Legal AF Full Episode - 1/31/2026

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28:02Ben Meiselas:Welcome back to Legal AF. Thank you to all of our sponsors who make this show possible. The discount codes for those sponsors are in the description below. My younger brother, Jordy, spends a long time with those sponsors to get you the great discounts there. So check them out. It also supports our show. Popak, I'll let you take it away.

28:21Michael Popok:Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, you and I all watched it four months ago, the information swirling around about conflicts of interest with Howard Lutnick and buying his townhouse from Epstein or from a group that was controlled by Epstein. He decides to go on on his own. Nobody told him what to say. No one scripted it. And he decides to separate himself from Epstein and say how disgusted he was, grossed out he was, a massage table, oh my God, and then throw Democrats under the bus while he's doing it. Knowing he had to have known that one day the Epstein files were going to come out and his email or, you know, the email exchange about, hey, I'll be in your neighborhood near the island with a bunch of other people and my children and here's their ages.

29:01Michael Popok:Let's meet for lunch on, you know, the day before Christmas. You know, great, let's do it. and other things connecting him to Epstein years after he says he no longer had any contact. One comment after we play this clip, he was reached for comment about him being in the Epstein files by the New York Times or other reporters. And his response was, I've had no, I've had zero contact with him. Click. As if that magical thinking of hanging up the phone was going to stop the reporting or the story. Let's play it.

29:29Ben Meiselas:He was your neighbor for 10 years. How well did you know him? All right. So we are in number 11 and he lives in number nine. Right. So we renovate, we buy our house and our house is pigeons and mice. Right. Okay. That's it. It was derelict. Right. So we build, we rebuild our house. We move in in 2005. Okay. Jeffrey Epstein is arrested in like 08, I think. Right. So knock on the door, his assistant, on like a Saturday, says,

30:00Michael Popok:Mr. Epstein, your neighbor would like to invite you over for coffee. So my wife and I go next door.

30:08Ben Meiselas:We walk seven steps to the next house for coffee. We share a wall. So it's in New York City. So he invites us in. We have coffee in this. And he says, do you want a tour? We said, great. Interesting. It's a really big house. Every room you went into? He's got it. Well, I'll tell you. So his house is like super big, really wide. And so he gives me a tour in the living room, big living room. And then across from it is double doors. I assume it's the dining room. Yeah.

30:41Michael Popok:And he opens the doors and there's a massage table in the middle of the room and candles all around and stuff. So I ask very insightful, cutting questions. I say to him, massage table in the middle of your house? how often you have a massage and he says every day and then he like gets like weirdly close to me

31:06Ben Meiselas:and he says and the right kind of massage now my wife is standing here so she looks at me and I look at her and we say, I'm sorry, we have to go. And we left.

31:26Michael Popok:And in the six or eight steps it takes to get from his house to my house, my wife and I decided that I will never be in the room with that disgusting person ever again. So I was never in the room with him socially, for business or even philanthropy.

31:48Ben Meiselas:If that guy was there, I wasn't going because he's gross.

31:54Michael Popok:Except seven years later, when he arranged to charter a yacht and go with another family with all of their children, including the two sons that are now in their thirties and run his company to spend the day and lunch on the island and other connectivity. Let me ask you something, Ben, he knows he's in the files. These other men know that they're in the files, whether it's the media baron out who's running the Olympics out in California, or it's the Royals again, or others. Why don't they get ahead of the story and tell the truth? Do they just think it was going to

32:29Ben Meiselas:be buried forever? These are the same guys who hung out with Jeffrey Epstein. So you're asking, why are people who hang out with the leader of a child sex trafficking ring, why do they behave certain ways? These are sick individuals. Like I can try to give you deeper. I mean, these are sick, sociopathic, deeply disturbed individuals who take the issues that they're dealing with and their own demented and disgusting and vile minds. And then they go back out and they project it on the rest of the world to make everybody suffer. And that's what unites all of these people right here. I mean, to your point, I mean, we're looking at messages from Matthew Lutnick, Howard Lutnick, subject Jeffrey Epstein.

33:20Ben Meiselas:Good morning, Howard. Jeffrey wished me to pass along the below to you. Nice seeing you. Please read number two dot three. and this is December 24th, 2012, after they talk about meeting together where Howard Lutnick is reaching out to Epstein. Hi, Jeff. I just want to read it even though I know everybody trusts me when I say this is what happened, but let me just read the words to you here so I could just explain to you and we could share with you how sociopathic it is what you just saw. Is this with the ages? Yeah. Hi, Jeff. We are landing in St. Thomas early Saturday afternoon and planning to head over to St.

34:00Ben Meiselas:Bart's on Monday at some point. Where are you located? What is the exact location for my captain? Does Sunday evening for dinner sound good? I have another couple, Michael and Marcy Lehrman with me on my boat. And each of us has four children, two 16s, two 14s, a 13, a 12, an 11, and a seven-year-old. And then they go back and forth coordinating that. As it relates to Donald Trump in the files, there was this memo, subject, Ray Epstein cellmate interview from FBI officials to each other. Jane Doe stated Epstein introduced her to Trump, who subsequently forced her head down to his exposed penis, which is subsequently bit.

34:45Ben Meiselas:In response, Trump punched her in the head and kicked her out. Jane Doe remembers Epstein introduced her to Trump saying, this is a good one, huh? And Trump responded, yes. I mean, in terms of what people expect to see in these files, you know, Popak, you know, when we go through some of these things, and again, to be clear, those were allegations in a memo from FBI agents to FBI agents. The correspondence from Lutnick to Epstein, those aren't allegations. That's what he wrote. This is Lutnick's message to Jeff. Hi, Jeff. After you saw him say he was disgusting. So to your point, Popak, I can try to get into the mind of a sociopath, but I need not.

