The Intersection with Michael Popok Full Episode - 11/25/2025

25:41Now we know from other reporting

25:46Michael Popok:that the files are worse for Donald Trump than originally thought. That a David Shuster reporter has said that the MAGA right wing was briefed by the Department of Justice itself and that the takeaway was the files are worse for Donald Trump than first reported. We knew that. and Judge Chutkin actually cites in her order. And all these orders that I'm going to talk about today are up on Legal AF Substack for you to review under filings AF.

26:17The judge said, effectively, Pam Bondi, you made this of great public concern and importance. And therefore, based on you flip-flopping, because in February, when the administration first got in, you said you were going to release all the files They were sitting on your desk. And then four months later, you said in a closeout memo, there's nothing to see here. There's no crimes. There's no client list. We're closing the file.

26:43Michael Popok:And then you go off and say you're opening up an active investigation. You've made this of public interest under FOIA to force their production. Let's look at Pam Bondi. This was referred to by Judge Chutkin in her order, talking about it in a couple of different clips, one in which she states and one in which she tries to weasel her way around it about the file being on her desk. Let's play the clip. The DOJ may be releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients. Will that really happen? It's sitting on my desk right now to review. That's been a directive by President Trump. I'm reviewing that.

27:22I'm reviewing JFK files, MLK files. That's all in the process of being reviewed because that was done at the directive of the president from all of these agencies. First to back up on that in February, I did an interview on Fox and it's been getting a lot of attention because I said I was asked a question about the client list. And my response was it's sitting on my desk to be reviewed, meaning the file along with the JFK MLK files as well. That's what I meant by that.

27:55Michael Popok:We also know a judge Chutkin referred to this as a fact, which is that the Department of Justice and the FBI reviewed all the files in March, led by the FBI, that by May she had briefed the president and that he knew his name was all over the files. That's why the communication between Epstein and Trump becomes part of the FOIA records that need to be produced. Now, what's going to happen? There's going to be an appeal by the Trump administration to the D.C. Court of Appeals. Then they're going to try to take a fast track to the United States Supreme Court. I'm just not sure that the United States Supreme Court is that keen on weighing in on the Epstein child sex trafficking cover-up.

28:49I mean, they didn't grant the appeal for Ghislaine Maxwell. They've had other victims that they've supported in the past. We'll have to see where the Supreme Court is, but you got to hand it to Judge Chutkin to make that ruling today. It's another avenue for us to get a hold of the Epstein-Trump communication. We're going to talk about Judge Boesberg and the revival of the criminal contempt case against the Department of Justice. Erez Riveni, the whistleblower. Emil Bovee, a Third Circuit Court of Appeal judge. Is this judge going to find that Emil Bovee, who now sits on the Third Circuit, committed criminal contempt?

29:33He might. And you're going to want to be here to hear about it. Eric Swalwell's new suit against Bill Pulte and what it means for people like Adam Schiff and Letitia James. And then we're going to talk about Joe Schnitt suing to get his job back because he got caught in a honeypot undercover operation and told the truth about the Epstein cover-up within the Trump administration. But first, there's a lot of different ways to support what we do on The Intersection. You've already moved us up. We're in the top 50 now of all YouTube podcasts, The Intersection. And that's a, you know, I get goosebumps talking about it.

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31:26That's the place to go. I just got through with 11 attorneys general interviews last week, and two panels are going to be going up over the next couple of days leading into Thanksgiving. You're not going to want to miss it. My interviews with five or actually 10 total attorneys general, Democratic attorneys general, and you're going to be shocked and amazed and happy about what you hear during those interviews. And now we got a word from our pro-democracy sponsors.

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34:57Michael Popok:Their sweat sets are insanely comfortable, and that tank top, total hit. Super easy to dress up or down. So skip the stress and the overpriced designer stuff this year. Give comfort, give confidence, give True Classic. You can find them at Amazon, Target, Costco, and Sam's Club, or head to trueclassic.com slash legal AF to shop the perfect gifts for everyone on your list. Welcome back to The Intersection. I'm Michael Popak. You're on the Midas Touch Network. All right, moving from Judge Chutkin's order to force the release of all Epstein and Trump communication. Let's move to the revival of Judge Boesberg's criminal contempt probable cause hearing.

