A field guide for introverts: How to thrive at work without changing who you are | Susan Cain (author of "Quiet")

30:04And then five is kind of make it, is the advice you're around ambition. It's like introverts are ambitious, but they may not understand how to achieve this ambition so it's less like make it clear your ambitious more so come up with a plan to achieve this ambition by getting advice from someone is that the advice? Yeah and first of all I'm amazed that you could like do that I don't know how you pull that off just now. Quick notes. And I would add to it to make sure to kind of lean into your strengths And I was just thinking about your case of like when I said that I look at your newsletter and I was pretty sure you were an introvert.

30:45It wasn't because, oh, this is a person who is writing for a living. That piece actually hadn't really occurred to me. It was because you're so obviously someone who goes really deeply and really thoroughly into a subject of passion. and then, you know, it's almost like your, it's almost like a little hear is journey. You're like going into the forest of your passion and then you're bringing the treasures for the rest of us to enjoy. And this is something that introverts do very naturally. Like we tend to have one or two or three passions in our lives and one or two or three people in our lives who are very devoted to you and we lavish everything in the direction of those passions and those people.

31:28And that is an incredible superpower. power. And so very often, like if you look at introverts who have become great leaders, in a broad variety of fields, they're usually, they're not the kind of people who, when they were a kid, everybody was like, that child is a natural leader. Like they're not that person. They're usually people who have these incredibly deep passions. And if you have those, you end up acquiring a lot of expertise and building a network of people who have those same passions and inspiring a lot of trust from people who care about the same stuff that you do. And that's a real superpower.

32:09The way you describe it makes me want to just hire a company of introverts. They go, they spend all this time fighting treasures for you and bring them back quietly and very. That's funny. But actually, I'm glad you said that because when I really do think and the research bears this out to, the best performing teams and companies really are a mix of both. Like, we so desperately need both types. And introverts and extroverts tend to really enjoy each other's company because we complement each other so well. And it's very easy to admire strengths and traits that we don't have ourselves. So there's a kind of mutual admiration that goes on as well.

32:46Speaking of that reminds me of, I don't know if this was in your book or a different book. There's some data that shows sales people that are more introverted or actually more successful. Is that ring a bell? I think that the most recent study I've seen shows the most successful sales people are ambivots because they're like extroverted enough to close the deal. They're introverted enough to do the listening that good salesmanship usually requires. But having said that, you could be successful any which way. And in quiet, my book, I profiled a guy who was like, and I remember the exact detail, but something like Lee Leading, salesperson of the year of Kutko knives.

33:29And he talked about how he would just go and do like these deep listening sessions with his customers and really figure out what they needed. And they trusted him because he was authentically curiously listening to them. So yeah, which is to say, there's whatever strength you have, you figure out how to maximize it. There resonates with product work a lot of people, a lot of the part of the job of a product leader is to figure out what to build and a lot of that is talking to users, research and things like that and actually listening. And so it's interesting and similar that sales anecdote is to being a Greek product person.

34:07Something that this brings up for me is the importance of saying no to things as an introvert that are not things that bring you energy and will distract you from this sort of thing. I know Tim Ferriss is writing this new book called The No Book. I was listening to your interview with him. That's why I had his in my mind. But I guess is there anything you've learned about just, or any tactics you've learned about saying no to things that one will de -energize you and two, just allow you to kill deep on stuff that you want to go deep on? Well, I mean, you might have heard the following advice before.

34:41When I first heard it, it came as a revelation to me, But it's when someone asks you to do something that is like three or four or five months away There's a tendency to say yes to that because it feels so safely in the distance So before you say yes, you should ask yourself how you'd feel if you had to do that thing tomorrow or next week And that's that's the real test, but also a more broad level I I love the psychologist, Michali Cheek -Sentney -Hi, late psychologist. He did all these studies on creativity and wrote a book about it. At the beginning of this book, he talks about how he approached all these deeply, famously creative people who he wanted to study.

35:32And he said that he got back answers from some of them saying, your study sounds interesting, but if I said yes to these kinds of things, I wouldn't be able to do the creative work that I did. Yeah, and that like leapt out at me and I think about it all the time now when I regretfully say no to this and that. That reminds me of something that I often think about. Naval has this, basically the same advice. He has this insight that you start doing something really well. You become successful with it. you start getting invited to parties and events and talks and Collabs you start doing that You have no longer you no longer have the time to do that thing that made you successful well And that all falls apart and the trick is don't fall for that and keep doing the work that you're doing I know it's really tricky.