35:27Ben Meiselas:These are bad people who were part of a cabal together, who did bad things, and who right now in 2026 are continuing to do bad things because they're bad, evil people. You know, and the question is, what is the point of a court system and law and order if bad people are not held accountable? In Brazil, their bad leader who led an insurrection, Bolsonaro, got put in prison basically for the rest of his life. And when he tried to escape, the Brazilian Supreme Court went out and like personally arrested him. And our Supreme Court in the United States, which was supposed to be a more modern democracy or whatever the hell you want to say, gave him absolute immunity, gave Trump absolute immunity and said, you're a king, basically, when our whole constitution was against kings and against absolute immunity.

36:19So at some point, we have to ask ourselves, there's no logic to it, Popak, other than these are sociopaths.

36:26Ben Meiselas:Lutnik gets on, he lies. Elon Musk lies. These are lying liars who lie every day when they breathe. And it's Trump, all these people. I mean, you have Elon Musk appeared 1400 times and his emails are when he said, I've never been to the island. And, you know, he said all these things about other people on the island. And I don't know if he or others were like reposting fake lists of other people who weren't actually on the island many months ago. Elon Musk is in emails asking Epstein, when's the wildest night to go on the island when's the wildest night well anyway let's just talk todd blanche for a moment because you showed that you showed that let me share this with you uh though as well uh you showed the todd blanche clip before the break let me just share with you this has todd blanche right here at the press conference admitting there's so people can hear it in your own you know hear it for yourself that only three million of six million collected have been produced in the plan of split.

37:22Ben Meiselas:We erred on the side of over-collection of materials from various sources to best ensure maximum transparency and compliance, which necessarily means that the number of responsive pages is significantly smaller than the total number of pages initially collected. That's why I mentioned a moment ago, we're releasing more than 3 million pages today and not the 6 million pages that we collected. That's not what the law says. Now, if you want to prepare a report that talks about the deduping that you did, removing duplicates or removing inadvertent collection of files that weren't actually the Epstein files, prepare your report and lay that out.

38:07Ben Meiselas:but I don't know what you're talking about that you ingested six million and you're only producing three because you erred on the side of over collection you should err on the side of what the law is and the law is you go to the SDNY you go to the southern district of Florida you go to the treasury department and various other people have Epstein files you take it you do all you do is you redact the victims names and the survivors names and their faces and other personal identifying information, you produce it. It's actually a relatively easy task that they're trying to act like it's the most complex thing ever.

38:42Michael Popok:There's a bigger problem though, Ben, bigger problem in the use of the term documents versus pages. You and I report, it's worse. You and I reported that back before Christmas, it was 5.2 million documents, not pages. If you look at every report coming out of Blanche, it was documents. A document is multiple pages. The average multiple pages for the Epstein files based on the first tranche that came out was 10, meaning it was 50 million pages. They've only produced 3 million pages. Let's get apples to apples here against 50 million pages. Sometimes even the Congress people confuse it between the pages of the documents.

39:26Michael Popok:If he's right, if we're doing apples to apples, there is not just half missing. We've only gotten 3 million out of 50 million pages. That's just about less than 10%. Okay. That's, that's, that's my other position. That's why the House Oversight Committee, the Judiciary Committee got to get to the bottom of it and figure out if we're talking about pages or documents, and what is the volume that's missing and why.

39:49Ben Meiselas:Normally in a litigation, the way Popak or myself or any litigator would figure out the universe of documents is you would take a deposition of somebody called the PMK or the PMQ, a person most knowledgeable or a person most qualified who knows about the document systems. And you would spend seven hours with that person in a deposition, just going through the corpus of documents that exist. Where are the documents? Where are they located? Who's involved in the searching? Were key term search used? How did this happen? And because the DOJ is serving as their own judge of the compliance of the Epstein Transparency Act and taking the position that courts can't enforce it, this is what you're left with.

40:36Ben Meiselas:But we're going to stay on the job here at the Midas Touch Network and Legal AF. And we're going to keep looking into this and we're going to keep asking questions. The cover up continues. But also at that Todd Blanche press conference, he was asked a question about Tulsi Gabbard's role when she appeared at the Fulton County election offices where Trump's FBI got a search warrant, by the way, not signed from federal prosecutors in Georgia. OK, that's a red flag, number one. Red flag number two is why is the director of national intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, at the Fulton County election offices grabbing and confiscating 2020 ballots?

41:19Ben Meiselas:When Trump lost, there were hand recounts, electronic recounts, the Republican governor of the state, the Republican secretary of state, the Republican commissioners who were all involved, all say the 2020 election was a free and fair election and Trump's continuing down this path. But watch what Todd Blanche says about Tulsi Gabbard's appearance at the Fulton County offices where the election ballots were taken. Here, play this clip.

41:47Michael Popok:To follow up on that regarding Fulton County, can you explain Tulsi Gabbard's role in DOJ activity?

41:54Ben Meiselas:Could you please explain Tulsi Gabbard's role in DOJ activity regarding the Fulton County search? What do you mean her role? It was reported that... She happened to be present in Atlanta. I mean, yes, I saw the same photo as you did. I mean, she doesn't work for the Department of Justice or the FBI. She's an extraordinarily important part of this administration. this administration coordinates everything we do as a group. And so I think her presence shouldn't be, there shouldn't be questioned, of course. I mean, that's a big part of her job. And so the fact that she was present in Atlanta that day, you know, is something that shouldn't surprise anybody.

42:38Ben Meiselas:She just happened to be there. She was just hanging out. That's what they're saying. Just hanging out, Bopak.

42:44Michael Popok:All right. Let's talk about Tulsi Gabbard for a minute, who's on the hit list for impeachment when Democrats hopefully regain power at the midterms. Tulsi Gabbard is irrelevant. Tulsi Gabbard knows that she's irrelevant because, let's use an example, the capture of Maduro during an attempt to take over the oil fields of Venezuela and take out its leader and send him to New York. Up on the stage were all men. No Pam Bondi, even though this was claimed to be a law enforcement proceeding or action. No Tulsi Gabbard from the intelligence community. Her underling, John Ratcliffe of the CIA is there, Secretary of Defense, Secretary of State.

