Legal AF Full Episode - 9/27/2025

27:13He's been on it, which just goes to show, though, if you if you're Halligan, Bondi, Trump or anybody, this level of underestimation of your foe is a really big deal. But you know what? I hate that this has happened. But if it had to happen to somebody, it's Comey because somebody like that's going to kick their ass. You want that to be the test case. And I've been speaking to a lot of people that are very centrist about things. And even they are like, someone's going to get their ass kicked. It's not going to be James Comey. But look at all of them. Letitia James. We've got Abby. You know, Abby Lowell is spectacular.

27:54And Abby's been killing them. And, you know, Lisa Cook is represented by Abby Lowell as well. And he's been kicking their ass too, you know. And then you've got Schiff, who's a prosecutor, a good lawyer in his own right. Right. These are not they're not picking the weak sisters here to go after. And I think that's going to backfire for them. When we come back from our first commercial break, we're going to talk about Fawney Willis now, of course, being the subject of new Department of Justice investigation. We're going to catch everybody up on Lisa Cook and the independence of the Federal Reserve.

28:23Some new developments at the Supreme Court, as long as we're there, including birthright citizenship is back up. Important. Important. And some funding decisions. by the Supreme Court that may impact the government shutdown and Donald Trump's approach to the government shutdown. Then I want to talk about the First Amendment under assault, along with domestic terrorist groups, aka civil liberties groups, immigration rights groups, funders for democratic values, funders for democratic values like George Soros, and what all that means. And And you've got it from a great perspective in terms of somebody that you're representing.

29:03But let's talk about our great pro-democracy sponsors that are here with Legal AF. They are supportive for the last five years of everything that we do and say. And now more than ever, independent media, independent commentary, which is literally under attack. We don't have to say it as a way to like, hey, support our show and hit the subscribe button because we're under attack. We're under attack. And I know this community is important to the people that are the fervent supporters of Legal AF and what we do on the Mightest Touch Network, because frankly, I meet them, as Katie does, in the streets every day.

29:41I mean, there's not a day that goes by that I don't bump into somebody that stops and talks to me about what they get out of being part of the Legal AF community. And it's so rewarding, but so important now more than ever to support what we do. So there's numbers of ways to support Legal AF. The podcast, Five Years in the Making, we're top 50 because of you. We're doing our part. But if you weren't here, we wouldn't be top 50 on Apple Pod. We wouldn't be top 50 on YouTube weekly rankings of all podcasts. But we want to stay there and continue to rise in the charts so that our content comes to you uninterrupted.

30:19The bigger we get, the bigger we are, the more your voice is heard. So help us. Listen to us on audio. watch us on video and vice versa. Then we've got Legal AF, the YouTube channel that I curate. I got over a dozen contributors. We have 820 ,000 subscribers, many of them you and Legal AF versus Midas Mighty. 270 million views of the work we're doing. Some amazing, amazing work is being done. 10 videos a day on Legal AF YouTube channel. Become a subscriber there as well. Then we've got the Substack world that Katie and I sometimes join forces on. We've got the Substack for Legal AF. I do two lives a day.

30:54We've got written work by our contributors. We've got video clips of things we think you need to see. You're going to want to be on the Legal AF Substack for that kind of immediacy. And now we've got a word from our sponsors. Let's be honest. Most of us are tired, stressed, and dealing with some kind of pain. And what do we do? We power through. Because the last thing we want is another prescription. And let's face it, nothing in the medicine cabinet ever actually works. That's why I'm so glad I found CBDistillery. Their CBD products are helping so many people, myself included. Sleep better, feel more relaxed, and ease everyday pain.

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34:04And please support our show. Thank you, Jones Road. Welcome back. And thank you to our sponsors that help keep hope alive and keep the show on the air. Really appreciate all of them. Katie Fang. We got our crossover episode here of Legal AF today as Katie sits in for Ben Mysellis. FOPOC. FOPOC. Pohang. Wait, what's the last one? Pohang. Pohang. Pohang. I thought I was thinking K-pop. Oh, K-pop. No, it's got to be K-pop. Well, why can't it be K-pop? Because I think there is a K-pop. Oh, that's right. P-O-P. Yeah, we could do K-pop. Oh, I like that. That's a good one. And I'm Korean. That's what I mean.

34:45Oh, gosh, you're so smart. That stays in the pod. I don't need a soda pop. All right. Let's pick up with Lisa Cook, and we'll stay in the Supreme Court sort of lane for some. Well, let me touch base. Let me back up one second. As part of the attacks on Trump's enemies, which he says he's not done with, we also have the Fonny Willis. news. So Fonnie Willis, Fulton County, Georgia prosecutor who successfully brings an indictment against Donald Trump. And then, you know, starts dating the special prosecutor in the office that she picked for the job of prosecuting Donald Trump. I mean, like all people she had a date, that was the one, which normally wouldn't matter.

