Trump DOJ Shredded in Court by Pissed Off Judge

24 Nov 2025 · 17 min · 4 chapters

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In short

An evidentiary hearing before Judge Zinnis in Maryland over ICE detention and removal plans for Kilmer Abrego Garcia, including whether the DOJ’s actions were retaliatory and whether there is a valid final removal order.

Guest backgrounds

No podcast guests are identified in the transcript; the host is Michael Popak, discussing the case on Midas Touch Network and Legal AF.

Key claims

Judge Zinnis was dissatisfied with DOJ witnesses (including ICE removal/detention official John Cantu), found their testimony lacking, noted no final order of removal from years ago, and questioned the logic/timeline of sending Abrego Garcia to Liberia instead of Costa Rica after he refused to plead guilty.

Notable examples

Costa Rica option allegedly withdrawn; Liberia described as “temporary” by Liberia’s press release; prior Supreme Court 9-0 order to return him; alleged fabricated Tennessee human-trafficking case.

Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.

Chapters

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Judge Zinnis and Abrego Garcia's Case

0:30 to 2:42

Explore the complexities of Abrego Garcia's immigration case and the judge's perspective.

“She wasn't pleased with any aspect of the Department of Justice testimony.”

The Impact of Trump's Administration

2:42 to 4:04

Discuss the implications of the Trump administration's actions on Garcia's case.

“Abrego Garcia has been sitting in a Virginia ICE detention center for a couple of months.”

Judge's Critique of Government Testimonies

4:04 to 5:40

Review Judge Zinnis's criticisms of the DOJ's witnesses in Garcia's case.

“First of all, she said the prime witness, there were three of them for the government.”

Final Observations on Garcia's Asylum Case

7:39 to 12:26

Analyze the potential outcomes and legal strategies regarding Garcia's asylum request.

“She also focused like a laser on the lack of a final order from an immigration judge from six or seven years ago.”
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Transcript

Automatic transcript. May contain errors.

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0:30Michael Popok:Kilmer Abrego Garcia, the poster child for Donald Trump's torture campaign without due process against migrants and those that had an order to remain in the United States, is one step closer to being released from ICE detention in Virginia and or being granted asylum or at least being sent to the country of his choice, Costa Rica, because of testimony in an evidentiary hearing before Judge Zittis in Maryland. She wasn't pleased with any aspect of the Department of Justice testimony. She didn't believe any of the witnesses. She said out loud there effectively they are worth zero to her. And she's focused on the fact that there appears to be no final order entered by an immigration judge six years ago, a final order of removal.

1:18Michael Popok:And if there's no final order of removal, then the administrative process has not been exhausted and he's not going anywhere. I've always said I thought Judge Zinnis, in order to penalize the Department of Justice for prosecutorial abuse, for sending him to the torture prisons of El Salvador, for then tormenting and torturing his family and Americans by trolling them. with he'll never be brought back and having the president of El Salvador say he'll never bring him back. And only after the Supreme Court 9-0 in the middle of the night ordered him to be returned. And only after they trumped up a phony criminal case against him in Tennessee that they finally return him and he's still in ICE custody.

1:58I've always said that the remedy

2:00Michael Popok:for that due process violation, which is being handled by Judge Zinnis, is to grant him asylum and let him live with his American wife and his American children in Maryland, where he was for the last six or eight years, you know, under an order of non-removal to El Salvador. If there's no or final order, he's not going anywhere. But I think it should go one step further. I think Judge Zinnis should grant him under her equitable powers, the asylum for the abuse that was heaped on him by the Trump administration. I'll talk about this particular hearing that happened, an evidentiary hearing that happened, and what I think the results are going to be here on the Midas Touch Network and on Legal AF on Michael Popak.

2:41Michael Popok:All right. Abrego Garcia has been sitting in a Virginia ICE detention center for a couple of months. He's the subject of a criminal case in Tennessee that was fabricated, I believe, by the Trump administration. That's going to go to trial maybe sometime in the first quarter of 2026. But there's a judge there, Judge Crenshaw, that's deciding whether that case should be dismissed for a vindictive prosecution. And we also, the parallel case in front of Judge Zinnis is a case brought by Abrego Garcia against Christy Noem and the Department of Justice and the Trump administration for civil rights and due process violations.

3:19Michael Popok:That's what she's responsible for. Now, he has been sitting in a Virginia ICE detention center while this judge makes her final decision. He wanted, and he said he's willing to go to Costa Rica, Spanish-speaking country, just off the coast of the United States, where his family can visit him or maybe even relocate. But because he refused to plead guilty to human trafficking charges in Tennessee, they refused to give him Costa Rica, the Department of Justice and Homeland Security. And instead, they made arrangements to send him 3 ,000 miles away to Liberia, an African country. and the judge is not happy about that.

4:03Michael Popok:And so she had everybody in. First of all, she said the prime witness, there were three of them for the government. In this case, the head of the ICE removal and detention who came before him, John Cantu, who filed a sworn statement under oath. She said his testimony was effectively zero in her mind, that he'd never read the sworn declaration in writing that was filed in her courtroom, that he didn't have any personal knowledge of the discussions between the State Department and Liberia, that he didn't have any personal knowledge of the decision-making between the State Department and Costa Rica.