43:31Michael Popok:They're all there, but Tulsi's not there. In fact, on or about the time that they were operating to take out Maduro, which should have been part of her job, where is Tulsi Gabbard? She's in Hawaii at a yoga retreat, sending the world a message of peace and love. In fact, we have the Instagram posting when she should have been in Washington during this meeting. Okay, so there she is in some sort of yoga pose instead of doing her job, and setting out messages of peace during a war effort by Donald Trump. This is the second time she's been tin-eared about things that she has said. While Donald Trump was about to bomb Iran, she comes out and talks about the horrors of bombing in Hiroshima at the same time.

44:19Michael Popok:And the reporting was that Trump called her on the carpet, literally in the White House, and said, get on board and stop promoting your own agenda and running for president, or you're not going to be in my administration any longer. So she must have got the message. Now she, like Pam Bondi, is like scrambling around for something to do. So she sends herself to Fulton County, Georgia, to stand there with a cosplaying baseball cap again, like from the Christy Noem collection, to watch the raid of the Fulton County documents from 2020. Let's talk about Fulton County for a minute. Besides the fact that violates law and senators and Democratic congresspeople are getting to the bottom as to why Tulsi Gabbard, in violation of law, is involved with local law enforcement activities as the director of national intelligence.

45:09Michael Popok:And their comment to the press corps was, she's going to continue to make our elections safe. Now, look, Donald Trump didn't win Georgia, but he was certainly not going to win Fulton County, which is where Atlanta sits, where he lost by over 70, 70 percent. Even if you thought there were fraud, let's just give a number that's never happened in history. Five percent. The most fraud we've ever had, as every independent entity has ever looked at it, is in the 0.01 percentile. Let's just say one percentile. Make it five percent. He still loses by a landslide in Fulton County. His buddy who got some sort of congressional presidential award, Rudy Giuliani, he is on the hook for$158 or$160 million defamation and libel judgment because he went after two election workers, Ruby Freeman and Shea Moss, and claimed that they were switching votes from a box underneath their table.

46:11Michael Popok:Right now we're back to the Venezuela software and the and and the Venezuela manipulation through Dominion and Smartmatic of votes in Fulton County. Billions of dollars of settlements have been paid or adjudged as a result of these very same allegations. Lawyers have been convicted and lost their law licenses over it. So now is the time for a theater piece, for performative theater to go send in somebody to go raid Fulton County about 2020. And then, like you said, to send Tulsi Gabbard in and somehow argue that this is a national security issue for which she has responsibility or part of her remit.

46:54Michael Popok:Donald Trump had a cybersecurity entity that was responsible for ensuring our elections were safe. And he immediately fired that person and killed that office when he got back. You know, he fired that person in 2020, Chris Krebs, who testified that 2020 was the most safe and secure election in the history of America. Fired. And then when he got around back into office, he dismantled the cybersecurity office that he created to help secure elections. Because just to be clear, so people have on our audience true truth, understanding and true facts. When Donald Trump and MAGA talk about voter fraud, just translate that.

47:44Michael Popok:We can use a Legal AF Dakota ring. Just translate that. They're talking about taking away your right to vote. They want to suppress the vote. They want to use the excuse of voter fraud to do it because we don't really have voter fraud problem in America. Other countries, maybe. We've never had. We never will have. We have too many competent people in 50 states at the state level that are running their elections properly. When we talk about election interference, it's not from the equipment standpoint and the vote counting standpoint. We talk about election interference in bad people and bad governments and government agents around the world who troll America and try to brainwash America through social media postings, now through AI and other things to try to get them to hate Hillary Clinton or like Donald Trump or think Joe Biden's mentally incapacitated or on both sides, but mainly against the Democrats.

48:42Michael Popok:And that's what we talk about. We talk about election interference. But Donald Trump wants to continue to rewrite that chapter of history that made him out to be an insurrectionist and impeached. And so he's going after John Brennan, the former head of the CIA, in grand juries down in Florida. Not yet, at least. Hasn't happened yet. He's going after the intelligence community. He's going after the Clintons. He's going after Barack Obama. He's going after Fulton County because he wants to use his Department of Justice, FBI, and intelligence community while he still has them under his command and control to help rewrite these chapters of history.

49:18Michael Popok:The reality is these chapters are not being rewritten. Maybe in the dark red states, you know, their textbooks may read something differently. But to the historians of the world, to generations of the world, this is the most corrupt and failed presidency that we've ever had, especially in year one. We see it. The public sees it. The polling sees it. The judges see it. Everybody sees it. But Donald Trump's going down his list of things he wants to do. He knows his time is running short. I mean, the thing that scares the crap out of Donald Trump, even though he won't admit it, is that he's going to get impeached again at the midterms.

49:56Michael Popok:So he knows his time and he's going to be the lamest of lame duck presidents in another, it's hard to believe we can finally, the light is at the end of the tunnel, just months away to an election. And when that happens, and in a 2027, when the, when the impeachment proceedings, I mean, you and I will be, we can make a full, we're going to have to create a channel, the impeachment, legal AF impeachment channel, where we're just going to do articles of impeachment and the impeachment proceedings against all of these people. Justice is coming. And I know we say that a lot here, but it is coming.

50:27Michael Popok:We're just at that moment now where right before the ebb, we're moving towards, you know, we're moving towards that. But this Fulton County thing, this is just a performative bullshit art piece that should be completely ignored except for violations of law.

50:40Ben Meiselas:You know, I would, though, say it's obvious that what Trump is trying to do is to obstruct the midterms and in a very authoritarian but sloppy way at the same time, which is very Trumpian sloppy plus want to be authoritarian equals Trumpian and a very loser way, you know, testing out different things. ICE and Border Patrol Gestapo invading cities? Can I literally take over a blue state, blue cities, Minneapolis, St. Paul in Minnesota? Can I do that? What's the reaction going to be if I go into Maine and do an invasion there? Use Somalians as pretext. Let me try to blame the Armenian community in California and say that, you know, use that as a pretext to go and attack California.

