The Intersection with Michael Popok Full Episode - 12/16/2025

28:13That helps. I think we got about 500 reviews so far. I think we're trailing at about 4.9. I appreciate all that. YouTube, let other people know and bring them here. And then we've got the Legal AF YouTube channel, which we're showing a little version of here. 10, 11 videos a day. I got 12 different commentators. We just brought on the American Civil Liberties Union to be a regular contributor. Democracy Forward and all their 50, 60 cases with Sky Perriman has a regular playlist. We've got Court Accountability Action. We've got Cindy Blumenthal and Sean Wilentz, who are our resident historians.

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34:01This deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast, so order yours now to get in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. See, that's a perfect example. AuraFrames have been with us forever. I mean, like I remember doing an AuraFrame ad like four years ago. And Sundays for dogs, the dog food is slightly more recently, probably in the last couple of years. But yeah, you see how the sponsors stick with us through thick and thin. And we appreciate them. Thank you. And thank them for doing that. Let's talk about the ballroom that we're all up in arms about.

34:43and Judge Leon got assigned, Richard Leon got assigned a Bush appointee to the case in D.C., and he decided to hold an emergency temporary restraining order today. And I'm just going to bottom line it. Because the National Trust moved too late, they should have done it when we were all up in arms watching bulldozers bulldoze the East Wing. after Donald Trump told the American people, no, we're not going to really touch the East Wing. No, I've seen, that was a lie to the American people, because attached to the Trump administration Department of Justice filings today before the hearing were environmental impact reports prepared by, you know, federal offices way back when that said this is going to be a complete deconstruction of the east wing and a replacement with a ballroom so the new east wing is the

35:45Michael Popok:ballroom it always was going to be and certainly you know i love the euphemism the deconstruction of the east wing sure we'll salvage some historically important architectural features yeah okay yeah where are they going to be stored so but when we saw the bulldozers that's i mean i'm a trial lawyer that's when you run into court and ask for an emergency injunction because a bad thing's happening you want it to stop you don't watch it and wait two months you know i i read the um spokesperson the head of the the national historic trust and she was like this was not our first option. We tried many other different, yeah, no shit.

36:30Michael Popok:Problem is you should have moved quicker because it made it easy for Judge Leon to say, well, the damage is done, folks. See, injunctions are to stop future harm. So demo is over. Now they're working below ground to do all of the pile driving and foundation work and piping and all of that. And what Judge Leon said is they haven't started vertical construction. And I don't know what the vertical, and they haven't even gotten the plans approved, let alone finalized. And I don't know what the dimensional issues of these are, if it violates any law. There's meetings in December. There's meetings in January.

37:11Michael Popok:I've been told by the Trump administration that vertical construction meeting, the above ground, is not going to start until April. We seem to be a little premature. Why don't we all get back together in January? And he also, though, pointed the finger at the Trump administration. And he said, if you miss any of these meetings, I'm not going to be happy. He's planning meetings. And if ultimately it is determined that the golden ballroom is too big, it violates, it didn't pass these committees and congressional authority, you're going to be tearing part of it down. And that's happened before. For those who think that's never going to happen.

37:49Michael Popok:I've been involved in cases, or I know of cases, where buildings have been built higher than they were supposed to be built. and judges have ordered that parts get lopped off of buildings and it's happened. Tear down the 42nd through 59th floor. They have that power because there's no other relief. It can't just be damages. What do you do? Give money to people on the street because the building's too high? It's got to be some sort of remedy. And so we could have a tear down situation on the grounds of the White House. But I loved the justification in the papers that the, and we have them up on Legal AF Substack.

38:32Another reason to go to Legal AF Substack is that we've got for paid members all the legal, all the pleadings, all the motions and the briefing and the orders. So you can read them for yourself.

38:40Michael Popok:Everything that I use to prepare for my hot takes, I give you the toolbox. And hopefully with that and AI, I won't be replaced. Who knows? But in any event, if AI starts wearing cool glasses, I'm dead. I think that's what I'm trying to say. So in their papers, they can't file a paper without reminding us that he's the commander in chief and in charge of foreign policy. I'm like, okay. And therefore you get to tear down the ballroom in the middle of the East wing in the middle of the night. Oh, yes, the ballroom's got to be a secure location for all the diplomatic state dinners that he's going to be conducting.