35:39It sounds like it's an HR issue, But it became like a big issue for MAGA, and they used it as an excuse to try to disqualify her. It led to an embarrassing hearing. I'm not sure a, I'm not, I'm going to be frank. I'm not sure a white guy would have been subjected to this. I'm not sure a white female prosecutor would have been subjected to what she was subjected by, subjected to. But she eventually gets bounced. Trump gets elected. The case gets put on ice. Now it's going to be assigned to a new prosecutor. And now it looks like, Katie, what are you hearing about this subpoena to try to find her travel records again?

36:17So you and I have to hear about her going to Sonoma or wherever and sipping wine with her boyfriend. So wait, let me be very clear and let me clarify. Right. So a couple of things. I was literally living in Fulton County last year for this case. And I will tell you this. There are no guarantees that a new prosecuting attorney's office in Georgia that picks up this case after it's reassigned. There are no guarantees that they're going to continue to run with the case. They may wholesale drop all of the charges, some of the defendants, some of the charges. Who the hell knows? But then remember, too, this is still operating in the context of the immunity ruling from the Supreme Court of the United States.

37:01So that's a whole other that's a whole other K-pop episode. By the way, I'm surprised we didn't run into each other. I at one point, because my late mother lived in near Fulton County and I was there, I propped up my laptop on one of those mailboxes. I was doing my own live reporting, like for Midas out in front of the courthouse at one point. I was surprised you and I didn't run into each other. And then here's the second thing, though. They want travel records for election time last year. So in and around November of 2024, it's not going to include the now former boyfriend, former employee, right?

37:40It's not going to include him, Nathan. So I don't know why they're so curious to know in and about her travel around that time of election. There was one rumor at the time that just sort of popped into my brain that they thought she was coordinating with the Biden White House Department. of Justice about her prosecution. Now, we never thought there was any substance to that, that that was all smoke and no fire. Well, that was to get to the point to secure the indictment, though, against Trump and others, right? So that would have been prior to November of 2024. So that's why. But you know what, though, Mike, this is what we really need to think about this, like to not get too far in the weeds.

38:20This Department of Justice is a colossal waste of time and money, right? And I've said this too. You can't release the Epstein files, but you can indict James Comey. You can do travel records for Fonny Willis. I mean, you can do all of Amelia Earhart records can be released. Like, I mean, I don't think that's DOJ related, but this DOJ can't release the Epstein. Are we still looking for Amelia Earhart? Okay. Well, Trump is apparently releasing the records because he can do it. Well, because as you and I have said, this is as part of Trump's distraction methods. He brings major indictments or starts new investigations or drops new files to distract from the things that the American people care about.

39:04As soon as he has a bad news cycle, that's when Comey gets indicted. You know, things are going terrible with him. There's some new revelation. The Kimmel stuff. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. It's obvious. It's obvious. And, you know, look, Jamie Raskin said it aloud. He said, the James Comey thing? This is just a cover up for Epstein. This is just another layer of cover up on Epstein. And now, of course, there's new document. From the Epstein estate. Exactly. The timing is impeccable, right? Yeah, exactly. Let's talk about Lisa Cook now. So I'll frame it. Lisa Cook, one of seven on the Federal Reserve Board of Governors.

39:39In order to get control of the board, he needs another vote. If Trump gets control of the board, he gets ultimate control over who is one of the Federal Reserve regional bank presidents. Why does that matter? Because if he gets rid of Lisa Cook, he actually picks up six additional votes, which will give him nine votes about interest rates. So one gets him nine effectively. Right now, he's only controlling three votes out of 12 to set interest rates on the Federal Open Markets Committee. He gets rid of her. They fire the 12 regional presidents from which five gets selected for the committee. So he gets five new votes plus the four.

40:18Five and four is nine. Nine to three. He sets interest rates. That's what this is all about. But he got his interest rate cut, though. And he got his interest rate cut because his economy sucks. Well, but my point is, for all of his bitching and moaning and going after Jerome Powell, he still secured his interest rate cut, even with Lisa Cook on the board, which is kind of undercutting any theory that he has that Lisa Cook would be some huge impediment for him to be able to do that. No, in MAGA world, they think, see, that was good because then he pressured them. No, in MAGA world, it's because she's black and she's a female.

40:50It has nothing to do with her policies. It has nothing to do with her mentalities when it comes to interest rates. It's they just want to get rid of her because she's black and female. I agree with that. There was a 12-0 vote to cut rates. The only disagreement was how deep to cut them. And the person that voted for the deeper cut is Donald Trump's White House economic advisor, who's privy to their own economic data that shows the Trump economy is failing. He put his hand up and said, we need a bigger boat. We got to cut these rates. I know more than you do over at the White House. And so I'm voting for deeper.

41:28But that's it. Again, Trump gets its cuts. And here's the thing. People need to be reminded. This is a 12 year term for these people. 12 or 14? 14. 14 year term. And it was intentionally set up to have a measure of independence so you wouldn't have to have interference and meddling from people like Donald Trump. And this attack on independence is the same thing with the Comey thing, right? Think about it, right? You rig indictments. You are taking away the independence of thoughtful, ethical prosecutors. And in this instance, you try to boot Lisa Cook. You're trying to attack the independence of this agency, right, and this board.