51:32Ben Meiselas:You know, obviously the efforts with trying to gerrymander the country to pick up seats backfired on Donald Trump. Thankfully, California Governor Gavin Newsom with Prop 50 pushed back using his formal and moral authority against Trump. Democrats were able to basically neutralize the Texas play. And then Trump went to red states. Democrats like they're doing in Virginia are showing you do it, we do it. And then because gerrymandering in general is unpopular, especially the way MAGAs are doing it by not putting it on a ballot, but forcing it through a legislature, you've been able to neutralize that.

52:10Ben Meiselas:In fact, Democrats look like that they're going to actually pick up seats as a result of Trump's mid-decade redistricting, dummymander play. And so to me, I'm not quite even sure if the Trump regime people know what they're doing with these ballots yet, other than they got an order for Donald Trump. Take it. Come up with something, take it, and then we'll figure it out. But what they want to figure out is a way to overthrow the midterms and to create a pretext for it. So, you know, and my not that I disagree with you, Popak, but my thought is we need to look at that space very seriously because it's obvious that this is a play to shut down or to change the results or to rig the midterms because that's right out of the authoritarian playbook.

52:55Ben Meiselas:And all the stuff that Trump's doing is not he's not inventing these things. These sociopathic authoritarians throughout history have engaged in this type of conduct. And Trump is doing this playbook. And America, our Constitution, and what we used to mean to the world was the opposite of what was really the sad state of human condition, which was sociopathic authoritarians who hoard power and use it. to inflict pain and torture on the people and to suck up all the resources for themselves and their oligarchs. And so we just need to be very focused on that space. All right.

53:36Michael Popok:Before you take your break, I like the connection you're making. Let me make one comment about it. The practice, I agree with you completely. It's been a practice run for this administration, dress rehearsal, the use of the National Guard on the streets of America. freaked out so many people that a federal judge, Judge Breyer, who's the brother of a former Supreme Court justice, gave a scenario in his own order against the National Guard's use, saying, what if a president claims that there has been voter fraud? Could he use the National Guard to seize voting machines and stop an election? Now, that sent a chill down everybody's spine.

54:11Michael Popok:So when we see him practicing on Americans, as he once said during his address of military generals and brass at Quantico, when we see the use of the National Guard, when we see the rating that is going on, not just in Fulton County, Georgia, but soon to be in other places, you're right. This is a dress rehearsal to see what he can get away with because he knows if people are able to vote in their interests based on polling, it's going to be a landslide against MAGA and his legacy in several months from now. You're right. It's a total dress rehearsal.

54:51Ben Meiselas:Let's take our last quick break of the show. A reminder, if you or someone you know has been injured in a car accident, a trucking accident, injured based on the negligence of somebody else or a third party, a company injured you, an employment case, sexual assault or harassment case, call 877-POPOC-AF or go to thepopocfirm.com. Call or text 877-POPOC-AF or go to thepopocfirm.com. That's Michael Popoc's law firm. He's got lawyers and staff across the countries who will take your call. The consultation is free. Don't be shy. And if you know someone who was involved in a wrongful death case or some catastrophic injury situation, reach out.

55:31Ben Meiselas:I mean, Popak's firm will take the call. And I know you trust Popak. So bring your case or bring your situation to Popak and he'll help you. Also, check out Legal AF on YouTube. Go search Legal AF on YouTube. Bring that channel to 2 million subscribers. and also check out Legal AF on Substack, one of the most viewed Substacks right now. Okay, last break of the show. We'll be right back. We're going to talk about Don Lemon. We'll talk about Georgia Fort, who was also arrested, a great journalist as well. She was the vice president, or is the vice president of the National Association of Black Journalists and DEA agents, like swarmed her house.

56:10Ben Meiselas:You know, Lemon was arrested, you know, by federal agents in Los Angeles. That's not the way this is supposed to go. First off, this whole thing is ridiculous and, you know, just completely authoritarian. But then even the way they handle the arrest is just, we'll break it all down for you. Let's take our last break of the show.

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59:36Ben Meiselas:Welcome back to Legal AF. Thank you to all of our sponsors. Once again, description, the discount codes are in the description below for those sponsors. My younger brother, Jordy, works hard with Popak and others to bring you good discount codes and those sponsors support our show. So support those sponsors and great products, great stuff. So just go and check it out. All right, let's talk about this arrest of Don Lemon, especially in the context of Donald Trump's assault on the First Amendment, his assault on independent media, his assault on reporters who he doesn't like. Full disclosure, Don Lemon's a close personal friend of mine.

1:00:12Ben Meiselas:He was at my wedding when he stepped into the independent journalist space. There was a time where I was speaking with Don Lemon maybe twice a day or three times a day when he comes out to California. I was probably going to hang out with him again in the next few days. He got arrested. But in the past, when he's come out to California, I meet up with him. Popak was at my wedding. Lemmon's at my, these are my friends. Lemmon's also someone who I've admired throughout his career. I always thought he was someone who spoke truth to power. I think he would even be forced to admit if he's allowed to admit it or not.

1:00:46Ben Meiselas:I don't know that being in corporate news had its limitations and held back what you can say. But obviously, with his independent platform, he's been able to, you know, truly speak his mind. But he was always someone who was able to speak his mind thoughtfully before. But now it's been, you know, certainly at a scale that I think certainly meets the moment even more than it did before. And we all know the story. He showed up in Minneapolis, in St. Paul. He was chronicling the protest and what was taking place. He learned of a protest at a St. Paul church. He shows up as a reporter. There were other reporters there, including Georgia Fort.

1:01:25Ben Meiselas:He identifies himself as a member of the press while he's videotaping a protest at this church. And the reason why there was a protest at the church is that it was believed that a church official was a ICE leader or was supporting the ICE raids that was terrorizing the communities. And the Trump regime said that it was a violation of something called the FACE Act, F-A-C-E, which was originally created to... Help women or protect women from getting violently assaulted and beaten and attacked when they were getting reproductive health care, go abortion clinics. And, you know, you'd have these right wing extremists attack them, physically intimidate, threaten, hurt, inflict violence.

