Redefining success, money, and belonging | Paul Millerd (The Pathless Path)

26:50You know what else? The workflows just make sense. There's the built -in AI tools, the on -canvas collaborating, a centralized workspace, the reuse of assets across sites, the seamless client handover, and that's not all. Find out more at wix .com slash studio. I think when people might hear some of these professions like, I'm going to maybe I'll become a therapist, maybe I'll become an online writer person, maybe I'll start a business. It may feel like that assumes you'll make less money doing these things, but in my case, and I'm curious if it's in your case, I make significantly more doing what I do now.

27:26I try not to talk about the income of this stuff, but it's significantly more than I made it. Airbnb is a very senior product leader, and I feel like that often happens. You discover a way to do something you love and also make a lot of money. I think it's easier to make money in a sustainable long -term way doing stuff you actually like doing. It sounds so simple, but it actually would have been really hard for me to stay on my previous path. Now, in my case, it was not until my fifth year that I came close to the salary I left. For the first three years, I really optimized for exploration, creativity, just like getting to know myself again.

28:09I made 50 grand the first year because I was freelancing, then I made like 30 grand, 24 grand, and then 30 grand. So I was really optimizing for getting to know myself. I dramatically lowered my costs of living, and that is one path. But this year, I'll make more than I ever made. That is mind -blowing to me because every single day of this year has been absolutely delightful. I've spent abundant time with my wife and my daughter. It's so crazy. Now, if I had stayed in my previous path, I'd be making a lot more than I make now. But that path was not viable for me for becoming. I'd be so frustrated right now if I had to go back to work.

29:04In eight months, I know you have a four -month -old. Wait till eight months, they're so fun to hang out with. You talked about this lower, spend -lower expense life. What other tips and tricks do you have for people to create this space where they can continue living and paying the rent while exploring and wandering and exploring these things? Is it cut down on expenses? Is there anything else that one can do? I've talked to so many people at this point. I've seen all sorts of things. I've seen people move abroad. I've seen families with kids in a mortgage sell their house and decide to live in a RV.

29:46I've seen people dip into their retirement. I've seen people ask apply for grants and get those. I've seen people apply for loans. A big move that a lot of people do is turn their current job into a contract job, which a lot of employers are a lot more open than people would think. Because the contractor is very easy to fire, you can fire a contractor in a day. So if the company's struggling, boom, you're gone. There is more risk, but if you're known in the company, it can actually be a somewhat stable path to create more space in your life. You say, hey, I want to work three days a week. I want to be a contractor.

30:26Here's exactly what I want to do. Are you open to this? And as soon as you're a contractor, they can't tell you where to work. Right. You can develop a relationship and they can ask you to work in a certain place, but they don't have control over where you work. A trick that I found really useful actually for helping me feel comfortable about taking time off and yet taking six months off and then then it ended up being a year off because I kept trying to figure out what is the thing I wanted to do. The way that I felt good about that is I set a budget of here's the runway that I'm going to give myself.

30:58Here's how much it's going to cost to do this for six months. Here's the runway I'm going to give myself. I'm just going to burn through this money just with the bet that it'll lead to something interesting. And that made me and my wife also just feel like, okay, we're going to lose all that money probably, but the bet is it's going to lead to something really great. Yeah, I love this. I think this is something I've been thinking about a lot lately and I've actually been trying to write something around this, which is that naming what you're spending money on or coming up with agreements like that.

31:29You're sort of like saying, this is money I'm investing in my life MBA. Right. Because if somebody says I'm going to Stanford Business School, generally you'll receive positive praise. Oh, that's awesome. But what they're really doing is not working for two years and spending $150 ,000 to $200 ,000 and not earning a salary. And then to me, it was really interesting to look back at my path. Now, the first three years of my path, I broke even. But compared to being in business school, people thought business school was way better of a path for me. People were judgmental in my path, critical of my path, insulted me, projected their insecurities on me.

32:19How could you do this? This is so crazy. What's your plan? So coming up with these reframes is super powerful. One powerful one that worked for me was consider it a gift from your former self. Right. So on the consulting path, I did like it for a while, but at the end, I didn't like it. I was sort of just grinding through going through the motions. I was good at it, but I really didn't want to be doing it if I had choice. And so I earned a decent income doing it. So would I like gift that to my future self to be happier? Yeah. So now that I'm in the present, receive that gift and be like, oh, thank you, former self for working that job.