42:09But here's the thing. A lot of people were worried because the Supreme Court allowed somebody like Rebecca Slaughter on the FTC to be out of commission out of her job. Right. The Supreme Court allowed that to continue. But in this instance, Lisa Cook is differently situated than Rebecca Slaughter. I, in the interest of full disclosure, you know, I work with Norm Eisen at Democracy Defenders. And Norm is is co-counsel, Democracy Defenders is co-counsel with Abby Lowell representing Lisa Cook. And so I know all about the Supreme Court filing that was just done. Here's the thing. The Supreme Court has the opportunity now to be able to say that this is a specific carve out in this particular board that is going to not allow meddling from the executive branch.

42:57but I'm not holding my breath for this SCOTUS. Well, here's where we are. The last brief is in. Three days ago, Lisa Cook argued that her due process rights were violated because she was never given an opportunity to defend herself against the alleged mortgage fraud allegations. There is no mortgage fraud here. Reuters already outed. This is a phony set of charges. She has a home in Annapolis, in Ann Arbor, Michigan. She has a condo in Atlanta. She declares the Michigan home on her property taxes to be her primary residence. She declares, she's told the lender that the condo is her second home.

43:38Yeah. And they gave her a rate, whatever. So nobody, in order for there to be fraud, somebody has to be defrauded. Yeah. Who got duped? No one. no one got duped. So that's, and she gets to put that on in a due process hearing. Otherwise, what is for cause protection? Because the Supreme Court has said as recently as May that for the Federal Reserve, for cause means you can't fire at will a person on the Federal Reserve, at least the chairperson, but I think it applies to all of them. Donald Trump says, okay, I got a cause. I think she committed mortgage fraud. No, that's the equivalent of firing somebody without any proof.

44:18And that's not the firewall that the Supreme Court has said rings the Federal Reserve Board of Governors. She should have the chance to have to prove that this doesn't happen, which, by the way, is horrific too, right, to have to prove you didn't commit a crime or do whatever. But she hasn't even had the chance to do that. And that's the argument that her lawyers are making, as you know, but I'm telling the audience, which is to send this back to Judge Cobb at the trial court level and let her develop the facts on due process, find that she has a due process right, whether under equal protection of the 14th or the Fifth Amendment right to property, property can't be taken away from you without due process, send it back.

44:56Donald Trump's final brief from yesterday was John Sauer saying in response to every living Fed chair from Greenspan, Bernanke, and Yellen saying you cannot fire Lisa Cook, It will wreak havoc with the financial markets. You can't destroy the independents. She has a due process. Right. Their response was the financial markets don't really care about Lisa Cook. And that I love this comment. Wait, it gets better. Then they said that the reason, one of the reasons that he should be allowed to fire her is that nobody cut off her building pass. I'm like, sorry. It sounds like another HR issue. She, because we're all like, she's at work.

45:36She went to the Federal Open Markets Committee meeting two weeks ago. So she voted. There's another one coming up in October. They said, well, she it's because nobody caught off her building pass. She's insubordinate. Nobody respected Trump's firing. Like nobody respected Trump's firing. That's your new defense. Listen, and everybody needs to remember this John Sauer guy. Remember, he's the one who argued that SEAL Team 6 can be dispatched by a sitting president of the United States in the capacity of his role as president. and that it'd be okay to go and execute a political opponent. Well, it's...

46:12That's the same lawyer. How about the candidate for the Third Circuit Court of Appeals two weeks ago, who's a constitutional law professor, when they asked her about that? Well, the Supreme Court hasn't really clearly ruled whether that's possible or not. Will you just say that SEAL Team 6 can't kill Biden on behalf of Trump? Will you just say it out loud? It's a case of first impression. But what's your impression? Well, think about what Trump's just done right now, though, right? You know, he's he's indicting political enemies, a la James Comey right now. So he's one step away from taking it to the final solution.

46:46Right. So so what they should do is find that she has a due process. Lisa Cook has a due process right that she gets to be heard on this issue and ultimately let Judge Cobb decide whether even for cause was properly made out under, you know, because there has been little guidance from the Supreme Court on this. Is it is it inefficiency, neglect of duty and malfeasance or is it something else? But it can't be, hey, here's the cause. I don't like you. There's the door. That can't be because like it's it's this constant pursuit of the expansion of executive powers. That is the goal. And that really does fit actually with the sour argument about SEAL Team 6.

47:29Remember, the whole idea of an immunity case was this idea that the president should have unchecked powers as the executive to be able to do these things. It's the same argument. Sauer has literally said to the Supreme Court that the president should never have to account for decisions he makes in his capacity as the executive. It makes me laugh, but it's galling to think that somebody can make that argument as an attorney with a straight face. And yet he does. And he did this idea that Trump should never have to explain or meet otherwise applicable legal standards like firing somebody for cause.

48:04We all know this from just logical day to day life. You cannot just walk into her and be like, you know what? I don't like you. Bye. Right. Even in at will employment states like Florida, you still can't do that shit. So this idea that the president can do that for somebody who sits in an independent agency like the Federal Reserve. But you know what, Mike, as I've gotten to this point, if the Supreme Court says it's fine and green lights this and the economy tanks even further down into the abyss of hell, whose fault is that? Go dust off your wheelbarrow, because even as Donald Trump's own Council of Economic Advisors has said, every country, including the United States, where a president or dictator has effectively taken over the central bank.

