Legal AF Full Episode - 7/9/2025

28:05And so she says, to be clear, today's merits dispute is not about the president's ability to unilaterally restructure the federal government. No one argues that it is lawful for him to do so. instead. Because so what she's saying is no one's saying he's allowed to restructure the government without congressional authority. Not even the government is saying it. She says, instead, the president insists that his administration's actions in carrying out this executive order in the memo are an exercise of existing executive branch authority to make staffing decisions, not a fundamental reorganization of the federal government.

28:37And so, you know, it's basically, as you said, not a question on the merits. It's a question of, you know, basically, what are they going to, you know, can he do something like this? And, you know, maybe they will just do it through attrition and let people leave. But we know that's not the case. He's already started firing those temporary employees, etc. And, you know, let's say he reduces, let's say he does all these things unlawfully. Let's say he fires all these people. He doesn't allow hiring. He makes every agency head go to Doge and say, can I hire this person or not? And he significantly reduces the workforce.

29:18And then it makes its way up to the Supreme Court four years from now. At that point, the damage is done, right? And that's where you can't unscramble the egg. And, you know, look, when you see things that happen, like the National Weather Service didn't warn the people in Texas prior to that horrific flood that killed all those children. And I mean, I didn't sleep that night. I was so upset by that story. Just the idea of those parents with those children who were missing, it broke my heart. You know, I, uh, Christy Noem said it was, you know, failure of antiquated computer systems. I really hope she's right.

29:54I hope it's not because, uh, we're reducing, you know, the, we, we don't, we don't think that the national weather service has to do with public safety. I clearly think it does. And I think that's a clear example of it and how critical and important the National Weather Service is, especially with all the climate change that's happening and the catastrophic weather events that keep happening, whether it's the fires, the floods, and tornadoes, hurricanes, you know, all the things that are happening. The National Weather Service is one of the most critical, life-saving infrastructure agencies, frankly.

30:33And I just hope and pray to God that they somehow are not going to be affected and impacted by this reorganization and these cuts. And that this horrible thing that happened that is just unrelated to that is my hope, because that would really be a terrible, terrible tragedy.

30:53Dina Doll:Oh, absolutely. I mean, it's a horrible story. I mean, I think everybody across this country, it was the tragedy of that camp and all the people's lives who were lost there. And this is why Justice Ketanji Brown-Jackson is like, can we need to keep the status quo? Because there is going to be real harm. He's talking about firing thousands from the Veterans Affairs. People who served in our military and need health care are not going to be as provided for and get the services they need when you cut staff like that. I mean, this is if you if he does what his plan was, which was restructure tens of thousands of agencies, you know, our government has all those agencies affect our lives in so many ways.

31:45Dina Doll:And let's talk about the actual employees, because, you know, for all the federal employees out there who have MAGA has turned into a bad guy. You know, my father was an immigrant, got his degree here in this country in economics, and he was a government employee his whole life. really believed in the cause, worked in public health, worked in veterans administration, worked in public health departments, different levels of government, and was able to raise a family, right? I mean, these are good jobs that people who believe in giving back to the government and contributing to all these agencies, whether or not it's education, whether or not it's, you know, health are so important.

32:29Dina Doll:And instead of being thanked for using their skills to give back to all of us, they're being made the bad guy. And so I think just to also point out to so many people who got this decision, and it was more than just about our democracy. It was about, am I going to get fired? What am I going to do about providing for my family? So many people move to different cities and locations in order to work for the federal government and now maybe kind of are left stranded in those locations. The ripple effect, not only to those individual families, but to our economy, especially during the time that Trump's tariffs are like tanking our economy and he's hurting our dollar, the value of the dollar.

33:16Dina Doll:And now you may have even a loss of more jobs. And just the dehumanization, the demonizing of people in our government, like as if they are doing something bad instead of like providing the foundation and the fabric upon which all of us depend on in ways that we just don't always see. And so, you know, I just wanted to kind of point out that, too, for anyone who's affected by this or knows somebody affected by this. Hang in there. We you know, you have our support. And it's just this is just another unfortunate effect of, you know, Trump's dismantling. But this is why we have to vote in the midterms.

33:55Dina Doll:We cannot as as bad of the news we get. We can't be overwhelmed. We can't turn it off. We can't give it up because we have to fight for people who may be the ones who, you know, are kind of feeling have lost their jobs and maybe feel like they can't do the fight. The rest of us have to continue the fight. We can't give up on this. I'm glad you I'm glad you give that really humanizing perspective, Dina. You know, in addition to those individuals, those is, as you said, is the people who rely on the services provided by the government. Right. And you don't want that to be a for profit place to, you know, to, to provide that service.

