The grief, loneliness, and burnout sweeping through the tech industry right now | Molly Graham

27:10And I have a lot of beef to pick with all the AI branded layoffs out there because they're bullshit. Like they're not about AI. Like they're about badly run companies, slapping an AI label and getting some share points from that versus saying, whoops, we made we hired too many people. and they're propagating this fear narrative that is like all these jobs are your job is going away, right? There is no job on the other side. One of the best. So I took over this podcast, which, you know, called Work Life, and it's let me have all these really fun conversations with people. And one of the best conversations I had was with this journalist named Manoush Somorodi, and she has been a journalist for 30 years.

27:50You want to talk about an industry that people have been predicting the death of for 30 years, right? Journalism. And Manoush has done everything. Like she started the BBC and she was super early in audio and she did this like crazy crypto audio podcast. And she's also like she's the host of Ted Radio Hour. So Manoush over 30 years has built a very successful career in an industry that is being constantly disrupted. And from talking to her, I basically walked away with this really interesting question that is totally different than what would you do if you believed your job was going to disappear?

28:27It was, what would you do if you believed your job was always going to exist? It was just going to look completely different every six years. And I just kind of wish that was the conversation we were having about all the jobs in tech and honestly, all the jobs that are theoretically going to get taken by AI, which is like the form is definitely going to change. But until we have real evidence, what if we believe that they're not going away? They're just going to reinvent themselves. That is awesome advice. And that's exactly what's been happening so far. Yeah. Yeah. There's always this fear that, OK, but now it'll be different in X years.

29:09But that is actually exactly what's been happening. Engineering exists. Different job. There's actually more demand than ever for engineers. Exactly. Your data said that. And I was like, thank you for publishing this data, Lenny. before we get into the the advice kind of how it's evolved there's a couple things i want to share which touch on things you mentioned about how people are feeling so i'll share these images on the screen as we talk about this of just people's feelings right now just to kind of come back to that point um so we looked we did the survey for two years now in a row of how tech people are feeling and how they're feeling about ai and all these things and so we have uh a trend now over time how things are changing.

29:49And we look at burnout and optimism. And in 2025, 44 % of people said they feel burned out. This year, 55 % of people said they are burned out. That's a huge jump. That's 10 % increase in a year of people feeling burned out. And it makes sense. As you said, you're basically now expected to do more work. we're not probably more money and now it's just like okay well you got all these ai why aren't you getting more done look at all these other teams moving so much faster we're screwed we're gonna go out of business we gotta move fast so so it makes sense i mean i love that you do that survey because i also think i learn a ton from it every time you've published it um and it also is just like a great reality check about how people are feeling because literally what your survey says is more than half the people are feeling burnt out which is like nuts and also yeah i believe it And I think, you know, I mean, burnout comes from a lot of different places and can mean a lot of different things to people.

30:49But to me, what I read inside that data was like, number one, like, emotions are tiring and there is a lot of exhaustion trying to understand what's going on in. I mean, the rate of change right now is nuts, both in terms of like, obviously, the technological change. But I actually think the narrative change is also pretty exhausting for people like, oh, this month, this is important. Oh, next month, this, you know, like there's a thrash inside of that that's pretty tiring. You know, I was emailing with a friend at OpenAI and she was like, it's taken us literally six months to go from sort of this token maxing, like everybody, like aggressive productivity, like use AI everywhere to a conversation that's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

31:39Like, is this actually making a difference? Because it's very expensive, you know? And she's like, six months. That's all it took. And so if you're sitting inside that, it means six months ago, they were like, use AI all the time, every day, everywhere. And now they're like, are you doing it well enough? You know, and Hillary Gridley said the same thing where she was like, you know, six months ago, everyone was like, how do I get people to use AI? And now they're like, how do I get people to use AI? Like, stop using AI so badly, you know? And it's like that six month thrash, often much faster than that, is tiring for people.

32:13The grief is tiring, let alone like I think that feeling which you mentioned in your survey of like, I'm going to be expected to do more for the same amount of pay. Like that's exhausting. Like that, I think people feel taken advantage of, you know, and like, what is in this for me? Like, why is it fun for me? What's the opportunity for me? And I think particularly at bigger companies, it feels almost adversarial sometimes, you know, where like, you know, I get why it's good for our bottom line, but remind me why that's good for me. That actually touches on one of the biggest findings in this survey, which is that, first of all, half of people that filled it out are feeling the happiest they've ever felt.

33:01This is an important point we need to make is not everybody's feeling this fear and sense that it's all doomed, that actually a lot of like half of people are feeling like they're having the best time of their life in their career and they're so excited about all the things going on. Like you may not feel that you may if you're not that you may not believe that. But from what I can see around me, many people are very excited, even though they're working harder than they've ever worked. They're also the happiest they've ever been about their career. Yeah. Well, and I think the context, if I remember, was like a lot of the happiness tended to be concentrated in people that were in smaller teams or had more authority.