48:49has led to hyperinflation and crushing, crushing. And in other countries. Right, right. That's what I'm saying. And in this country. There's been times when Nixon was able to kind of get control of the Federal Reserve for a little bit while. Nixon's a good comparison there. So while we're at the Supreme Court, Katie, why don't you talk about birthright citizenship? Some people might be thinking, didn't we do this already? There was a birthright citizenship thing about nationwide injunctions. But why don't you catch everybody up about sort of what happened with birthright citizenship several months ago, I think back in April.

49:21When was that? When was that, by the way? It feels like it was 10 years ago. And then why this? What is this new appeal on the substance and the merits of birthright citizenship that Donald Trump's time is trying to tell? So I had to double check. It was June 27th, by the way. It was a decision that it does feel like it was 10 years ago. OK, so 14th Amendment birthright citizenship. We all know what it means. You're born here on U.S. soil, regardless of who your parents are. If you're born here on U.S. soil, you are a United States citizen. Donald Trump issued an executive order when he one of the first things he did when he got back into the Oval Office, basically saying if you were born, I think the date of the executive order was like in February.

50:00Like if you are born after this date, to hell with the idea that you're going to have any type of U.S. citizenship. And you had to be born under certain conditions to not have the citizenship afforded to you. So obviously, groups sued appropriately. And the Supreme Court back in June actually said, we're not touching the substantive issue of the constitutionality of the 14th Amendment when it comes to birthright citizenship. We're just saying that it's not appropriate in all cases to issue nationwide injunctions blocking executive orders, for example, like the one that was being attacked that was done by Donald Trump.

50:39So the actual what we call merits, the actual merits case, the actual substance of the constitutionality of that 14th Amendment, that is now being asked by the Trump administration, courtesy of John Sauer, late on Friday, at least two petitions for writs of certiority. Remember, with the Supreme Court people, the Supreme Court doesn't have to take those appeals. The Supreme Court can exercise its discretion and grant cert to be able to take certain cases. We reasonably anticipate they're going to take this one. They've already ruled on this issue of nationwide injunctions. But late Friday, the Trump administration said, take up at least two decisions from two different courts in this country that have sustained the argument that, yes, the 14th Amendment does apply to all people that are born on U.S.

51:31soil. But what's weird about it, Mike, is that the Trump administration doesn't say expedite this, as in rule on this like very quickly, but they made it clear they wanted it to be heard at least in this 2025-2026 term. Yeah, that's where we are. So we're finally going to get this briefing, assuming that this, which they will, the Supreme Court is going to grant it. This is not on the emergency docket. This is on the writ of certiorari. Three briefs, a lot of Friends of the Court briefs are going to be filed here. And for those that wonder, just a teachable moment here for a minute, these amicus briefs, Friends of the Court.

52:10Very important. It was very important where parties, they're not from the parties, but they're from, you know, stakeholders in America that want to be heard. It depends on the issue. You know, it could be immigration rights people here for birthright citizenship. It could be people. Yeah, it would be it would be a lot of that. And other people that are opposing it, you know, the Chamber of Commerce. It'll be some hump side that will take the opposite side and file. And a lot of times, a very compelling amicus with great research or data will find its way into a majority opinion or a concurrence or a dissent.

52:47Sometimes, we saw it last term, out of the blue, the Supreme Court will say, we want to hear from one of the amicus brief sponsors. And they're arguing at oral argument, even though they're not parties to the case. So we'll have to see who they allow to file amicus briefs. There usually will be a pile of them. And then there'll be after full briefing and maybe some additional briefing that the Supreme Court asked for. It depends how they frame the issue. And that's very important because we usually know where their heads are at in terms of the votes based on the question that's being asked, the issue presented by the court is framed.

53:23then they'll want to know like we just saw recently they just framed an issue and one of the issues they want to have does a federal judge have the ability to reinstate someone who's been fired from a federal officer job i'm like oh here we go now they're going to say the federal judges don't have the power to reinstate the lisa cooks of the world or others even though in every other context employment context of course they would but here's oh second you know Article two powers are being, God forbid we impede articles. They don't give a crap, the Supreme Court, about the Congress being treated like a doormat by the president, willingly, complicitly.

54:01I'm talking about the, they don't care about that. They don't care about the judges having their rights trampled on and not being supported and being abused by Donald Trump. But God forbid we step on the toes of article two power of the president, right? Right. Yeah. And, you know, I wanted to just really kind of quickly on the birthright citizenship thing. I just wanted to share with our viewers kind of we all we all know it's grounded in racism and white Christian nationalism. That's the whole animus right towards people that are just, quote, others, because that's really kind of the framework within which these these executive orders are being done.