34:32There's certain services that really shouldn't be driven by profit. It should be driven by people who want to give back. I mean, I was a lifelong public servant myself, you know, for 30 years, I worked for the government and it's just a different, it's a completely different motivator, a different mindset. You're there to help people and that's it. That's what you're there to focus on. You're not there to focus on profits over people. And so there are certain things that absolutely need to be done by the government and certainly not just by one man who unilaterally just makes these decisions. And that's what he wants.

35:08He wants ultimate power. He wants to be king and he wants to go against truly the founding of this country, which was that we don't have kings and we have separation of powers and checks and balances. So it's scary. It's really like real life scary, you know, that that so many catastrophic things can happen and are happening. And and you need more people in place to help with that, not less. You know, FEMA, he's cutting FEMA, he's cutting, you know, all the all the things that help people in these in these catastrophic events. So hopefully, I mean, we'll see how this goes, but this is not great.

35:51And, you know, the Supreme Court, they're just enabling, they're completely enabling this unitary executive. So we need to take our first ad break because we love our sponsors. We depend on our sponsors. And it's what keeps the lights on at Legal AF and the Midas Touch Network. So let's take a quick break for our first sponsor. The weather, it's heating up and your nighttime bedroom temperature has a huge impact on your sleep quality. If you wake up too hot or too cold, I highly recommend you check out Miracle-Made's bedsheets. Miracle-Made sheets are inspired by NASA and use silver-infused fabrics that are temperature-regulating so you can sleep at the perfect temperature all night long.

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39:17And what's important and what I love about our sponsors is they choose us. They know what we're about. They know what our message is. They know that we're not beholden to any corporate America. We don't have any big, you know, certainly the Midas Brothers, the Mizellas Brothers, you know, don't tell us what to say or not say. We just come on here and we have a point of view for sure. And these are the sponsors who choose us as well. And, you know, they send us their products. We test them out. And I've become huge, huge, huge fans of some of them. And actually many of them. And so it's just fantastic.

39:57So if you can support them, we appreciate it very much. So let's go now to our next topic. Mr. Kilmar Abrego Garcia, who is been essentially a human ping pong ball. Right. He just to remind everyone where we are with him. He is the individual who was here legally. He went through an immigration process where a judge ruled years ago that he couldn't be deported to El Salvador. He could remain here because he was trying to be recruited by an El Salvadorian gang and he rejected it. And when he rejected it, his life was in danger. And so he came to the United States, sought asylum, and basically a judge ruled he cannot be deported to El Salvador.

40:49and he can remain here. He got married. He became, he had children here and he was lawfully, gainfully employed here. And he was swept up in this immigration, Trump immigration enforcement. And they admitted that, and he was sent to El Salvador. He was tortured. And he's talked about what happened to him there. The conditions there sound absolutely horrific. I mean, beyond anything that a civilized society, certainly we would never accept in this country, you know, deprivation of sleep, of food, of water, of, you know, basically beaten and all of the terrible things you can imagine that you read about and hear about that happen in uncivilized societies, frankly.

41:40And And so the government admitted on the record that he was sent to El Salvador by mistake. That was their words. It was an accident. It was a mistake. They shouldn't have done it. And so they went to court in Maryland and Judge Zinnis ordered his return, ordered that they have to facilitate his return. Well, Trump was like, I can't. I have no authority. you know, mocking the government, you know, mocking the judge essentially kind of like, oh, make me, I can't. And, you know, even the president of El Salvador went to the White House and they were, you know, laughing and talking about, you know, whatever.

42:24But Trump never asked, you know, never at least publicly asked him to bring him back. He just said he couldn't, he doesn't have the authority. And that went all the way up to the United States Supreme Court where they, 9-0, which almost never happens these days, ruled that Trump has to facilitate his return, that the administration has to do it. They disagreed and said they had to do it. And again, Trump was sort of giving the middle finger, you know, the proverbial middle finger that he's not going to return Mr. Obrego Garcia. And then I think realized, okay, you have to, right? You have to do it.

43:01So what did they do? They manufactured a criminal case against him. Okay. They literally said, they went back, I think it was from what, it was like 2022 or something. There was a traffic stop in Tennessee where the authorities there, all they did was take down the name, like handwritten names and dates of birth of the people in the car and let them go. That was it. that was the big thing. They literally did a traffic stop and let them go. They then turned that into a human smuggling case. Now, there's a big difference between human trafficking and human smuggling. But from the press conferences about Mr.

43:44Abrego Garcia, you wouldn't know that there is a difference, right? They make him out to be a gang member. They make him out to be a human trafficker. They make him out to be smuggled's children, you know, all these kinds of things. and what's the difference between human trafficking and human smuggling human trafficking is the movement of humans right of people it can be within the united states or from different countries you know it doesn't have to be from one country to another you can have human trafficking um you know there's sex trafficking there's labor trafficking there's different kinds of human trafficking and it's the movement of of humans it's the transporting of of people by force fraud or coercion.

