Trump Blindsided as Criminal J6 Case Returns

0:00Kris Mayes:I think Donald Trump pardoning 18 people in Arizona for their role in the fake elector scheme, including someone, Christina Bobb, that's in his Department of Homeland Security, all of which had mugshots like Rudy Giuliani and John Eastman, only pissed off the attorneys general like Kris Mayes, the Arizona attorney general, once a Republican, now a Democrat, who believes that a coup is in progress by Donald Trump and his administration. she's not laying down for the indictment. The indictment was dismissed by an appellate court because they said she had to go back to a grand jury to try to re-indict the 11 fake electors in Arizona from 2020 and the seven people in Donald Trump's inner circle, including his lawyers and his chief of staff like Mark Meadows.

0:45Kris Mayes:And she said nothing of the kind is necessary and has now taken an appeal up to the Arizona Supreme Court. Yes, the aftermath of 2020 is still going on. It's lived every day. It's a lived experience by the attorneys general, the 23 Democratic ones who have bound together and talk every other day about the way to defeat Donald Trump. And this is just the latest example. Some people might have thought, wasn't there a fake elector prosecution in places like Arizona and Wisconsin? Yes. And this one is going to be revived based on what my reading is of the new Supreme Court petition that was just filed by Chris Mays' office.

1:25Kris Mayes:I also, spoiler alert, I also had the great honor and pleasure of briefing and debriefing Chris Mays, the Attorney General of Arizona, in the last 72 hours about this particular case. Now, I didn't want to put her on the spot because she had not yet publicly made the decision, but she is very, very definitive about why she feels it's necessary from the moment she gets up in the morning and brushes her teeth till her head hits the pillow at night to fight back against this lawless, rogue president. I'm Michael Popok. You're on Midas Touch and Legal AF over the weekend. Let's get to the new filing that just happened in the last 24 hours by Chris Mays' office.

2:09Kris Mayes:You may recall that while Jack Smith, as special counsel, went after the head of the conspiracy and brought a case against just Donald Trump and then a couple of people at Mar-a - Lago, while having a whole bunch of unindicted co-conspirators mentioned in the indictment. It was left to the attorneys general once they saw that Jack Smith was done with his indictments to pick up the pieces. And people like Chris Mays were very public about having to stand up for the American people and the people of Arizona and indict people who tried to overthrow democracy. In fact, you may recall her press conference when she announced the indictment.

2:52Kris Mayes:But here's a clip. After the general election on November 3rd, 2020, the defendants and other unindicted co-conspirators raised false claims of widespread voter fraud in Arizona to pressure elections officials to change the outcome of a transparent, free and fair Democratic election. Those efforts ultimately failed when officials stood firm, followed their statutory duties and officially certified Arizona's election on November 30, 2020. The defendant Republican presidential electors, allegedly plotting with additional defendants, then voted for Mr. Trump and Vice President Pence on December 14, 2020, falsely claiming to be the duly elected and qualified electors for president and vice president of the United States from the state of Arizona.

3:45These defendants deceived the citizens of Arizona by falsely claiming that those votes were contingent only on a legal challenge that would change the outcome of the election. In reality, the defendants intended that the false votes for Trump and Pence would encourage Vice President Pence to reject the certified Biden-Harris elector's votes regardless of the result of any legal challenge.

4:15Kris Mayes:So that case got up and running. The federal pardon that Donald Trump just did of these 18 people, including Christina Bob, that is now a senior leader in his, if you can believe it, in his Department of Homeland Security. Her title is Executive Secretary for the Department of Homeland Security, overseeing the management of written communication intended for and originated by the Secretary and Department of Secretary of Homeland Security. So anything you hate about Christine Noem's public statements were probably written by Christina Bob. Christina Bob was a lawyer working alongside Rudy Giuliani on Team Crazy, as it was referred to during the Jan 6 Committee.

4:54Kris Mayes:She was sort of that year's Lindsay Halligan, if you know what I mean. And she's in the government, yet she was indicted by a state prosecutor.

5:05Michael Popok:Federal presidential pardons don't help her or any of the rest of them. You know, for just a quick teachable moment, the pardon power under Article 2 of the Constitution is absolute. I know that because the Supreme Court has recently said it. But that's only for federal crime.

5:25Kris Mayes:Donald Trump or any president has as much pardon power when it comes to state cases, state criminal cases, or even civil cases, that he has the same power that you and I have, meaning none. Only the governor or in some states a commission can grant a pardon of a state offense. And so forget the pardons. That was just theatrics. That was just performative in order to give these people something to write in their obituaries that they got pardoned for the crimes that they committed. Doesn't mean they didn't commit the crimes, just means that they got a pardon.