1:02:11Ben Meiselas:And so a law needed to be created to prevent that from happening in order to make the law on a bipartisan basis. There was another provision that said also you can't physically intimidate and physically harass or threaten or use force against people who are praying at a church. That was lumped together in a bill that became the FACE Act basically. And so what we saw happen was protesters started chanting. I didn't even see the protesters engage in any physical force and intimidation. intimidation. If I'm trying to, you know, see any potential argument out there, could one argue the protest was disorderly conduct?

1:02:50Ben Meiselas:That's not the FACE Act, you know, being loud and ratty. I don't even think it meets the definition of a misdemeanor, disorderly conduct, state level, you know, charge. Let's be clear. I represented Colin Kaepernick, you know, who took a knee in protest and everyone's saying, why are you protesting during the games? We don't want to see that. Protests make people feel uncomfortable. That's the point of a protest. You know what's more uncomfortable than seeing a protest? Seeing somebody get shot in the face. You want to know what's more uncomfortable than seeing somebody getting shot in the face?

1:03:18Ben Meiselas:Getting shot in the face, okay? Alex Preti and Renee Nicole Good, the people who have died at detention centers, the Americans and others in this country who have been killed, who have been sprayed with gaseous substances in their face, who have been attacked, who have been shot with pepper spray. That's more uncomfortable, okay, than having people protest to bring attention to the terror and torture that's taking place. But in any event, if you want to say, hey, there's some sort of misdemeanor disorderly conduct, it's a private space, even though I then argue churches should be open to everybody, you know, whatever.

1:03:51Ben Meiselas:But FACE Act, the federal law says physical threats, physical violence, physical intimidation, not utilizing your First Amendment right as protesters, Even if your protest is loud, even if your protest is disruptive, there's a difference between disruptive conduct and physical intimidation and physical attacks, which is in there. But Don Lemon wasn't even protesting. So I just want to make that distinction, too, because I don't think the protesters engaged in any crimes, yet alone the Federal Face Act crime. Lemon said, I'm a reporter. I'm here videotaping. That's all I'm doing. When someone at the church touched Lemon, Lemon said, please don't touch me.

1:04:30Ben Meiselas:I'm just here to report. And Lemon repeatedly said on the live stream over, I'm not with them. I'm here to report. Like he said it multiple times out loud. So with all of that, Trump and Pam Bondi and Harmeet Dillon and all of the people in this Trump regime wanted Don Lemon arrested, though, because the right wing base on Twitter now arrest Don Lemon, arrest Don Lemon. You need to arrest him. And I guess they figured that's a good issue for their base, which is post-constitution, anti-constitution, you know, but they then go Don Lemon. They try to get a magistrate judge to sign off on a criminal complaint against Don Lemon.

1:05:13Ben Meiselas:That fails. They go to the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeal. That fails. Popak in a bit, you'll talk about this Judge Schiltz who had to even send a letter to the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals. And this same judge is a George W. Bush appointee who's this past week said that this Trump ICE has violated hundreds of court orders already in January alone, more than agencies have violated in their entire existence. That's what ICE has done. And he's never seen anything like this before. So the getting a magistrate judge to sign a criminal complaint that fails, then they go for this indictment. They somehow get an indictment, which we'll learn more about.

1:05:50Ben Meiselas:Remember, they got indictments of Comey and Letitia James. Okay. And yes, you can indict a ham sandwich, but there were grand juries that didn't indict Letitia James after that first indictment, um, succeeded. But then Lindsay Halligan, we learned did all of this misconduct in the grand jury in the Eastern district of Virginia, gave the grand jury incorrect legal rules, didn't show them evidence, brought somebody who stole attorney client information, you know, and engaged in all of this, you know, misconduct. So one of the things we'll see, and I'll flag, I'll turn it over to you, Popak, though, is we don't know what went down in the grand jury room.

1:06:25Ben Meiselas:I doubt the Trump regime's lawyers who they sent in there who apparently are not Minnesota or not lawyers from Los Angeles. I mean, these are lawyers they brought in just for this. I doubt those lawyers showed the full video or showed the full evidence. My gut is they brought in a single FBI agent, the FBI agent, who's a Trump regime lackey. I'm just giving you my guess because this is what we've seen before. I'm hypothesizing based on past experience of this Trump regime. Gave a hearsay story because you can do that in grand juries. Yes. Did you physically intimidate? Yes, he did. What do you see him do?

1:07:03Ben Meiselas:I saw him got in front of the door and the evidence shows he pushed back. Anything else you saw? No. Does that constitute physical intimidation, Mr. FBI officer? Yes, it does. All right, grand jury, physical intimidation. You heard the FBI officer. So if you believe physical intimidation, you have to sign this. That's my gut when we find the grand jury transcript, what's actually, what actually went down. But in any event, they then arrest Don Lemon in Los Angeles with federal agents. Also Georgia Fort, another reporter who was doing the same thing Lemon was doing, who was videotaping it. They sent like DEA dressed as SWAT teams to her house and basically scared her to death and scared her family.

1:07:39Ben Meiselas:And what you're supposed to do in situations like this is, you know, one, not do this in the first place, but you would get a warrant. You would reach out to the person like a Don Lemon or a Georgia for you would say, show up. You've been criminally indicted. You would negotiate a surrender. And that's what happens. But the Trump regime wanted the theatrics. They wanted perp walks. They wanted to inflict fear and pain. And that's what they're doing. Popak, take it from there and maybe connect Judge Schiltz's order.

1:08:05Michael Popok:Okay. Well, let's start with Judge Schiltz. I said on a hot take, and I still believe, the Judge Schiltz, who is the right-wing, former Antonin Scalia on the Supreme Court clerk, Republican appointee, chief judge of all the judges of the district courts of Minnesota, who was assigned to a number of cases involving the Trump administration so far. When he wrote his letter and his email, which I've rarely seen in 35 years, constituting his response to Pam Bondi's attempt to get an arrest warrant against Don Lemon for the very thing that you've at length described, he, the chief judge, effectively vouched for Don Lemon that he didn't commit any crimes.