36:23It's very tricky because The thing is when you do go to those kinds of events you actually usually do you meet incredible people who you're really happy to know. I mean, in my experience, and like some of the people I've met at those kinds of events over the years have become my best friends. So I just try to think of it really strategically. Like I just pick, you know, a few of those things that I say yes to and then I say no to all the others. But I don't like to say no to all of them because I do feel like there's something meaningful that happens at every single one. I'm more extreme than you.

37:01I actually created a policy with myself. No events, no talks, no other podcasts. Just like the default is no. And once in a while I break the rule, but that's what I find is what I need. Because otherwise I'm just like, no, that would be fun. Let's go to the dinner thing. Wait, wait, wait, this is fascinating. So like, okay, you say, how often do you break the no rule? Pretty rarely. If it's like a work thing, you know, if it's like friends, like meeting with a baby or a friend or something like But yeah, it's pretty rare. It's really hard because partly because I get invited to a bunch of random BC stuff and talk and podcast things So yeah, I'd say like like maybe five percent of time I break it interesting.

37:38Okay. Yeah. No, I understand and I actually do I still do I used to do a ton of speaking for companies and schools and so on and I still do do some of that But I have consciously limited that so that I can focus on other projects instead. I find having a policy where I could just tell people, I have this policy that I just invented myself is a really good way of saying no. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I've gotten past the point of feeling guilty about the no most of the time, most of the time. Because life really is too busy. And especially if you're a parent, the way you are. There's that too. I have this post where I shared all my tricks for saying now that I'm willing to.

38:27That was a bunch of templates you can use. And I'm excited to see this book in first writing because I've had to say no a lot. Yeah. Absolutely. One other thought along these lines is also an of all lesson. And it's interesting how much these insights stick in my head and make it make, like, change the way I operate. There's other piece of advice that are on networking because what you're talking about a little bit is like there's actually power in meeting people and networking essentially. And his advice is instead of networking, do things that are valuable and people will come to you and want to meet you versus you trying to meet them.

39:02And I found this to be absolutely true. I find it to be so true also. And also even just for attending networking events, like if you've done something valuable, those events are much easier because people want to talk to you about whatever the thing is, and you want to talk to them about their thing, and then all the other things that you didn't even know about each other. But I don't know, my other mode or MO for networking types of events is, I feel like if I meet one or two or three people at one of those events, who I truly, truly like, truly want to stay in touch with, truly want to be helpful to you.

39:45I consider it a success, and then I feel like I can go home or, you know, spend a lot of time in the hotel room after that. Whereas I have friends, I see it, like sometimes I'll go to one of these events, and I have friends who like make a point of meeting every single person who's there, and then we'll be talking a few months later, and they'll mention such and such person, and they'll be like, yeah, don't you remember they were at that event? And I have no idea who they're talking about. And so, like, yes, it would be probably like a more maximum value approach to meet every single person as long as you're there.

40:20But I don't believe that to be true if you're not wired that way. And I think the power of over a lifetime of just trying to have from every situation in life, like one or two people where the connections are true and deep. Over a lifetime, you have a network that you really love. All right, shoot. I could I go to more vans again. No, no, no, I, oh my gosh. I hope I'm not making it sound that way because the truth is I go to, you know, so few. Yeah, few, you know. This episode is brought to you by the Fundrise Flagship Fund. Full disclosure, real estate investing is boring. Prediction markets are exciting, meme coins or a thrill ride, even the stock market can swing wildly on a headline.

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41:52Find this information and more in the funds' perspective at fundrise .com -flash -flash -ship. This is a paid ad. I want to come back to tactics for introverts to be more successful. One common, I think, challenge introverts have is in big meetings with loud voices, having their ideas heard and even heard and actually acted on. Is there anything you've learned in those situations or tactics you've seen people implement that make them more successful in these situations? Yeah, so one very helpful tactic is to prepare in advance for meeting a couple of points you might want to make or questions you might want to raise.