5:58Michael Popok:Now, a lower level appellate court in Arizona ruled that, and it's a very Republican heavy state at the judiciary. I was just in Arizona. You'll see my interview with Chris Mays in a moment. It's a blue purple state when you talk to people and you see the politics, but the governors

6:16Kris Mayes:have been Republican lately and the judiciary is heavy Republican. So an appellate court ruled that because Chris Mays's office did not present to the grand jury as they were rendering the indictment, the text of the Electoral Count Act of 1887

6:34Michael Popok:that rendered the indictment invalid. I don't see it. Chris Mays' office doesn't see it. Prosecutors have to present the statutes, the criminal statutes that are being implicated by the conduct with clear language and instruction and legal instruction around the elements of a crime in the state. They have to present the evidence to show that there's probable cause in order to gain the indictment on a probable cause standard. Indictment, probable cause, conviction beyond a reasonable doubt, completely different burden of proof. No one's in the grand jury except the lawyers for the prosecution team and occasionally witnesses.

7:20Michael Popok:The defense can ask to participate, but there's no obligation to let them speak as a witness to the grand jury. And mostly they don't. So you have an obligation to give fair, but frankly, one-sided information to the grand jury. If there's some evidence that's obvious that is exculpatory, meaning tends to prove the innocence of the defendant, then I think you have to present that, or you may have to present that. But you don't have to present these alternate theories. See, the theory that the defense has, which would be their defense in front of a judge after being indicted, not grounds to dismiss an indictment, is that they were just contingency fake electors.

8:00Michael Popok:They were alternate electors. They don't like to call themselves fake electors. And that they were only to spring into action if a federal court or some court called into question the election. Of course, in 80 lawsuits, no court called into question the election, including the United States Supreme Court. But that plan sort of morphed into something else. It was originally created by a combination of Ken Chesborough, a lawyer, and John Eastman, a half-baked constitutional lawyer. And they put up

8:32Kris Mayes:this plan and they said, oh, if there's a challenge, we'll have the alternate electors ready. But there was never a successful challenge. But that didn't matter because at the end, And people like Mike Roman, who's also indicted, the election day coordinator for Donald Trump, said F, in a famous email to Ken Chesprow, said, F the electors. Get me a copy. I needed to give it to Mike Pence. He was like the mule for the certificates. And Chesprow's like, but there's no lawsuit that declares the election invalid. So I don't care.

9:04Michael Popok:So it went from alternate electors in their scheme to effectively fake electors, where Mike Pence would be forced to recognize the slate of actual electors certified by the state, the governor, the secretary of state, attorney general of each state, and then this slate of, you know, wacko fake electors. And then the goal was for Mike Pence as President Tempor of the Senate to throw it over and say, I can't figure it out. There's all these competing slates of electors, and I'm going to throw it to the Congress to pick the president. Forget the Electoral College. It would have gone to each delegation within the House.

9:46Kris Mayes:And there's more red delegations than there are blue delegations. So it would have been Donald Trump all over again. That was the scheme.

9:53Michael Popok:So the argument in the new filing, I'm going to read it to you now, is that there is no obligation to provide to the grand jury the Electoral Count Act of 1887 because it is a federal statute. We're talking about state crimes and it's a non-criminal statute. So it doesn't need to be provided to them at all. Everyone acts like they fully understand AI. And meanwhile, I'm over here arguing with my smart fridge. If you feel that way too, that's where Udacity comes in. This podcast is sponsored by Udacity. Want to learn skills that command high salaries, Udacity is an online learning platform with courses in AI and tech, including generative AI, agentic AI, Python, data science, and much more.

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12:21Kris Mayes:Now, I asked Chris Mays as a lead up to her decision making.

12:25Michael Popok:She was about to make the decision in about 48 hours after I asked her these questions. But I wanted you to see my interview with Chris Mays in case you missed it. Here's the interview of Chris Mays. And the other thing that's on the minds of our audience, you know, especially coming off of a big election night in America a couple of weeks ago, is the elections at midterm. And your office very publicly prosecuted 18 people related to the last election, presidential election, 11 electors, fake electors, we refer to them in shorthand, and seven people in the inner circle for Donald Trump, including many of his lawyers.

12:59Many of those people have now received a federal pardon, although that doesn't help them with your case I don't want to focus so much on what's happening with your particular case But what it what does it mean for the future? What is what is your Attorney General Office going to do to ensure people that their vote is going to count that we're not going to have another Certification problem or God forbid Donald Trump makes good on his attempts or his people around him to try to get on the ballot for a third term What are you prepared to do?