1:08:54Michael Popok:There's no other way to interpret Judge Schultz's writing to the Eighth Circuit, who asked him, we're about to decide whether we should issue an order forcing you to issue an arrest warrant overriding the decision of a magistrate judge, which never in the history of the Eighth Circuit of any federal court has that ever happened. How do I know that? Because Judge Schultz did a survey and told the Eighth Circuit that. Tell us what your thoughts are. And the judge wrote an email and a letter and said, I'm at home because it's snowing and I have a child, an adult child who has special needs, but I'm going to write to you about an application that I can't see, that I don't know what it says, that seems to be sealed even against me, and you want me to respond, but I have a pretty good idea how I should respond.

1:09:37Michael Popok:And in that letter, in that email, he said that the journalist and the producer, which is Don Lemon and his producer, did not commit a crime. And that's why he's not going to override, he shouldn't be forced to override the magistrate judge, who also found that Don Lemon and the producer were exercising First Amendment freedom of the press rights and didn't commit a crime. Anybody that follows Don Lemon's channel the way you and I do, as not even casual observers, as people that know Don, know that Don does live reporting a lot, okay? If you were bored on New Year's and you didn't want to watch the ball drop, you could have tuned into Don Lemon in New Orleans doing whatever Don was doing at the time and recording it for his live feed, okay?

1:10:17Michael Popok:That's what reporters do. You know, we got Katie Fang, who's a friend of ours as well, who's out in Minnesota right now doing live reporting just because even if she knew, even if she knew that there was going to be a protest at a certain moment and showed up to get the exclusive, it doesn't make her a co-conspirator with the people that did the protest. See, what Todd Blanche, back to Blanche again, what Blanche said is in an interview on Fox a week or so ago is so-called journalist Don Lemon embedding himself with agitators is not going to give him any kind of protection. All right, let's stop right there.

1:10:53Michael Popok:Wherever you ply your trade, and frankly, hardcore journalists are now plying their trade on YouTube as we are, on Substack as we are, and they're not on mainstream media. See exhibit A flow of mainstream media onto YouTube platforms like Midas and Substacks. Okay. And the fact that they think Don Lemon after 17 years on CNN, who's in a fight with Elon Musk over him being deplatformed and violating a contract when Elon Musk was going to put Don Lemon on and the Don Lemon show. And I don't want anybody to think for a minute these things are unrelated. The fact that Elon Musk would love to see Don Lemon in handcuffs.

1:11:37Michael Popok:Okay. You don't think that played into this calculus? Come on. So just because Don's on YouTube with a channel like I am, like you are, doesn't undermine our First Amendment right. The Constitution's founders and framers didn't say that there's a First Amendment freedom of the press, except for people that are on a YouTube channel or on Substack. They didn't write that out with a quill pen. OK, so where he applies his trade. I don't care if he's in an old van riding around with a shortwave radio telling people his opinions. He has a First Amendment right. And I don't care whether, as is alleged in the indictment, they met for coffee before and he knew that they were going to, okay, journalists get tipped off all the time about it.

1:12:20Michael Popok:He didn't plan it. And, of course, to troll Don and the American people and us particularly, you've got Harmeet Dillon, who, full disclosure, you and I know, I litigated against her and with her in cases. Harmeet Dillon, who's busy chloroforming the Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice, trolled everybody, including Don Lemon, by putting up, retweeting a comment where somebody said something about the KKK Act, the Ku Klux Klan Act of conspiracy being used against Don Lemon in a conspiracy to deprive civil liberties and civil rights, which was used when the KKK went after newly freed slaves to deny them their rights.

1:13:01Michael Popok:It's also being used against Donald Trump right now in a civil matter still going on by the Metro Police and the Capitol Police in front of Judge Mehta in D.C. So she wrote or somebody wrote and she retweeted, Don Lemon's now a Klansman. Like, you know, because the African-American, the black journalist is now being under the KKK Act. So in Minnesota, every federal judge, magistrate and chief judge that looked at the facts said no arrest warrant because no crime. And so that, as I said in hot takes, that doesn't stop them from trying to get a grand jury to indict. Now, there's been a couple of grand juries they either didn't present to or they finally found one based, as you said, on.

1:13:50Michael Popok:Let's just talk about grand jury process for a minute, because sometimes we do shorthand and I don't want to. Who's in the room? The defense is not in the room. The defendant is not in the room. The lawyers for the defendant is not in the room. And you don't even need to bring in actual witnesses. And certainly the other co-defendants are not in the room. It's just the prosecutor. and if you're right, I believe you are, an FBI, a sort of roadmap witness, you know, somebody we call a composite witness or somebody that just testifies about having, I reviewed the evidence and let me tell you what the evidence says.

1:14:25So it's like hearsay, you know, there's nobody to

1:14:28Michael Popok:push back and cross-examine it. And then they just put that up. The guy's saying there was a meeting in a coffee shop. Don Lemon was at the meeting. Then they went to the church and then Don Lemon was filming, but he's a fake journalist and therefore conspiracy. Ta-da. They put up a board with the elements and they asked the jury, the grand jury to vote and return an indictment.

1:14:50Ben Meiselas:And by the way, it can literally be 10 minutes just so people know. It can literally be just that 10 minutes in and out.

1:14:56Michael Popok:We know that as to go back to an earlier story tonight on Legal AF, In the Epstein indictment of Maxwell, Judge Engelmeyer revealed that it was one FBI agent who gave us, it's called a summary witness, who gave summary testimony of his review of files. And the jury returned an indictment of, like you said, 15 or 20 minutes that eventually got sustained through a conviction. But that's how it can happen. Now, just because there's an indictment doesn't mean it's going to stick or that a federal judge, in this case, back in Minnesota, it's going to be back in Minnesota, right, Ben? The indictment's out of Minnesota.

1:15:37Ben Meiselas:It is, yeah.