42:36Don't assume you have to be spontaneous the way other people appear to be. If you're more of a preparer, you should prepare. And then also to give yourself a push to speak up early in the meeting, both because ideas that get advanced early 10 psychologically to be anchoring ideas that people pay more attention to. But also for you, you'll start to feel more like you're part of things, you're more at the center of things. People will be directing their eye contact towards you if you speak up early, and that becomes a kind of virtuous cycle. So that's one thing. Another is to realize that Yes, humans respond to the voice that's loudest and deepest and all that stuff.

43:24But as humans, we also respond in an unconscious kind of way to others who are speaking from a deep sense of conviction, like from a sense of truly believing what they're saying. And that is a muscle that you can strengthen. in. So I would say, even when you're not at the meeting, get into the habit of thinking, am I speaking from here? Am I speaking from a deep place? I'm not talking about voice right now. I mean, like, mentally, like when I say that I love this movie, do I really believe I love this movie? And people will know it if you're coming from that place so that you don't actually have to be the loudest person in the room in order for people to pay attention.

44:11I just did a short meditation retreat and somebody there had this really interesting way of doing exactly what you're describing where he visualizes this like lightning cable going from his instead of unplugging from his brain and playing into his heart and listening to that into your into where you're what you're saying. Yeah, it's just funny how that works. I think one of the main hacks to understand about how we humans relate to each other is how much we are picking up unconsciously a thousand different cues that we're sending out without even knowing that we are. And that's why speaking from that place makes such a difference.

44:56And so, yeah, as it can be helpful to think about your tone of voice and all that kind and your gestures and all of that kind of stuff, but I would start with what's actually there, like the substance. And again, this is a good example of why introverts are so valuable, is I feel like it's probably easier to do that, to be kind of talking from your heart and be authentic. This tip you shared of speaking early, I think is really interesting. It connects to, this is gonna sound crazy and weird, maybe. There's this whole pickup artist world of just like, I forget what the book was called, really wrote about mystery and this whole like the art of picking up women.

45:36And one of the tricks that they share with Guy and I did not do this. This is just an interesting story. Is if you're trying to like talk to someone in a bar, you should talk to them in the first five seconds of you seeing them and being thinking you should talk to them. Because once you keep thinking about it too much, you'll never do it. get super scary. You know, you only get scarier. I think that's true in meetings. You just sit there and keep aruminating. Oh my god, I'm going to say something. And the more you do it early, that easier it all is. Oh my gosh, it's so, so, so true. And it's so funny to apply it to that setting, but it makes total sense.

46:10You're actually, you reminded me of how I first discovered this technique. You know, it dates all the way back to I used to be a lawyer strangely like many years ago. And in law school, the way the classes were conducted, it was like, you'd be sitting in this gigantic amphitheater of people and the professor, which is calling you cold, and you had to answer all the questions. Yeah, exactly. Oh my God. And so my strategy to avoid that, which I did from like the first day was I would be one of the first people to raise my hands when they would ask for volunteers. years. And I figured, okay, if I've volunteered, there's 150 other people sitting here, they're going to call on those people.

46:53They're not going to call on me who just volunteered. So that was my strategy. And not only did it work in that way, but then I started to realize, especially if you were one of the first people who's ever spoken, like the professor kept referring back to things I had said, not because it was the smartest comment that had been made all year long, but just because it was one of the first ones. And so it sticks in the mind. So it's just one of those phenomena of human relations. And you also probably just like you're participating more and you end up being more successful in the class and get better.

47:26Yes. Yeah. So virtuous cycle again. Man, I love it. Okay. What about from the perspective of a manager or founder that has introverts working in the company? What advice can share to make the most of those of these folks that you probably might be not noticing or not paying attention to it. First of all, I would think about how you're running your meetings. So there's a statistic from the Kellogg School that in your typical meeting, you have three people doing 70 % of the talking. But it's your company and you want to make sure that you're actually hearing from everyone because you want to hear the best ideas.

48:03is. So I would do things like, you know, techniques like go around the room and make sure you're hearing from everybody. Or if you have a specific person who you know to be thoughtful and reticent, you might say to that person before the meeting, you know, hey, Bob, I know that you have a lot of great thoughts about such and such topic. Can I look to you to talk about that during the meeting. And now Bob is much more likely to like step up and talk about it. But also for many introverts, we like to be able to process our thoughts before we articulate them. So you've now given Bob advanced notice and he has more time to do the processing before speaking.

