The Intersection with Michael Popok Full Episode - 11/4/2025

31:00And so public interest groups are looking into that. Senator Blumenthal and the Democrats are looking into that. We're going to talk about Judge Immergut. This will tie back to California Attorney General Bonta, who issued an order on preliminary injunction until she issues her permanent injunction by this Friday against Donald Trump's use of the National Guard in Oregon. And while she does that, the shadow of the United States Supreme Court and their ultimate decision on the National Guard will come into play. And then tomorrow, join us on Legal AF. We're doing a live stream of this landmark oral argument about tariffs, about whether Donald Trump's tariffs on every country, on all goods indefinitely, is what the founding fathers envisioned when they created Article I, giving that power to Congress only, and not to the president.

31:55And whether the statute that Trump is relying on, which never mentions the word tariff, somehow implicitly gives him that power. and I'm going to talk about, I'm going to give you a kind of a listener's guide of how to analyze tomorrow's oral argument, because I'll know all I need to know within the first 10 minutes of that oral argument. I'm going to tell you how, about whether they're going to tear down the billions and billions of dollars. I mean, the tariffs, besides this inhumane immigration policy, the hallmark, the framework of the entire Trump administration, domestic and foreign policy, is tariffs.

32:33Yet there's no statutory or constitutional right to do what he did. Now, let's see if the Supreme Court MAGA 6 have the brass ones to make the right ruling and stop him in his tracks from doing this as being a bridge too far. We're going to talk about all of that, and I'll bring back a special guest in Attorney General Rob Bonta on this special election night edition of The Intersection. But first, we're going to take a moment out for our sponsors. Now, look, there's lots of ways to support what I do, the podcast, and things in the Legal AF ecosystem. This podcast, doing great, regularly tops the top 100 in podcasts.

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33:55Bonta and all the other commentators and contributors in that universe that you want to hear from. And that's the way you can help us. And then we've got Legal AF Substack, where I do lives. I just did a great live today with Adam Klassfeld of All Rise News, where we keep you up to date. We give you the actual filings. You can read them yourself from the courts and a lot of other amazing commentary on Legal AF Substack. So come over there and become a member there as well. But now we have a word from our sponsors.

34:21Michael Popok:I love fall. There's something about the fresh air, the cozy vibes, and all the moments it opens up, catching up with friends, family gatherings, and just enjoying the season. Personally, I'm looking forward to weekend walks and those evenings when you can finally break out your favorite layers. With fall in full swing, more moments call for comfort you can count on. That's why I've been living in Mack Weldon this season. Their new Ace line inspired by their best-selling sweatpants combines everyday comfort with long-lasting, confident style. I got a few pieces from the collection, like their half-zips and crewnecks, that are ridiculously soft, easy to layer, and fit perfectly without even trying.

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36:38Michael Popok:It's machine washable, no pilling, no shedding, and it stays flawless after every wash. It's the perfect gift, personal, beautiful, and something people actually use every day. Give the gift of softness this holiday season with Lola Blankets. For a limited time, our listeners are getting a huge 40 % off their entire order at LolaBlankets.com by using code LEGALAF at checkout. Just head to LolaBlankets.com and use code LEGALAF for 40 % off. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them that we sent you. Welcome back to a special election night edition of The Intersection.

37:20Such a special night. And right after, we're going to bring you right over to the Midas Brothers who are holding down and anchoring a special election night in America edition of the Midas Touch Network. I'll be joining them later to talk about how some of these lawsuits and legal cases against the Trump administration have impacted voting. And I'm sure it has as we're starting to see the early returns in. And thank you again for supporting all that we do on Legal AF and here on The Intersection. It's also a special night because, and I can't think of anybody better to do this with me, is my first live guest ever on The Intersection.

37:59And we have Attorney General Rob Bonta of California. Hi, Attorney General Bonta. It is so great to be with you again, Michael. Thanks for having me. And our audience, I know, is already thrilled and excited. Tonight, so much going on that's positive for the Democrats at the polls. You've always talked about crowds, courts and courage. And we're seeing the crowds at the poll and the courage to pull the lever against the Trump administration in states, including maybe you can give us at one point a little bit of an update of how Prop 50 is doing and the redistricting map issue that's on the ballot in California.