1:15:38Michael Popok:All right. So it's going to be a federal judge assigned to the case. Not sure who, as we're recording, who the federal judge is, but one of them that has been struggling against the Trump administration could be Menendez, could be Schiltz, could be Tostrip. There's a whole bunch of judges there who are going to handle this case. And immediately, Abby Lowell, who, as I've said before, is going to be one of the action figures, you know, superhero action figures coming out of this administration, along with Don and maybe you, Ben, maybe Legal AF, that kids can have on their shelf. because Abby's representing Letitia James, representing Dr.

1:16:14Michael Popok:Lisa Cook on the Federal Reserve, representing here Don Lemon and rushing into the fire that is the Trump Department of Justice and Justice System to defend Don Lemon. And now we got it. He got arrested, got an arraignment. Now it's going to be motion practice that he's going to argue this is a First Amendment right that's being violated and the evidence doesn't support it. We'll see what's going to happen. And you and I will cover it closely with the bond hearings and all of that. But this is nothing more than the Trump administration deciding to scratch Donald Trump's itch to go after media in order to have a chilling effect, not just on Don Lemon, because there's no way to chill Don Lemon, but to make the next reporter, maybe a younger reporter, think twice about following up on that story or asking that question or doing that reporting or a corporate media publishing that.

1:17:09Michael Popok:that investigative report. That's why Midas, ProPublica, all these independent entities that don't have corporate parents, that don't have to worry about a billionaire making a phone call to them. We don't have to worry about Jeff Bezos putting out the Melania documentary as an obvious bribe to the Trump administration, like don't touch my interest, don't touch my Washington Post, don't touch my Amazon. We don't have to worry about that. So these have to, it's the opposite. it. Don Lemon is independent journalism that has to survive. And this is the fight that we're going to see. Just like the Washington Post reporter who got raided at her home and had all of her devices initially captured before a federal judge stepped in.

1:17:54Michael Popok:This is what they're trying to do. Look at the puppet theater that you and I report on every day that is the press secretary's daily briefing. Or the other one we don't cover as much, but we should, which is the Pentagon briefing. It is now just filled with a bunch of right-wing social media influencers. Riley Gaines, the swimmer who's against all transgender rights, is now in the White House briefing room throwing softball pieces of birthday cake at Carolyn Levitt. And the two of them, I almost vomited watching the two of them in action. Oh, Riley Gaines, nice to have you here. You get the first question.

1:18:33Michael Popok:First, I want to say, you're going to be a girl mom. And I'm like, what are we doing? And then the Pentagon's even worse, because there they've decredentialed any legitimate reporter. And now you've got people like Laura Loomer at the Pentagon briefing, because this is what Donald Trump wants. And we have to be leading from the front, not from behind as independent journalists. I didn't get backed off. I didn't get chilled because of what happened to Don Lemon. I know you didn't. I know our networks and channels didn't. It redoubled our efforts to get on the air against all of the weight of the Trump administration.

1:19:13Ben Meiselas:If anything, to your point, it motivated us more and it shows the necessity of independent media right now. And as I've said before, like on this episode, I hope when you look back at it, there's really nothing that I think I said that was, oh, that should be the Democrats position or that's a Republican position or that's an independent position. To me, this is a law and order show. And that means actually enforcing the laws, making sure they're faithfully executed and calling out the facts where Howard Lutnick says, I never know a Jeffrey Epstein since 2000. And then he clearly did. That's disqualifying.

1:20:00Ben Meiselas:Where Elon Musk says that, that's disqualifying. Where Trump says that, that's disqualifying. I mean, anybody involved in that cabal, in my view, it's disqualifying. It's a very simple moral question. In addition to a legal one, it's a moral question also. Who are we as a society when ICE and Border Patrol Gestapo are torturing, terrorizing, killing? We see it. We see it. I know that's not good. I don't have to formulate a political opinion. I could form a moral opinion as well. And I want the law to reflect our values of a society when crimes are being committed. And if ICE and Border Patrol are engaged in criminality and terrorism, they need to be held accountable.

1:20:43Ben Meiselas:There shouldn't be discussions about funding them or the discussion should be about what can we do to prosecute these criminals? That's what we should be talking about. And I think the frustration we see from Judge Siltz, Popak, and I'll let you leave this episode on this, is here's this George W. Bush judge, the chief judge, I might add, of Minneapolis, who is a major member of the conservative bar, you know, somebody who you would, you know, someone who clerked for Justice Scalia, you know, someone whose life was as conservative as a jurist as, you know, you can be, you know, and this would be someone that you and I at law school, Popak, used to have good faith debates and discussions with about views, about textualism, originalism, states' rights, different amendments.

1:21:39Ben Meiselas:But we would ultimately try to reach solutions that were to the benefit of the country, but we would have legitimate good faith arguments. But now the conservative movement is co-opted and it is just a MAGA cult. And this Judge Schiltz, this chief judge in Minneapolis, he's out there basically saying, almost feeling alone and isolated right now with all these other judges. But he's under attack from MAGA because he's just saying our orders are being violated, that the Trump regime is not using warrants, that they're not giving bond hearings, that they are violating the Constitution every single day.

1:22:21Ben Meiselas:You know, and Judge Schiltz wrote a letter to the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals when the Trump regime tried to do an end run around the district court and file a mandamus petition against Judge Schiltz and not serve the document on him so he could read it. He's like, I have to send you a letter, 8th Circuit, because the Justice Department didn't even serve me with their filing right now. And so I don't even know what they're trying to say, other than I want to be clear that this Justice Department is rogue and they're engaged in conduct that I've never seen in my judicial career. That's a George W.

1:22:59Ben Meiselas:Bush as conservative as a judge saying that. Judge Ludig, who appears often on Legal AF and who you and I have become great friends with over the years. I mean, this is someone who was in line to be on the Supreme Court and his clerks often became the top judges across the country. And he was a right-wing conservative, and now he's like, that doesn't exist anymore. It's co-opted by MAGA. And at some point, Popak, we just have to recognize and call out that we're not in a constitutional crisis. We're past that. We are in an authoritarianism era. That's how this will be known in United States history.