33:07It's interesting. I could also flip it from the other way. Have your future self as returning to, hey, here's a here's some money to spend to help become who I become. Yeah, exactly. So I imagine not everyone ends up on a beautiful, amazing new life. They are like, goddamn, I don't have anything to show for it. Expand all this cash. Imagine there's stories of that. Is there anything you could share around those stories and how to maybe either avoid them or be okay with them? I think there are surprisingly few stories of that. I think that is people's fear of what might happen. What I've seen in reality as soon as people are without an income or without a job, they spur into action.

33:52People were far more creative than we give ourselves credit for. Like having a child, we have no idea what we're doing when they come up. But it makes perfect sense that you're going to figure everything out because you have to. You have no choice. Right. And so the ingenuity and creativity of people is soon as they sort of like bet on themselves and go off into the wilderness is far more than people expect. And it also has to do with regrets. People do not regret the things they do. They regret the things they didn't do. Right. And the reason for this is if you've made a mistake, you can actually take action to correct it.

34:39But if you didn't do the thing that you're regretting, there's nothing you can do except do the thing. It reminds you of a quote that you have in your book that I have here. The secrets of doing good research and I think it's related to this of finding any path that a battleist path is always to be a little under employed. You waste years by not being able to waste hours. Yeah. And I wonder if you've found this too. Sometimes the best way for me to write is to go for a walk or to take a couple days off and just sort of like reset. Like creative work can't be forced a lot of time. And increasingly a lot of work is creative work.

35:23Right. Your work at Airbnb was ultimately creative work. You're creating new products and offerings in a new whole new conception of an industry. Right. You're making stuff up. Right. A lot of times like I think people get fried in these companies because they're not actually given the schedules and the support systems around what actually enables creativity. Yeah. Absolutely. Although I find with writing also there's the benefit of the opposite of I'm just going to sit here and write and I'm not going to give myself a chance to go walk around. I'm just going to keep writing even if it's terrible because it'll maybe lead to something.

36:07Yeah. And even that though a lot of times what ends up on the page surprises you. Yeah. Right. So you do need a certain sense of openness to let that emerge. So kind of along the same lines. Another important concept that you talk about in your book for finding this pathless path is just this idea that it's not ever like this all or nothing.

36:34I'm quite job after years of awakening and safely testing changes kind of eliminating risks along the way. So years before I left and I'm curious if you had a similar experience. I was starting to read personal personal development books. I was reading Tim Ferriss. I was doing these small experiments like coaching on the side helping people with the resumes, volunteering, helping people with careers. And so I was writing too. I was writing for fun on for a with no goals. And all these things make perfect sense now. And even looking back further I was always tinkering on the internet and all these things fit my story perfectly now.

37:16But I didn't know why I was doing them at the time. But each one sort of gave me the confidence to be like, okay, I don't love my job. But all these random things I'm doing on the side like writing an article and posting it on medium and LinkedIn and the people I'm meeting. This is really interesting and energizing. I'm going to pay attention to that energy. Something is there. And when I quit my job I didn't really have a plan for how to deal with that. But I had experienced enough of this positive energy. I was like, I want to chase that. I want to go after that. That's exactly what I found.

37:55So let me tell my story briefly on this. Some advice I got when I went on my sabbatical that ended up being incredibly powerful is essentially what you just said, which is when you're doing stuff during a some period of time off, pay really close attention to what gives you energy after you do the thing. Like say, you have a call. Did that give you energy or do that SAP you have energy? Do you feel like more energized or you feel like, I'm tired now. So it's like after calls you make after things you do with friends after some kind of hobby you're trying to do after you write some stuff. Just like pay really close attention to what energizes you with SAPs you have energy.

38:31And then my whole strategy was just do more of the things that energize me and do less of the things that de -energize me. So in my case, I thought I wanted to do some advising or consulting. I found after every advising call, I was de -energized. I just like, no, I do not enjoy this as much as I thought. But after writing and putting a piece out, I was like, wow, this is really cool. Even though writing is very hard and there's a lot of de -energizing moments, oh, broadly, it's like, wow, this is cool. People seem to really value this. I started doing that more. I thought I wanted to start a company, but that kept sucking me of energy as I was working on ideas.