33:37like sort of yeah absolutely and even more interestingly the strongest correlation is people who said that ai has amplified them they feel like they figured out how to use ai to do more stuff that they're excited about and that and interestingly designers were the least happy from this work and that's actually what i hear from designers is everyone's moving faster design can't move that fast you have to get feedback from people you have to go through get alignment in you need uh you need to think like sit there and think you can't just age and iterate so i also think isn't there probably well i don't know if you're hearing this from designers but there's also a like everyone's a designer now yeah that's also a part of it when you're when i worked in education it's like one of those industries that's really hard to work in because everyone was a student once so everyone thinks they know things and i feel like now designers have that where it's like oh yeah I just made this in Gemini or I just made this in Claude here you go here's my design and by the way I think this is true of you know a lot of industries which is like and and whole products where it's like the gap between I made this and what is actually great right the gap between like I created this prototype and a product that is like exceptional it's really big the same is true obviously of design and design just got like way more accessible to the average person, at least okay design got really, really accessible, you know, which can be exhausting when people are telling you how to do your job all the time.

35:07Yeah, I had this tweet the other day that got a lot of traction along these lines. A growing part of everyone's job is cleaning up the AI slot from other people trying to do your job. Okay, so I have a lot of feelings about this. And it goes to this super intelligence thing that we were talking about where it's like, you know, we're saying like, AI is like the smartest employee you've ever hired in the entire world. And it's better than you at everything. And I think it causes people to like, approach it that way. When actually most of our experience with AI, I think a lot of people have had the experience with AI where it's like, that's wrong.

35:48Like what I just asked you to do that. Like, this isn't good. I always think like, AI needs the same coaching and training that a human does, right? It needs context. It needs onboarding. It needs all of these things. And it's kind of much more like an intern, like a bad intern often. I call it a lazy intern. And what happens, like to your point about AI slop, is that folks are approaching it as if it's like the great, you know, the best employee they've ever hired. So they just like copy, paste, send, right? And I'm like, you would never do that if you thought about it as an intern. You would never take the presentation that an intern handed you and just like straightforward it to your boss.

36:28Like that is a little bit insane, right? You would iterate on it. You would edit it. You would ask, make sure that it had all the context from like the 57 conversations that you've had with the summer intern before you ship that Prezzo to your boss. AI is the same. And I think part of what's going on with all the slop in the world is people have like shipped accountability. Like it's like, oh, I said this was good enough. So I'm just going to like copy paste send, you know, and that is never been how good work happens. You know what I mean? So like I feel like we need a change from like this super intelligent being that's better than all of us at our jobs to like, no, it's just a fucking intern, man.

37:06And like it needs the coaching and context and all of that and many iterations that most interns do. And I think the other thing, you know, to your point about accountability is or to your point about sort of like if you don't take accountability for the quality of your work, that shifts to someone else. Right. The person that receives it has to deal with it. And that is just a drain on organizations. And I literally see CEOs, we talk about this all the time in Glue Club, CEOs shipping a strategy memo that was clearly written by AI. That is you role modeling for your organization that it's fine to outsource your thinking and it's fine to outsource your strategy.

37:49It's you role modeling that you don't need accountability for the work that you send. And I feel like it goes down to this thing of like, we're like, we've this last six months, we've really been like overvaluing productivity, which is just like, you know, you hear all these stories about like companies like counting tokens and having token leaderboards. And it's like, it brings me back to the days when people were like counting cars in a parking lot and slack bubbles and lines of code, right, Right. Which we all know is a really bad way to manage people. And it's it's not we've been focused on sort of like how do you run as fast as you can on the treadmill?

38:27But like not am I going anywhere, you know, and which is to me the difference between like productivity and efficiency. Like productivity is can you generate, you know, more, which at this point I think we've proven we can all generate a bunch of shit that other people don't have to wade through to the point of your tweet. But is that efficient? Does that actually move the conversation forward? And the answer lately has been, why no, it does not. Yeah. In that report, I have this iceberg image of just like, we're doing better on top of all the stuff. But the output is worse, thinking judgment is coming down.

38:59So there's a lot of things we're watching. The good news is everyone's aware of this. They're like, yeah, maybe this isn't the way we should be working. No, I thought there was this really interesting engineering report that said, you know, engineer like for engineering, it has genuinely made people more productive. But the amount of lines of code that have had to be rewritten has gone up like 8x. So it's like this like very clear symbol of productivity. Obviously, like also the security incidents have gone up, et cetera, et cetera. So it's like there's just this difference between productivity and efficiency.

39:32And I think part of your burnout data is like people are just getting swamped, you know, and that's exhausting. If what you're doing all day is wading through. Did the person on the other side of this actually think about it? Did they actually care? That's tiring. That doesn't feel like a good use of your time. It just feels a little bit infuriating, you know. Yeah. It comes back to the grief of like, oh, man, I missed what I used to be doing. Yeah. Like this weird new job I'm doing. Yeah, totally. Okay, so let's come back to your advice. We kind of went on a really important tangent, but let's summarize what's still true about giving away your Legos, and then we'll talk about what's no longer true.

40:12So I'll summarize briefly. I took some notes as you were talking. So still true. Change is scary. That's normal. Understand that. It's part of human nature. We don't like change. learning over knowing still a very important thing to focus on it's okay if you don't know but if you're focused on learning you'll be probably okay this idea of standing still at successful companies is actually falling behind the company's growing if you're not growing and taking on new challenges and giving away stuff you're gonna fall behind is there anything else core to kind of what's still yeah i think i would just add one which is change is scary and hard and the best thing you can do is lean into it, right?

