Legal AF Full Episode - 12/17/2025

26:38Michael Popok:Our investigation also developed powerful evidence that showed President Trump willfully retained, highly classified documents after he left office in January of 2021, storing them at his social club, Mar-a-Lago, including in a bathroom and a ballroom where events and gatherings took place. Exploiting that violence, talking about Jan 6th, President Trump and his associates tried to call members of Congress in furtherance of their criminal scheme. This was to address the MAGA House's position. Oh, my Lord, he got a copy of our telephone bills. He knows who we talked to on Jan 6 and Jan 7 or Jan 5 through Jan 7.

27:19Michael Popok:Oh, I feel violated. I don't know why I do foghorn leghorn from Warner Brothers cartoons whenever I do a MAGA congresspeople. And the response to that was, I didn't pick who the phone calls were going to be to. Donald Trump did. Or as Jack Smith put it, that President Trump tried to call members of Congress in furtherance of their criminal scheme, urging them to further delay certification of the 2020 election. I didn't choose those members. President Trump did. And he also said, if asked whether to prosecute a former president based on the same facts today, I would do so regardless of whether the president was a Republican or a Democrat.

28:00Michael Popok:And then he talked about the decision that he made. People have all come forward to defend him, although Jack Smith doesn't need defending. John Dowd, who's been opposed to him in cases when Jack Smith was a prosecutor, represented Donald Trump at one point, said that there's no finer, more ethical prosecutor that he's aware of than Jack Smith. And all Jack Smith wants to do is talk to the American people. And you saw him, we saw him in the clips. Jamie Raskin, Representative Jamie Raskin, who's a friend of the podcast, I just had the honor of introducing him at a rally slash fundraiser for Eileen Higgins, who won the mayoral race in the city of Miami.

28:38Michael Popok:He flew in from Washington for it. He came out almost jocular. You know, he's on, he's the ranking Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee, constitutional scholar and professor in his own right. And Jamie Raskin came out almost giddy about what he heard in there and then took time to troll the GOP, the Republicans, and saying, now I know why you didn't want to have Jack Smith tell his story to the American people in public. Dot, dot, dot. I'm going to do it when I bring him in for a shadow hearing. Let's play the clip of Jamie Raskin today. I just want to say that Chairman Jordan made an excellent decision in not allowing Jack Smith to testify publicly, because had he done so, it would have been absolutely devastating to the president and all the president's men involved in the insurrectionary activities of January the 6th.

29:29So, you know, I can't get into any further particulars, but I'll just say that Jack Smith has just spent several hours schooling the Judiciary Committee on the professional responsibilities of a prosecutor and the ethical duties of a prosecutor. And he's a sensational and honorable public servant. And we are lucky to have him in the bar in the United States of America. Can you describe at least what his message was generally to the community? Again, he's been asked and he's answering questions. So he didn't come with any particular message. But I'll just say that he's answered every single question to the satisfaction of any reasonable minded person in that room.

30:25Well, his report speaks for itself in terms of January the 6th and the indictments that were handed down. And the other report should be public. I mean, that's just absolutely aberrational that it's not public. Just like his testimony should be public. Every other special counsel has been able to come here and testify. Robert Mueller's been able to testify. Robert Mueller's been able to testify. all the special counsels and independent counsels have come in. And his second report on the retention of classified documents and what crimes may have been committed should also be released.

31:03Michael Popok:I think I'm wearing the Jamie Raskin collection today with my loose tie. And to remind people, volume two, which is the second volume of Jack Smith's report, a couple hundred pages, which was delivered to Merrick Garland, is now stuck in Aileen Cannon's chambers and motion practice there about getting it released to the American people. Pam Bondi has buried volume two, just like she buried the Epstein files. It should have already been released to the American people. But of course, she's under orders by her boss, Donald Trump, not to do that. That's what Jamie Raskin was referring to there at the end.

31:41Michael Popok:Dina, why don't we take a few questions? um i'll why don't i give you the first one okay ready okay here we go let me go through my questions here uh yeah that's true okay we'll go to the epstein files that'll help segue us when we come back from a break about delane maxwell from jj hastings where the epstein files release deadline imminent what legal risks including potential court challenges or claims of noncompliance arise from reported internal disputes than the FBI and DOJ leadership? And how might a high profile resignation like Bongino's intersect with those risks? That's pretty good. So Dan Bongino, deputy director of the FBI, resigned.

32:25Michael Popok:No surprise. He's hated that job from day one. So why don't you take it? Epstein file release imminent. What if they don't get released? what what what happens what about this fbi doj a firefight is that going to somehow impact and back up on the now congressional law that the fc files must be released well that's that's the key word that this is now a law it's not a letter it's not a statement that they have to comply with we have been concerned that the doj is going to point to the fact that they have an active investigation and withhold it in that respect so you could have a situation where because there is a carve out in that law for being able to redact it for certain investigations.