13:28Mark Meadows:Look, I mean, we are prepared to, you know, protect our elections and we are prepared to enforce the law. And that is what we did when we took the fake elector's case to the grand jury, which was, you know, we decided that it was important to present this case, let a grand jury decide. They decided to charge 18 individuals with an attempt in 2020 to essentially overthrow an election. And so what are we prepared to do? We will continue to uphold election law and to make sure that no one tries to overthrow an election. That's your message to the next fake elector? Yeah, I mean, in a sense, and it's an interesting question because, you know, this issue has come up in terms of the fake elector's case.

14:31Mark Meadows:You know, there's an anti-slap motion. We won't get too far into it. But basically, we are the only state in the country that has a criminal anti-SLAPP law that allows defendants to claim that they were engaging in free speech when they engaged in allegedly criminal acts. And there are civil anti-SLAPP laws across the country as well. What I worry about these anti-slap laws is that they are a get-out-of-jail-free card or people are trying to use them that way. But criminal law, as you know, is used as a deterrent. We want to deter illegal activity in the future. Arizona has, for instance, a death penalty.

15:21Mark Meadows:We have the death penalty in Arizona, and I think I'm the only Democratic AG carrying out the death penalty in this country right now because it is the law of the land. The death penalty is a deterrent against people committing murder. That is what criminal law is, by and large. It's not just punitive, but it also is designed to be a deterrent against future crime. So yes, do I want to send a message to Future bad actors who might try to undermine American democracy you bet I do Because that's what the law is about. You know, I am out there saying I'm an attorney general who will enforce the law That's my job.

16:02Yeah, and and A.G. Mays when you said in one of your early statements and speeches about against the Trump administration back in February and so write, you said what we're watching is an ongoing coup and an assault against the Constitution. Let's talk about that.

16:22Mark Meadows:Yeah, I think I was one of the first people to say that and to use that word, but I, you know, I believe strongly that we have to call it what it is, and it still is. You know, This is a president who is trying to overthrow American democracy and who on a daily and weekly basis, Michael, is violating our Constitution. That is why I have sued him 30 times, because when any president, any president, and I would be doing this if it was a Democrat in power as well, violates our Constitution, violates the law. It is the job of the state AGs to push back on that. Okay.

17:05Michael Popok:Now, she's walking into a buzzsaw, but she's fighting for our democracy because most, the vast majority of the Supreme Court in Arizona is Republican. But I don't think she has a choice. She has to stand up and make a principled position. As you heard her say, she's going to enforce the law. There has to be repercussions. there has to be holding people accountable. She's worried about the next slate of fake electors if they get away with it. If she just threw up her hands and said, well, I'm going to walk away. It's too hard. They got federal pardons and it's 2024, 2025 already. She can't do that.

17:45Michael Popok:And she didn't do that. That's why I'm so glad to have met her. And I'm going to be regularly having her on Legal AF with you here in order to brief our audience at the intersection of law and politics. Take a minute and help us on Midas Touch. Hit the subscribe button there. But where we really need the help is on Legal AF YouTube, because check to see if you are a subscriber. We're going to cross 970 ,000 subscribers this weekend. I think we're going to hit a million before Christmas and Hanukkah, but only with your help. And the bigger we get as an audience, the more street cred we have at the intersection of law and politics.

18:20Michael Popok:To be all things law and politics with our contributors. That's how we're able to bring on the American Civil Liberties Union regularly to give interviews. That's how we're able to bring on Democracy Forward and Sky Perryman. That's how we're able to have our resident historians, Sidney Blumenthal and Sean Wilentz, or bring on Shan Wu, the former general counsel for the attorney general, or the pragmatic optimists, or court accountability action, or people like Dina Dahl and civil action and my own commentary. and bring you the lawyers that are in the courtrooms, fighting it out with Donald Trump every day so that you can get briefed by them.

18:59Michael Popok:Take a minute, come over to Legal AF YouTube, hit the subscribe button. No outside investors, no paywall. Come over to Legal AF Substack, where I post the brief that was just filed by Chris Mays, Arizona Attorney General, for you to read for yourself. So until my next report, I'm Michael Popak. I'm Michael Popak, and I got some big news for our audience. Most of you know me as the co-founder of Midas Touches Legal AF, and the Legal AF YouTube channel, or as a 35-year national trial lawyer. Now building a what we started together on Legal AF, I've launched a new law firm, the Popok Firm, dedicated to obtaining justice through compassionate and zealous legal representation.

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