44:22It's essentially that's what it is. It's slavery, essentially. And human smuggling, by contrast, is basically transporting someone, okay, across the country, you know, into the country or out of the country. Somebody who might be illegal or, you know, not able to come here, you know, and they bring them here. But it's like a contract, a deal, you know, to transport someone. It's like an Uber ride, you know, it's very different. And there's consent between the parties usually. And, you know, that's what smuggling is. And that's what he is charged with. Now, he may or may not have done it. You know, I don't know, but he was, they suddenly now they have an indictment and that's what they use to bring him back.

45:17He goes before the Tennessee court and faces that judge who's like, well, normally I don't hold people in on bail for human smuggling because that's not a serious crime. But there's this whole thing about if he gets released, they're going to deport him. And so they can't prosecute the case. And so he wants to stay in because he doesn't want to be deported. He's like, no, keep me in criminal custody so that I can't be deported. Because now the government's saying, oh, okay, we know we can't send him to El Salvador, but we'll send him to another country, you know, some third country that he has no connection to.

45:54And we know some of those countries that Trump is doing this to have some of the worst human rights violations in the world. And so there's that whole thing going on. In the meantime, there's still the Judge Zinnis case in Maryland, that original case where she ordered him brought back. And some of us, when he was brought back, some of us asked, does that mean that case is over, that it's moot because he's returned? Well, Judge Zinnis says, no, it is not. And she's keeping it going. Dina, why don't you tell everyone, I just gave us the background. And why don't you bring us up to speed about the hearing that Judge Zinnis just had and the posture of that situation?

46:29Because the words, the contempt she has for the federal government, essentially accusing them of lying and what she's going to do, was actually astounding to me. I have never heard a federal judge in my entire career say things like she has said about the distrust of the Department of Justice employees of the prosecutors or the lawyers from the Department of Justice. So I'll turn it over to you, Dina. Tell us what she did.

47:03Dina Doll:Yes. Well, I know. It sounds like, I mean, she is, they had asked for the, the government asked for the dismissal of this case. And she found that to be meritless. And maybe you should, you sounded like you wanted to, why don't you just talk about what the judge in particular said that you kind of found so. And then I'll jump into some of the other developments also in this case with the UN and the El Salvadorian statement. And the gag order in his criminal case, because there's a lot of different pieces. That's true. Yeah. So Judge Zinnis held a hearing yesterday. And the Department of Justice basically moved to dismiss the case, saying it's moved.

47:38You know, no need to do this anymore. We brought him back. It's done. And she said, no, this, she said, absolutely. I'm denying your motion to dismiss because I have to bring back the status quo. Like I have to bring him back to where he was before you did this to him. And also I don't believe anything that you said. So I still have a contempt proceeding that I am trying to get to the bottom of because you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth. By the way, these are my words, not hers. This is my paraphrasing of what she's essentially said. And she basically said, you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth because on the one hand, you say you're going to try the criminal case.

48:12Now, don't forget, this is the same Department of Justice, right? It's the same government, whether you are trying to deport him or you're trying to prosecute him. You're all part of the federal government. You all work for Donald Trump. So you can't say, well, no, one side is going to try the case and prosecute him. But the other side is saying, no, we're going to deport him and not try the case. and I think they want to deport him and not try the case because there really is no case and the only reason they brought that case was you know to try to dirty him up some more and make up an excuse to bring him back so she basically ordered a hearing on July 10th and and said the government has to produce someone who's going to testify under oath you don't normally make prosecutors or government you know lawyers testify under oath but about what they plan to do next with Abrego Garcia under penalty of perjury, because if they lie, if they lie, she can then basically bring perjury charges against them and hold them in contempt.

49:13Now, you know, she wants to know, what are you planning on doing? How are you going to do it? When are you going to do it? What notice will you give to Mr. Abrego Garcia? What due process are you going to give him? Do you plan on removing him? If so, to what country? She just wants to know what the, This is all about due process. This is not no one saying Mr. Abrego Garcia is a saint or not. I have no idea. I don't know anything about him other than what I read in the paper. And this is about due process and giving people, whether it's criminal or immigration, due process of law. The law applies to everyone, even the most, even the people who you find the most objectionable, even the people who are the least pleasant people, you know, criminals, etc.

49:57Everyone in this country is afforded due process of law. That's what makes this country great. and this judge literally said i'm going to put you under oath and i want someone to show up who has something who who has information because of this dual legal drama that's going on you know with with the tennessee case in this case it's just insane and she basically said you know let me i have some of her quotes let me find them she said um you know the department of justice essentially said, look, this was an isolated mistake. It won't happen again during this hearing yesterday, right? And she says, no, no need to do anything, judge.