38:35But we started tonight's episode, I gave him a preview of the SNAP food stamp cases and laid it out knowing that you'd be joining us. And there's two things that I really want to address with you, along with anything else you'd like to share with our audience. One is we're going to talk about a lot, apparently, about Judge McConnell. because we've got a ruling with Judge McConnell about the SNAP program that came out of a companion case of yours brought by Democracy Forward and some other groups in front of him. And then 24 hours later, you got a leading of the charge. You got a tremendous ruling against the Department of Transportation from the same Judge McConnell, right?

39:20We did. And it was a great order today. It was a final judgment in a case that we brought against the Trump administration, the Department of Transportation for improperly, unlawfully, unconstitutionally trying to impose immigration enforcement conditions on transportation funding, funding that keeps planes in the air, that keeps cars on the road, that helps with our infrastructure, our transportation infrastructure around the country. And they were trying to withhold that funds unless there was a commitment to, by our states, to be engaged in immigration enforcement. And that was found to be unlawful, as we believed it would be and should be.

39:57And today we won a final judgment. So I just want to be clear about that. We won on a summary judgment and a final judgment issued. So this is not a temporary restraining order. This is not a preliminary injunction. It's not a early peak at the merits. It's a final, complete decision on the merits. And certainly the case can be appealed. But we are now, because our cases have moved downfield quite a bit over the last nine months, we're getting to the final stages of some of the cases, past the early emergency relief stage and into the final decision making. And there was some really pointed language in the decision.

40:37It wasn't just a, you know, sort of neutral decision by Judge McConnell. He said that the Trump administration was lawless and that their violation was blatant. And those were really important terms that we picked up on. And, you know, the judges don't always speak like that, but when the shoe fits, the words are used. And we thought those were appropriate words in this case. Yeah, I want our audience to, and we had about 10 ,000 people on with us just watching this live. I want our audience to know more about courageous judges and attorneys general who are fighting the fight every day against the Trump administration and its lawlessness.

41:10And I put right up there Judge McConnell. It's not the first time that we've talked about Judge McConnell. He came out of the box early on with a birthright citizenship case order against the Trump administration. And he's not shy. I did my own analysis of why I thought Judge Talwani in Massachusetts entered her order in your case a certain way and why he, hours later, was like, no, I'm issuing the injunction, start making the payments. I thought, this is my own opinion, I thought Talwani was very concerned about some Supreme Court precedent, especially that happened in her own courthouse with Judge Young, about funding and the Trump administration.

41:47I thought she tried to thread the needle by giving them until Monday to come up with agency action and then she'll consider the TRO. So you were involved with that case. Democracy forward, McConnell, the same guy you just talked about in the Department of Transportation case. He was like, yeah, no, make all the funding. And if you're not entirely funding on Monday, then tell me Wednesday what agency action you're taking and why to make partial funding. But that has to start this week too. And yet they didn't do it there. Before we go back to the transportation case, let's stay on SNAP for a minute, if you can.

42:24And I don't know, I know there's a lot of things you can't, I don't want you to tip off strategy or tactics in such a fast moving case. But what are the attorneys general doing or what have they done? Now they've watched McConnell kind of step out in front with his orders and the new filing with a hearing now scheduled for Thursday as the Trump administration on election night tries to come back with, no, no, ignore Trump's social media posts about not complying and

42:49Michael Popok:not paying. He's going to be paying. How do you interpret all this and what are you doing in your particular case in front of Judge Talwadi? Yeah. And I want to just double click on Judge McConnell, you know, deliberate, thoughtful, thorough, comprehensive, you know, adheres to the facts and the law, of course, and applies it and lets the chips fall where they may. And where the chips fall quite often in the cases in his courtroom are firm decisions against a lawless, law-breaking Trump administration. And he's, as you said, not shy about issuing the order, finding the unlawfulness, the unconstitutionalist, saying if it's blatant, saying if it's lawless and then issuing the decision.

43:33And I appreciate that willingness to just go with the law and the facts taken and not being intimidated, even when the Trump administration tries to intimidate judges, call for impeachment, call them so-called judges, discredit them, undermine them. So I appreciate his approach. And I want to point out that what we're seeing now with Democracy Forward, their case in Rhode Island and the state AG's cases in Massachusetts, is what we've seen all along here, which is we're all part of the same effort, the same ecosystem, the same outcome, which is to defend the rule of law, defend democracy, make sure that this president of the United States is following the law.