54:41But, you know, Mike, I wanted to say this at Sauer in his petitions. And he says the following, which really bothers me. He says the government has a compelling interest in ensuring that American citizenship, the privilege that allows us to choose our political leaders, is granted only to those who are lawfully entitled to it. The lower court's decisions invalidated a policy of prime importance to the president and his administration in a manner that undermines our border security, end quote. So let's unpack that for just a second. Number one, the president and his administration, it's not really his administration, right?

55:24It's ours. This is supposed to be somebody who's supposed to be representing the country, not just a select group of people. And the fact that Sauer is framing it in a voting context, we should just dispense with the falsities and the lies that you have people that are not U.S. citizens that are voting. We know that those allegations of voter fraud, that there are very, very, very tiny, tiny, tiny examples of that happening, one. And two, the fact that they also are framing this in the context of border security, it's once again feeding into this bigger picture mission statement of immigration for this Trump term 2.0.

56:03And so when he writes this, it just makes my skin crawl because it's a total declaration of racism. It's this idea that you don't deserve to be here. And for somebody like Sauer, Trump and others that clearly are children of immigrants making this statement just fucking bothers me. But sorry about that. I had to digress for a hot second, Mike. I'm sorry. This is a birth. There's maybe because of where your people and my people came from. It may be because my people came over. My great grandfather came over through Ellis Island on a boat. And instead of being sent into a concentration or detention camp, he came through a naturalization center where he came out the other side with a green card and then U.S.

56:48citizenship and was a proud American. My grandfather is an eight-year-old with his uncles, came over without his mother on a boat from Europe and went through a naturalization process and was a proud American. My father was born here. My mother was born here. I don't know your family background. Your parents were born abroad, right? They were born in Korea, in South Korea. And I was born here in the United States, you know, and we want to have people that come from different places to be able to be here. That's what makes it so great. And so for this to be the pursuit of the just to ethnically cleanse this country to only be of a certain ilk or a certain type of color or whatever, it's just so, so disgusting to me.

57:37Right. I mean, listen, you see it today. We just had reporting that they picked up the superintendent of is it Spokane, Washington, who's been in this country for like 20 years. He's the superintendent of schools. They picked him up because they said he stayed over on a student visa. And now they took him away in chains, a black man. You and I know the former superintendent of Miami, who's out in L.A., who's very public. He's so good. He's very public that he came here illegally. Yeah. Originally. I don't know what his current status is. I don't mean to out of here, but. No, no, no. But he speaks very publicly about it.

58:13To your point, though, these are people that, and by the way, I'm not all superintendents because that Oklahoma superintendent guy, that crazy guy, no, no, no, no, no. Mr. I need a turning point chapter in every classroom. Mr. I was, you know, showing porn in a board of education meeting. Yeah, that guy. But no, which of school superintendents that are investing in our children's futures and they're some menace to society? It's just a lot of it is just, again, if people will speak bluntly with with friends and family and colleagues and others about what is really going on here, it's an inescapable truth.

58:49And people try to whitewash it. No pun intended. Maybe pun intended, but you got to speak bluntly about this. I mean, look, I still have, you know, the Supreme Court is so whacked and the MAGA six are so whacked. I just don't think they're going to allow by executive order Donald Trump to change the clear meaning of the 14th Amendment as interpreted by a 19-0 whatever it is, 1901 case. I just don't see them allowing. If the states want to change this, if we want to do a constitutional amendment to change it, to change the 14th Amendment, so be it. But Donald Trump with an executive order to change the interpretation of the plain language of the 14th Amendment, even with this Supreme Court, I think that's a bridge too far.

59:37And they don't have to take it. That's the thing. This court doesn't have to take it. And if it doesn't take this case, the Supreme Court doesn't take this case, then those existing orders. Three blocks. That's right. It's okay. Meaning the 14th Amendment stands. So we got to see what happens. So glad to have you here sitting in for Ben, myself, for those joining in late. or coming in late or in progress. Katie Fang of the Katie Fang News Channel. You can catch her work on a sister channel to Legal AF, Katie Fang News, also on the Midas Touch Network and all her great work. What's your sub stack?

1:00:10Go ahead, Katie Fang, right? At Katie Fang, yeah. I mean, it does have another kind of quasi-title law and disorder, but yeah, you just really at Katie Fang. Yeah, and then Katie and I do a lot of work together. Once a week, we do a Legal AF sub stack live and a live on her channel to kind of catch everybody up at the moment and that kind of immediacy that we like to do. And Substack has turned out to be a tremendous platform for people that want to support what you and I both do in independent media. Come over to Legal AF Substack. We were up to about 85 ,000 subscribers in a relatively short amount of time, and it's all because of you.

1:00:46I'm making sure we curate some great content there, including two lives that I do a day and other work and other writings and things and analysis, but it's all because of you. That's a way to support. If you can swing a paid membership, all the better in this trying times against independent media. Now's the time we need your support. Legal AF, the podcast, which you're on right now, of course, exists in two places. Legal AF, the YouTube version, which you're on right now with us, on Midas Touch, of course. But some people don't realize we're on audio. So pick us up on audio podcast platforms of your choice, including on Apple and Spotify.