48:49Another technique you could use is like a kind of brain writing where you let's say everybody has to offer their thoughts on how to solve a problem. Have people write their ideas out on post -its, and then you collect all the post -its, and then you present them. Now, all the ideas are out there without anyone having head to jockey for time or space. It's just the ideas on their own. Your introverts are going to appreciate the following thing more, but it will benefit everybody to make sure that you're giving everybody space to put their head down and work in a state of flow without being interrupted.

49:32Like, that's huge for human productivity, but the introverts need it, especially. So if you can create times of the day depending on your workflow, where there are no meetings, or whatever, or people can work from home, it's on such and such a day or time, that can go a long way. Oh man, that super resonates. What I did when I had a regular job is I... Well, first of all, we had no meeting Wednesdays, which was like the day everyone got all the work done. Yeah. And then the other thing that I worked, then I have this post, like, a link to productivity tricks and one of them is around Deep Work.

50:06And I created this block on Wednesdays and Friday mornings for two hours that it was just work deep work time. And I labeled it do not book time over this, or I will slap you. And it worked. And I did not get in trouble. It. Be careful. Yeah, and I'm sure people appreciated the humor of it too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's genius. It's hard. It never said anything. Okay. So just to reflect back the tips, you shared, which are awesome, is one is just like actually asks everyone in the meeting just like, hey, do you have anything you want to add? Make sure everyone has a chance at least if they don't want to volunteer.

50:36Two is give people, like if someone you think is going to have good ideas, just tell them ahead of time, hey, I just want to make sure you share this idea or you have a chance to say something, please say something in the meeting. Three is give people a chance to kind of write ahead of time or in the meeting, just like create space for people just to write their ideas down, not have to like jockey for raising their hand and cheering something in that room. Hands in there, they're worked. And then force create deep work time. You have people chance to get into flow. Awesome. Okay. I want to go in a totally different direction.

51:14I know you're, I don't know if it's your second book, or third book is for kids, kids that are introverts. I have a kid, he's one and a half -ish. It's pretty clear to me he's an introvert. He likes, we just went up birthday party, he just went into the other room and played with toys. Yeah, if it just wants to observe for a while and then he starts to feel comfortable. Yep. Do you have any advice for raising an introverted kid? Yeah, I mean, we could talk about this for the whole entire time. Very easily. Okay, this will be the next spot, yes. Yeah, but what are some thoughts? Yeah, but I'll just give you a few top line thoughts.

51:49Perfect. The first thing I always say is to understand that Introverted and or shy children have we taken a second to distinguish between Introversion and China? No, we have no, okay. This is this applies to adults as well as kids, but Introversion is more about just like a preference to be in Less overstimulating environments, you know more mellow environments like less sound less noise fewer people, just fewer stimuli coming at you. And Shindness is more about the fear of social judgment. So it's like a, it's a kind of over exaggerated response to any situation where you're being judged could be new people at a party, could be the public speaking, could be an interview.

52:40And it's that you might have situation A, evaluative situation A that doesn't bother you and a evaluative situation B that really does, because people are complicated. So anyway, for children, whether they're shy, i .e. fearful of judgment, or whether they're introverted, i .e. I prefer to play in a malware way. The key for both of those kids is to understand that they will tend to have a longer runway that they travel down before they take off and fly. And this applies to a gazillion parenting situations. So like when it comes time to introduce your child to school, it is very likely from what you've just described to me.

53:31You said it's a boy, right? Yeah. Okay, so it's very likely that he is going to be a little bit slow to warm up at the beginning. and it might be that all the other kids get dropped off at the door of the school, but your child might really want you to walk him all the way down the stairs to his classroom. And that's okay. It's not okay for it to stay that way forever, but remember when we were talking about desensitization with public speaking, where you do things step by step by step. So you might like walk him to the classroom a few times and then say, okay, we're gonna do a game and tomorrow, I'm gonna walk you almost all the way, but the last two steps you're gonna do by yourself.

