Legal AF for a shout out Midas Mighty.

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