39:04So that alone was really, really powerful. And it sounds like really simple advice, but it's really in fact, it's hard too. I think the pull to create a company when you leave a big tech company is so powerful. And what you're saying is sort of crazy. You're saying, I just feel good writing. I'm going to follow that. Yeah, it was not a popular path amongst my friends and family. And I think the root of that is you're triggering insecurities in them. You're doing something they weren't allowed to do at your age. The thing I found really helpful there, some another friend gave me this advice. Just tell people you're tinkering.

39:46When they ask you, what are you working on? Just tinkering. I'm tinkering with some writing because that's something about that word makes it sound like, okay, cool. It's delightful. And cool. Tinker away. I feel like that did not work with my parents, but yeah, trying different things. I think I always tell people you need a boomer compatible story for what you're up to. As just like, just give them something. Just say, I'm an entrepreneur or I'm a business owner. That totally resonates. I would be excited about that if I was a boomer. In the book, you also talk about taming fears. So we talked about a few of these things and just the power of taming some of these fears that you have.

40:30There's success, the fear of not being successful, of money, of belonging, of loneliness, and of health. You just talk about either all of those or any of those have just quite some important to tame those fears and then how one goes about taming these fears. Yeah. So a big source of inspiration around this is Tim Paris's fear setting. And he basically forces you to write down, what are your fears? How could you mitigate these? But more powerfully, the second part is in your framing them around action. And so he reframes like, what is the cost of inaction? And that was really powerful for me. And it sort of exposed like a lot of the costs and the current state of what I was doing.

41:15Right. And so actually, I want to thank you. It's funny. You message me right as I was listening to a podcast. You were on. I think it was the one with David Perl. I slid into your DMs. But I was listening to your podcast and you were talking about hiring a community manager. And this is actually something I've done in the past few weeks. And I think I was scared to commit to the community because like I didn't want to create a job for myself. And one thing I've realized is that I'm scared of creating a job for myself. But I sort of reframed the cost of inaction. Like, what's the cost of inaction is like, if I don't actually hire someone, I'm going to drain all my creative energy.

42:06And that's like an existential risk to this path. Right. And so that's one example of I'm always thinking about these things and that enabled me to take very quick action. I'm not. But I think it was helpful to hear from you. You were like, I'm not a community manager. And this is a big aha for me because I launched my community at the beginning of this year. I suck at community management. I'm like, not good at it. But I found somebody that actually was good at it. And I was like, Oh, there are people that like this and are good at it. So that's one thing. I think more broadly though, is some fears don't disappear.

42:43So that's a very like specific project base fear. existential fears around health, death, importance, money. They don't really go away. I think the great thing about this path for me is that you can't pretend like they don't exist. They sort of just punch you in the face. You'll wake up one day and you'll have an existential breakdown of like, what the heck am I doing? Is this sustainable? This is so silly. Am I going to run out of money? Next year are my book sales going to tank. And so the longer I've been on this path, those big worries turn into these like small little like daily things that pop up.

43:30And I'll sort of have a conversation with my fear. And I'll say, Oh, we're worrying about money today. Okay. I see you. Yeah, that's real. Yeah. I don't know if we can solve that. But yeah, six and a half years. Let's keep going. Let's see if it works. Yeah, that's the thing that makes me feel better every time something like that comes up is like, it's work this long. Probably going to work for a lot longer. There's this concept of Lindy. Of just the time something is going to last as usually as long as it's already lasted. And so that always makes me feel better. Like the main thing I think about is, am I going to run us stuff with a newsletter to write about?

44:08And it's been four years now. Like, that's probably going to keep going for at least four more years. It's very important to like dance with your fears and really like get in with them. If I'm afraid of not making money, right? Like, it's very reasonable that book sales will fall. And so I don't know if we can sustain our lifestyle. I'm like, what I have set up two, three years down the road. But taking that fear and saying, okay, I'm going to solve that and make that fear go away by getting a job is like off the table. So I have no choice but to like actually just be like, yeah, that fear is going to be here.

44:47It's going to be part of my life. And we're going to have to just deal with it. Along those lines of there, a path you took that was a big failure or didn't work out, something that you thought was going to be a big opportunity and wasn't the first 10 years of my career. I just kept jumping from job to job. I think I was looking for my current path in job -shaped containers and I couldn't find it. And I just so desperate to like find a really good situation. And there were all sorts of circumstances like bosses who hired me kept quitting immediately after I would join layoffs, all sorts of random things that happened.