39:18Michael Popok:How many more state dinners? He's going to be out of office. Come the midterms, he's going to be a dead, not lame duck, dead duck. And then he's out. So how many like state, and Melania hates state dinners. Ivanka won't come back to the White House. So how many state dinners is he really going to have? No, he's going to stick it to us that we're going to have to use this thing. And then there are papers besides saying, well, he's got the foreign affairs power, everybody. That's pretty powerful. They then went on to say, he just did what other presidents have done. And they gave this whole list, this fraudulent list of what other presidents have done.

39:58Michael Popok:Jefferson built the, I'm like, first of all, all right, will you stop? That was before all the laws that you've now violated were even here. You violated those laws. Jefferson didn't violate the laws in 1801. He built this portico and that portico and this. and then the and then they always have to have the line and it was a and the public was upset and the press was upset just like now yeah when truman redecorated oh the press when they pulled out the bowling alley or as caroline levette like to say during the press press presser recently there's been a lot of renovations to the white house that were allowed by other presidents.

40:42Michael Popok:Like the room we're in right now, this used to be a swimming pool. I just can't, I find it, she's so insufferable. I find her very, very difficult to listen to because she's so smarmy and too smart by half. And, but Donald Trump loves her. We know that. Oh, those machine gun lips on, on, on Carolyn LeVette. Yep. That's how you know she's lying because her lips are moving when she talks, right? So ballroom hearing, that's what happened there. So let's move on to Trump and U.S. attorneys because he's starting to give up the fight. But I'll tell you what that really means. Let's see if we have any more now.

41:23I just went back and forth with my assistant.

41:25Michael Popok:I said, hey, send me more questions. He says, yeah, okay, good. I'm like, now? This would be a good while the show is still on. That would be a really good idea. Let me see if I can grab some on the fly here. It's harder for me.

41:43So, we all know that in at least five or six different locations in New Jersey, in the Northern District of New York, in Virginia, in Vegas, in Nevada, in California, Donald Trump has tried to put his political hacks in, who have no prosecutorial experience,

42:01Michael Popok:maga maga um to do his bidding who would never be able to get confirmed at this in the senate even by these senators but that's not doll jump's intention he doesn't want to get any of them confirmed he just wants them to do his political retribution while he's uh while he's um in office That's one thing from the Susie Wiles Vanity Fair article I left out. She admitted that he's using political retribution to go after James Comey and Letitia James. I mean, the lawyers for Letitia James and Comey are probably popping champagne quarks after reading the Vanity Fair article because it plays right into their argument of vindictive prosecution.

42:46Michael Popok:What do you think political retribution is? It's another word for vindictive prosecution, which is a concept of the law that gets indictments dismissed. But she said, oh, but he was a bad little boy. But he promised me he would only do it in the first 90 days of the administration. How's that going, Susie? You thought you could control him? And the other revelation is there's some sort of ticker board that has all of his truth social posts running by the fireplace, like on a screen. So I guess they can react in real time, like when he announced today that he's going to war with Venezuela by social media posts.

43:26Michael Popok:They probably saw it for the first time, and then they got to react. Yeah, that's what we learned from Susie Weil. So Trump had been putting all these people in. Alina Haba, John Zarkone, Lindsey Halligan, this crazy person in Nevada, another one in California. But now they're all resigning after a number of court losses, three that I can count. So Alina Haber resigned. This other one in Virginia resigned. Nevada is probably going to resign. And Donald Trump's now moving to try to convince John Thune, the Senate majority leader, to get rid of the blue slips. I mean, this is a tradition dating back 200 years that you can't get a candidate through without the support of both senators from that state.

44:15If it's something, you know, if that person's tied to a state, like a state U.S. attorney or judge. And you got to have both U.S. You got to have both senators. It's a check, a check on the process. And they either turn in their blue slips, we approve, or they withhold their blue slips. So when you hear about blue slips, that's what they're talking about. And one's not good enough.