54:19And then you celebrate it with whatever little treat. And then the next day maybe it's not two steps, maybe it's five steps. And like little by little by little you are moving away and he's going down that runway. And eventually he will get to the point where he doesn't even remember that he needed you to walk him into school. And this is going to happen again and again when he's learning to swim, a lot of quieter children are uncomfortable with the water at the beginning. And you might feel as a parent like, what did I do wrong? Because I see all these other kids who are just jumping in the water and my kid's not doing that.

54:55So first of all, give yourself a quick break because this is natural. And second, you apply the same technique. You maybe get to the pool on a day when there aren't a lot of people around, so it's not over stimulating, quiet. And maybe the goal for that day is you're asking your child, do you think you can put your big toe in the water? And he puts his big toe in and yay, yay, yay, we're celebrating. And then you little by little go from there. And again, eventually you will not be able to tell the difference between that kid and the one who jumped in right away, longer runway. It's okay. Okay, so that was my first piece of advice.

55:40My second is self -confidence comes from mastery and not the other way around. So we tend to think, you know, we live in a culture that's like really big and self -confidence. So we see self -confidence as the key to everything else. But in fact, if you master a skill, you become self -confident as a result of that mastery. And this is true for all children. It's especially true for quieter children. Introduce them to a lot of activities and figure out which are the ones they really truly love and gravitate to and excel in and those will pay off great dividends in their not just in their mastery, but in their self -confidence.

56:27The third thing I would say is when they're feeling shy or uncomfortable, just talk about it openly in a light way. It's not a big deal. Share your own experiences. Let's say a child's afraid to go to a birthday party. You could say, oh yeah, I used to feel that way too. to really calm in, here's what I would do and I felt that way. And you know what, I still feel that way sometimes. And you could say, so what I like to do is I like to get to the party early before everybody else is there because then I feel more comfortable. So why don't we get there early today? And do you actually love to do that?

57:03Well, there you go. Yeah, and a lot of kids do best when they're one of the first people to arrive because then they feel like it's not overwhelming and they own the space. Yeah. But the key is that you're showing them that you understand and are cool with who they are and it just becomes no big deal. As opposed to many kids quickly absorb from their society the idea that there's something wrong with their shyness. So you're trying to undo that sense of shame and stigma and make it no big deal. That is really helpful. I forgot to ask you this question at the beginning, but I'm really curious. What percentage of people are introverts, whatever you label that along the spectrum?

57:46I've seen different studies. Some say it's 30%, some say it's 50%, but always higher than you think. It's basically one out of every two or three people. It's a lot. It feels like one of the core pieces of advice you're sharing is if you're an introvert, you don't need to become an extrovert. It's become more of who you are and you can be really successful in that. Yeah, I'm just going to add to that while also making sure that you acquire the skills that you need. Like I'm not saying never step outside your comfort zone or you know, don't acquire those skills if they're crucial to what you're doing.

58:24Like public speaking the way we were talking about. But bottom line the goal is to use those skills to be who you are. So, and that was an awesome point. So, it's not just like, okay, I don't need to be a good, I don't need to go out of my comfort zone ever. I'm gonna be the amazing CEO just being exactly ham. Your advice is not you can actually do, you need to build some stuff and build some of these goals. So, I do want to say like on the other hand, if the job you have taken on or the career you've taken on is one that requires you to wake up every morning feeling dread because you're going to be so far out of your comfort zone for so much of the day and so much of the week.

59:02Is it really worth it in that case? I mean, you basically want a life where you're waking up looking forward to what you're doing. Yes, with obstacles along the way, but more or less, you should feel like you're in the right zone. So the advice there is find work that connects with your introvertedness as much as you can? With your temperament. With your temperament. Same for extroverts. Yeah. I've heard from extroverts who will say, I work in this company of very introverted engineers and everybody's super quiet and heads down and I'm going crazy. So that's not right for you either. Yeah, and it's not like you can't.

59:40What this makes me think about is we did a test of all the PMs that are being built. I was there like a personality test. It's interesting how it was all over the map and there wasn't like you need to be this energetic charismatic person. You could be just a thoughtful, quieter person and those people are just as successful. Absolutely. A big part of your advice is figure out who you are and become more that, like connect to your introvertedness and you can be very successful there. Is there any advice just like what to do to do that? To like what should you be looking at? Which parts of you should you should be like, okay, this is where I'm strong and I should be leading into.