33:08It's hard for her to have said that there's a new investigation when she already said a few months ago that there was nothing there for an investigation. So it might go. So let's say that happens, right? I know there's so many different scenarios. So in some ways, it's a little bit hard to answer the question, but that very specific scenario, if that were to happen, you would have like a fight in court, basically, of whether or not there was an active investigation and whether or not they blocked the release of appropriate amount of documents. It's interesting that we have not telegraphed anything, and we are two days away at this point.

33:43So that's interesting. That was an interesting question about Dan Mangione, because are they trying to make him the fall guy? Probably not, but that timing is interesting about that.

33:56Michael Popok:Absolutely. And let me take one, and then we'll take a break. This is from Dorothy Bernardo. Where are all the people who were held in the detention center in the Florida Everglades, which they like to call the alligator Alcatraz? Also, what's the status of the men in prison in El Salvador? And how will Nome be held accountable for ordering the planes to El Salvador after the court ordered them back? All right, let me see what I can do. This is going to be like a speed round. uh unfortunately and i'm in florida the alligator alcatraz is still operational uh it's supposed to have been wound down because of violation of environmental policy the seminal tribe is very upset about alligator alcatraz operating in their historic lands if you will, ancestral lands.

34:47Michael Popok:And so they're working hard to try to shut that down as well. I said the Seminoles, I think it's the Miccosukeys, another Indian Native American group here in Florida. What's the status of the men imprisoned in El Salvador? They were all traded already. Well, if you're talking about the 250 Venezuelans who were sent to El Salvador, including Brigo Garcia, we know Brigo Garcia is back in the United States being held under supervision of Judge Zinnis in Maryland, the other 250 that were the subject of Chief Judge Boasberg's grounding order in March were already traded by the Trump administration back to Venezuela in a prisoner exchange.

35:34Michael Popok:So they're not even in El Salvador any longer. The ACLU continues to represent them, but they're doing it by, they're now in Venezuela. I thought Venezuela, we were at war with Venezuela? Why are we sending enemy combatants back to Venezuela in exchange for who knows what? But that's happened. They are not in Seacott. There are other bad people in Seacott and other people that shouldn't be in Seacott and Seacott in El Salvador, but not those 250. And how will Nome be held accountable for ordering the planes? I mean, right now we've got a two to one Trumper led panel in the District of Columbia that's blocking Judge Bozberg's continued contempt proceedings for criminal contempt and against Christy Noem for allowing those planes to fly when the judge ordered them not to.

36:20Michael Popok:But that same or similar composition of that panel has been overturned before by the full 20 or so judges of what we call the en banc panel of the circuit court. So, I mean, we'll have to see. Right now, he's being blocked. I assume the ACLU is going to go for an en banc panel. We're going to get the ACLU. I think I might have mentioned that the ACLU is now going to be regular contributors on Legal AF with their own playlist, sometimes in interviews with me or other contributors like Dina talking about their cases, the lawyers that are in the courtrooms. I just did Lee Colert, who is the head of the immigration unit for the ACLU, who's involved in this case.

36:57Michael Popok:I interviewed him about a week or a week or so ago, but great question. Really glad you're doing that. If you like this type of back and forth and interactivity where we take your questions and answer them. Put it down in comments. My team will take a look, and maybe we'll throw up a poll when we have a moment to see if people want us to do it. And we'll do a lot more of it because Dean and I enjoy it, Karen and I enjoy it, all that good stuff. Many ways to support the Legal AF universe. You can help us with the podcast, which is regularly on audio in the top 75, 50, whatever it is. go over to Apple and Spotify, all the places you get your podcast, probably the five-star review and comments.

37:40Michael Popok:We read those comments like we do tonight. Watch the show on YouTube, send, tell your friends about them, bring them here. That's what put us in the top 50 or so of the top 100 podcasts on YouTube. It's that kind of audience support. And then we've got the Legal AF YouTube channel, which I talked about at the top of the show. and we've been flashing that 1 million that Salty, our editor, created last September or October for a lot. I've been staring at that million incentive for a long time, but we're at about 990, could be 991 ,000 tonight. If we can get another handful tonight from this audience, and we're going to have a couple hundred thousand people going to watch and listen to this show tonight, if we could just get 2%, 3 % of that group to go over and go down below and hit the subscribe button.

38:33Michael Popok:Come over to Legal AF YouTube channel. Hit the subscribe button. We'd be done. I only half joke, Dina, that with our 400 million views since last year overall for all the videos, if we just got 1%, we'd be on the Midas Touch's heels. You know, it's hard to get, I don't know why it's hard to get the conversion into subscriber thing. It's really just a button and it's a way to vote. It's early voting. You like independent journalism. you like independent commentary, you like these kind of shows, this is what, this is all you got to do. And it is free. And then of course, the other way is to support our Legal AF sub stack.

39:09Michael Popok:Data Doll contributes there as well. Got a sub stack there for people. We've got some amazing content, even for our paid subscribers, which is about six or$7 a month. And then we've got these fantastic sponsors, some of which have been with, pardon me, with Legal AF, like for four and a half to five years or more recent. And, uh, and it keeps it's on the air. I got an editor or two with us right now. I got a team that's looking at the chat. You know, we got to pay the bills. We don't just have all volunteers and people keeps the lights on and that's the way to support it. So I'm really proud to have our first set of sponsors and here they are.