44:36Michael Popok:You need two, it's like Willy Wonka, but you need two golden tickets to get whatever position you want. Donald Trump hates that. Why do we have to? And so he's trying to get rid of the blue slip process, which is a terrible undermining of Senate tradition that we've relied on to kind of stop Donald Trump and other presidents from putting partisan acts into positions that they're not qualified to do. So that seems to be his new tactic. And we're going to continue to follow that very, very, very closely. And because Donald Trump is bored with his day job, as I said earlier, of wrecking hopes and dreams of Americans and crushing them economically, morally, socially, from a reproductive rights standpoint, or as I like to say now, who voted for this?

45:24I say, this is my new catchphrase. You know, I'm at the airport. I'm watching ICE chase after somebody in the airport while I'm about to board a plane. I turn to people I don't even know. And I go, who voted for this? That's my new catchphrase. Let me know in chat whether I should use that on a regular basis. And everybody laughed at the airport. They were like, none of us voted for this. There's so much pent up anger at Donald Trump, which is starting, of course, to be reflected in the polls, which I appreciate. hopefully in the polling, which I appreciate and I hope will end up being his demise.

45:58So let's turn to the libel suits and defamation suits, which are effectively the same thing, except libel is in writing and defamation is in, it can be done orally. Look, I've got some new questions from my assistant. titiana foley asked can the cat can the senate remove a cabinet official like pete hegseth he can be impeached he can be impeached like a president uh so he can be indicted if you will impeached by the house and convicted by the senate and removed yes yes he can and at the rate he's going like today he he did a confidential briefing about that venezuelan the first boat blow up in September the 2nd, blowing people out of the water with their backs turned, including a couple of guys hanging off the shipwreck.

46:55And now they're refusing to show the video. Does anybody think he's refusing to show the video because the video would be good for him? Or it would be war crime for him? Put it in the chat. And yes, so to answer your question, that's how you remove a cabinet official.

47:17Domingo 2390, Proud Boys are trying to sue the US for millions. Yep. But since they accepted the pardon and therefore admitted guilt, can they really sue? Sure. Sure. Absolutely. They're going to say, you know, whatever, they were railroaded, pardoned, you know, trust me, they're going to sue. And you don't even have to worry about ever seeing a court have to decide your issue, which is interesting, because the Trump administration is just going to use the phony lawsuit as cover to settle. And that's what groups like Democracy Forward and American Oversight and other public interest groups that we have on legal layoff regularly, that's why they're filing their Freedom of Information Act requests, because they want to know what's going on with the Ashley Babbitt settlement with her family.

48:05What's going on with

48:06Michael Popok:this phony settlement or lawsuit in order to give cover to the Department of Justice. Donald Trump's suing his own country. Donald Trump has a case right now making its way through the Federal Tort Claims Act where he wants to sue the Department of Justice for his attorney's fees totaling like$100 million for what he was put through because he's a criminal. And we reported on it. It just hasn't popped out yet as a lawsuit. Wait till that's filed as a lawsuit. people forgot about that. I didn't. We didn't. So yes, the guy that's suing his own government and his own American people, yes, will find a way to pay the proud voice.

48:48The only thing that stops Donald Trump from doing stuff like this is his political calculus that it's not going to help him. Although we're back to how I started the podcast tonight.

48:58Michael Popok:What is the constituency that is in favor of celebrating the stabbing death of an American icon who happens to be a Democrat in Rob Reiner. Who? What? What is it? There's some MAGA group that's, woo! Yeah, he deserved it. This is the guy that stopped America for several days because Charlie Kirk was killed. Literally stopped American government business. flew the entire cabinet to Arizona. Let a podcast be led by the vice president of the United States with Stephen Miller in the White House. And Rob Reiner, I'm not saying he's the Charlie Kirk of the other side, but certainly a celebrated American and somebody whose foundation has been doing some amazing work, including cases that we count on, like the Defense of Marriage Act.

50:01Michael Popok:you ghoulishly celebrate his death and blame him for his own death as the president of the United States. See, there's just people, and I see it in my own interactions with people because I'm, you know, I'm outside, I'm out in the world. And people that like a year ago were like, well, we're willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Well, he's better than Kamala, you know, all those kinds of phrases. Well, he'll be good for the economy at least. And now a year later, I literally got stopped by somebody who was in that first camp. It was kind of more independent than MAGA. And he said, quote, Trump is an effing a-hole.