1:00:17And this is how I can become the best, most successful people in spite of my introvertedness. I mean, I might start by just asking, like, what do you like to do? How do you like to spend your time? What are you most interested in? Again that question of if you had no social or professional obligations, how would you be spending your time? Basically, you just need a really honest conversation with yourself of what you like to do. I love that it comes back to your kind of heuristics at the beginning of just, if you had a free weekend, how would you spend that weekend? Yeah. And then would you do like a pie chart of the activities to give you like, here's how I want, want to generally spend my time like 20 % social, uh, 40 % of my own.

1:01:02Is that like, when we think about it? You know, that's funny because like you were mentioning Tim Ferris before, um, and I remember when I was talking to him on his podcast, um, like he kept asking me like, okay, do you have a system for this and a system for that? And he's like, you know, I'm not a systems person the way you are. And like, I think his systems are super helpful. I just, I just tend to have a different approach. Like a more just intuition based approach or something, just like what, what feels right and what feels wrong. And if you ask yourself that simple question, I think, I think you know, that's actually like that alone isn't it connects to something I often try to do.

1:01:45just asking yourself, does this feel right or does this feel wrong? Some advice I recently heard along these lines, another way to ask this question is, what is my body saying? Yes. I was invited to do this talk and I was just like, I guess it could be good for the newsletter. If I do this thing. And like I actually used your piece of the trick you used if this were tomorrow, would I be excited? Like no, definitely not. And then she actually is like, here's another trick I use because I told her that's how I decided to do it. She was like, yeah, just like what is my body saying? And I was like, no, definitely not.

1:02:20And my body does not, like the idea of it not happening made me feel really relieved. Yeah, that tells you so much. And I guess what I would add to that is also, you need to distinguish between like the goal and what it would take to get to the goal. Okay, so I'm thinking of a young woman who I talked to after she gave a successful TED Talk and had a successful book and she was trying to figure out what the next step should be on the co -tails of these successes. And what she said in the course of our conversation is she knew that she could build a whole company around her ideas that were now out in the world, but she knew from experience that she had working at other companies that she wouldn't actually be happy having to wake up and run a team every day.

1:03:16And so she knew whatever I do, it's not going to be based on team management. That needs to not be part of the picture. And I thought that was a really useful way to look at it because it wasn't, I think she would have loved to actually have the company and put products out into the world that the company would have made, but she wouldn't have enjoyed her life to get to that goal. And so that question of, do I want to wake up in the morning doing what it takes to reach that goal? It is a really big one. There's two things that brings up for me. One is I had the co -founder of HubSpot on the podcast, which is like a $1 billion business at this point.

1:03:58And he had a conversation with this co -founder early on. He told him, I never want to manage anybody. and even up to today he has never managed any there's nobody under him at the company and he's still a co founder still operating on his own. Wow, that's fascinating that he could pull that off. Yeah, he's a fascinating guy. We're going to link to that episode. It's so interesting. The other is I made a role for myself with this new life along those lines that you just shared, which is I never want to have full time employees. Yes, me too. I did the exact same thing with my sub stack. No, none.

1:04:31Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I do have different people who I work with. Yeah, same. And including like my colleague Renee and I have been working together for like 10, 11, 12 years amazingly. But it's like a very loose type of working structure and that's what works for us. That's exactly how I operate. And it's like the major downside is people sometimes leave because they're not full time and there's like, oh, they're the cool full time role that they found. But I find people want this. they like, they preferred be a part -time flexible thing, not, this is their life, and this is all they're doing.

1:05:03I think a lot of people like that too. It's such a, but like there's always this temptation. Okay, what if one person, and they just do all so much for me, I think it also let me just how much work you take on, which is really healthy. It's so funny, because when I started my substack, I talked to one of my now colleagues, And I remember saying to him, you know, if I, if in a few months I wake up and my day consists of going to meetings, then I'm going to know the whole thing. I went down the wrong path and this was a mistake. So we have to build it in a way where it's not about that at all. Along those lines, I have a role of no meetings before 3 p .m.

1:05:42to reduce the number of meetings I have except for podcast episodes that we do sometimes in the mornings and that helps me there. Yeah. Funny enough. I when I started the newsletter and it started doing well, I was like, okay, this is awesome. What a life Just write a newsletter once a week and make a living inside this role I'll never do a podcast. I'll never do a course. I'll never do a conference. I'll never do a book and I've actually Crumbled and then almost all those things the only thing left is a book. That's really funny So those things that you ended up doing yeah, have you enjoyed them or Were your initial instincts correct?