45:25They were very weird. And yeah, I just sort of like kept searching. So I've been comfortable with trying things and starting new things and experimenting for a long time. And so one frame I have, I call it ship quit and learn, which is what is the quickest way I can ship something designed to quit. But as soon as I ship it, I learned about what to do next. And so this is how I started my podcast. I just said I'm going to do five episodes. I stole this from Tim Ferriss as well. I'm going to do five episodes. I'm going to see how it feels. And this was one of these things super energizing. I love how I feel after podcast conversations.

46:13I'm going to keep doing it. I wasn't aiming at success, but it was like I know I can keep doing the podcast in my newsletter because I had that experience, that feeling from it. But there are things I've tried that I'm like, yeah, not again. A couple consulting and advisory type things early on in my path. I was like, whoa, I need to build in protectors such that I don't take a gig like this again. I can access something you said earlier, which I super resonate with, which is you want to avoid creating jobs for yourself that you don't enjoy with this path. There's so many things you could be doing and so many polls that often like, oh, like for me, it's like writing a book is always this thing that's out there.

46:56Actually, starting a podcast was one of these for a long time. Like I don't want to start a podcast. Life is good. I got this awesome newsletter. Things are going great. Why would I want more work? Eventually I crumbled and I did it and here we are and I'm happy I did. But there's all these other things that are always like, I should do these things, but I think it's really important to pay attention to what do you not enjoy and don't do that. Like it's easy to create bad jobs for yourself. A really clear example that is finding a niche that you don't enjoy, spending time on like in this life of like writing about something you don't actually care about or podcasting about something you don't care about.

47:30You just created a job for yourself. You hate why would you do that? And so comes back to paying attention to what gives you energy. Yes, so I've created a lot of slack in my life. So I'd say 95 % of my days I cannot work. So I don't do meetings. I don't really have employees or anything like that. I have contractors, but I hire contractors for very specific roles. Right. And I create systems such that we can do asynchronously and of course I'll have conversations with them if they want to jump on a call. But I optimize for like people that want asynchronous and work on those specific things. So I'm just very conscious of that.

48:15I think one challenge I have now is I've created so many things that I'm doing a few things really well and then sort of ignoring a lot of them. So I actually feel like I'm in this evolution right now of like trying to figure out what comes next. So we haven't even talked about this, but I started this business strategy you early on in my path because I wanted to productize my consulting. And one of the consulting projects I loved early on was training people on consulting skills. I did a training program for consulting firm in Boston. And I was like, ooh, I could turn this into an online course.

48:56And that is slowly built and evolved and I do workshops now with companies. And that made most of my money for the first from years like two to five when I started moving away from just like project -based consulting. And so the game I was playing was make money from that. Like don't focus on it too much. Spend minimal time. Don't try to maximize first success. Create a self -paced course because I'm not interested in making more money in a cohort -based course because I just don't want to spend the time. And then use all the abundant time to like write and explore or create podcasts, spend time with my wife and do all the like non -work experiments.

49:41See how I feel and write about it. Now I'm making money from the work I love, which is very weird. I'm going to make, I'll hit soon about $200 ,000 made for my book, which is like mind -blowing. I published a book completely on my terms about what I love and loved the process of it. It's so crazy. And so now I'm building a community around that. That's really fun. I'm doing the podcast. I have some sponsors around that. And so like that's sort of taking over. I still have this strategy you though. So now I'm trying to figure out how to like unwind some of these things. I'm actually exploring trying to find somebody that might want to start their own pathless path.

50:28Like a strategy consultant that wants to leave that world that like wants to be an operator on this business. So if you're listening, I've recently come to terms with like this might be the path forward. But yeah, it's a it's a it's a constant journey of protecting your time, creating that space, going down projects you want to execute, but then stepping back and like, okay, I have all this maintenance I'm doing. How do I outsource this? Eliminate it, restart, recreate. And I think this path is really just a commitment to constant reinvention, which is really, really hard. And you shouldn't do it unless you get some satisfaction out of like personal reflection in that journey.

51:09For someone I may want to help you with that program, what's the best way to reach out to you if they're just like, oh shit, this is a cooperative. Yeah, Twitter, Paul at strategy .co, or I'm very easy to find my emails all over the place. Yeah, we'll link to it in the show notes too. Just like a couple more questions. I feel like one criticism of this path is, is there anyone left to actually do work at companies and build things and scale if everyone ends up being on this pathless path creating content starting their own companies? Do you have any thoughts on just that side of things? I don't buy that because I've met most people and most people are like hell no when they hear about my life.

51:49Like, I think it's an interesting critique.