4:46Michael Popok:He doesn't know why Costa Rica is no longer on the table. He doesn't know why the State Department and the Trump administration pulled Costa Rica away from Abrego Garcia and his family. We know why. The judge knows why. It's because he refused to plead guilty to fabricated charges of human trafficking, and they're trying to punish him and make an example. The best that Drew Ensign, the lawyer for the Department of Justice, could say is that he believes Kristi Noem made a decision that it's a preference. It's a preferential reason that the Trump administration wants to send him to Africa. That's not good enough for Judge Zinnis.

5:28Michael Popok:She said the whole thing doesn't make any sense. The whole timeline doesn't make any sense. And the witnesses for the Department of Justice aren't helping her get to the bottom of it. And that's pissing her off. That last part was my own editorial. Did you know the liver is the second largest organ in your body? It's responsible for over 500 functions. But for some reason, liver health doesn't always get the attention it deserves. Over 30 % of Americans have a sluggish liver, a problem that often goes undetected until the very last minute. Dose is on a mission to educate us all on why it's so important to maintain your liver health and has created an incredible product to help you do just that.

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7:49Michael Popok:See, he had an order of non-removal in his back pocket. That's why every court, including the United States Supreme Court that's looked at it, said he was illegally sent without due process to the tortured prisons of El Salvador, where upon arrival, he was tortured along with 200 other people. She said no final order. So the administrative process is still ongoing. And even the government had to concede that there's no final order. And so the defense lawyers jumped up and down and said, no final order. How can you remove him? So if there's no final order of removal, see, he had an order of removal against him and also one that said he couldn't be removed to El Salvador.

8:32Michael Popok:But it wasn't apparently in final because the administrative law judge back then either made a procedural error or just forgot or closed the file, closed the door. But that's to Abrego Garcia's advantage. And in fact, the judge is also concerned with the retaliatory nature of him being shipped to Liberia. She said, or as the attorneys for Abrego Garcia said, the timeline suggests the pattern. When the government received orders it disliked in Abrego Garcia's civil case challenging his unlawful removal to El Salvador, it initiated a criminal prosecution and retaliation. And when it received orders it disliked in Abrego Garcia's criminal case, it initiated third country removal efforts in retaliation.

9:18Michael Popok:The judge said out loud in the hearing, it is so odd to me, she said. It's so odd. And that's being polite, Judge Zinnis said, citing the, quote, empty word salad declaration she got from this guy Cantu, who's the head of removal operations for ICE about the Trump administration's lack of willingness to let Abrego Garcia go to Costa Rica. The lawyers for Abrego Garcia reminded the judge that there's no evidence that Costa Rica is unwilling to take the client. And then there's another problem because Liberia has said in its own press release that they're willing for humanitarian purposes to take Abrego Garcia temporarily.

10:00Michael Popok:And the lawyers said, what does that mean? What does the temporary mean? A day, a week, a month, a year, two years, and then what happens? So then they release him. The Trump administration or the next administration sends him to another torture chamber. But again, I think the backdrop to all of this is that Judge Zinnis should, as part of her equitable powers, and to punish the Trump administration for an abuse of power and prosecutorial misconduct and retaliation, should grant him asylum. Just grant him asylum. Let him walk out the front door and reunite with his family. That's what should happen.

10:43Michael Popok:And I don't see that as a violation under the circumstances. I don't see that as a violation of the Immigration Act or any other immigration law. She can cross over as a federal judge and fashion a remedy. And if the government doesn't like it, They can go take their appeal to the Fourth Circuit and then to the United States Supreme Court. Let's get to the United States Supreme Court where this case is obviously headed with the record that's been developed by Judge Zinnis. And let me remind the Trumpers out there. Judge Zinnis has been right every time. She got upheld twice by the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals for her decision making around getting Abrego Garcia back to the United States and her orders around that.

11:25Michael Popok:two different Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals rulings. And she was affirmed 9-0 by the United States Supreme Court already in this case. So my odds and my bet is with Judge Zinnis, not with the Department of Justice, who in her mind presented word salad witnesses with zero credibility or knowledge and were a big zilch for her in terms of trying to decide this case. and the burden is on them ultimately. It's not the burden on the defense at this point. I think the burden has shifted already to the government to prove by at least the preponderance of the evidence that their decision-making around sending him to Liberia instead of Costa Rica, where he's already declared he's willing to go, is legitimate and in good faith.

12:14Michael Popok:I think the judge should do one better. She should say, you don't have to go to Costa Rica either. I'm granting you asylum. bang the gavel and walk out and let the appeals fly. We'll continue to follow it right here on the Midas Touch Network and on Legal AF. Come over to Legal AF, the YouTube channel, hit the free subscribe button. Help us continue our march to get to 1 million subscribers before the holidays. Till my next report, I'm Michael Popak.

12:50Michael Popok:You'll find the court filing and the oral argument there, including a daily roundup that I do call, wait for it, Morning AF. What else? All the other contributors from Legal AF are there as well. We got some new reporting. We got interviews. We got ad-free versions of the podcast and hot takes. Where? Legal AF on Substack. Come over now to free subscribe.

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From the publisher

A Federal Judge called DOJ witnesses "word salad testimony" and "zeros" as she decides whether to release Kilmar Abrego Garcia from custody and send him to Costa Rica (or give him amnesty) instead of sending him 3000 miles away to Liberia. Michael Popok dissects the evidentiary hearing before Judge Xinis and why she may release Garcia as a remedy to punish the Trump Administration for abuse of power and prosecutorial misconduct.

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