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42:55Michael Popok:You know, while I was listening to our ads, we started the show with the depravity of Donald Trump and attacking the Reiner mourning family and the rest of America. And then I got to read about this walkway of presidential photos and presidential portraits that Donald Trump not only put up, you know, all of them, but now has put brass plaques underneath with his personal vendetta under each president like Barack Obama and Joe Biden. It's another example of wasteful taxpayer dollars, because when the next president comes in, who's going to be a Democrat, we have to spend all of this money to rip down all of this sophomoric middle school bullshit, change back the names of the Peace Institute, change the, you know, if he tries to change the name of the Reagan International Airport, you know, if he puts his name on this or that, we're just going to have to F and change it back.

44:01So here's what he wrote under these descriptions

44:07Michael Popok:for Barack. Here's what he wrote for Barack Obama. Ready? This is in the White House. Oh, gosh. Barack Hussein Obama was the first black president, a community organizer, a one term senator from Illinois, and one of the most divisive political figures in American history. Wow. He talks about the highly ineffective unaffordable care act and the one sided Paris Accords. OK. In for Bill Clinton. He also put in the plaque about Bill Clinton. He points out Hillary Clinton's 26 loss, 2016 loss to Trump in 2016. President Clinton's wife, Hillary, lost the presidency to President Donald J. Trump with an exclamation mark about Joe Biden.

44:53Michael Popok:he wrote sleepy joe this is on a brass black wow sleepy joe biden was by far the worst president in american history taking office as a result of the most corrupt election ever seen in the united states biden oversaw a series of unprecedented disasters that brought our nation to the brink of destruction but despite it all president trump would get re-elected in a landslide and Save America about Joe Biden. Oh, my gosh. I mean, when, I'm sorry, who voted for this? And when is this person's time up? Yes. And get him out, tear down the ballroom that he'll never live to use. Guy doesn't like dinners.

45:36Michael Popok:Melania abdicated her responsibilities as a first lady. Ivanka hasn't been seen at the White House. Who's going to host these state dinners in this ridiculous ballroom? Anyway, I felt like we had to talk about that. No, I mean, that's stunning. I mean, it's like satire, but it's not. He's the biggest sore loser there is. Like, you won the election. He's still so petty and so upset about Obama will always be more popular than him and that he did lose to Joe Biden. And he's just a sore loser. And like I said, it would be not that bad if that didn't permeate into every little thing. I mean, I don't want to take too much away, but I kind of think that's why he's letting the health care subsidies expire, because Obama's name is on it.

46:23And he's going to want to come up with his own version that's not going to be as good for the American people and put Trump care on it. I mean, I think it's as simple as that. Like, he's just a very bad, but yet simple person. And about that ballroom, I think whatever is built, if it's built, hopefully that lawsuit can actually stop it from being built, which should be torn down. And the East Wing should be built exactly how it used to be. Yeah.

46:45Michael Popok:Yeah. I mean, Judge Leon is not going to stop the construction as of yet, but the vertical construction of the ballroom hasn't happened yet. It won't happen until April or so. He's going to revisit the issue. And if it doesn't get approved and it doesn't go through the appropriate plans and planning approvals and doesn't get approved by Congress or something else gets approved and he builds this monstrosity anyway, I think we're going to look at a teardown order or a red tag by Judge Leon. Let's talk about, let's switch gears and talk about the Federal Communications Commission and Brendan Carr.

47:21Michael Popok:Brendan Carr was a low-level staffer for the Federal Communications Commission 20 years ago, rose to the level of general counsel. Then he got on the commission in the first Trump term. And then he tried out for, was auditioning for, to be the chairperson in Trump II. And he did it by writing an entire chapter about the role of the Federal Communications Commission in, wait for it, put it in comments, Project 2025. The thing that Donald Trump said, he didn't know what it was, except half of his administration is tied to it. You know, Russ Vogt, Office of Management and Budget, and here, Brendan Carr.

48:00Michael Popok:And so Brandon Carr's position on how to wield power as the FCC chairperson came under fire today. And this is his first appearance in an oversight committee hearing after he infamously went after Jimmy Kimmel, like a mafioso. So, you know, you like that, you know, an ABC, you like that license? It'd be terrible if something happened to it, you know, kind of threats. And also got wrapped around his axle today, trying to remember whether the FCC was an independent agency or not, which it is. is. They had to scrub the website while he was testifying because, you know, he's so wrapped up because the Trump administration's position is that Donald Trump can fire all of these agencies and, you know, the Securities and Exchange Commission, Federal Trade Commission, Federal Communications Commission.