50:35You don't need a hearing. This, this is a mistake. It won't happen again. And judge Zinnes cut off this lawyer, this department of justice lawyer and said, for three months, your clients have told the world they weren't going to do anything to bring back Mr. Abrego Garcia. Doesn't that matter? And she tried to pin down the department of justice about what are your deportation plans? You know, the DOJ attorney said the current plan is to deport him to a third country, but that plan could change. So to say more is pure speculation. Then the judge just said, basically, I don't buy that for a second.

51:10And she accused the Department of Justice of not being truthful and asked if he was indicted in part to help facilitate his return to the U.S. They said no, which, of course, I don't believe. And she said, I want you to be and then she said, I want you to be really careful with me. She's basically saying, you lie to me, that's it. And so, you know, this was a three-hour hearing. She was clearly incredulous over the government's complete lack of candor and their complete lack of any definite plan to finally be truthful to the court and, you know, what their plans are. So, you know, I think she said some quote, like trying to get the Department of Justice to give us some details about what they're considering for Abrego Garcia.

51:52It's like trying to nail jello to a wall to figure out what's going to happen next. So she just by all accounts, the judge was exasperated by the government and essentially is, you know, basically, you know, she ended it with like given the history of this case of unlawful action, series of unlawful actions. I do believe it is well within my authority to at least get this information. And she ordered a hearing for July 10th. So she was just not having it when it comes to the Department of Justice. So that was incredible.

52:26Dina Doll:I mean, the interesting thing is that Judge Crenshaw and his criminal case is having a similar hearing on July 16th. And that hearing is trying to determine whether or not to release him pending trial in that case. Because as we know, in the pre-trial motions, Judge Holmes was dealing, the magistrate judge was dealing with pretrial motions, and she found him not to be a threat to society. He could be released pending trial. But then the government started talking about deporting him. So she decided to keep him. And now July 16th is they're going to have this hearing in front of Crenshaw to decide whether or not to release him.

53:02Dina Doll:And then it's really the same type of information both of these judges are trying to get, which is what do you plan on doing with this man? If you are getting confused about the number of cases and motions around this man, it's not a surprise because it is just there are so many. He has become a symbol for, I think, both sides. Those of us who care about due process, the rule of law, how we treat human beings in this country, you know, really care about him. And then on the other side, right, the bigotry, the dehumanization of like we can do anything, anytime with anybody who maybe doesn't have.

53:43Dina Doll:I mean, he had legal status to say here. I mean, the government said it was a mistake, but maybe wasn't a full citizen. You know, and their belief that maybe even a full citizen you can denaturalize is a whole other issue Trump is going after. But he has become like a symbol for both sides. And that's why there's so much litigation around him. In his criminal case, you know, the Judge Crenshaw went as far as to grant a gag order against Attorney General Pam Bondi, all the lawyers, the DOJ, because of all of the things they've been saying about him. Right. They have been calling him a criminal, despite the fact that he has no criminal conviction, that he's just his actions are just alleged in this case.

54:26Dina Doll:They have been talking about him being a domestic abuser. They've been talking about some videos with minors. They've been talking about him murdering like a gay mother's mother. I mean, the amount of crazy stuff they've been saying about him is insane. So much so that the judge in that case granted this gag order just very quickly, like a day after it was requested. You know, gag orders aren't just routinely given. You are restricting the free speech rights of a lawyer. It's only given when that speech is taking away somebody's constitutional right to a fair and impartial trial. And that's the thing about it.

55:06Dina Doll:Abreu Garcia, as a criminal defendant, you can argue, has even more constitutional rights now because our Constitution allows for quite a bit of rights to somebody who's standing trial in a criminal case. You could ask Donald Trump about it. He got all those same protections. So I was I don't know what you think, Karen, but I was very satisfied to see that gag order because I've been wanting somebody to stop Pam Bonney from all her lies. And finally, some judge did. It's a question whether or not applies to Kristi Noem and ICE as well. The motion asked for Kristi Noem and ICE to also be gagged.

55:43Dina Doll:But in his, it just gives like a one line grant. It was a little bit vague as to the scope of it. Either way now, now that Abrego Garcia is part of the criminal justice system, he has a whole other set of constitutional rights that are afforded to him. And whether or not these charges can move forward or if they are just so flimsy and so based in evidence that they end up getting dismissed, like we'll see. We're just at the very beginning here. But make no mistake, you know, if there's an avalanche of information and law around him because of the fact, you know, that Trump is trying to make him a symbol.

56:26Oh, and then there's also the UN inquiry that I don't know if you wanted to say anything about the gag order, but otherwise I could go into the UN.