44:13And our position has been that we will meet the president at the boundaries of his authority. And we will say, you cannot pass here. You cannot cross this line. You have meets and you have bounds, you have restrictions and you have limits and you can't do the lawless thing. And so I appreciate that Democracy Forward is achieving results here as we are at the same time. Judges move within a range of reasonable options, given the law and the facts. and Judge McConnell has moved a little more quickly. And that's for the good, for the good of hungry Americans who need food and need it soon. So we believe that the contingency fund, which is$5 to$6 billion, will be spent despite Trump's unhinged and reckless comments.

45:05I know that the attorneys are trying to rein that in and trying to recommit to the adherence to the court order. But the court has ordered that. They need to spend the$5 to$6 billion. Unfortunately, the cost for SNAP benefits nationwide for the month of November is$8 billion. So it will only cover partial payments. Now my view, and this is shared by many of my colleagues, and I think the law shows this, is that SNAP food stamps are an entitlement program. They shall be given, the benefits shall be given to anyone eligible. So the contingency funds is definitely a required source of funding to pay for the SNAP funds, but I believe that the government needs to find the funding to pay full benefits to all who are eligible to be consistent with law and consistent with congressional statutory requirement.

45:56So that's the next step. What, you know, going to court potentially and requesting that additional funds, including the tariff funds that are used right now in part to pay for WIC, Women, Infants and Children, for that program. I'd like to see everyone who is eligible under SNAP get fed. And that happened immediately consistent with this entitlement program. So we'll see if it happens first through Judge McConnell in Rhode Island or through our case in Massachusetts. But that's the next step in our case to determine how best to achieve that result. And the irony, A.G. Bonta, irony is the wrong word, is that the very reason the Democrats are not agreeing to reopen the government or that Trump is not agreeing to reopen the government is over some of these exact same people in America and their need for health care at a reasonable price through Obamacare.

46:53I mean, people, Well, you know, not our audience, of course, but, you know, there's all this propaganda out there about what the Democrats are trying to accomplish. All they're trying to accomplish is to fix that aspect of that bill, that budget bill, to make sure that the most disadvantaged people in America, those that we should be pulling tighter to our bosom and should not be rejecting. I don't care what religion you are or no religion you are. That's just immoral and depraved. And then hit them again. So not only do they not have the health care they need under Donald Trump's program, and that's why the government shut down at this moment, but those same people are not going to be nourished and are going to go hungry and possibly die while Donald Trump, I mean, I know now who in his

47:36Michael Popok:high school play played Ebenezer Scrooge. I mean, you know, he's like stealing a tiny Tim's turkey. Right? Yeah. You know, the governor of our great state of California, Governor Newsom, recently saying Trump is waging a war on Thanksgiving with his withholding of SNAP benefits, waging a war on Christmas with his tariffs, making the cost of toys and already waged war on Halloween with the tariffs and the high price of candy. But you're absolutely right. The Trump administration's position has been we will starve hungry Americans until you allow us to rip away health care from Americans. And it is an insane position to be taken.

48:20Health care and food should be accessible and affordable to all in America, the wealthiest country on the face of planet Earth. and the president and the party in power need to negotiate. The president needs to negotiate with co-equal branches of government. He is not a king. He's not a monarch. He's not a tyrant. He needs to negotiate in good faith, including stopping his lies about the fact that the radical leftist Democrats want to provide health care to undocumented immigrants, and that's what this is about, providing health care to illegal immigrants. That's not allowed under the law, under the ACA.

48:57So they're not negotiating in good faith. Meanwhile, Trump's focused on his$300 million gold-plated ballroom and was overseas for quite a few days during the government shutdown. But you're right about the humanity here. The Democratic Party is the party of humanity, the party of compassion, the party of supporting our fellow Americans and helping those who are down on their luck and who need a helping hand, who need food, who deserve health care. And that's what we're fighting for, the well-being and the improved life circumstances of the American people. And I appreciate that that is our goal and our affirmative agenda.

49:35And it is righteous and right to be made in that fight. Absolutely. If you indulge us a little bit longer, Attorney General Bonta, let's return to that. That really, it really is earth shattering. Just so many things happened today, sort of got lost in the sauce a little bit with your big win, final judgment. with Judge McConnell about Donald Trump's attempts through his Department of Transportation to hold back critical infrastructure project money, bridges, tunnels, roads, where people die at high speeds if things aren't fixed, because he wants to get rid of or go after sanctuary cities and states, which federal judges have already told him he can't do.