48:54Michael Popok:And I'm not so sure about that when it comes to the FCC. But he, you know, he was doing the bidding, you know, he'd been prepped, obviously, within an inch of his life. And here's how it played out, each one worse for him and the administration than the next. Let's lead off with Senator Amy Klobuchar. Chairman Carr, in 2022, you tweeted, political satire is one of the oldest and most important forms of free speech. It challenges those in power while using humor to draw more people into the discussion. That's why people in influential positions have always targeted it for censorship. Yes or no, do you still agree that political satire should be protected speech?

49:38Yes, Senator. And whenever that satire or any other programming is over the public airways for broadcasters, there's a public interest standard and there's a news distortion rule, a broadcast hoax rule. You answered it. You answered it. Yes. And I'm just opportunity rule. I'm going to go on. That particular instance, too, had to do with speech on social media where Biden administrations were trying to shut down political speech. Again, an area where there is no license, there's no public interest standard. We'll get to that in a minute. You know, I believe too that there is no place in chilling political satire.

50:09But after Jimmy Kimmel's monologue, you went on a podcast and suggested that ABC should take Kimmel off the air saying we can do this the easy way or the hard way. Those were your words. Do you think it is appropriate to use your position to threaten companies that broadcast political satire. I think any licensee that operates on the public airwaves has a responsibility to comply with the public interest standard, and that's been the case for decades. I asked if you think it's appropriate for you to use your position to threaten companies. And this incident with Kimmel wasn't an isolated event.

50:46You've launched investigations into every major broadcast network except Fox. Is that correct? I don't know if that's true or not. We do have investigations going on NPR and PBS. We have a number of investigations that are ongoing. I think if you step back over the years, I think the FCC has walked away from enforcing the public interest standard, and I don't think that's a good thing.

51:10Michael Popok:And he's a liar because here is Brendan Carr attacking and threatening Jimmy Kimmel and ABC with a right-wing podcaster. First of all, why is Brendan Carr, a member of the administration, on a right-wing podcaster giving his opinions? I mean, look, we had J.D. Vance and Stephen Miller do a right wing podcast from the White House. But let's play the clip of Carr threatening Kimmel that he now denies in response to Senator Klobuchar's questions. But frankly, when you see stuff like this, I mean, look, we can do this the easy way or the hard way. These companies can find ways to change conduct to take action, frankly, on Kimmel.

51:57Or, you know, there's going to be additional work for the FCC. Again, there's actions that we can take on licensed broadcasters. And frankly, I think that it's really sort of past time that a lot of these licensed broadcasters themselves push back on Comcast and Disney and say, listen, we are going to preempt. We are not going to run Kimmel anymore until you straighten this out. Because we, we licensed broadcaster, are running the possibility of fines or license revocation from the FCC if we continue to run content that ends up being a pattern of news distortion.

52:30Michael Popok:So the commentary by Jimmy Kimmel after the death of Charlie Kirk is news distortion. So you see he's a he's a liar. And a guy went downhill from there. And then he got tongue tied about whether the FCC, which reflects on its own website until he started giving his testimony now been scrubbed. They are an independent regulatory body that serves the public interest. Watch this Q &A with a senator and Mr. Carr, Commissioner Carr, about whether his organization, his entity is independent or not. Chairman Carr, yes or no, and please yes or no, is the FCC an independent agency? Senator, thanks for that question.

53:13Yes or no is all we need, sir. Yes or no, is it independent? Well, there's a test for this in the law, in the key portion of that test. Yes or no, Brendan? The key portion of that test is... Okay, I'm going to go to Commissioner Trustee. So just so you know, Brendan, on your website, it just simply says, man, the FCC is independent. This isn't a trick question. Okay, the FCC is not... Yes or no? Is not. Okay. Is not independent. So is your website wrong? Is your website lying? Possibly. The FCC is not an independent agency. Okay, can I read this to you? The FCC's mission on the homepage of the FCC, man, an independent U.S.

53:45government agency overseen by Congress. Is that factual or is that a lie? The FC is not formally an independent agency. Is this true or is this a lie? I'm happy to answer your question. Chairman, I have a little bit of a time. I'll get back to you. The FC is not an independent agency, formally speaking. Appreciate you saying that and being honest with the American people. Commissioner Trustee? Thank you for the question. The president is the chief executive bested with all executive power in our government, and FCC commissioners are not. We do not have four-cause removal protections, which means that we aren't independent.

54:15So is your website line? I can't speak to the website. I've not seen that. You all are the commissioners in charge of this place, right? So this stuff has to be approved by one of you. If this is lying, then you should just fix it. Let me just say that. That wasn't even my gotcha question. I'm surprised that I burned up three minutes talking about this damn thing. Commissioner Gomez?

54:33Michael Popok:Yes, and we should be. I appreciate that. Well, Mr. Chairman, if I could just submit the printout of the homepage of the FCC into the record, Matt, and it says it's an independent agency, and if it's not true, then change it? Without objection. And they went and changed it during that or just following that testimony. This is all today, by the way. Now let's go to Senator Markey. ...decision about what stories to cover and how to frame them should be beyond the reach of any government official not targeted by them, by government officials. Do you stand by that statement? This was a letter written by Senate House Democrats to cable companies, pressuring them to drop Fox News, OAN and Newsmax simply because those Democrats thought they were right wing.