56:32Dina Doll:No, go ahead. Yeah, go ahead. So this just came out also recently where, so four family members of people who were sent to this El Salvadorian prison, including the family of Andre Ramirez Hernandez, filed a request for the UN to look into the fact that their family members were kind of disappeared and sent to this El Salvador in prison and asked for this inquiry to be put up forward. And let's just take a moment here to think about this. Here we have, you know, the United States having been a fundamental, you know, partner informing the UN, trying to have a world order, the United States always trying to see itself as like this ethical, moral leader of the world, right?

57:25Dina Doll:The leader of the rule of law. And these family members being so desperate and feeling as if our justice system is failing them are instead going to the UN and asking the UN to look into how the United States government disappeared their family members looking for the UN to step in against what they're seeing as this human rights abuse. This is something, you know, I mean, would we have even thought we would be in this position not that long ago? It just shows the level of lawlessness that Trump is doing. But as part of that inquiry that the UN opened up, El Salvador sent a letter to the UN saying that the United States, I mean, they didn't say the word the United States.

58:15Dina Doll:They said the country, the other country that they are in this partnership with has the legal jurisdiction over the people that they are merely housing the people in their jails. But the legal jurisdiction over these people reside with the United States. This is, of course, completely counter to the declaration that the government submitted to Judge Boesburg, right, in that related case having to do with all the people that were deported, not just Abrego Garcia. And so both that report has been filed with that Judge Boesburg case saying, hey, we, United States does have constructive custody based on what El Salvador saying this isn't some sort of diplomatic issue that the United States can't ask the sovereign nation of El Salvador to do something because El Salvador is saying that we have legal control of them.

59:13Dina Doll:So we do have constructive custody. And that letter was also submitted to even a different case, a Judge Gallagher, who's handling the request of a return of somebody else, the pseudonym Christian who was sent to this same El Salvadorian prison as a result of a completely separate case about unaccompanied minors being stripped of certain asylum protections under Trump's first term. That person was now 20 years old when they were just sent to the El Salvadorian prison in March. But so a lot of developments on not just that are affecting Abrego Garcia and kind of the larger context of Abrego Garcia being a part of Trump, just, you know, loading up people and sending them to the CICOT.

1:00:06Dina Doll:I mean, we have to take a step back here and ask, why is this happening? Why are we sending our prisoners or, you know, our human beings that we are incarcerating for whatever reason to foreign countries. It makes absolutely no sense. We are literally outsourcing, you know, outsourcing that. It's not like we don't have our own prisons. Look, our own prisons aren't great, right? I'm a criminal defense attorney. I happen to therefore spend a lot of time in jails and prisons. They're not great. They're actually quite difficult. And they're very, very inhumane in a certain sense. I mean, obviously, there are people who have to be incarcerated and who are incarcerated.

1:00:51I think our whole system of corrections and incarceration needs to be reformed. And even in our own system, compared to certain European countries, for example, it's really, there's so much more we could do to make it much better, much more humane, much safer, make it actually something that helps people so that when they come out, they can be better individuals and better members of our community. so you know that could be a whole conversation that that I won't have here but it's certainly much better than these countries that they are choosing to send them to right they're sending them to people some of the worst human rights violations notoriously I mean it is it's truly cruel and unusual punishment that they're doing I don't understand why we are not kind of fighting that even more, even though it's lawful, even though we're allowed to do it.

1:01:43The fact that we as a civilized country, as a civilized nation are doing something like that is so disgraceful and really takes us back so far. I mean, I was, well, we've got to take another ad break before Salty cuts me off. But, you know, I was watching, my husband and I were watching a documentary the the other night on Led Zeppelin. And woven in there, just sort of, you know, sprinkled in there is all of the things that were going on in the 60s. All of the human rights violations, you know, and human rights movement, I should say, and the women's rights movements, and all these things that happened in the 60s that were so transformative.

1:02:26And you couldn't help but feel, oh, wow, we have gone all the way back there. So much of where we are today is undoing the last 50 years of this country. And that to me, almost 60 years of this country, that to me, what was so stunning that is happening now. And this is just one more example.

1:02:50Dina Doll:And just to say that people sent to El Salvador weren't even convicted criminals. It wasn't as if they would be entitled to be in prison here in the United States. You know, there is why, to your point, why we're even sending people to Sudan, even though they were convicted criminals, but why we think sentencing somebody to life because they happen to be undocumented in our country. Why that? Well, I mean, there's millions of us who think that's not okay, but that is in itself like a disgusting idea. But to be honest, I'm worried because that ICE, that budget, that huge, horrible bill they just passed and how much money they just put toward ICE.

1:03:35I would not be surprised if a large chunk of that is going to go for four private, undocumented or stripped of their documentation centers here in the United States.