50:41Michael Popok:I go, you're just waking up to that now? But people are just waking up to it now. And the polling shows it. It's not the Trump derangement syndrome. It's that Trump is deranged and everybody's starting to recognize it, especially voters. I think, I think, call me a cockeyed optimist. I think midterms are going to be a historic bloodbath for the Republicans and they know it because they can't get on that affordability train fast enough because we're not letting them on. We're like kicking them off as they, they're not, you can't do this. This, we're the party of affordability. Really? You can be the party of billionaires and trillionaires, but you can't be the party of golden ballrooms and marble bathrooms, but you can't be the party of affordability.

51:32Michael Popok:All right? You got to pick a lane and the American people have put you in your place. So that's where you are with that. Libel suits, where I started. Donald Trump filed a new one. New York Times fired back in one. Where are we? Donald Trump didn't like the fact that in a documentary run on the BBC somewhere, I didn't see it. Somebody watched it a week before the election about his second coming or his second chance. They spliced together some clips from Jan 6th and the Ellipse speech. Okay. In which over the course of a rambling, you think he rambles now? Well, he rambled then too. The course of this 53 minute speech, he said at one point, and I'm going to go down to the Capitol with you.

52:22So remember what we learned from the Gen 6 committee.

52:25Michael Popok:This was an angry, armed mob, okay, that he was whipping up and fomenting, that he then, like a weapon, turned them, pivoted them, and aimed them like a missile at the Capitol. That's what, we're going to go down to the Capitol and I'm going to be there with you. That's what that was, folks. And that's what happened. How do I know? Because that's what happened. As they didn't march on the Capitol, like Donald Trump likes to say, like Martin Luther King, they attacked the Capitol and assaulted the Capitol like the War of 1812 and tried to burn it to the ground and kill everybody inside. That's historical facts, everybody.

53:15Sorry. Sorry, it's not a, not to our audience, but sorry, it's not a love fest. but that's where we are. So you've got that comment.

53:25Michael Popok:And then later on, he talks about, but of course I mean peacefully, but we got to fight. We got to fight. We got to fight for our country. We got to fight. We don't fight. We're going to lose it. So they put the two things together. We're going to go down to the Capitol. No, no, no, no, no. We're going to fight, fight, fight, fight. Donald Trump said, oh, you left out that whole part, that half a sentence when I said be peaceful. Okay. and you know this is the same guy that couldn't bring himself he was seething uh but his uh family and advisors in the trump administration the first time pushed him out the white house and told him to go give us give a statement to tell the people to stop burning down the capital and he couldn't you saw it we've all seen the clip it's up on a video of mine on legal af you know which he said uh well the election was stolen that's how he started it the election was stolen everybody stole an election we're all very very upset nobody more than me but you don't you need to go home but we love you we love you when they're burning down the capitol and chasing nancy pelosi through the halls of the capitol we love you so that's the same guy it's very hard to defame that see to defame that guy he's got to have a certain character this is what i liked about the recent filing by the Wall Street Journal in their defense of the libel case brought against them because they published the Epstein birthday book with page 233 of the obscene birthday card drawn by or on behalf of Donald Trump and inserted and pasted into a book from 30 years ago.

55:00Right?

55:00Michael Popok:They argued, and they're right, Donald Trump can't be defamed. He's incapable of being defamed because his personal reputation is so poor you can't even defame it. That's what they're all arguing now, using his own words and his own actions. How can you defame somebody that just celebrated the stabbing death of Rob Reiner and barely acknowledged the death of students at Brown University and try to make a political hay out of the Bondi Beach massacre? How do you defame that person? I've said that from the beginning. I said E. Gene Carroll should argue. There's no way to defame him. He's incapable.

55:43Michael Popok:There's just some people on planet Earth that can't be defamed. You can't defame Hitler. You can't defame Charlie Manson. See where I'm going? Okay. So he files a case against the British Broadcasting Corporation for this. And then he uses all sorts of other, oh, they've always had it out for me. you know they once said that I I wanted my political rival Liz Cheney shot in the face I didn't say that what I said was she's a hawk for war and wouldn't it be great if there were nine barrels pointed at her face and she got shot in the face I'm sorry that seems to be splitting hairs don't you think I didn't ask for her to be shot in the face I just said wouldn't it be a shame if she was and he thinks this helps him So he gets the same lawyer in this little firm in Coral Gables, Florida, Alejandro Brito, who files all these cases right down the street from his office in Miami, hoping he doesn't get Judge Gale again because he's gotten Judge Gale twice for the Michael Cohen defamation case that went nowhere.