40:54It is not what your instincts tell you to do, but it is actually the best thing you can do in the face of change. And that was the message of Legos. You know, basically like you need to lean into this comfort of change in order to grow. And I think it is still true today, even if it is maybe even scarier than it's ever been. This season's supporting sponsor is DX. Now that everybody at your company is finally using AI, The question that engineering leaders face is no longer are we using AI, but is it paying off? With DX, you can measure and benchmark the impact of AI adoption across your full product lifecycle.

41:31DX shows you where AI is helping developers and where it's creating new bottlenecks. You can also use it to evaluate AI vendors, monitor costs and licenses, and see exactly what's limiting your agents. That's why hundreds of enterprises, including Snowflake, Sony, and BNY, use the DX platform to measure AI's impact on developer productivity. Visit GetDX.com slash Lenny to get a demo of DX. That's GetDX.com slash Lenny. Okay, so now what is different? The advice broadly is, okay, give away, make yourself redundant, it's going to be okay. I know that's the one that's hard to talk about today yeah make yourself irrelevant everybody it's gonna go great um yeah you know it's funny like when I when I first really took off and I first took me a while to really understand what was going on in total honesty I was a skeptic for a while where I was like we've been automating things for a while what is this um but eventually I got on board and all of a sudden I was like, oh, you know that thing I used to do before I went to give a speech at someone's company where I was like, how fast is your headcount growing?

42:44For me, that was like the only symbol I had of like, are there people to give Legos to? You know, if I'm going to get up on stage and be like, give away your Legos. A lot of times people are like, wait a minute, we're not hiring anyone. Like, who do I give it to? And but now I was like, oh, okay, like this message is like even more relevant because like everyone can try to automate parts of their job and everyone can give Legos away. And I will tell you, it has been an interesting journey realizing how different it is to give things away to robots than it is to give them to a human. And, you know, principally the point was like of Legos was like you take this thing you've been working on and you fully hand it to someone else.

43:27One of my favorite questions that I get asked at companies when I do the Legos talk is what is the best way to give Legos away to someone else? And I love it because I think basically people expect me to be like, so you should incredibly carefully hand this Lego to this person and explain to them exactly why you put it in the position you put it in, you know, like perfectly describe your tower, make sure they have like an instruction manual that they won't fuck up. And my answer is actually no. The best way to give Legos away is to chuck them at their face and run in the other direction. Because our tendency, again, is towards control.

44:04Like our tendency is to be like, you will build this tower exactly how I built it and you will not mess it up. But actually, like the point is, no, you're giving it away. You need to fully separate your mind. You need to just hand it to them and trust that the future of whatever that tower is belongs to them. And there is both obviously like a lot of fear and a whole bunch of stuff that comes to that. but there's a huge amount of freedom, right? You take this brain space and you ship it to them. Interestingly, like one of my biggest realizations was that delegating something to a robot is not the same as giving it to a human because you cannot get rid of the oversight, right?

44:47Like it's more like delegating something to someone on your team. You still own it. And so we've given, Yes, we've gotten more efficient because the robots can do X, Y and Z for us. But it's not the same as giving it away to a human because we still own the oversight. We still own the sort of final product. And that means the mental tax stays with you. So like, yes, in some ways I can do more. But psychologically, I still have all the burden of all of the stuff that all the robots are doing, you know. And I think that does make it quite different because it just means you don't have as much space to then go on to the new things, right?

45:29You've still got all the tax of the cost of oversight is not zero. Do you know what I mean? Again, I wonder if this is part of what's going on with some of your burnout data. It's just like, all of a sudden, I'm overseeing all these robots and maybe all these humans. And it's more. And so anyway, I think that's one of the biggest differences is just like. It isn't exactly the same. It's like the difference between like transferring a Lego to someone where you genuinely get rid of it versus like delegating a Lego to someone. It's so funny the way you described it, where you you need to not be you need to disconnect from the responsibility of this thing now.

46:08And that's the opposite now where somebody else is doing this, the AI, but you're still responsible. Yeah. And so it's like having this Lego tower with this little robot coming through and, OK, I'm going to build I'm going to work on this now. But you're you still have to represent this tower to your boss. And so I could 100 percent see this metaphor. It's like you're clear. If you're a manager, it's a familiar feeling, right? Your team got twice as big. And now you just have these weird little robots that occasionally like fuck up the tower and you have to be like, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what I said.

46:39You know, which is like, again, managing an intern like you get it. But if you're not a manager, like if you've never been a manager, and I do think it's important to name that like like I said, like managing robots, those skills are very similar to managing humans. They have less feelings, but, you know, it's all the same skills of like oversight and, you know, giving them context and correcting their work and coaching and like all those skills are the same for managing a robot as they are for managing a human. and a lot of people don't like that shit. Like so many people actively like chose not to become a manager.

47:14Do you know what I mean? And so there is exhaustion that comes with if you haven't, you know, if you don't enjoy delegating, if you haven't worked on all these skills for many, many years, like then suddenly you are in that stance of management. But it also just I mean, it just means literally everyone in the world is a manager now, you know, and all you're doing when you're delegating to robots is delegating just like you would to another human on your team. So, you know, I always say the happiest the max people should be managing is like 10 to 12 employees. Like I've managed bigger teams than that.

47:45And it was not a good look. And I don't think there's any data that says that people can manage more than that now. And if you count robots, like I'm worried for people's like psychology, you know what I mean? In terms of like the amount you have to hold in your head. Yeah. I build a lot of random stuff and I have all these different agents running. And on the one hand, it's so awesome. And all these things get done. And it's just like, wow, look at this thing go. I did all these things. And then also I get pinged all day for all these guys. They're like, what about this? Okay. Oh, I'm stuck here.