55:25Michael Popok:Do you stand by your statement? Yes, I do. I think it's inappropriate what the Democrats did there. I just want to get your own views out here on the record for people to hear. So in February, under your leadership, the Federal Communications Commission opened an investigation into a San Francisco radio station over its coverage of a federal immigration raid. FCC investigation is a big deal for a local station. In a worst case scenario, the FCC could shut down the station by revoking its license. In fact, you have repeatedly suggested over the past year that the FCC could revoke station licenses.

56:02Michael Popok:Yet this investigation was based solely on the news content of the radio station's coverage of an immigration raid. I have the entire news statement that they put out that day. This happens every day, everywhere across the country for broadcast journalists. This investigation was based solely on this very brief statement that is an everyday coverage. And I have that transcript. And the anchor was literally reporting on the information that was released by the mayor, by the local city council member and a community group. So you're telling me that reporting on statements from public officials and a community group is grounds for an FCC investigation?

56:48So the concern there in the report was that there may have been interference with lawful ICE operations. And so we were asking questions about what happened. This is a period of time, remember, when ICE agents were being attacked, their locations, undercover locations were being disclosed.

57:04Michael Popok:There is nothing in here that discloses anything. There's no risk to anyone except the risk. And they can provide that to us. No, no. The risk that it's posed here is to you, to the broadcast journalist coverage. That's what really happened. The news journalists were just covering an important news story. And some conservatives were upset by the coverage. So you use your power as FCC chair to hang a sword of Damocles over a local radio station's head. And that's precisely what you warned about in 2022, the government targeting a newsroom's editorial decision. Well, guess what happened? The station demoted the anchor who first read that news report over the air and pulled back on his political coverage.

57:48Michael Popok:You got what you wanted. One former journalist at the station said chilling effect does not begin to describe the neutering of our. And there was Senator Markey. So, Dina, what did you make of now that we put all the receipts on the table? What did you make of Brendan Carr's performance today? And there's now calls, especially by the Democrats, to have him removed as the FCC chair. What did you make of it? I mean, he should be removed. It's an obvious abuse of power, both what he said about Jimmy Kimmel and then the story that Senator Mark Lee talked about with the investigation basically shutting down local news.

58:28I mean, here's the thing. There is not a question that it is an independent agency under the current law. It is true that Trump just, you know, you and I on unprecedented just talked about the Supreme Court hearing last week, or they are trying to change that. That may happen. But as of today, it is clearly an independent agency. And maybe the theme is their incompetence in their websites here. They're trying to do illegal things so quickly they can't even catch up with their website. But the Congress created the FCC and created an act specifically. He talks about public interest standard a lot.

59:04And I just want to mention that really quickly because this is, so when Congress established it, the Communications Act of 1934. They said that the FCC would regulate, approve licenses, approve mergers, all to make sure that our airwaves are in the public interest. And that public interest standard is not defined in that act. But for the entire time, it has been made to be, it's been interpreted as making sure that people have access to airwaves, that there's competition in the airwaves, never anything like this where a certain viewpoint is put out on the airwaves and we're going to come in and use our power to take that down, really to limit free speech, which is what Brendan Carr is trying to do.

59:54But you see what Project 2025, MAGA, and all of them are trying to use that public interest standard, which is just a matter of making sure we all really have fair access to our airwaves. And of course, they're trying to interpret it as saying, really, the public interest is just hearing our viewpoint. Yeah.

1:00:14Michael Popok:And then pass a anti-distortion law. Distorting how? I mean, Amy Klobuchar had the most devastating cross-examination that was buried in her question, which was, you've started dozens of investigations against media outlets, except Fox. And then he admitted he goes yeah we're going after pbs and npr oh my god pbs i know and are we going after big bird again i mean what is going on here again here's my new tagline who voted for this but but you voted for us and to be together with us here on a on a pre-holiday and it shows why you know you've been talking a lot about almost getting two million for your legal af but it shows why it's so important because you know we do have a few years left for trump and the supreme Court hasn't come and saved us that many times.

1:01:03And they may shut down a lot of what we need to hear on our public airwaves. And it does make this new media so, so incredibly critical right now.

1:01:14Michael Popok:And thanks to our audience, because I did check and we rolled the odometer one more time while we're here. I feel like the old Jerry Lewis telethon. We're up to 991 ,000 during the show. And I made it easy. I had them adjust the notes while we've been on the air. Go down to the notes. There should be a link there. Take your right to the Legal AF YouTube channel. If not, you'll have to bounce out to the Legal AF YouTube channel and then come back and hit the subscribe button there. But either way, that's the way to help support what we do. We love you being a part of the Legal AF community. Some of you have been here for all the more than five years since Ben and I founded it.

1:01:49Michael Popok:Oh, so long ago. And have helped us stay at the top, top, top, tippy top of the charts. That's all because of you. And we appreciate each and every one of you. And we're just humbled by the success that we've had on the Midas Touch Network and on Legal AF in particular. And then, of course, the other way to support us is we talked about the Legal AF YouTube channel. Legal AF Substack, become a part of that community. That's a vibrant community with over 120, 130 ,000 people on it already. And paid membership gets you access to all sorts of interesting nuggets in the law and politics intersection.