1:06:16podcast I I'm very happy I did it. It's extremely cool to have the dynamic of the newsletter on the podcast, energy wise. It takes like energy. I have to like pull in the extravertedness side of me to. I get it. Yeah. Versus like I'm just gonna sit in the cafe and work on the newsletter. So yeah, it's mostly great, but I do have to like, I have to like get up to do it. You know, like hide myself up into it. I so so understand. I agree with you. And then the chorus I decided not to do it. It was like too much of that. So it's not doing that. The conference was awesome. Probably will do it again.

1:06:52And the book still have a resisted. Wouldn't the book be more along the lines of what you like doing? Like you can sit in your cafe. You think you think the problem is it just would be too much work. It's just like the load of as you know, I do. I think it took you seven years to write your first book. Is that a great. Oh, yeah. And then yeah. And then well, my second book was the one for kids. That didn't take quite as long. But then my third book, Bittersweet, was the same thing. I took like seven years and I just sent in a book proposal to my agent like two days ago for another book, which will undoubtedly take five or six or seven years.

1:07:27And I have wondered how I'm going to do it together with the substack, but I don't know. I feel very impassioned about both, so I think it's fine. Yeah, you have to really want it. Part of the reason I don't want to do book is all the talks I'd have to do to promote it after. I'll lie so understand. I think that's part of the reason I take as long as I do you to write them because I'm like dreading the promotional period. I'm just putting it off. Yeah man. Well, I'm impressed you're overcome that. I mean, for me, my dream always was to be a writer, so that was like the primary primary thing. So I'll overcome anything for that dream.

1:08:07I get that. Okay, Susan, we've covered Everything I've wanted to cover, is there anything else they think might be helpful to leave listeners with that, especially introverts that are trying to be successful, feel better about their, their way of the world. There is an, an phrase an aphorism assaying from Gandhi, who said, who is very shy and very introverted, by the way, like extremely. And his autobiography, very fascinating. He talks a lot about this. He was such a shy kid. He would run home from school after class, because he didn't want to have to talk to anybody. He was really like that his whole life.

1:08:49He was one of these people I was talking about who had a very deep conviction and then attracted other people who shared that deep conviction. And so he said, in a gentle way, you can shake the world. And I deeply believe this to be true. That's an excellent role model to think about in the back going back to your other exercise. Gandhi is an introvert. Did not know that. That's awesome. Susan, with that, we reached our very exciting landing round. Are you ready? I'm ready. First question. What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people? So, I was talking earlier about the psychologist, Mihali, she sent me high.

1:09:34He famously wrote a book about flow, literally called flow, and flow is the state of mind you get into and you're totally engaged in an activity and you're completely absorbed by it and you're feeling neither bored nor anxious, you're just in it. And the book just like describes all the research on the state and what it is and it completely changed my life. So I recommend that one all the time. And also the power of myth by Joseph Campbell. He was just a great mythologist and completely fascinating. And here is journey. Here is journey. Yeah, and he talked about the need to Participate joyfully in the sorrows of the world, which I really believe in which I know your third book was about.

1:10:25Yeah, that's right Bittersweet bittersweet I'm fine that Amazon or your local retailers The flowbook can you say his last name again because I think nobody actually knows that a pronounce it I love that you know it is It's yeah, cuz my agent taught me how it's okay You go cheek like your cheek. Oh my god. Send me high. So that's more or less how you pronounce it. Cheek, send me high. Oh my god. What a win for a tip right there. Okay, next question. Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed? I never have anything recent, but so my husband and kids and I just watched the sopranos recently.

1:11:05I had never seen it before and we loved it. And I also just recently saw the talented Mr. Ripley, which I know it's really old, but it's so, so good. Wow, I love how old these are. I know, I know. But like, I basically, like, anything that you see where there's just something dazzling happening in it, like Jude Law's performance in the talented Mr. Ripley is pure endazzlement, if that's a word. This connects the advice I often hear, which is don't read books that are either read books that are just like very new or like ten years or older. I think that's the advice. Like don't read books that are sort of because you want to only read things that have been that have survived and people continue to come back to quiet I think is definitely an example of that.