48:17Oh, is this good? And I'm like, okay, I got to look through this all. Actually, so I work with an actual human engineer also. And I'm just like, it makes you appreciate a human awesome engineer that you could just give a rough idea to and they could run with it and do an awesome job versus now it sucks okay let's try again and then sit there for five minutes wait uh so yeah it is the difference between managing junior employees and managing senior employees yeah do you know what i mean like ai right now pre-junior employees it's not my favorite form of management i always say like give me the high performers give me i can turn them into these incredible rocket ships like managing interns managing like folks that are brand new to the workplace is pretty tiring.

48:57And I do think that is like what it feels like managing AI. And it's so different, like I said, than like throwing a Lego at someone and running the other direction, which you can do with your senior engineer, you know? Such a good point. Okay. We'll get to like actual advice. Here's what you should probably do. But before we get there, what else is different about the original advice around giving away Legos? The first one's so good. Just like you made it so obvious why it is very different to give your legos away to a machine because you're not actually giving away they're just going to do the work and then you're still responsible for it and you have to oversee it yeah and i think the second thing that's really different and we sort of talked about a little bit already but like my message was always like you give things away because the only way you can make space for new opportunity is by giving things away do you know what i mean and like that has two assumptions under it one that it's good to give things away and two that there's new opportunity on the other side.

49:51And I think this, you know, what I talked about with the fear narrative is one of the things that's driving me nuts in the world. And we talk about it a lot in Glue Club is just this dominant narrative that like all these jobs are going away because of AI and, you know, all these layoffs that are branded as AI, like that is not going to support anybody being in a stance of like, yeah, let's like delegate everything to these robots. Let's give them every piece of, you know, our brain and our data so that we can have all this new opportunity that's coming along. Like, I think it is the hardest conversation to have right now.

50:33And in, you know, to your point about like, there's lots of people out there that are really excited. There are. And I want that for everyone because this is like an incredible moment. Like, you know i've been in technology for almost 20 years and um i've seen a lot but like this is this is one of those moments this is you know the mobile phone on steroids where it's like all sorts of businesses are going to be created i'm a believer that a lot of jobs are going to be created because of this technology but i think we've got to start having that conversation in order to get to the place where everyone can be leaning in right everyone can say oh it's great to automate all these tasks that I hate because it gives me more time to do the things that I love, you know, which is like, I think to your point about the people that feel amplified by it, it's like, oh, I don't have to do all this boring ass work.

51:22I can just focus on the things that bring me joy, right? I can focus on the things that I'm great at. That's what we want. But while there's this narrative out there that, you know, media companies are propagating that says like, there's nothing for you on the other side. Do you know what I mean? We've got universal basic income. Everyone needs to be supported by the state because no one's going to have a job in 10 years. Like who the fuck wants to give Legos to robots if that's the narrative? No one. I went to this thing called Food Camp. Have you heard of Food Camp? I've heard of it. Tim O 'Reilly, who started O 'Reilly Media and awesome, smart guy.

51:58He came up with Web 2.0 as a concept. He organizes these little kind of intimate camps where he invites people that he thinks are you know can contribute to this conversation um to talk about all like a topic and this last one is around just like what happens with humans when ai does more and more of our job and it started with him talking to some i think it was a lawyer who's just like okay i'm hoarding this very specific knowledge i have about doing this job so that ai cannot do it it's like i need to protect it because otherwise i'm going to be replaced they don't need me anymore And I feel like a lot of people are probably feeling that a lot of specific niche professions, especially.

52:38Yeah, absolutely. And I go back. First of all, yes, of course. Like, how could you not be feeling that way? I don't know. Maybe I'm an abundance person and maybe I'll regret saying this in six months or five years. But I'm like every piece of data I have from my entire life and, you know, some of these conversations I've had, like the one with Manoush, say you got to lean in. You know what I mean? That protection and holding on and gripping to what you know is not the way you thrive in change. It's not the people that define the future. And, you know, again, the Manoush story would say lawyers are always going to exist.

53:21they are going to look completely different in every six years or every three years or whatever. So what do you think the next version of a lawyer looks like? Do you want to be part of designing that? Do you want to be part of creating that? Do you want to be part of figuring that out? Or do you want to stay here and try to protect what you know? And this is, I think, you know, that's to me, again, like it's scary out there right now. So I don't want to undervalue that, but I think you have to take that stance of, you know, agency, or we got to use a different word, entrepreneurship, you know, like you got to take that stance of, I want to be part of designing the future of my profession, not protecting the past.

54:02I really, really love this framework as like almost, maybe that's a big part of the advice from this conversation is this way of thinking for Manoush, which is like, my job will be different, but it'll continue to exist. And the question is just what will it be? And let me think about that leading and like prepare for that almost and not try to resist because like resisting is not going to work anyway. Yeah. And if you listen to the minutiae story, like it's such an entrepreneurial story. And I know that not everyone is great at that, but it is very much the like, let me try this next. It's just like, but it comes, you know, for her, it just I think it was founded in this belief of like this profession is evolving and changing and I want to be part of defining the future of it, you know?