56:47Michael Popok:And now for the Wall Street Journal case that was brought and hope he gets another judge. And when I didn't get a chance to see what judge was actually assigned, I'll know better because I know the judge as well in Miami. but it'll be another motion to dismiss. One, I think it's in the wrong country. I think that case needs to be brought in England, in the UK, under the laws of England and Wales, as they like to say, for defamation or libel under the laws there, not here. That's the first argument. The second one will be motion to dismiss First Amendment right, freedom of the press, no actual malice, can't defame him, you know, like that.

57:25On the same day that he filed that, again, to distract, step on the micro cycle, news cycle, the New York Times in middle district of Florida up in Sarasota in front of Judge Merriweather filed their motion to dismiss the libel case against the New York

57:43Michael Popok:Times because the New York Times is mean to him about his finances and his daddy and the fraud they probably perpetrated, as the New York Times reported, in how they handled affordable housing and some other development. And you may remember, Merida took one look at the first complaint that was filed by the same lawyer I just told you about, Alejandro Brito, and said, I got this. I'm dismissing this. She didn't even wait for the New York Times. He said, I'm dismissing this. This is a political rant masquerading as a lawsuit effectively and i'll give you another chance and they filed and got better but now the new york times today file yesterday filed their motion to dismiss and you know it'll be probably in january february before we find out but i read the motion to dismiss is very very strong i'm sure they're going to win that case and uh the motion to dismiss hearing on the motion to dismiss about the wall street journal and Rupert Murdoch in the birthday book was heard last week.

58:50Michael Popok:And we're waiting for Judge Gales to make a ruling there. So Donald Trump probably knowing he's going to lose the New York Times case, going to lose the Wall Street Journal case about the birthday book. Everybody, who hasn't seen the birthday book? We have it. It's up on Legal AF Substack with a link. You can read all 233 pages of this Epstein birthday card. He's going to lose those two. So he's got to open up a new front, a new war, a new battle. hurry up, file the case. We need the one against the BBC for$5 billion. It's always the number. So that's been filed. And I'll report back on Legal AF and on Substack Live when I get the update about who the judge is.

59:29But it's going to take the same course. Could be the similar law firms. There's a couple of law firms like, I think it's Wright-Tremaine or Tremaine Wright. There's a couple of First Amendment law firms out of New York that do an amazing job in this area. They know the law like the back of their hand. And they usually join forces like one local law firm here, just a little inside baseball that I know well, Gunster Yokely, that has good offices up and down the east coast of Florida and I think on Tampa also. They've been local counsel, because you need a local counsel, to work with these New York firms against Donald Trump personally.

1:00:07And they join forces, they share notes and all that good stuff. But the best argument is the one I just laid out, which is Donald Trump is incapable, literally, of being defamed because of his lack of character. Let me do some final questions here.

1:00:23Michael Popok:You guys like this question answering thing? Because I like doing it. Henry Rosenbush wrote, do you think any fellow journalists will stand up for their female colleagues when Trump says misogynist and cruel remarks to their questions? That is such a great question. And you may have caught Henry or others. I did a whole piece on that about a week ago. When Donald Trump's busy saying, quiet piggy, hush piggy, you know, I'm smarter than you and all these other ridiculous, misogynistic, sexist things that he says out loud. I want two things to happen. I'd like the female reporter to look the president in the eye, backed by her colleagues, and say a version of, Mr.

1:01:12President, that is beneath you, your office, and me, certainly. That is undignified and uncalled for. I'm doing my job under the First Amendment and freedom of the press. You're apparently doing your job. and every answer to every question should not start off with a personal attack, especially one that's often sexist.

1:01:35Michael Popok:Somebody's got to say that. And I would like, now the problem is a lot of these reporters are young and they don't want to shut off the access and be banished from the White House. But then I want, as was just noted there by one of our watchers, then I want a male colleague to stand up and say, Mr. President, it is inappropriate for you to do what you are doing to my female colleagues. And I'm going to now ask the question that you refuse to ask because apparently of her gender. And then, and my other thing is, how about the entire press corps, except for MAGA, when Carolyn Levick enters the room, is they're either not in the room, they have a sick day or more, or they turn their back on her.