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1:01:57We like these products. We use these products. And let me just make this clear, because today, I think you have to say it out loud. They do not influence any content that is on Legal AF or on the Midas Touch Network at all. And if they ever did, and if they ever told us, hey, can you tone it down about the this or the that, that would be the last day that sponsor would be on the air with us. And we have dropped a sponsor. You can go back in time and figure out which one that is. So we just, you know, have to align with our values. Go back and look at 3 ,000 videos. You'll be able to tell. But here's a break.

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1:05:14Go to liquidiv.com and get 20 % off your first order with code LEGALAF at checkout. That's 20 % off your first order with code LEGALAF at liquidiv.com. Welcome back. You're on LEGALAF, and I'm joined with Katie Fang, sitting in for Ben Misalas, who's, for a good reason, is doing something amazing with his family today. Katie was kind enough to step in. Katie and I like working. When it's me, it's K-pop, right? But with Ben, what do you guys do? Can't be. He calls me Popak, and I call him Ben. Come on. We like K-pop. And K-pop appears on Substack Lives. And for those that don't know, Katie and I have got almost a 20-year friendship, have nothing to do with the media.

1:06:00We were both just practicing lawyers. I met Katie at a fundraiser for a judge. We stayed friends. We coached each other through respective things in our careers. And then when Katie went off first into media, I was very, very proud and supportive and stayed in touch. And then she ended up on MSNBC, as everybody knows, with the Katie Fang Show. which I'm very supportive of. Whenever I saw a billboard in New York when I was living there, I would take photos. Katie, you're on a bus. Then that happened. And then I founded Legal AF along with Ben five years ago. We put the show together. So I sort of got into this world of the media.

1:06:40And then worlds collided. And Katie came over to Midas Touch. We both live in Miami. And so we're going to try to do some things together. We're going to be hosting. Actually, we can plug it now. Oh, yeah. In November, we're going to be co-hosting, and we're going to do a live feed of a fundraiser for the Miami Democrats at the Improv. November 16th. Sunday, November 16th. Yes. At the Improv with comedians, sort of in the wake of Jimmy Kimmel. I don't know if we're going to get Jimmy, but I don't know, Katie. Never know. We never know. But we're going to do a fundraiser for the Democrats because there is a way to turn in this sort of sea of red.

1:07:18there are some seats that could be turned blue and we're going to work hard to try to do that. So we're going to be on stage and hosting that. And you guys will be able to see that because we're going to do a live feed, which will be a lot of fun. Amazing. All right. Let's talk about First Amendment on that transition. That was pretty good. That was pretty skillful, my friend. So First Amendment, Donald Trump always wanted to crush the First Amendment expression of those who opposed him. He just didn't have the storyline and the narrative that he needed and the false flag that he needed until Charlie Kirk's untimely death.

1:07:55Okay, period. And that has now been used, all the executive orders to go after ANTIFA, to go after domestic terrorist organizations, look at his smile on his face, domestic terrorist organizations, which is a code word for Democratic institutions, civil liberties group, immigration rights group, the George Soros's of the world, the George Soros boogeyman is back. George Soros takes billions of dollars from his foundation and has been funding progressive causes for the last 30 years. Oh, no, he's giving money to this and they're terrorists and that and they're terrorists. That's all based on a report of somebody who wrote it for a conservative think tank supported by the Heritage Foundation, just to be clear, who he himself, the person who wrote the report that they're basing the executive orders on, is on the Southern Poverty Clinic's watch list as being a member of hate groups because he's anti-Muslim and has made films that are virulently anti-Muslim.

1:09:00So this This is the source code for Donald Trump's executive orders, folks, going back to the Heritage Foundation and people who are racist. No surprise there. So First Amendment under attack. Now, my opinion, and I want to hear especially from you, given your background, is that if there is a pendulum anymore with Donald Trump, he swung it way too far. He ended up, instead of martyring Charlie Kirk, he martyred Jimmy Kimmel. Right? Right. And because Jimmy Kimmel is no longer just Jimmy Kimmel. Not only is he now linked forever in history with the death of Charlie Kirk, but he becomes a symbol and a lightning rod to gather together all of the civil liberties, First Amendment and progressive groups who say hashtag me too or not me too.

1:09:50And then we saw what happened when the public responds, right? We saw what happens when ABC found out that people could cut their Hulu and Hollywood actors and producers and agents may not want to work with ABC and Disney anymore. Suddenly like, oh, Jimmy's back on the air. Okay. So talk about it from your perspective, having been off the air. And then you also have a vibrant practice that represents journalists who have been crushed by corporate media. So you can sort of tie all that together. Yeah. So, you know, it's interesting because obviously my departure from MSNBC, mainstream media, traditional legacy media, however you want to frame it.

1:10:27I mean, it was not clearly it wasn't linked to the Charlie Kirk stuff because I left MS as of May 1st. But it was linked to this idea of having corporate oligarchs and corporate overlords that were overly concerned about your tone and about your content. And it really was a direct result of after Trump taking office, the FCC chair, Brendan Carr, as y 'all will remember, he was sending threatening letters to NBC, ABC, CBS, the parent companies, Comcast, Paramount, etc., Disney. saying, look, you know, I need to know all of the details about your DEI policies. I need to know everything about your woke policies and programs.