54:47And I, again, I think that's until the data genuinely tells us otherwise, like I would say that is the stance I would take particularly in tech. What would you do if you believe there were going to be more and different, interesting engineering jobs, you know, in five years? How would you behave if you believed there was opportunity on the other side of letting go. Well, let's see if there's more to that thread because that's really helpful, which is, okay, this is going to go great. My product managers will thrive. There'll be more need for product managers because a lot of listeners here are PMs, engineers, founders.

55:26So what do you think people should be trying to do in that world where there will be more? Is it pay attention to how you're amplified? Is it look at people who are doing great and do what they're doing like what what do you think people could be doing to succeed in that future it's funny we had a conversation we run these um my team and i run these like top talent cohorts at companies and a lot of what we do is like get leaders talking to each other and helping each other and this woman who is a head of design brought this problem where she was like they won't let me ship code she's like i i did it like i basically built the thing and i was like just let me let me get it to production.

56:05And she was like, talking to engineering was like a brick wall, you know, where they were like, no, you can't ship code. Like you're, you're a designer. I'm an engineer. Like I own what goes to production. And, you know, there are good reasons for not letting things go willy nilly to production, you know, particularly if you work in the financial space, which they did. Like, I get it. But I think so much of the stance is we got to break down some of these walls between what was a designer, what was an engineer, what was a PM. This is obviously a lot of what's happening, but how do we really shed what we knew, which again is hard.

56:42It's hard to let go of those Legos, you know what I mean? And imagine, okay, what does it look like? This is why I think the startup land is so happy is because they're not fighting against the way things were. They're inventing the way things could be. And how can you make more space for that inside of a company? To me is the number one thing I talk about when I go, which is like, if you're not leaning into the creativity conversation versus the fear conversation, like you are leading folks who are just terrified, right? Like, how do you get people into a stance of like, I'm excited and I want to try things and I want to like tentatively let this designer ship code to production, you know?

57:30So to me, like, I think, how can you imagine a world with less walls? How can you get rid of some of those walls that have felt so important, you know, for the way we've done things for the last 15, 20, 25 years? I think that is a conversation that a lot of folks should be having. Just along those lines, just to be clear, is the idea here, okay, I've been a designer my whole life, is the advice there, okay, like maybe I'll be something else in the next few years that's not just designer. Well, I feel like a lot of your conversations are pointing. I mean, like, I think Adam Masseri was on here, who I worked with many years ago, and was a designer, and he's saying like, hey, we're, you know, the idea that like you're a designer and therefore you only do these things, that's obviously changing, right?

58:15Now you can prototype. You can have a much more robust and deep conversations. To some extent, you know, you can ship code like Elena Varna was talking about being a marketer and shipping code to production. So to me, they're just like were these very defined roles and a way that things worked. And we got to shed a bunch of that because things are possible now that weren't possible before. And that, you know, like when you listen to Manusha's story, so so much of what she's talking about is like the only form of journalism used to be like sitting in a newsroom employed by, you know, some giant news corporation.

58:50Like you think about journalism today, like everybody's journalists, like Substack. And part of what she talked about is like the crazy thing is your relationship to the business model. Like, again, it used to be a paycheck. And now it's like every journalist is an entrepreneur. I just can't imagine a lot of those transformations in tech, but you have to be willing to break down all the walls and start asking the questions of like fundamentally what is journalism? Fundamentally what is design? Like fundamentally what is product management? Which by the way is a question that we all should have been asking for many many years because it looks really different at different companies you know and I feel like that should be true of every single person which is like what is the value of all these different roles when you strip away a lot of the stuff that we've built up and then what might it look like you know in five over 10 years.

59:38Here's the big question, Molly, that I think a lot of people are wondering. Are there any Legos you should not give away that you should resist giving away, which is a radical departure from your advice over the many years? Totally. I know. As we were preparing for this, I was realizing that's like the biggest difference. Like when people, again, to the questions I get asked a lot, like both online and when I give speeches and stuff, like one of them is, have you ever regretted giving a Lego away? Like, do you ever, is there something you shouldn't give away? And in the, in the context of sort of like the rapid scale company where opportunity is flying at you and getting dumped on your head, my answer is no, give them the fuck away.

1:00:20Like you, you cannot often imagine what is coming next. Like you can't always design the future and it's not always clear. Sometimes you are genuinely giving away the known and stepping into the unknown. But it is basically always been a good idea in every example. I've seen both personal experience and, you know, everyone I've worked with and coached over many, many years. In AI land, I think we got to caveat this. Like, I think there are some Legos that shouldn't be given away, that the robots like... Both like don't deserve and like that we should hold on to. And I think that is like one of the things that's starting to show up in this conversation around AI slop is like there's just some work that shouldn't be outsourced.

1:01:05Like my fervent hope for AI is that it lets us do less of the things we shouldn't have been doing in the first place and more of the things that, you know, humans are best in the world at. Right. Like anybody that's ridden in a Waymo has this experience of like, whoa, this is crazy. Humans shouldn't be driving. Like driving is fundamentally just like code and systems. And we're really bad at being automated. Like we don't stop at the red lights. You know what I mean? So I think like what are the things that we're uniquely suited to do? Those are the things we should hold on to. And some of that is inside this slop conversation, which is things that require judgment, right?

1:01:46Things that require, like, again, to the CEOs that are asking AI for a strategy and then copying and pasting it and sending it to their company, like, no, like that is fundamentally something that a human brain that you as a CEO of your company need to own, right? And I think things that require trust, like that are fundamental to relationships, like we should not be outsourcing these things to robots because, well, for any number of reasons. I think things where you don't even, if you don't know the definition of good, how can you give it to your summer intern? You know, like if you don't understand what quality is, like you can't outsource that yet.