50:16You can't conscript the states and violate their sovereignty under the 10th Amendment to do federal immigration enforcement. You want to do it? You use your federal immigration officers and all these other things. We'll get to the National Guard eventually. But you can't make that happen and then say,

50:35Michael Popok:hey, you know that billion-dollar tunnel project that you wanted to do? Or that fill-in-the-blank project? No. Punishment, reward, you know, reward and punishment system that Donald Trump has come up with. So talk a little bit about that and the other attorneys general, how much we're talking about in terms of billions of dollars in that case. Absolutely. And, you know, this is how Trump thinks. Everything is leverage. Everything is a negotiation. There's no such thing as just executing the laws that Congress has implemented and pushing out the funds that they've appropriated, which is what the executive branch is supposed to do.

51:12He's trying to use this funding as leverage to achieve some other goal that he has that is unrelated, that is an unconstitutional goal, as you have just stated. He's trying to violate the well-established anti-commandeering statute and component of the 10th Amendment, this idea that the federal government can't commandeer or conscript or enlist into service the states to do their job for them and can't try to use funding as a bludgeon and as coercion for that outcome. And this is well-established law and under Trump 1.0, he tried to do the same thing. California won then. Just as we are winning now, we were able to prevent him from trying to do the same thing and got a great Ninth Circuit order in that case.

51:55But of course, you know, this is what lawlessness is. When you know what the law is or you've been told what the law is, you've lost in the same set of circumstances before and yet you try again. And so he's doing that here with the Department of Transportation funding. He did it, by the way, for VOCA funding, Victims of Crime Act funding, the same conditioning of of funding on immigration enforcement requirements for the states. And he also tried to do it with Department of Homeland Security funding, funding for counterterrorism, for cybersecurity, for disaster and emergency relief. And so, and he's lost each time.

52:32And on the Voka case, he raised the white flag, he threw in the towel, cried uncle, and we won that case. And They're not trying to impose that condition anymore. We won the case on a final permanent injunction and final order on the Department of Homeland Security funding. And then we won today, you know, finished the trifecta, wrapped it up and rolled it up with the win on the Department of Transportation funding. All told, it's billions of dollars nationwide, billions. And California, always the biggest state in the nation that is the highest recipient of funding, as we should be, with the largest number of people of any of any state.

53:10So what I really want to put a fine point on here is that we're winning final cases and we're having judges call out the lawlessness and we're having judges show the courage and the conviction of their duties as judicial officers to let the chips fall where they may, follow the facts, follow the law wherever it goes. And where it keeps pointing to is a repeat offender, lawless president who is victimizing the American people, where they're trying to strip away funding for the hungry and food for the hungry or or ripping away health care through the through the through the legislation that he supports or here trying to take away infrastructure for keeping cars on the road and planes in the air or, you know, something that's important to all of us for our safety counterterrorism projects.

53:58and of course, supporting victims of crime, that they shouldn't be treated as pawns in this political game that Trump is trying to play when he tries to war with blue states who have pro-safety, pro-trust approaches to our immigrant community. So another great win today, among a lot of other really newsworthy occurrences today, but I did want to make sure we highlighted that. Oh, absolutely. And I wanted our audience to understand what the 23 Democratic Attorneys general are doing on a daily basis with your, I keep saying 50, you might be up to a higher number of cases now in your 90 plus percent winning percentage.

54:34You know, it's really remarkable. And then Democracy Forward doing the same thing with their over 100 cases. And that makes our audience feel better and sleep better at night, knowing that people like you are leading the charge, running into this burning building that Donald Trump has created, and obtaining billions of dollars of aid that have been held up by Donald Trump. He almost knows he's going to lose these cases, and yet he does it anyway in order to troll America, to troll the Democratic brand and the blue states. And, you know, on election night, we have to remember that we have the ability to run the bastards out on a rail, you know, and we're going to do that.

55:09And there's two last things while I have you, if you'll indulge us. I know, are you going to Washington? Are you going to the tariff oral argument? I am here as we speak. I arrived a couple hours ago. I'll be in the courtroom in the U.S. Supreme Court hearing room tomorrow to witness the argument and be supportive of the Solicitor General from Oregon arguing the case on behalf of the states. And, you know, I heard you talking earlier. We'll get a good sense, but the first few questions and comments from the judges where this is headed. But every court, and there's been three of them, have decided in our favor, and I think the U.S.