35:43Michael Popok:You might have forgotten this one. In April, Judge Boesberg entered an order finding probable cause that the Trump administration committed criminal contempt in his courtroom by flouting his orders in contumacious behavior, violating his order. he said of the 200 people on planes who were Venezuelans being sent to El Salvador and the torture prisons of El Salvador he ordered them he ordered the planes grounded he ordered the flights turned around none of that happened we now know why because there's a 35-page whistleblower complaint by Erez Ruveni who had spent 15 years in the Department of Justice and he said that Emil Bovee, who was the number three in the Department of Justice, previous to that, Donald Trump's criminal defense lawyer, he ordered effectively all of the lawyers to go tell federal judges to go F off, literally F off.

36:49Michael Popok:And when I read that in the whistleblower disclosure by Eris Reveni, as Emil Bovey was being confirmed to be a Third Circuit Court of Appeal judge sitting in Philadelphia, I said there's going to be, at the time, I said there's going to be two judges that are going to be very interested in Eris Reveni. One is Judge Boesberg, and the other is Judge Zinnis in Maryland, who presides over the Abrego Garcia case, because it explains a lot that the Trump administration Department of Justice literally told lawyers to go tell federal judges to go F off and that they would not turn planes around and they would not allow any due process of people who were removed under the Alien Enemies Act.

37:35Michael Popok:So I was not shocked when I read that after the appellate court finally let Judge Boesberg restart his criminal contempt case, because what happened between April and now, long time, is it was caught up in the morass of appeals. Appeals are over. And they sided ultimately with Judge Bozberg. And they said, OK, do your fact finding, restart your contempt proceeding. And he's trying to get to the bottom of why and who and how and what they knew and when they knew about his order to ground the planes and not fly to El Salvador and why they were violated. Now, later, his order was vacated by the United States Supreme Court, but that doesn't matter because at the time, they were valid issued orders of a federal judge.

38:24Michael Popok:And you can't say, well, later on, the Supreme Court overturned it. You have to comply if you're a co-equal branch of government or otherwise, you got to comply with a federal judge's order. So we're back with that. Now, there's some interesting developments there. The judge said out loud last week, as he's putting the case back together again, I want to hear from Erez Reveni. So do we. In fact, I have a clip because Erez Reveni went on 60 Minutes. And here's a clip of, so you know who I'm talking about, of Erez Reveni. Let's play the clip. The Alien Enemies Act allows rapid expulsion from the U.S.

38:58of the citizens of enemy nations during a war. But without a declared war, Trump used it against more than 100 Venezuelans that the government said were terrorists. They were to be denied their right to be heard by a judge. Ruvani says Bovee expected a challenge. Bovee emphasized those planes need to take off no matter what. And then after a pause, he also told all in attendance, And if some court should issue an order preventing that, we may have to consider telling that court, you. And when you heard that, you thought what? Felt like a bomb had gone off. Here is the number three official using expletives to tell career attorneys that we may just have to consider disregarding federal court orders.

39:52Michael Popok:Now, Emil Bovey, who Eris Reveni says told him and others to tell federal judges to go F off and effectively act in contempt. He was asked the question by Adam Schiff, of all people, the senator from California, during his confirmation hearing. And wait till you hear his response to that. Let's play Emil Bovey about whether he told lawyers to tell federal judges to go F off. Let's play the clip. In the complaint, it says, Beauvais stated that DOJ would need to consider telling the courts, fuck you, and ignoring any such court order. Did you say anything of that kind in the meeting? Senator, I have no recollection of saying anything of that kind.

40:37To the extent I usually... Wouldn't you recall, Mr. Beauvais, if you said or suggested during a meeting with Justice Department lawyers, that maybe they should consider telling the court, fuck you? it seems to me that would be something you'd remember unless that's the kind of thing you say frequently. Well, I've certainly said things encouraging litigators at the department to fight hard for valid positions that we have to take in defense of our clients. And have you frequently suggested that they say fuck you and ignore court orders? Is that also something you frequently do such you might not remember doing it on this occasion?

41:10No. And as I explained, I have never directed. So did you or did you not make those comments during that meeting? Which comment, Senator? You really need me to repeat it? Did you suggest, as Mr. Ruvani wrote, that DOJ would need to consider telling the courts, fuck you, and ignore any such court order? I did not suggest that there would be any need to consider ignoring court orders. At the point of that meeting, there were no court orders to discuss. Well, did you suggest telling the courts, fuck you, in any manner? I don't recall. You just don't remember that. Now, I had the fortune, I had the pleasure of having Lee Galert, the lead lawyer for the American Civil Liberties Union, in this very case, just with me just yesterday with an interview about the case.