1:02:30so those are just examples for me i bet you have some too but that to me that is one of the biggest like things i've been thinking about lately is like as of today i think there's some stuff we just shouldn't give away you know and breaking news that's like what a departure from from this how many years ago did you write this 13 years yeah 13 wow that's um that's something that's a sign of the change we're living through that now there's some hold on to some of them yeah so interesting there's a few thoughts i had here while you were talking like this is almost a discussion around what should ai do where do you want ai to be involved and where you not want it involved one framework i've loved is this idea of you want ai kind of in the middle of stuff you want to be at the top like coming up just like here's kind of where we want to go and here's the idea here's the what i'm thinking and then ai does a bunch of stuff and then you review it iterate until it's done sandwich the sand the ai sandwich lenny the human sandwich yeah dude oh man okay we're getting there we're getting a metaphor the other is something tara i just thought of as you were talking so tara shared this really good perspective that humans are going to be necessary to help guide us towards the world we want to have, a product we want to build versus the most optimal AI version.

1:04:00I think as a long-time Airbnb person, nothing personal, but Booking.com, if you've seen a very different experience than Airbnb, Booking.com, their whole philosophy, let's optimize the shit out of every second of interaction. So it's just all these upsells and pressure and stress just like oh my god only one spot left you have five seconds left just book a hundred times hundred people book it just like stressful it's so stressful but so effective you go there you're like oh shit i gotta book this right now you're like i didn't even know i was booking it but i booked it i'm going to japan there's only one spot left but it's so good it's like self-active at getting you to book uh booking.com appropriate but and it worked and it's doing great as a business so you know good idea good stuff guys uh airbnb has always been we don't want to become that we want it to feel really nice to have a great experience feel feel good um so i think that's that's a big part of the answer as you were talking made me realize is humans are there to guide towards the world we want yeah and to some extent what you're talking about is taste you know that like there is a big difference between something that's okay and something that's phenomenal you know even beyond taste just a i think it's like a vision it's like what is your vision of where this should be because you could say you know people at bookie.com they have taste for a specific type you know it's like a different kind of taste yeah but it's like yeah what is what do you want what do you want what do you want the world to look like i like that i'm into that yeah i also just think like we gotta accept that at least for the moment like this is a bunch of interns you know this is a bunch of junior employees and like if you're if you're outsourcing your vision or the future of the world to a bunch of summer interns like oof like we got problems you know so like i think i that really like the human brain is powerful at a lot of things we are powerful at a lot of things you individually are phenomenal at a set of things like do not outsource that like you can enable it you can amplify it to use your data but don't outsource it to these weird robots that you know are effectively summer interns the trick is as it gets better can you hold on to things you want you know there's like parts of our job we love like engineers used to like you know and like a lot of engineers used to love to sit there and kind of write out code i think and i wonder if you can hold out and just like no i love this i'm not gonna let ai take this on yeah i have two reactions to that because i've been thinking about it a bunch since i had that conversation with that engineer like the first is like will there be a sort of like whiplash back.

1:06:38Like you see this in art, you see this in a lot of things. Actually, you see in a lot of different parts of tech where like the trend is like all AI, everything AI, will there be like the handmade, like somebody was talking to me about like AI is going to make all this art and, but doesn't that increase the value of like true human made art, you know, that you know it was made by a human, that you know it was crafted by hand. Like I have that same question. I'm not an engineer, so I'm not trying to say this, but like, will something show back up where the value of human written code or something like that suddenly gets valuable again or trendy?

1:07:15So I'm curious about that because I've seen those whiplashes enough times in life that it's hard sometimes to know like what's a trend and what's permanent, particularly in this state. But I guess the other thing that I think about a little bit is like, yes, you loved that. And yes, you were extraordinary at it. And that is amazing. And we should grieve it. We should grieve that maybe that's going away. And, you know, there's this guy, Chip Connolly. What am I saying? You know him well. Yeah, he's coming on Work Life soon. And I loved the conversation with him. He was talking about like midlife, but he was saying like, sometimes you need to throw a funeral for things.

1:07:58Do you know what I mean? And I was like, yeah, man, sometimes you need to the funeral is there for a reason. So like, let's take a minute and mourn what was. But then let's ask what could be like, what could you love that way again? What could you be extraordinary at that way again in this new world if the robots are doing X, Y and Z? And I think both things can be true. like you can be really sad about what you've lost and there can be opportunity in what's coming um but we got to be able we got to make space for both you know and i think sometimes we're not allowing the grief because uh we're just like just get excited about the future people such a powerful way of thinking about it just accepting it is going to change just like grieving it that was nice that was a nice world i had i miss it maybe i didn't appreciate it as much as i should have totally but then not fighting the change that is coming and i love this idea of just like coming back to the original idea of the lego's concept is being comfortable with your job changing and knowing it'll almost surely be okay and growth comes from trying letting go and and that kind of stuff another thought i had as i'm thinking about this something i've been noticing so you know this whole like hacking this like open ai model trying to hack into hugging face and the swarm of thousand agents just coordinating without anyone knowing just like we will solve this very impossible problem by interns very very very uh yeah i love how motivated this AI is to solve the problem.