1:11:13I mean, he made it very clear that he was going to do stuff like he just did in that CBS Paramount settlement, where not only was it, you know, the 15, 16 million dollars. But if you'll recall, for that merger between Skydance and Paramount, Now there's a ombudsman, a monitor that looks at the programming to make sure that it's, quote, fair. And we all know what that means. Right. And now we're also hearing word and in media in that space that Barry Weiss, Barry Weiss might be coming in to run CBS's new stuff. Right. Which is outrageous. Right. So for me to be able to be an independent media like we are here.

1:11:53and it kind of deals with what we talked about a few minutes ago, which is we have to speak unabashedly and frame things in the truth. And part of that is saying the hard things out loud, talking about these executive orders and saying that it is in the pursuit of cleansing this country of minorities. I could not have gotten away with saying that if I was on mainstream media, Mike. I would have gotten in a lot of trouble. I was already getting into trouble with some of the stuff I was saying about convicted felon Donald Trump. And so this idea that Charlie Kirk's death became this lightning rod wherein it's not cancel culture because it's not even a fair characterization.

1:12:35They wanted to martyr the death of Charlie Kirk and revere him for his pursuit of, quote, free speech. And yet when people express their ideas and opinions and thoughts about it, they were fired. They lost their shows. They were punished in some way. And that's why for years I was friends and I'm friends with a woman named Karen Atiyah. And she's one of the most talented people. Y 'all may remember her because she was lifted up in ways by the Washington Post for the work she was been doing there until she was just wrongfully terminated two weeks ago when she spoke out about jamal khashoggi's murder and people were washington was a washington post reporter the what exactly it was chopped up in little pieces by the crown prince of of of um saudi arabia yeah you know jared kushner Donald Trump's besties, right?

1:13:36Live golf, right? I mean, so when Karen spoke out about these things, because Jamal was one of her very close friends, you know, the Washington Post elevated her profile. And just two weeks ago, literally right after Charlie Kirk died, she expressed her opinion as an opinion writer for the Post, saying a few things. One, let's not ignore the facts and the statistics and the evidence that shows that it's white male shooters, far right male shooters, white, that are the predominant ones that are doing all of the killing and the harm. And she also said, why do I have to do performative grief if I don't agree with the martyring that you are doing of somebody like Charlie?

1:14:24Well, isn't that the point? What I said, and I think I got it right, but this is my own commentary. It's one thing to give a safe space to those in our society, not you and me, not our audience generally, that see Charlie Kirk as a fallen hero and let them grieve. It's another to oppose his martyrdom. And not to say I oppose it. Like, you get fired for opposing it, right? Exactly. And that's the point. I don't I am not you can have your grief, but I am not going to allow you to venerate and create a martyr out of somebody that when you look at his body of work does not register as a saint is what I'm trying to say.

1:15:11And that's what Karen said. Karen posted on Blue Sky. She's like, do I need to rend? Do I need to rip my clothes like in the Bible? Right. Rend my clothes and smear ashes on my face to grieve for a man who was not only one of the most polarizing figures in our American society, but also trafficked in hate. Why would I have to do that? Right. And I'm just paraphrasing what she said. In fact, I added more than what she actually said. There was a zero, zero drama with the Post. And then literally a few hours later, she gets an email from the Washington Post stating you're fired. Was it was it on Jeff Bezos letterhead from the yacht of Jeff Bezos?

1:15:52Washington Post. So, Karen, you know, I'm so proud to represent her. I do it with democracy defenders, Norm Eisen, who, by the way, also we democracy defenders, Norm Eisen, we're working on behalf of Barbara, who's one of those birthright citizenship cases that's up that they're trying to get up in front of the Supreme Court. But anyway, you know, representing Karen Atiyah against the Washington Post is one of the most proud moments that I've had as a lawyer and also post leaving, right, leaving mainstream media. Because it's this idea of protecting the independence of our fourth estate, especially, especially because remember, she was the last black female opinion writer full time at the Washington Post.

1:16:37They don't have any more, Mike. I mean, I'll say it since you're not going to. Everybody that got canned from MSNBC was a person of color. There are some coincidences, aren't there? Why is it only the Asian and Black people that ended up being shown the door? I just don't, I mean, I said it at the time. Listen, I will say this. It's almost like it's, well, they're all kind of intertwined, right? Inescapably intertwined. Here's the thing. You know, we have, I have allies like you and others, right, that are not people of color. But I will say this, communities of color, people of color, traditionally and historically have had to fight so much harder.

1:17:22And so for us, there is something so valuable about having not only a seat at that proverbial table, but being able to speak in our own truths based upon our lived experiences. And so for a lot of us, when we see what Trump was doing, when we see what this administration was doing, when we saw what was coming down the pipeline, it just made sense to ring the alarm in a way that was also coming again from where we have had our lived experiences from our own specific communities. I think it's more about tone, about attitude, about forcefulness, urgency, exigency of messaging. And that really coincided, I guess.