1:03:50Dina Doll:I think that you wouldn't. So, you know, there's a plan there. There's a plan. Like the alligator Alcatraz and all those things. I mean, all that money, I think that is probably going to be, I would not be surprised. But either way, yes, that's a concept of anybody going to life. Nobody should have to be going to life for anybody. You know, their life sentencing for happening to come here and not properly document yourself is, is, is. I also can't imagine going to a country that you have no connection to. You don't speak the language. You don't know anybody. You don't have any, you don't have a passport there either.

1:04:28Right. You're not a citizen of their country. Like you can't go back to your own country for whatever reason, because either, you know, because their own violations there, you have family here in the United States and you're in some other place. Like it's just unbelievable to me where we are. I just can't, I just can't believe it. Anyway, I got it. We got to go to our next ad break or Salty's going to literally, he's going to cut us off. So let's go to our last ad break and then we'll go talk. We'll keep talking. You know, life moves fast and sometimes I just need a moment to relax, recharge or get focused without any hassle.

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1:07:53It's so awful and bloated that it's caused Elon Musk to start a third party. And, you know, I don't know, MAGA is having a civil war, which is fine with me. Right. But go for it. But really, it's an atrocity, this bill. I mean, it's just everything that it's doing. You know, everything about Trump is he says one thing and then does something else. It's just fascinating. And there's nothing different about this bill because it is making just the parts of making government bigger. increasing our national debt, you know, everything you can imagine is happening, making rich people richer, cutting off, you know, much needed services to poor people who need it, et cetera.

1:08:36And one thing that it also did was it is essentially cutting off Medicaid, that the Medicaid funding to Planned Parenthood, essentially, which would shutter Planned Parenthood in, you know, I think they said something like 2.1 million, you know, people wouldn't receive healthcare and, you know, hundreds of Planned Parenthood would have to close down, et cetera. And, you know, there was a recent decision, a six to three decision, a Medina case in the Supreme Court, but essentially said when, when Planned Parenthood sued because Trump restricted Medicaid funding to Planned Parenthood. Now, Planned Parenthood provides healthcare services, right?

1:09:26They provide all kinds of healthcare services, right? Sexually transmitted diseases, women's gynecological examinations, et cetera. I mean, it's a primary provider, healthcare provider for so many women. And they also provide abortion counseling and in states where it's lawful abortion services. You can either, they can either perform the abortion or they can refer you to somewhere else, or they can also prescribe Medicaid, Medicaid, Medicaid, medicine, you know, medical abortions. And so, and so, you know, Planned Parenthood absolutely, absolutely provides an essential, essential service for so many women.

1:10:12And this decision basically said that Planned Parenthood, you cannot sue Medicaid under the statute, right? Because the statute does not allow a provider who is denied service under the Medicaid statute to sue them. And that was not great. Right. But then so they lost. And so they thought they were going to lose that ability to use Medicaid. But then the big, beautiful bill or the big bloated bill, whatever you want to call it, had a provision in there that essentially defunded Planned Parenthood. Now, they can sue. They're allowed to now sue under that, right? A constitutional challenge to an act of Congress, to a statute.

1:11:00That's what most, anytime lawsuits happen against the government, you are essentially suing about a statute, about a law, right? That's what you're doing. And there's no provision in there that says you can't do that. And so despite the fact that this other decision, the Medina decision, said you can't sue under the Medicaid statute, they could bring a suit against the government with respect to the defunding mechanism against Planned Parenthood. So they went to Massachusetts and a judge there issued a 14-day temporary restraining order, essentially saying that you are blocked from cutting off planned parenthood funding for 14 days.

1:11:46The reason, again, they can do that is because, you know, because it was a statutory, it was challenging the statute. And also, it's not a nationwide injunction. Here, it was only two states that are bringing this statute here. And what they're doing, bringing this lawsuit against the statute here. And essentially, it's a First Amendment challenge saying that you're punishing me for our viewpoint, right? Just for our freedom of speech or freedom of association. And so you still have to fund us. You're not allowed to discriminate. no statute that Congress passes is allowed to discriminate that violates First Amendment rights of your freedom of speech or your viewpoint.

1:12:31So, you know, that's what the temporary injunction has happened in 14 days. Like, see if the judge turns it into a preliminary injunction, which means it'll continue throughout the course of the whole case while they litigate the case. Um, it'll be interesting to see if, if the Trump administration continues to litigate the case in front of this judge, or instead tries to take this up to the appellate courts and then the Supreme Court, who I'm not very confident that the Supreme Court will, will rule against Donald Trump on, on most anything, especially on this topic. But so it's unclear procedurally how this is going to go.

1:13:14But for now, it stayed for 14 days.