1:09:37Yeah. I'm going to. The good news I'm feeling, there's always this question of, we talked about this in the last podcast, this idea of are we going to be in a slow takeoff or a fast takeoff? Are we going to get to an AI that just accelerates to the extremely super intelligent and then we are in big trouble because we can't control it? Or are we going to be in the slow takeoff or we kind of watch it develop and we catch it as it's doing that stuff like we did with this hacking incident? feels to me like we're definitely in the slow takeoff moment it feels like every of these like oh shit we're just like okay look we got it we see it we're evolving we're learning obviously there's always this fear okay but until it hits this uh self reinforcement loop that trains itself and then it becomes super intelligent for sure maybe it'll happen feeling right now it's not on track to do that and so that feels nice to feel like okay it's not gonna your job is not going to go away tomorrow.

1:10:32We have time to adapt and learn and see how all this goes. And it's not as crazy as people thought it might be. Well, and I think that is really important to name, you know, because there was maybe more like three or four months ago or six months ago than there is now. But but there is this feeling of being left behind, you know, and there was a really strong narrative out there that was like, you're too late. You're already too late. You know what I mean? Like, um, if you're not automating every single part of your life and managing 26 agents, and I don't even know, you know, like, um, that you're behind and every single conversation I have with every leader, every manager at, you know, all of the big labs, every company is like, we are early.

1:11:19This is like whatever sports ball game you want to be in. Like this is inning one period one, like yard one, we're early. And the future is ours to shape. You know, it's yours. Like you can, my friend Max Mullen said like the distance from beginner to expert is really short. And I think that goes again to the fear narrative where I'm just like, we need to be encouraging people to be part of shaping the future, not just making them terrified of it. And I feel like that is on all of us, you know, to some extent. But it is a slow takeoff. And it isn't like the future is next day, next month. Like it is, it's going to take years to really understand what this new tool, this new technology, all these fun interns can actually do.

1:12:14And also what they're best at. I think that is a really powerful message because it helps people feel like, oh, okay, like I am part of this, not like sort of holding on for dear life while being dragged, you know, by a plane that's taking off at 100 miles an hour. I completely agree. In my last podcast conversation, I don't know when it will come out when is about this fear of the permanent underclass that if you don't catch up, if you're not on top of this, you're going to be left behind. I think there is definitely a part of that in a sense of many companies are doing extremely well and people that have joined those companies are going to be very successful and some companies aren't and there's this like whole other discussion around this the socio-economic divide growing significantly in the world and just what what that causes in a world where there are many wealthy people many more than there have ever existed that's its own thing we don't need to get on to that well i hope you do okay many episodes on that someday lenny like i think it's but i it is another area where i'm like i'm not sure we know what's real yet you know i think it's obviously like one of the most important conversations, but like what is real and like what is the future actually going to look like to me?

1:13:21Like the stories out in the world, they're not real yet. Like we don't know. It's true. And I think that's important to name. Oh, man, that's a big topic. The interesting part you mentioned there's that I wanted to follow the thread on is this idea of you're not behind. What really helped me see this is Ian Silber, head of design at OpenAI, I was on the podcast recently and he made this really good point. He's like, this is the best time in history to be a designer. If you just came in fresh as a new grad into design and just become really, you just start with all these tools that designers have now.

1:13:55You can accelerate so quickly and learn to do design faster than anyone's ever learned to do design. And I feel that with like Rockbot recently came out. There's all these like skills people have built over time with like codecs and clock code. Like I'm such a pro with all these tools. and now it's just the tools are getting so much smarter you don't need a lot of the scaffolding that people have built over time like if someone were to start fresh today and try grokbot or even in codex like you don't need to have spent years being on top of all of the news and all of the updates to it you could just dive right in and build as much as people that have been on it for a long time can build i feel like the actual main skill to build something i've been thinking about I tweeted this, but I feel like I didn't get enough attraction because I think it's very important.

1:14:44I feel like the biggest skill to build right now is when you're about to do something to ask yourself, can AI help me with this thing? Because once you get good at that, and I've been getting that, it's like I think about the stimulus and response kind of thing of meditation. Like you create more space between stimulus and response if you learn to be aware of what's going on. I feel like you need to insert, can AI help me with this? Which sounds like dirty and like what the hell? Why would you want to add? But I feel like that's a really new skill because then you can start, as these tools get better, you can start to leverage them in all these different ways that I think is what separates a lot of people right now.

1:15:22Like, oh, totally. And I, um, you know, it goes to that point about the walls. Like, I think those of us that have been around a long time and there's a way that things were done, right? There's a way that product was built. There's like all these ways, right? Those are walls. They're walls. They're old. And like part of what we need to do, and I think part of what you're saying is like you're actually a little bit at an advantage if you don't know those walls exist, right? Like if you approach the world as if like, you know, engineers didn't have a different role from X or Y or Z or like this is the way things are done.

1:15:58There is an advantage to like being able to say, what if? Like, what if I just did it or what, you know, and to just try. And to your point to always think like, hey, like what's the best use of my time? And then what, you know, could an agent or a robot do for me? And I think that's like partially the point about the learners, right? Like if you're able to shed the sort of things you think you know and lean into like the possibility and the first principles thinking, which I know you have a great article about too, like that, that I think is going to define the future. Those are going to be the people that are going to shape what this thing looks like.