1:18:05And again, that was the coincidence of who we were, you know, our backgrounds, our races, et cetera. But anyway, at this point, I just want to say that the assailing of our First Amendment is not just limited to people in the press. It's obviously comedians like Jimmy Kimmel, private citizens that have been, you know, outed and doxed because they just dared to say something about the death of Charlie Kirk in a way that didn't sit well with conservatives. And I agree with you when you've got Ben Shapiro, Megyn Kelly, Rand Paul and Ted Cruz speaking out about this and warning Republicans, Brendan Carr, etc., that you do this now.

1:18:46You better watch out because you're going to be on the receiving end of this canceling later on. Absolutely. I mean, in some ways, just to sort of wrap it up here, in some ways, the Democrats, I just saw an article in the Times about, or another thing that I read about, Democrats trying to change their tone. And it's not your grandfather's Democratic Party anymore. And we're getting coarser and more. I'm like, okay, stop. I think, yes, we have to work on our messaging. I think we have to be more pugilistic. I think we have to be more aggressive in both the expression of our thoughts and in our participation in the marketplace of ideas.

1:19:25So that we can, let's be frank, so that we can ultimately win on the First Amendment expression that we're talking about or the representation. And thank you for doing that and representing people like that. We have to stop rending our clothes and wringing our hands about, oh, we lost again at the Supreme Court. Oh, it's another case where there's not going to be a bipartisan, nonpartisan regulatory body anymore. Well, then F it. Then take the gift. Then take those rules and those new precedents. And when we inevitably get the presidency back in 2028 and starting at the midterms, then we fire every Republican on site and every regulatory body.

1:20:12I mean, that's just that's the cards we've been done since I throwing the cards back. Take the cards. Play the hand you've been dealt. And I mean, would I like to have all nonpartisan regulatory bodies out there regulating the Securities and Exchange Commission? Yes, but that has been destroyed by the Supreme Court. Now run with it. That's what we got to start doing as Democrats, which is stop wringing our hands and crying over it and say, you know what? There's a gift here. We just have to do it. I know people are like, no, we're above that. We got to go high when they go low. Forget high and low.

1:20:49Rubber meets the road, okay? It's in the middle. We got to just, that's it. What do you think about that? It's time to play hardball. It's time to play hardball. We know this as litigators, right? There is a progression, at least in my cases, as a trial lawyer, as a litigator, where at first, right, we get along. I don't need to be, you know, adverse and adversarial with you, even though, you know, we're on other sides. But there does come a point in time when you've got to play hardball. When I'm looking for something or I'm advocating on behalf of a client or a party like the Democrats. And if you're not going to like, what is this hand wringing?

1:21:27Oh, he won't meet with us. He won't. The fuck you need to meet with this guy then? Shut the damn government down next week. Like these are the things that I don't understand. And I feel like. Cover your ears. He's joined Legal AF. Sorry. I'm sorry. But you know what, though? I will say this. I am comfortable in the authenticity of who I am. And I said this when I did an Instagram reel the other day about the Comey indictment. You may not like my language, but you better appreciate my message because that's what we have to do. We have to get the authenticity of our people, what they're doing for us in places like D.C.

1:22:02But when it comes to this, why are we always in good faith trying to negotiate with the other side when they're showing they don't know what bad faith is? They don't know what good faith is. Their default is bad faith. So in my mind, OK, to your point, this is what we have to deal with. this is what we do as trial lawyers this is what we do as litigators we have to pivot on the spot based upon a bad ruling from a judge judge is going to strike that that doesn't come in you think we're going to sit there and wring our hands be like judge i gotta take i gotta take a moment no you poker face it and you pivot and i'm not understanding why this is so hard to do for well i you'll you'll appreciate that when i was training my lawyers as trial lawyers and i was in house council, I told them, look, this is very simple.

1:22:45This is our mantra. We are not going to be the first side to bring this case or this matter into the gutter. But if we get dragged into the gutter, by God, we're going to brass knuckle our way out. You understand? Damn straight. Ethically. Yes, ethically. We're not going to Lindsey Halligan our way out of it. That was our missing. Not, you know, oh, you always have to. No, no. But I'm glad. Listen, I really appreciate what you bring both to the Mind of Such Network through your own channel, through your appearances here, through the work that you and I do together. And, you know, I appreciate you as a human being, one of my favorite human beings and as a person and all of that.

1:23:26Katie Fang has joined the Legal AF for Saturday, at least sitting in for Ben Micellis. We've reached the end of another episode. So many ways, as you know, to support us. Podcasts, download us on Apple and Spotify. leave reviews, watch us, go back and forth between the two, support everything that you can find that Katie Fang is involved with. And our side, Legal AF, the YouTube, Legal AF, the Substack. These are all ways when people are saying, how can I make sure that you guys, you know, you're so important to me. What can I do to help? That's how you help, to be frank. And then we'll do our part, which we do 24-7 as far as we can see.

1:24:05But Katie, so great to have you here. And I can't wait to do more work with you. So grateful to you and to all of you that are tuning in. Thank you for accepting me and thank you for the community. I appreciate it. Absolutely. Shout out to the Midas Mighty and the Legal AFers.

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