51:59I also the growth in the economy from 2005 to 2015 in the labor market came from alternative work arrangements. So if you search David Demings work on this, it's pretty compelling. Right now, we don't really count non -traditional work that well. So it's really hard to get good data on this. But even the way companies are treating their internal talent, it's much more project -based, people are shifting around moving to different roles a lot quicker. I think that's going to continue. So you could make an argument that people will actually be able to slot into companies more easily in the future.

52:36Like right now, companies under exploit the creator economy and the freelance economy because they're so tied to like you have to hire somebody through a full -time job. So I think there's sort of two sides to that is like one. Most people would hate my life. And two, like the world is becoming more gigafide. So it could go back the other way actually. I really like that advice. Paul, is there anything else you want to leave listeners with to maybe start down this pathless path or any other piece of advice before we get to a very exciting lightning round? I think the key thing is that doesn't get talked about enough is it might be hard and it might suck, but it might be worth it.

53:27And I think that's a hard reframe for people because people will say like, well, I'm worried about like not knowing what I'll do or not making money in all these things. And it's like, yeah, I felt like shit after quitting my job. But man, I am so glad I did it because it enabled me to now know that I don't have regrets about trying this and figuring it out. And a lot of people that do go back to their jobs are so much happier because they know I tested that. I found my boundaries. I need more stability. It's not this like quit your job and get rich. Pitch. It's very much like if you're somebody that has a sense that there's something more, there probably is.

54:15And it might be worth exploring. What's the next step you recommend someone take to start exploring this pathless path? What's something they could do today or tomorrow? Oh, read my book. Perfect. So I'm very committed to creating resources for people around this. My podcast is all conversations of people on an unconventional path and sort of the inner game of work. And I don't talk about tactics and outcomes as much as really just like, how does it feel? How do you how do you deal with that? Things like that. And so I do that in my newsletter, my podcast, et cetera. But yeah, just like find people that are on interesting paths and ask them about their lives.

54:59One interesting thing I've had happen to me over the past few years is I've just met a much more wider diversity of people. Like I'm friends with like people that work at restaurants and like work part time and work weird schedules and work nine months of the year and take three months off. And now it just feels so much more normal what I'm doing because before all I knew was full -time workers because I was working all the time. That's all you're all you're surrounded by. So yeah, try to find the the weirdos. Awesome. And for folks that want to check out your book, should I just Google the pathless path path .com.

55:36I just moved over everything last month. Okay, great. And then we'll link to all of these things in the show notes. With that, Paul, we reached our very exciting lightning round. Are you ready? I am ready. What are two or three books that you recommended most to other people? Yeah, one is called the great work of your life. Sounds like a cheesy title. But that's actually a good resource for people that want to hear about people from history over the past like several hundred years, different eras of people that really did design their life around work. And it's really interesting. And that was a great book.

56:16A second book I'd recommend. I actually really like Luke Burgess's book, Wanting. That was another great personal story slash deep dive into a nerdy topic. That's like my favorite kind of book. That's the book I wrote, which was like personal memoir plus nerdy deep dive. And Luke Burgess's is really good to more from a tech perspective because he went down the startup path as well. But that's a great book. That was my favorite read of the year. What is a favorite recent movie or TV show? I struggle to answer this because I'm not watching much TV. I did watch the Anthony Burdene documentary. That was excellent.

57:00That like talk about a pathless path and the ups and downs and the struggles and the dark side of it. Man, that that person was bringing forth what is inside of him and grappling with his demons at the same time. That was a powerful story worth watching. Do you have a favorite interview question that you like to ask when you interview say contractors or anyone else you work with or hire? I'm always curious about like what makes you come alive? I want to work with people that are alive and connected and inspired. So the two people I'm working with right now, one's a podcast producer in Poland, but he's doing a bunch of other stuff around video.

57:43And he's like super energized. He used to be a lawyer reinventing himself. The other person is also a former finance person in India. And she's two years into the self employment journey. She's like writing and exploring all these ideas. So yeah, I'm always looking for that energy first and skills second. Is there a favorite product you've recently discovered that you love? I really love the new and a travel stroller. Super convenient for traveling. We don't have the travel stroller, but we have the new and a car. Yeah, yeah, we have that one too. If it's so we've we've brought that around the world that's been super convenient.