1:02:22Michael Popok:And then we've got our sponsors. And now is the holidays. And so our sponsors are all geared up to help you with your holiday purchases. These are items and products that have been screened and cultivated, curated by the brothers, Jordy in particular. Then the podcasters use them and we like them. And then, you know, we're not trying to put our hand in your pocket. But if you have some disposable income and you think these things are interesting, we did, then support them. They support us. it is one of the levers that keeps our independent commentary and journalism and honest reporting on the air and so you know uh so that the FCC does decide one day why don't we regulate YouTube yeah and YouTube by Google you know anyway we'll leave it we'll leave it at that let's go to a word from our sponsors when it comes to dog food it seems like you have to make a choice you can either have, well, fresh and healthy, or you can have easy to store and serve, but never both.

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1:06:08Michael Popok:During the Black Friday Cyber Monday signature sale, you'll save up to 40%. Get$75 in free gifts and free shipping at LaundrySauce.com. and laundry sauce said even though we said cyber monday and black friday it still applies those that are wondering is that an old dad no i just did it recently um all right let's move on to our last couple of topics today hannah dugan judge dugan and maxwell you want to take judge dugan and what's going on sure sure prosecutors having rested today yeah so so i think people kind of remember you set it up in the beginning. The actions she took around the person who was in the courtroom in front of her during her hearing, whether or not it was criminal.

1:06:54The prosecutor is trying to say that she told the ICE agent to leave out of a side door, and she did that in order to evade the ICE basically detaining him, and this was an obstruction. You know, here's for me the crux of this and why this is so important and why we're paying attention to it is because the action she took, she took while she was on the bench in the middle of her day, let's say. She was in an official capacity. Her action was in official capacity. And yes, I'm using those words specifically because the idea is that judges have immunity for, they have civil immunity for their official actions.

1:07:36Prior to the Trump decision, the Trump immunity decision, the president had civil immunity for their official conduct. There was a similarity there. There is a lot of deference to judges when they are in their official capacity. The judge is the king of their courtroom, and she has quite a bit of say of how to manage her courtroom. And that is really what her defense is arguing is that she didn't try she wasn't intentionally trying to help him evade you know um capture that this was her managing her courtroom and as such she has deference this is an official capacity i think this is interesting if she does get a conviction here does she take this to the supreme court and does she argue that this is a co-equal branch of government and that judges should have criminal immunity when they are acting in their official capacity just as the president.

1:08:36Michael Popok:Yeah, I mean, right now, you know, there was about a dozen witnesses that testified on behalf of the prosecution, including a chief judge and a number of other judges. There was some testimony also by a court reporter who worked often with the judge. And the question is whether she diverted a defendant and a lawyer to a separate stairway in order for them to evade ICE that was in the hallway ready to make an arrest. Yes or no? And there's conflicting testimony about whether she did or didn't do that, or whether she was directing the people to go out into the public hallway and not try to get them into the staircase.

1:09:15Michael Popok:And there was enough conflicting testimony about that particular issue that I think that should have created reasonable doubt, certainly one that the defense team will harp on when the case turns to them and they start either recalling some of these witnesses or new witnesses. I don't know if Judge Dugan is going to take the stand. It'd be quite a spectacle that have a sitting, she's suspended with pay, or she's on leave with pay from her court position. But her position, as we've heard before from her lawyers, is that, like you said, She is the guardian of her courtroom. She did not want her courtroom to be the scene of federal ICE warrant, not even judge-issued warrants, administrative warrants, to be used to pick up people because she didn't want criminal defendants to go underground.

1:10:09Michael Popok:But, you know, this guy was indicted for strangling his girlfriend or the woman in his life. And, you know, if the message gets out, don't go to court, you know, hide because you're going to go, you're going to get deported on top of it. That's not good for the criminal justice system in Milwaukee. And so there's that whole battle going on. And why can't you pick him up outside? They eventually arrested him. I mean, just wait out if you knew he was, if ICE knew, which they did, this guy was going to be in a hearing eight o 'clock in the morning in front of Judge Dugan. let him go in, go through a metal detector.

1:10:43Michael Popok:So now you know he doesn't have any weapons and we'll let him walk out with his lawyer arm in arm and then arrest him outside. And that's the point. Why does it have to be done with a spectacle in the hallway or in a courtroom while everything else is going on and exploiting those resources? And I think there's gonna be a lot of that in the defense as well when they start cross-examining the ICE agents, which hasn't happened yet. That'll really happen in earnest. when the case now turns tomorrow to the defense. And will the judge take the stand? I'm not sure. Normally I would say no, because she doesn't have an obligation to, but she might.