1:13:19Dina Doll:Yeah, exactly. And really the difference is that, as you said, it was a South Carolina. South Carolina had stripped the ability of people in South Carolina to receive Planned Parenthood services, despite the fact that the Medicaid spending provision that Congress had passed said that they could go see any qualified provider. The Supreme Court held that that spending provision did not create an individual right to sue. And here we're having just the judge declare, I mean, even temporarily, that the law was violating or potentially violated the First Amendment or the constitutional rights. And that's why there should be this temporary stay.

1:14:04Dina Doll:And by declaring it unlawful, then even though it's not quite a nationwide injunction, it almost has the impact of it. I think that if we may very well see, as you said, it'll be interesting to see procedurally in this post ban of nationwide injunctions. Do they file a lawsuit in Texas, let's say, where they would get maybe an opposite ruling and then you're going to have one judge with a temporary stay, one judge without. And then you're going to create the conflict that Justice Kavanaugh said, hey, no worries. If we have conflicts, this is what we're here for. you know, the Supreme Court resolves conflicts and they may then take it up and decide which way they're going to resolve it.

1:14:46Dina Doll:I mean, I don't see, I mean, I think the bottom line with the Supreme Court nationwide injunction rulings is the Supreme Court is going to be a lot busier. That was never the point of the Supreme Court is to do those kind of day-to-day, minute-by-minute orders. They were really supposed to take like the great big constitutional questions of our time and be thoughtful and careful. And that's why they don't take that many cases, but they may just happen to be resolving dispute after dispute because that would be the strategy, right? That would be the strategy of wanting to reverse or have a different outcome in terms of this Planned Parenthood and the bill.

1:15:29Dina Doll:But like, Make no mistake that patients who are receiving Medicaid, Planned Parenthood patients, about 60 % of them receive Medicaid. So it would be crushing. That's the whole point of the provision is to crush Planned Parenthood because they still do provide abortions in states where they're legally allowed to. And Republicans want to take away any access to abortion at all. But the bottom line is, is so many people in this country, women and men. I've gotten some social media replies. There's men who also get care from Planned Parenthood. And this is their primary care doctor. Health care is definitely an attack by this bill that they just passed, as we know, stripping millions of people, kicking them off of Medicaid.

1:16:19Dina Doll:people who are going to be in the middle of cancer treatments, in the middle of heart issues, dealing with chronic diseases like diabetes, no longer going to be having insurance. This is going to close hospitals, put a major strain on our health system in general. And our healthcare system was messed up to begin with. You know, I mean, there are so many problems with our healthcare system and especially the health and medical insurance system. The fact that this is going to make it worse is unbelievable to me. I am actually shocked that this is where we're headed again. You know, it makes no sense.

1:16:56I mean, healthcare is one of those things that you would think should be provided by the government in a way, right? Or at least have some like, like education, like, like emergency services, like the fire department, like libraries, you know, there's so many things that are provided by the government that are essential. And healthcare care is one of those things that it just makes no sense that there are people who like, it's not your fault if you get cancer, right? It's not, it can happen to anybody. It's just, it's something that just befalls you if you get sick. And the fact that people have to go into debt because of it and, and not, and get denied coverage and get denied services.

1:17:35And, you know, the fact that that is not something that the government provides is a complete shock to me. And when you, again, go to other countries that are civilized. That is one of the essential services that is provided. And that this is doing that, you know, and Planned Parenthood in particular, the fact that they exist still in states that where abortion is outlawed is such a testament to them and shows they're not just about abortions, they're about health care. They still provide services that are not related to abortion to so many people. And because our health care system is so messed up, the fact that there are these not-for-profits in rural areas where people might not have any other access to health care, right, that they can get health care, like, and that he's trying to shut this down.

1:18:21I mean, Planned Parenthood is one of the good guys, right? It's one of the, it's one of the places, one of the entities that provides a true service to people, and how you can argue with health care, right, of all the, of all the issues, you know, that you may or may not agree with, the one Democrat versus Republican, shouldn't we all want everybody to receive excellent health care? I mean, isn't that something as a country we want all people to receive? Like, how is that controversial? How is that a political issue? And I just find that staggering. And the fact that, I mean, thankfully, that is stopped for right now.

1:19:02And hopefully that will continue. But I am not hopeful with this Supreme Court.

1:19:07Dina Doll:And I think that's why, though, their argument was so interesting, that it was a First Amendment right, because Planned Parenthood is being attacked for their speech. They are giving their patients accurate information, but it is information. They are counseling them on if they want to plan how they have their family, the ways they can do it. And so I actually, I think this was not, it was such a smart strategy, legal strategy, But it also goes to the core of the information, because when you put this up against the other recent lawsuit that was just brought against RFK Jr., the FDA, the CDC, the NIH, for his statement about vaccines and how they're going to take away the vaccine approval, I think, for COVID, specifically for pregnant women and children.