58:24And then more on the tech side, I just got into the eSIM game. That was that was amazing. And then like chat GPT, I just created my own GPT to do podcast show notes automatically for me today. It took me an hour to train it. And it is like incredible. So that's amazing. That's awesome. We're I don't know folks know, but there's a Lennybot .com site that uses all of my podcast transcripts and use letter to have a little bot. They could ask questions too. That's working actually shocking me. Well, we're going to try using the new GPT thing that they just launched. We can kind of train your own GPT.

59:00And that'll be fun. And actually a podcast listener reached out to me and offered to help build this thing. So that's a huge success story from this podcast. Next question. Two more questions. Do you have a favorite life motto that you find yourself coming back to sharing friends finding really useful and work or in life? One coming alive over getting ahead. That's something I keep coming back to. I'm default skeptical of chasing achievement. And I use this to remind myself that it is about that personal energy versus extrinsic outcomes. I'm very convinced from my own life experience that the extrinsic outcomes aren't going to do a ton for me.

59:49Sure, I need to make enough money. But when I'm in extended states of like feeling alive and connected to everything I'm doing in my life, that is that's it. Like, and I basically repeated this mantra to myself right before rejecting the book deal. It's like, I did not feel good in the conversation with the people. They talked down to me. They told me that like I probably wouldn't succeed. And it's like, coming alive or getting ahead. I don't need their prestige. Final question. You've been podcasting. I think for six years, what's your best piece of advice for someone that wants to start podcasting has maybe already been doing podcasting like myself for being successful or anything on those lines?

1:00:36Yeah, I think if you want to podcast to make money, it's probably not something you should get into. Like, even if you have an audience, it's probably not the best way. I think if you have a massive audience, it can work. But like, it takes a really long time. Like podcasts is the ultimate long game. So you need to find some intrinsic connection to what you're actually doing. If you don't love the conversations or the format you're doing, like, don't do it. But yeah, I would recommend more people start podcasts. I'm against like the New York Times says there's too many podcasts, but I take the opposing view.

1:01:14I don't think there's that many podcasts. If you ask people in their personal life out of tech bubbles, how many people in your life have a podcast? Now in Austin, a lot of people podcasts. But yeah, most people don't have a podcast. Even if you do something like interview parents or anything, like it's such a cool creative thing. It's free. It's free and you can send it to everyone in the world. Podcasts and newsletters are incredible innovations. Let it rip. You had to get permission to do these things 10, 10, 15 years ago. It's so great to be alive in today's world. I feel like when people say there's too much of say newsletters, too many podcasts, my answer is always there's always room for better newsletters and better podcasts.

1:02:00If you can deliver more useful, valuable, interesting stuff, people are going to pay attention. You just after the bar just keeps rising is the challenge. Yeah, it's also like do it for the sake of itself. Do it for the creative act. The creative act can be super meaningful in and of itself. I've lost money in my podcast over the lifetime of it. Love it. I don't care. I'm going to keep doing it. And also the best stuff often comes from just doing it for yourself and then realizing no other people might find this interesting. Yeah, I didn't start getting podcast feedback into the last two years when it started growing a lot more.

1:02:39I was sort of just doing it into the void. Speaking of that, Paul, we've been on our own Pathless Path. I feel like we're going to send a number of folks on their Pathless Path to final questions. We're can folks find you online if they want to reach out and learn more about what you're sharing and your journey. And I can listen to you. Yeah, so I've been compiling a lot of my more recent stuff under Pathless Path .com that will link you to my podcast newsletter community and book. And I'm always willing to gift my book to anyone in the world who wants it. Just email me. I'll even send you a printed copy if you don't have the money to do it.

1:03:21And I'm always happy to send bulk orders to people that want to gift it and do book clubs or things like that. And happy to send it at the author rate, which is about $4 per book. And yeah, what help? I think, yeah, I am starting to explore the potential of selling my strategy, you business or finding like an owner operator who might want to get some sort of profit sharing or something like that. It'd be interesting if there are former consultants that might be interested in something like that. I don't know. I'm so bad at asking for help. I think if you want to share my book, that would be cool because it is pretty neat to make money doing something from something I'm really proud of.

1:04:08Go buy the Pathless Path available. I'll online bookstores. I imagine. Paul, thank you so much for being here. Amazing. Keep going on your path to. I'm really inspired by how you're approaching your path in sharing your reflections to. I appreciate that. Bye everyone. Adios. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts Spotify or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or a leaving review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at linniespotcast .com.

1:04:47See you in the next episode.