1:11:22She might. I mean, I think she has a really strong argument. Judges have very strong interest to have managed their courtroom as they want. You know, we don't have a free speech right to go in there and just scream and say whatever we want. I mean, you and I have been in courtrooms plenty of times And they govern it like an iron fist. And there is precedent for the idea of a judge creating rules in her courtroom or decorum of what's allowed and not allowed. And here they were going to create a spectacle and interfere with her case management, whether or not it was that case or the case after. I mean, I don't know how many cases she had, but I know a judge who has like 3 ,000 cases to manage, right?

1:12:02There is this idea that we give deference to judges or other officials to do their jobs. And so I think that's a strong defense on her part. But I'm definitely keeping an eye on it because if she is convicted, I think that she should argue to the Supreme Court that she deserves the same type of immunity as the president.

1:12:23Michael Popok:Yeah, agreed. Adam Klassfeld, who's with us on, on, with All Rise News on Legal AF. I think he and I are going to do a live report because he's in Milwaukee in the courtroom. He's been doing some great social media posting about it, but I'm going to get him on the air. We were going to do it early tomorrow morning before he steps into the courtroom, but I wanted it. I really wanted him to get another, a first day of the defense and then get the flavor of that and then report to our audience. So tomorrow we'll probably get it up. it'll be end of his day so we'll get it up on Friday for people to understand what's happening in that in the Dugan case and let's now turn finally to Ghislaine Maxwell I'll set it I'll tee it up and I'll turn it over to you Dino we got convicted child sex trafficker and friend of Donald Trump Ghislaine Maxwell who's been lobbying for a pardon ever since she got sentenced to 20 years in jail for five count felony conviction, 12-0, in front of a federal jury in New York and sentenced by Judge Nathan because she committed a crime of depravity, of immorality, illegality, and participated in the rape of girls.

1:13:34Michael Popok:I mean, I don't know the way to sugarcoat this. This is what she did. I know, if I didn't know what she did, I would know what she did last week when Judge Engelmeyer, who supervises her case in New York, wrote almost exactly that in his decision to release the grand jury transcripts based on the Epstein law that just got passed, because he wanted to remind the world of what a heinous criminal she is that's been lobbying to get out of jail. Now, we knew that she was going to, we suspected she had gotten fired by her lawyer, that her lawyer fired her, and David Oscar Marcus, who was all puffed up when he thought, you know, he could get her a pardon or get her clemency.

1:14:19Michael Popok:And I think the air came out of the balloon when he figured out that she probably didn't tell the truth to the Department of Justice. And in her interview, when she was vouching for Donald Trump's character as a child sex trafficker. And then when subsequent emails and other thousands of pages of documents came out of the Epstein estate, including her emails that put a lie to most of her testimony, I think David Oscar Marcus was like, I'm out. So she filed today a jailhouse version because she did it herself or with help inside the jail without a lawyer, a writ of habeas corpus. And that is to argue, finally, last gasp, that she has some sort of right Even though she's been denied, she lost her appeal.

1:15:09Michael Popok:She lost her appeal to the United States Supreme Court. She never, and let me just make this clear, she had competent counsel all along the way. She didn't represent herself in the trials. And in those cases, when they were done, she filed an appeal. She did not argue that there was juror misconduct. She did not argue that there was judge misconduct. She did not argue that a witness went on that shouldn't have went on, or a witness didn't go on that should have gone on or vice versa, or that evidence came in that shouldn't have or evidence didn't come in. She made no arguments about her trial.

1:15:45Michael Popok:And you're entitled to a fair trial in America under the Sixth Amendment. You are not entitled, nor has there ever been such a thing as a perfect trial. But you have to have what's called reversible error, things that the judge has done wrong that would lead to the reversal of your conviction. She never argued any of that at the Second Circuit Court of Appeals in New York. And she never argued that at the United States Supreme Court. She argued not that she wasn't guilty. She argued that she was the beneficiary of a non-prosecution agreement that was entered into between Jeffrey Epstein and his lawyer, Alan Dershowitz, the Harvard law professor who handled his case, and the then U.S.

1:16:25Michael Popok:attorney for Miami, Alex Acosta. and that even though she didn't sign that agreement, she wasn't mentioned in that agreement, she says, oh, it says Epstein and maybe others. No. And so she only argued that she had an immunity, almost like Trump argument, a non-prosecution agreement. Well, Second Circuit didn't buy it and neither did the United States Supreme Court. So now she's left with writing these writs of habeas corpus. By the way, I think she filed it in the wrong court. I think she has to file it in Texas, where she is, not in New York. It was Judge Engelmeyer who handled her case. I don't know if you had a chance to see this ramblings of a mad woman.

1:17:05Michael Popok:Did you see her writ? Yeah, why don't you tell your audience what you made of it? Yeah, so this is, you really teed it up, but this is post-conviction. Technically, a criminal conviction at the trial court level, whether or not by jury or judge, isn't considered final until they have exhausted all their appeals. She did that, as you said, when the U.S. Supreme Court declined to reverse it. So this is considered a post-conviction. It is that last gasp. The standard is so incredibly high to get your conviction overturned at this point. It's like, is there a manifest miscarriage of justice? Extremely high.