1:23:46Ben Meiselas:And the question is, can we get out of it? A major part of its independent media. Another major part of it's going to be the incredible groups on the ground, peacefully protesting the authoritarian tactics, the movement of protesters continuing to grow, people putting pressure on our lawmakers, people showing real people power because our institutions have failed. our politicians have failed and it's for the people right now to take control and to push back and that's what's happening right now i'll give you the final word though popock no i think uh look

1:24:20Michael Popok:if any if anybody you say you said people look back they will find that i you we mean either i'm not i'm not uh i'm not pushing an agenda here i'm that's why i think we've been able to do this for over almost six years is that we're authentic and i couldn't keep this this is not like stephen Colbert acting like, you know, when he had his original show, like acting like a right-wing pundit when he wasn't. Now, this is us. This comes naturally to us because, and I think people trust that and respect that because we're speaking from the heart, from our own experiences, and we're giving you our objective opinion and commentary based on years of legal experience.

1:24:59Michael Popok:And, you know, we have a very good track record, I believe. And yet when people leave our show, they leave it with and hopefully new respect and new knowledge and new facts that they can use to do what we need them to do. It's not just about listening to us. It's about empowering our audience to go out into the marketplace of ideas, to go into the public square, whether that be social media, around your kitchen table, or literally on the streets, and express yourself with knowledge and to call out What we've seen and we know is the corrupt instincts of the Trump administration, its Department of Justice, its FBI, and things at the intersection of law and politics.

1:25:40Michael Popok:We want knowledge is power. And the only way that we're going to overcome the Trump administration and take back our country, you know, forget about making America great again. I'm just we're all patriots here on the Midas Touch Network and on Legal AF. We all care deeply, deeply about the United States, even if you're not from the United States or not in the United States. And that this experiment of our constitutional republic and democracy, that it survive and thrive and that it shakes off the yoke of the Trump era. All right. And so in order to do that, though, it takes millions and millions and millions and tens of millions and hundreds of millions of people joined together.

1:26:27Michael Popok:We got a fair tranche of that here weekly, daily, hourly on the Midas Touch Network on Unlegal AF between the two channels. You got two YouTube channels. You got seven, eight million people. Then you had all around. You got 10, 20 people, 10 or 20 million people there. And then the hundreds of millions that have to vote and not sit out this election the way, unfortunately, because maybe the candidates or the issues or whatever, they sat out the last election. They sat on the sidelines of democracy. And as you've said and I've said, there's no fence sitting here. This is about people-powered movement joining together.

1:27:02Michael Popok:Donald Trump recently, I almost gagged, he recently referred to the silent majority to be heard from. I agree. The silent majority, though, would appear to be completely against the criminality and lawlessness of the Trump administration and those around him. And as you said, all the people around him that came into power with him have this streak of larceny and criminality and kleptocracy and depravity that maybe in their prior lives wasn't fully exhibited. it, but once they got here with him, has now burst full blown. Todd Blanche might not have been an a-hole, sorry, against democracy and criminal justice and constitution when he was in private practice before, or when he was at the U.S.

1:27:50Michael Popok:Attorney's Office, as friends of mine have reported, but he is now, Howard Lutnick. I mean, you know, last I looked, he was a Democrat, and this thing that he's playing on television is just ruining our country and our society. It just seems like Stephen Miller, I think, has consistently always been Stephen Miller. And one thing you can say about him is he's very consistent. But the rest of them will be judged, not just in ratings and views on Midas and Legal AF, but by courts and oversight committee hearings and impeachment hearings and the Department of Justice when it's taken over by true patriots and Democrats and like-minded people, even Republicans.

1:28:31Michael Popok:I said I was doing a keynote for the national trial lawyers this last week and a whole bunch of lawyers, hundreds and hundreds of them in the room. And somebody stood up and asked me a question, who is a Republican? And said, what can Republicans do to reclaim the party? And I said, that's a very good point because we are one party short of a two-party system right now. We've got a party. It's called the Democratic Party. Then we've got this other thing that's like a cult, like a populist cult that is not held together with much, as we've seen, because we're watching the cannibalization and the implosion of that party.

1:29:10Michael Popok:But for a healthy democracy, we need a reformation, a remediation from within of the Republican Party when they have to shake off the yoke of Donald Trump and his MAGA personality, cult of personality, and reclaim a party. Because only then, I know that's what you want too, Ben. We need to have a healthy Republican Party, a healthy Democratic Party, and then the two of them can have this fight, you know, a fair fight for democracy and the marketplace of ideas. We don't have that right now. We've got a criminal who's running the White House and a party on the other side and Republicans who are moderate struggling to restrain him.

1:29:50Michael Popok:And this is where we get together. It's almost like a religion. This is where we get together on a weekly basis, hourly basis to renew ourselves for the fight ahead. And that's what I think Legal AF does.

1:30:04Ben Meiselas:stay in this together fight together we're in this together michael popock thanks for all you do legal a efforts thanks for all of you do a reminder make sure you all uh check out the legal af youtube channel and subscribe let's get that channel two million subscribers also check out legal af on substack let's keep growing the legal af substack also if you or someone you know has been injured in an auto accident a trucking accident if you've been injured by the negligence of a company or another person, reach out to 877-POPOC-AF or go to thepopocfirm.com. The consultation is free. They've got lawyers and staff across the countries to answer your questions.

1:30:45Ben Meiselas:And if you know someone who's been the victim of negligence of others, wrongful death or sexual assault or harassment, whatever, reach out to the firm. Refer their families. Refer them over to POPOC. You know POPOC. You trust him. Let him take a look at it and see if there's a case there. Thanks, everybody, for watching. We appreciate you. Stay in the fight. We're going to keep staying in the fight. We're not intimidated at all. We're going to keep on growing. Hit subscribe on our channel. Help Midas get to 6 million subscribers. And we'll see you next time on Legal AF. Shout out Legal AFers. Shout out Midas Mighty.

1:31:46Ben Meiselas:We'll see you next time. Beef Wellington recipe card and leave the laundry to us. Rinse. It's time to be great.