1:11:52Mm -hmm. Thank you. Yeah, I do think there's something about that like that Yeah, if it survived that long, it's it's for a reason. Yeah. Oh, oh, okay Okay, can I say something that will not be lightning roundish? Sure. Okay. Because what you just made me think of is there's this organization or institute. It's called the tugboat institute. I think it's the official name. And anyway, it's basically, it's four founders of companies who are not interested in starting their company and then making a quick exit three years later. These are people who are trying to build something evergreen and something built to last.

1:12:36And so this is an organization for the founders who have this mentality. And I've talked to the head of this organization. I'm actually going to be speaking there, June or July. And he told me that they have tons of introverts in this group of CEOs. Like I do think there's something about that mentality of seeking the timeless and the evergreen that is one of those under appreciated strengths. That's awesome. That sounds like a sweet place to be. Yeah. Hopefully not too many extroverts get in there and they're just like, what the hell is going on here? I don't want to be here. Okay. I'm going to keep going with lightning round.

1:13:15Yeah. See? Okay. Is there a favorite product you recently discovered that you really love whether it could be an app, could be something you bought, physical, something laying around the house? I will say the art of roasted vegetables. I've started roasting my vegetables with tons of spices of all kinds and it's such a revelation. It's not a gadget. You just roast them in a cookie -cooking chic sort of thing. Yeah, I just toss them with olive oil and maybe some lemon juice and almond slices or curry or whatever I feel like doing. And it's like candy. So good. Interesting. So this is just like an easy way to eat healthy and taste good.

1:13:58Yep. What a life chip. I just read this book, Good Energy. I don't know if you've heard of this. It's about what foods give you good energy and what foods are bad energy and it's based on metabolic health and blood sugar in which one spiked you and healthy and you're eating good energy food. Yes, I think we can take away. Okay. Two more questions. Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to find really useful and work or in life, maybe share with friends and family? Yeah, I mean, I will give the one that was the dedication to you and the inspiration for Bittersweet. This is a quote from Leonard Cohn, who said, there's a crack in everything.

1:14:40That's where the light gets in. I love that. I want to make a big poster out of all these motto some day. Yeah, you really said. You probably have amazing ones collected. So many. Oh, man. Final question. You have a very active sub -stack. I'm very impressed with how often you publish. It's very hard. Where can people find it and just what should people know about the substack that you've started? Oh, well, it's called thequietlife .net. So that's where you can find it. And it's basically a place through people who want to live on the realm of the, in the realm of the quiet and thoughtful and sensitive and bittersweet.

1:15:21I've kind of been exploring that realm for 20 years and this is a place to be with other people who are in that realm also. And so, you know, some of the time I'm posting things about tips along the lines of what we've been talking about for this podcast. And sometimes it's more, I don't know, just like sharing art and poetry and things. So like tomorrow I'm posting and exclusive excerpts from Sahil Blum's new book, The Five Types of Wealth, about how much time do you have remaining with your loved ones, and how are you spending that time? So it's, I would say it's like dedicated to how to live a good life from the perspective of the quiet and the thoughtful and sensitive.

1:16:11Sounds like a wonderful place, quarter of the internet. I had people find it just so we can LinkedIn and show notes too. Yeah, so thequietlife .net or I guess if you go to Substack and just look up my name, you could probably find it there. But yeah, it's become a huge labor of love because it's a way... I'm able to write to people who have been reading my stuff for years, but now we have a dialogue and a community. And I think people really feel like having a place to go that is a very specific wavelength that you can't find elsewhere can be something special. And I know I feel that as the person writing into it.

1:16:57Okay. Final question then is how can listeners be useful to you? I usually ask how do people find your online? We just talked about that. So I'm skipping that question. How can listeners be useful to you? I don't know. I guess I would say, you know, the the sub stack that I'm doing is my is my baby and my labor of love. So if you want to per take of it, I would love to have you there. Awesome. Susan, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for having me. Absolutely. I'm a pleasure. So nice. I really enjoyed it. Just introverts connecting. Yes, exactly. Okay, bye everyone. Thank you so much for listening.

1:17:32If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or a leaving review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny's Podcast dot com. See you in the next episode.