1:17:42The irony, I did take a look at it, the one thing that you always argue in a habeas corpus petition is ineffective assistance of counsel. because your argument is my lawyer didn't appeal the fact that they allowed in a witness to lie and he never objected or whatever. All those things that maybe you didn't get a chance to appeal or you didn't think of appealing, you're going to argue in your habeas corpus, but you have to say you had ineffective assistance counsel. You have to say that your lawyer was so bad. They didn't even appeal these issues with my conviction. Not only were they about a trial, but then I wasn't able to get my proper appeal.

1:18:24And so this is a miscarriage of justice so extreme that we need to step in. So she fails to bring in the most important, crucial point of it is that there is ineffective assistance of counsel. These kind of petitions are Hail Marys no matter what. Here she had a really well-known lawyer, month-long trial, jury conviction. She didn't argue appeal of the evidence because the evidence was extremely strong. We're seeing it, as you said, with the jury testimony. I mean, I've read about it with Virginia Dufresne's book. I mean, she was a co-conspirator in every sense of the world and really disgusting what she herself did, not just Epstein.

1:19:06So it's a long shot to begin with. It's an extra long shot because she failed to even argue ineffective assistance of counsel. And she did have a fair trial at the end of the day. So whether or not this is a matter of, I guess, her just doing her last Hail Mary, her trying to gain Trump's attention for a pardon, you know, we'll see. But I think we can be very confident that she will get this denied.

1:19:29Michael Popok:Oh, yeah. I think Judge Engelmeyer will deny it. My only my only I'll leave it on this. My only fear is that it'll be an opening for the Department of Justice run by Donald Trump to somehow help her with her petition and not oppose it. Or, you know, are we watching a, you know, kabuki theater choreographed orchestrated? I don't think so. But I don't know. And, you know, you know, you just hear Donald Trump up at a podium, although, you know, I don't want to ever hear him do this, but you could just hear him say, well, you know, there's good people on both sides of a child sex trafficking ring.

1:20:09Michael Popok:And she's a victim, too, I guess. And there is a writ of habeas corpus that's, you know, I've been told may have some merit. So I'm going to, you know, I'm going to let her out. Look at all the people he's let out. You know, every financial fraudster he can get his hands on, he lets out of jail. You know, the ex-Hondorian president that's responsible for the most major cocaine, drug trafficking in America, serving 45 years in jail, just walked out of prison. So does anybody shock us that Donald Trump, after we just read all those plaques he just wrote about presidents, would take the political heat and let her out of jail?

1:20:48Michael Popok:I mean, we'll have to see. But anyway, the question is, will it benefit him? I mean, he's a simple person at the end of the day is very simple. Will it benefit him or not? And that we don't know because we don't know what she knows that we don't know. But if if he thinks it's going to benefit her, he'll do it. And as you said, and this could tee him up to saying, oh, it's an advocate, you know, an activist judge who dismissed her appeal or whatever. He doesn't need an excuse. He does what he wants to do. So, but for the sake of the victims, let's hope this gets denied and she stays in jail and frankly gets back up to the level of the jail system that she should be in.

1:21:22Michael Popok:Absolutely. We're glad you're all here. We've reached the end of Legal AF. Dina Dahl with me today on our midweek edition Saturday. It'll be Ben Micellis and me. We do hot takes at the intersection of law and politics about every hour, either on the Midas Touch Network or where, wait for it, Legal AF, the YouTube channel. We picked up another thousand while we were on the air, which is fantastic. I think this group alone will put us over the threshold and we can pop the cork on one million subscribers before Christmas kicks in. And we'd all be thrilled if that were to happen. Legal AF Substack, the other way, of course, to support what we do.

1:22:03Michael Popok:It's another kind of group. And it's where I can also do live reporting that I can't do on Legal AF YouTube channel. If something comes up right after I did a video, boom, there's a development. I get everybody together in a live, and we do everything there. So if you don't know about Substack or you don't know about Legal AF Substack, please come over there. Otherwise, everybody get either in their holidays, day four of Hanukkah, and our hearts and prayers go out to the Bondi Beach massacre victims, and, of course, to what happened in Brown University with the students and the student body there in the middle of a holy week for many people in America and otherwise.

1:22:42Michael Popok:But we're gearing as we're into that holiday season. We are grateful for our audience and their fervent support. And I'm grateful to have you. Tina Doll is a close friend of mine and we're glad you're all here. So until our next show, shout out to the Midas Mighty and the Legal AFers.

1:23:09Seriously, why aren't Democrats in Washington doing more to stop Trump? I know.

1:23:14Michael Popok:Have you heard about Phil Weiser in Colorado, though? No. Is he different? Yeah. A.G. Weiser sued the Trump administration 65 times. He's beating Trump in court again and again. Things like protecting Obamacare against Trump's illegal tariffs. And he even won against Ticketmaster. So he actually gets results. Exactly. As Governor, Phil will fight for Colorado. Paid for by Phil Weiser for Colorado Registered Agent Nanna Nuskese.

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