42:02Michael Popok:and right after the interview, he's playing a little coy with me. I was wondering why, because right after the interview, he filed with the federal judge, Bozberg, a list of people that he suggests that the judge interview and cross-examine. Emil Bovi was up there. So now you got the, think of the optics. You got a district court judge, chief judge of the D.C. District Court, who the Trump administration hates. They say he coddles terrorists. He's partisan. He's a Republican, by the way. They don't like him because he's the one when he was the chief, as chief judge, he sits over the grand juries.

42:41Michael Popok:He authorized all those search warrants on the Verizon accounts of the senators and the congresspeople who were caught up in the Jan 6th insurrection. So he's got a lot of crosshairs on him. He doesn't care. He's doing his job. And I asked Lee about the case and about this upcoming hearing. And here's a clip from the lead lawyer for the ACLU in the very case that I'm talking about, Lee Galert. Let's play it. Tell us about how Judge Boesberg actually said those two words, Eris Riveni, you know, is like Kaiser Sozi moment in your hearing. Yeah. I mean, the whole thing is extraordinary, surreal. I mean, I've been doing this a long time.

43:26You've been doing it a long time. I mean, this is sort of mind boggling what's going on. But he came in in the hearing on the 19th, just recently after the court of appeals said, you can go ahead, Judge Boesberg. And one of the first things he said is there's been this whistleblower complaint by Mr. Ruvaney. We're going to have to have him as a witness. And, you know, I think that's right. And his complaint names other officials very specifically. So I think Judge Boeser is saying, look, let's find out what's going on. They told me that they thought my order didn't apply. Let's really find out what's going on.

44:03And was there this meeting where they're going to say F you to the courts? But he absolutely has mentioned Mr. Ravaney specifically. And I think his intention right now is to put him on the stand.

44:15Michael Popok:I would assume the other half of that equation is somebody like Drew Ensign. who's in the letter, the whistleblower letter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, you know, and he was the original lawyer on that emergency Saturday night hearing when the order was issued. So I suspect he will be on Judge Boesberg's mind and a number of other people. But I think also Judge Boesberg wants to know who else was involved because at this point, the whistleblower complaint, I don't think names everyone or names titles and maybe the whistleblower, Mr. Vaney, doesn't actually know who all the people involved were who made the ultimate decision.

44:55So I think there's a lot of fact-finding going on. And as you know, this issue transcends any particular substantive issue. I mean, if we can't count on the United States Department of Justice adhering to court orders, that's a whole other world we're in.

45:11Michael Popok:So what's going to happen? I mean, I think Boesburg is going to do his best job of fact-finding. I think the Trump administration is going to refuse to participate in the play in the sandbox. I think they're going to try to take an appeal to the D.C. Circuit Court again, if they can, and try to get that blocked. And they're going to go up to the United States Supreme Court, and they're going to argue that Bozberg's not being nice to them, that the Supreme Court already overturned the underlying order, so they shouldn't be held accountable in contempt because they because they refuse to comply with an unconstitutional order.

45:48Michael Popok:And we're going to see what the United States Supreme Court does. They rarely back federal judges these days. Maybe Judge Bozberg's different, although I doubt it, even though he's friends with Roberts, and I think he was a roommate, I think, for Justice Kavanaugh in law school. But it's important. and the specter of seeing Donald Trump trying to hide somebody who's unethical like Emil Bovee. And he got him confirmed to the Third Circuit Court of Appeals and have him now dragged back and have to testify potentially in a federal court about whether he is one of the people that's in criminal contempt.

46:30I mean, it's just sweet justice, don't you think?

46:34Michael Popok:Let me move to Eric Swalwell, friend of the show, friend of the podcast, friend of Mindest Touch. And he's had it. And I appreciate it. And now on the heels of Letitia James and James Comey's indictments being dismissed, we know how the Letitia James case came to be. it's a conspiracy between bill pulte the head of freddie may and fanny mack pam bondy ed martin in the department of justice head of the weaponization committee apparently and effectively uh donald trump all conspiring against these people pulte goes and slaps together a cut and paste of some mortgage documents which should be really private and not public there's no fraud investigation going on at Freddie May and Fannie Mac against Adam Schiff or Lisa Cook on the Federal Reserve or Letitia James but he suggests that there is right he he puts shade on them then he puts up selective parts of signature blocks signature lines but leaves out the rest of the document leaves out documents that conflict with his argument that mortgage fraud was committed because there's too many primary residents or she wasn't supposed to rent out the house or, you know, he lives in California.