55:46Supreme Court should as well. I'm glad you're there, and maybe I'll try to get you on afterwards to get some initial reaction to the couple hour oral argument I'm sure this is going to be. We're going to live stream at Illegal AF, and I'll do commentary and some hosting there. But look, for me, it's relatively simple. If every tool in their toolbox, and I'm talking about the right wing of the Supreme Court, should lead inexorably to striking down the tariffs. If you start with statutory construction, or as Amy Coney Barrett said in her book, if you're doing statutory

56:20Michael Popok:construction, read the statute, read the statute, read the statute. Okay, let's read the International Emergency Economic Procedures Act, AIPA, let's read it. Where is the word tariff? There is not. Or as the court, you were involved, or as the Court of International Trade said, this is a tariff against almost every country indefinitely on every good. Where is that in congressional intent in giving up their Article I power. And so that's one. Statutory construction, it's easy. Read the words on the page and tell me where it says he can tariff the way he's tariffed, not on an emergency basis also.

57:01Michael Popok:That's one. Two, let's use originalism and textualism. Let's look through amber at the Constitution and try to divine what the founding father said. Okay, If you use that and you go through, as all the constitutional scholars who have written amicus briefs have said, and you start with Article 1, the power is solely in the congressional branch. So that should be a win. And then finally, the made-up doctrine of major questions, which they've come up with in the Roberts Court, which is where, if this is such a big thing, Congress would not have left it to implication or reading between the lines.

57:44Michael Popok:They would say it expressly, and they'd answer the major question in an affirmative way. So where is that? So under any of those tools that they've established, they should make short work of this tariff scheme. Don't you agree? Yes, 100%. You should argue the case tomorrow, Michael. But what will they do? You got it down. I think that's what they'll find. You know, I think that the statutory language, the clear and unambiguous language of AIPA, the textual argument, the historical precedent or lack thereof of AIPA ever being used to impose tariffs, you know, it just goes back to, you know, just a few logical connections.

58:28Congress, under Article 1, has the power to tax tariffs or taxes. In order for the president to be able to impose tariffs, he needs to have a clear delegation of authority. IEPA is the authority he relies on. It doesn't once mention tariffs in it, as you mentioned. Over the 50 years, nearly 50 years of its existence as a federal law, it's never been relied on by any president to impose a tariff. And Congress doesn't hide elephants in mouse holes. There's not some secret tariff authority in there where they never mention it and it's never used before. It doesn't authorize tariffs, clear and simple.

59:03That's why three courts have found it. So I think if the if the justices hew to the law and the facts, as is their job, as they should, this will be a victory for for the states who are arguing against these tariffs. And look, Trump has gotten very active in this space. He was going to come in person. Is he not coming any longer? Is that I know Besson's coming. I think just yesterday there was news broke that he's not coming. But he's sending messages to the justices through his comments and saying this is the most important U.S. Supreme Court decision in the history of the United States. It's going to completely undermine our safety, our security, our ability to have the foreign policy that we want.

59:48He's really trying to raise the stakes. And I think Americans would say we were doing just fine before these tariffs. Costs were lower. Economic harm was less. So, you know, please strike these tariffs down and give us some relief. And, you know, businesses have filed amicus briefs here talking about the devastation that they are experiencing with these with these, you know, reckless tariffs that are hurting our economy. So I think the U.S. Supreme Court will decide the way you are saying it is very strong textually and statutorily. Love to have you back to talk about that. And also, and I don't want to cram it in, there's going to be a big decision on a permanent injunction by Friday with Judge Immergut in Oregon, which you're involved with as well.

1:00:34Love to have you come back and brief our audience about the results of that. Such a special night on election night in America. MSNBC is already calling Virginia for the Democrat Spanberger as governor. New Jersey, I'm sure, is going to go blue as well. Prop 50 and all of that. And I'm so glad our audience got to hear from you directly here on The Intersection. We're going to turn it over to the Midas Touch election night coverage. Thank everybody here for supporting us on The Intersection and Legal AF. And thank you, Attorney General Rob Bonta. Honored to be with you, as always, Michael. Thank you.

1:01:07Michael Popok:Can't get your fill of Legal AF? Me neither. That's why we formed the Legal AF Substack. Every time we mention something in a hot take, whether it's a court filing or a oral argument, come over to the Substack. You'll find the court filing and the oral argument there, including a daily roundup that I do call. Wait for it. Morning AF. What else? All the other contributors from Legal AF are there as well. We got some new reporting. We got interviews. We got ad free versions of the podcast and hot takes where Legal AF on Substack. Come over now to free subscribe.

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