1:02:21Michael Popok:Trust me, they can do their reporting without being in the room. You know, it's like six people get to ask a question. You can watch the live feed. They can do it without you. And then you can do all your other reporting. It'll free you up to go running around Washington to try to do some investigative reporting instead of sitting around listening to the propaganda coming out of the North Korean press secretary and Carolyn Levitt. Well, somebody's got to do something. But, you know, Donald Trump early on, you know, Associated Press, you won't say Gulf of Trump. or Gulf of America, whatever it is, banished.

1:02:57Michael Popok:And then they got to like, you know, spend hundreds of millions, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars to try to get their press credentials back. Jim Acosta, this one, that one. You know, the Pentagon has effectively banned everybody who's a legitimate news organization from the room. And it's now just filled with MAGA MAGA, including Laura Loomer is in Pentagon briefings in which they came out. And I don't know where they get these, this press court, this communications officers or press secretaries for these different departments. They're all like mid-20s coming out of the MAGA factory trained by Stephen Chung and Caroline Levitt.

1:03:40Michael Popok:And they all, well, it's good to look around and finally see an impartial group instead of the liberal media that's always bashing the Department of War. I'm like, I'm sorry, is this, is this, is this, you know, communist China? Is this North Korea? Where are we? And yet, now I do credit the New York Times and Washington Post because they said, they threw their credentials in. They said, forget it. Forget it. We'd rather not report from inside the Pentagon if that's what we have to do. I'd like to see the regular press corps try some version of that.

1:04:21Michael Popok:Gilbert Goodman asked, why haven't they called Hegseth in for a public hearing? It's coming. It's coming. He's doing these closed-door briefings now, but he's not going to be able to avoid it. The Armed Services Committee is going to be calling him in, and Democrats are going to be asking questions. No doubt. my team tells me there's overwhelming yeses in the chat about the q a so i will continue to do them i'm so glad you're here with us on the intersection legal af of course the the grand pappy of them all uh wednesdays and saturdays at 8 p.m eastern time with the mightest touch network intersection a newer show that i do here on my own on tuesday nights at 8 p.m in eastern time invite your friends, but you're obviously doing it.

1:05:08I mean, the fact that we're in the top 30 in all YouTube podcasts, regardless of the type, it's just amazing to me. I have goosebumps.

1:05:19Michael Popok:And then Legal AF, the YouTube channel. Have I mentioned that we're really close to 1 million subscribers recently? Even that's out of date. I think we just posted. We're about 13 ,000 away, which is like two, three weeks away from hitting our 1 million subscribers in about a year's time. And I know that's what keeps me energized and getting up in the morning full of vim and vigor and hitting the microphone and doing the work that we do and continuing to build. And the bigger that we are, the more street credibility that we have. It's not just like, it's not ego. Like, oh, I get the YouTube trophy.

1:06:05I never got the YouTube trophy for a hundred thousand subscribers. It's still in the mail. I never got the hardware. It's not that. It's the bigger we are, the more street credibility that we have. So when we speak to an attorney general or a former judge or a politician, a senator, you know, last week we had

1:06:27Michael Popok:Sheldon Whitehouse on this week, Eric Holder, the American Civil Liberties Union. You know, when we were like 25 ,000 subs a year ago, I'm not getting the American Civil Liberties Union to join forces with us. We're democracy forward. I'm just not. And I am now because of you. And that is the benefit. Sure, it keeps the lights on and lets us expand, bring in more editors, bring in more content, bring in more people. I'm speaking to another major, major talent to join us on a regular basis. I can't reveal it yet because I'm not there yet, but I think you guys will be blown away with this particular voice and their viewpoint.

1:07:08Michael Popok:And I'm working hard for that to get it on board by January. But we're building this channel, this network, this ecosystem together with our bare hands. And I really appreciate all that you do. And I'm glad you're here on The Intersection. I'm Michael Popok. Shout out to the Midas Mighty and the Legal AFers.

1:07:46oral argument there, including a daily roundup that I do call, wait for it, Morning AF. What else? All the other contributors from Legal AF are there as well. We got some new reporting. We got interviews. We got ad-free versions of the podcast and hot takes. Where? Legal AF on Substack. Come over now to free subscribe.

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