47:53Michael Popok:Why does he have a house in Maryland? You know, all sorts of stupid shit. That's not a crime. And Eric Swalwell got caught up in all that. He decided to sue. And I think it's a great move. Just like Michael Wolff is suing Melania Trump in New York for a declaration that what he has said and what he has done and what he's reported is not a defamation against her after he got a demand letter for a billion dollars. swalwell cut off bill pulte at the past at the past and filed a suit you know including for defamation uh and for improper you know violation of other laws related to his private mortgage documents and i think that's and to stop the investigation from going on i like that approach i like to get eric swalwell on the show here on the intersection we can talk more about it That's what you got to do to a bully.

48:51Michael Popok:You got to go up to a bully, punch him in the face and take his lunch money. And that's what the Democrats are starting to do. Has anybody noticed the incredible shrinking president that I've been talking about for the last nine months? He's now about three foot tall. And he goes to Betty, he goes to Betty by with his baba very early. They call LID on their day like really early. When Joe Biden used to do that, he said, oh, Joe Biden. octogenarian can't keep up is anybody home what about what about trump anybody see him kind of fall out of marine one and kind of trudge along four o 'clock in the afternoon trudge along the white white house lawn oh god you would have thought he was chopping wood all day or working in a coal mine instead of playing golf at mar-a-lago pulls his hat down yeah he looks gassed He looks fatigued.

49:50It's tiresome to lose your grip on power. The narrative has changed. The sand has shifted under his feet. People hate his economy. People hate his immigration policy. People hate the way he trolls the poor. They hate a heartless president. They hate him. And he has not come to grips with it yet. and he thinks he has all these kind of superpowers but MAGA is about to implode it's not just Marjorie Taylor Greene there's going to be half a dozen congresspeople who are going to be heading for the exit and those seats can be a potential a potential bonanza for Democrats and hear that flipping sound that's the sound of seats being flipped we've got special elections two or three of them coming up the next three or four months.

50:47Democrat, Democrat, Democrat. Some of these places are like deep in the red, like Marjorie Taylor Greene, but you never know what's going to happen in special elections. You don't know who's going to show up. It's not your typical voter. It's somebody that's motivated. It's somebody that's angry. It's somebody that wants to pay back Donald Trump. Who does that sound like? Independents and Democrats. That's who show up in special elections and want to be heard. Three more coming. Those go Democrat or anywhere, or the majority of them. And that lead in the Senate drops to two or three for MAGA. We haven't even gotten to the midterms yet.

51:24Gets down below three. And MAGA Mike Johnson, who's likely to lose his gavel, he's going to have to continue to caucus with Hakeem Jeffries and get the Democrats to vote with him because he won't have enough votes. And Republicans are now coming forward.

51:40Michael Popok:There's a new report that came out, and the Republicans are saying morale is terrible. They're tired of being whipped by Trump and the White House, that they are smug, the White House, that they look down and patronize the elected officials in the House. and they blame Mike Johnson for having them get beat up regularly by Donald Trump. And they're rebelling. That's a good thing. This is the implosion that we've been waiting for. This is the rejection of Donald Trump, not only in the polls. All you got to do is be a political candidate and say, 26 % of independents support Donald Trump. 26%. I got to find a way to triangulate.

52:31Michael Popok:I got to find a way to get away from Donald Trump. when I'm running for election. You know, Donald Trump's, oh, I endorse them, but they're going to win. Forget it. We want Donald Trump to endorse right now. It's a negative, he has negative brand equity. He has negative goodwill. Yeah. So, the,

52:57Michael Popok:next on the totem pole that we need to talk, the next thing on the list we need to talk about, and I love ending this way, is on Joe Schnitt. Poor sad sack of a Department of Justice senior official in charge of the Witness Protection Program. He wants to be in the Witness Protection Program now. In September, he started communicating and DMing with somebody on the Hinge dating app. Somebody named Skylar, except that wasn't her real name. and they started setting up a little drink, a little meeting, a little coffee. He thought it was a romantic pursuit. Skyler worked for James O 'Keefe of Project Veritas.

53:44Michael Popok:She also worked for Turning Point. She was there as an undercover operative. And the conversation, because it was all in the news, turned to Epstein. And Joe Schnitt committed a Freudian slip in Washington. He accidentally told the truth about the cover-up, about they're going to cover up the names of all the Republicans and of Donald Trump and then question how Ghislaine Maxwell, a convicted child sex trafficker, could get a low-security prison where she could prey on young women in prison. We have the clip. Let's play the clip. Those files do exist. Yeah, thousands and thousands of pages for five minutes.