1:19:57Dina Doll:And the lawsuit that was brought against him from the pediatrics and so many doctor associations saying the way he did that was illegal. But when you take RFK Jr., who's now in charge of our health department and all the information he's already said about vaccines and other things and will continue to do that, the disinformation that hurts our health. and you put that against Planned Parenthood, who's giving accurate information, you may not like it, but at least it's accurate and factual and it's treating people with the dignity of making their own decisions based on real information. I mean, families should have a right not to give vaccines if they don't want, depending on the health situations of their children.

1:20:42Dina Doll:Some people maybe can't take it or whatever, but give them at least accurate information instead of lying about all of of studies out there. You know, so I'm so glad the medical associations were taking R.F.K. Jr. to task because he no longer can just say whatever he wants now that he has the power of the health department there behind him. And then here we see, so them arguing for the First Amendment rights of Planned Parenthood of saying, you know, we have to live in a world where we are, If you're saying something accurately as a doctor, you should be able to have a right to say that. Yeah.

1:21:23So it's just unbelievable the state of this topic. I just, I actually can't believe it, but here we are. And we need to keep a very close eye on this because a lot is at stake here. This is a huge, huge, will be a huge problem. And hopefully the judge will, will extend this to a preliminary injunction and hopefully the Supreme court won't undo it because otherwise, I don't know if Planned Parenthood can survive. I don't know if there'll be private money donated or what will happen, or if States will step in and fund the Planned Parenthoods in, in, in their States that in certain States. So, so that's something we have to keep an eye on because they serve so many people in this country.

1:22:10And as we've been saying, provide such an essential healthcare service to everybody. So Dina, we have reached the end of another episode of the Midweek Legal AF. Anything else on your mind that you want to chat about before we thank everybody for listening and we say goodbye.

1:22:35Dina Doll:You know, I think we at least covered the last few days. Let's just say that. And I don't know what you thought about the 4th of July weekend. It was a weird time to be having our celebration of our country because there's so much that we've even just talked about in this thing that, you know, it's just not the country that my father chose to immigrate here too. And that I'm a proud American growing up. And, and, and I think there's a lot that a lot of people I'm talking to are grappling with that, right? Having keeping patriotism at the same time that the country that you're a citizen of is doing so many things that fundamentally you disagree with.

1:23:14Dina Doll:But anyway, I'm so glad that we get to grapple with these issues here. And yeah, I want to say something about the 4th of July, because I listened on the 4th of July to Ray Charles singing America the Beautiful. And I had the chills. I'm like, that song just is an amazing song. And I love it. And, you know, I realized as I was thinking about it that I do love this country. I do love America. I love everything it stands for. I don't love MAGA. I don't love Trump. And I don't love the Republican Party, but they're not America. They are the current occupiers of that particular branch of government.

1:23:54And they are certain people in this country who I feel have lost their way. We got to figure out how to bring them back and really bring back the wonderful, beautiful values of this country. But I'm not going to let Donald Trump and his hateful messaging and his exclusionary messaging ever take away my love for this beautiful country. And that song, you know, just really reminded me how much our country is so much bigger than any one person, any one president. And I don't want anyone, I never want to lose that and lose that patriotism for this country that I will fight for until my last breath.

1:24:38Yeah.

1:24:38Dina Doll:And I think it's also important, you know, our country has never been perfect. We were founded on slavery. You know, the women just had the right to vote barely a hundred years ago. We have been far from perfect. Women couldn't get credit cards until the seventies. I mean, you and I, what would have happened to us? But that's the point, Dina. That's the point you just made. Our country has has always had issues. But the one thing we've always had is patriotism, love for our country, and we're going to fight for our beliefs and our, and what we love. So I am not going to let Donald Trump ruin the 4th of July for me or my love of this country.

1:25:22And I urge everyone to listen to, to that song. Cause it's really, really. Absolutely.

1:25:28Dina Doll:And all of our talk about the Supreme court and how it's so bad, the Supreme court upheld foivory under Dred Scott. We have also had bad Supreme Court and we have survived. Survived and we've been amazing. And we've been amazing. And we will get there again. We will get there again. And that's why sometimes it's hard because we're delivering, I feel like, a lot of bad news. And I know some people can get really overwhelmed and disenchanted and that's what they want, right? So we have to both be informed of the bad news in order to be good citizens. but at the same time, not give up and not give up on our belief and hope and patriotism and realize the trajectory of our country and democracy is not linear.

1:26:13Dina Doll:You know, it isn't just a straight line. Exactly. Right. It's going to have a little curves in that line. Two steps forward, one step back. So we've taken a step back, but we'll get there. So keep the fight up. Exactly. All right. Great to see you, Dina. Good to see you, too. Thanks, everyone, for joining us tonight. And please Listen in every Wednesday, every Saturday to Legal AF.

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