54:25They'll redact them. Every Republican or conservative person in those files, leave all the liberal, Democratic people in those files. And you think they visited that Maxwell person? Yeah. And also involved? She got transferred to a minimum security prison, too recently, which is against BOP policy because she's a convicted sex criminal. They're offering her something to keep it on show. What do you do for working at? Work for the Department of Justice. Okay. And they're like 23 years. I'm an analyst. I'll be acting deputy chief in our office for a few months starting next week. I work closely with like all the federal law enforcement agencies, the U.S.

55:07attorney's offices, the prosecutors and stuff. The thing is, it's what you're saying, because I do deal with so many of the agencies, like the people of prisons, the marshal service, the U.S. attorney's offices.

55:20Michael Popok:And from that, he got fired. Okay. First, he had a publicly, it was like a public flagellation. He tarred and feathered himself. He wrote a text to his boss. I didn't know. I didn't use my real name. I said I was an analyst. It was my own opinion. I don't know anything. And then the Department of Justice with some unnamed, unknown spokesperson. DOJ Spock's 4357 handle. Like a troll. said, he has no knowledge. He has no information. And then they fired him. I mean, and now he's suing to get his job back. I don't blame him. Of course they sue. He's suing to get his job back. And again, Donald Trump cut his nose to spite his face.

56:12Michael Popok:Because Donald Trump put out of business something called the Merit Systems Protection Board, along with the National Labor Relations Board, along with the Office of Special Counsel. You put them all together. That's what Congress created in order to protect federal workers. But Donald Trump put them all out of business. As I said, as I said, he would. He never replaced the Democrats after he fired them and the Supreme Court allowed him to do it. They found, oh, no, it impinges on the executive power. Congress can't say who he can hire and fire. They created the agency. But once they created it, it's all in the hands of the president.

56:49Michael Popok:So he fired, you know, the National Labor Relations Board. He fired the Federal Trade Commission head, and he never replaced them. So there is no Merit Systems Protection Board to protect federal workers. So when they have a complaint, they get fired, they have someplace to go. There's no special counsel, special counsel's office to represent them. And there's no National Labor Relations Board for other public unions and union members. And there won't be until 2028 when the Democrats to take back power. So the argument that was raised by Schnitt is, just like Maureen Comey, James Comey's daughter, who's suing to be reinstated in her job as U.S.

57:28attorney in New York, assistant U.S. attorney, Schnitt said, it would be futile for me to file with the Merit Systems Protection Board because there isn't one. There's one person.

57:37Michael Popok:That's not a quorum. And I think he's right. Donald Trump killed the administrative process. We would never have heard about this. This would have been buried in some administrative law judge's dusty courtroom, hearing room somewhere. But because Donald Trump killed the Merit Systems Protection Board, genius, all these people who have grievances represented by law firms that have been created in the last year or two to support victims of Donald Trump, who support people who've been tortured by Donald Trump, they rush into federal court now, as they should. So I wanted to make this sort of on the short side.

58:22People are getting ready for their holidays. I appreciate that. Thanksgiving, as I said at the top of the show, one of my favorites. People ask, Popak, how could we support all that you do? I mean, I do 40 videos a week. I built a channel with the Midas Touch Brothers called Legal AF. I built a podcast called Legal AF. We've got over 70 videos on Legal AF a week. We've got a tremendous group of contributors, from Sidney Blumenthal and Sean Wilentz on Court of History to Democracy Forward and Sky Perryman talking about her cases over 100. We interview the Democratic Attorneys General on a regular basis, all 23 of them.

59:07I just got back from a conference related to them. We've got Court Accountability Action, looking at fraud in the federal court system, where we bring on former judges and elected officials to brief our audience. Shan Wu, the guys from Civil Action. Just a tremendous group. We got the podcasters, like It's Complicated, Asha and Renato. Got Unprecedented with me and Dina Dahl. And The Intersection. Just a really one-stop shopping clearinghouse for all things law and politics. And it's all because of you. And we're going to crack the 1 million subscriber barrier. And people ask me, what does that do?

59:50It's not ego. The bigger we get, the more street cred we get, The higher our ratings on YouTube for podcasts, we're already in the top intersections in the top 50 or so. Legal AF in the top 20. The bigger we get, the more it's easier for me to get guests. It's easier for me to get elected officials and Jamie Raskins of the world and former federal judges and attorneys general and the heads of the American Civil Liberties Union and the head of Democracy Forward to all come on. Got a great new interview that's going up this week with the head of the group that's responsible for defending voting maps, congressional maps.

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