1:16:36Yeah. There's also a thread here around ambition that's been coming up a lot on the podcast. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, this idea that now that it's so easy to do whatever you want, just describe it and it's built. The thing that we need to, in addition to asking ourselves, can I help you with this thing is what's kind of the like, how do we be more ambitious with this idea? Because the tools can now just do so much and they're just like waiting for you to tell me something more ambitious than that. Like, that's all you got for me. And we're not human nature doesn't like we're not used to end product teams and business just like thinking about the most ambitious version of a thing.

1:17:12We're thinking about the MVP and what's the quickest way to get this out. And now feels like the push is how do we think big? What's like the hardest thing we can ask this ad to do? Because it may actually just achieve it out of one ask. Yeah. And I'd also nudge on the idea that like, yeah, you can just like type something into existence. But one of the other questions you need to ask yourself is like, is it good? Do you know what I mean? This is like the the slop and the accountability thing, which is like and if ambition is wrapped up in like, how do I build something phenomenal that's going to endure like that?

1:17:48I'm interested in if it's just like, how do I make more shit and put it out in the world? Like one of my questions, this is really frontier, Lenny, is like, what is the AI slop version of startups? like are we about to see a shit ton of companies just shipping stuff out into the world that's going to last for like six or 12 months and then just disappear or get irrelevant like definitely so okay great that doesn't sound fun like how can you be the pioneer of the enduring thing the thing that's going to still be around in five years you know that's going to matter that's going to be great um not just exist and again it goes to the difference between just like productivity right Like I built a thing and what is good?

1:18:31Like what is actually worth it? What's worth other people's time? Yeah. I think that's a big differentiating opportunity right now. Instead of just shipping the thing fast, it's what's like a very good version of this thing. And, and people see that they're like, oh wow, this is different. Yeah, exactly. I think this goes to the point of like, what will matter when it comes to human touch, you know? And I, I think a lot of that is going to come down to like the question of like, what is good and what is worth it and what endures. Is there anything that we haven't touched on that we should before we try to summarize maybe some key lessons from this freewheeling conversation?

1:19:08Well, the one thing I just wanted to say is like, I was thinking yesterday because of the conversation I was having is like, what do I want every manager or leader out there to know? you know, because I think the world of the IC is honestly a little more clear. Like, you know, you are more productive and you have all this power and agency around building. And the world that feels very hard to me right now is the world of the managers and the leaders because so much is changing so fast. It's a little bit hard to know what to tell people. It's a little bit hard to know, like, what your team should look like, what matters, what doesn't matter, you know, all that.

1:19:50And so I guess like I wanted to say a couple of things to the managers and leaders out there, if you'll give me the sec, like the first is like understand that you're a role model, you know, and that what you do and how you behave is essentially showing your team what good looks like. And that means that how you use AI trickles down, but also how you sit in this moment, like how you show up. And for me, what I want a little more space for in the world is to be able to acknowledge what this change feels like. I hope there's more managers out there because of this conversation talking about grief and talking about the emotions that come with change and talking about how hard this is for people.

1:20:36I think that acknowledging what this rate of change does to people's brains and psychologies, like it just honestly, even acknowledging it makes it easier for people. Like I said, I swear to God, that's most of what the Legos article did is just tell people, hey, that thing that you're feeling, other people have felt it before you. And it hasn't meant that everything is going to hell in a handbasket. You know, it's meant, oh, you're going through a lot of change really, really fast. And it's scary and hard. So the more that like leaders can be talking about that I think the more sane everyone's going to feel and less alone you know knowing that like someone at xyz company is feeling the same way as you makes a difference um and I guess the last thing I just say is like I think everyone owns this to some extent but managers and leaders more so like we need to hold on to the definition of like accountability and what good means like i think that's part of the role modeling like what is right to give away to ai and what do we still as humans and people and workers need to own like we're gonna have to role model that and we're gonna have to create standards for that um so that goes to your own behavior but it also goes to how you lead and how you talk about it.

1:21:56Like I, Clay put out like this beautiful AI writing policy a couple weeks ago, I think it was. And it's so badass because it's literally just talking about being accountable for what you ship out in the world and being accountable for what good is, regardless of how you made it. And for today, to me, like that feeling of treating AI as like a a junior intern and realizing that it's fundamentally just a tool to get work done. But what matters is like the work is still done mostly by the humans and the human brains. And we got to take care of the humans and we got to help them figure out how to navigate this wild, wild west that we are in.

1:22:38I'm really glad you added that. It connects to another really interesting insight from the survey, which is that the one thing that you can actually change to increase people's happiness right now at work is their manager. That's the strongest lever for happiness at work. You can actually do something about it. All this other AI stuff you can't do a ton about. That's one. And so it's, and most people's managers are not good, according to the survey also. So it's. None of this is surprising. So taking care of the managers is kind of just a reminder that you have a lot of leverage there. Yeah, which, by the way, is like there are trends inside of bigger companies to get rid of management, like to get rid of whole management layers.

1:23:17And I think it is a huge mistake. Like I think it is going to end up biting people in the ass long term because I see no signs right now that management matters less. If anything, to your point, I think it matters more. And, you know, again, I get the efficiency and the cost savings and all that. But I think like at what cost, you know, what costs that you can't predict. So it really resonates that management is almost more important because it makes people feel seen. Like that's what a great manager does is make people feel seen and supported and help them figure out whatever mess they're in.

1:23:52You know, it's going to be so interesting to see if there's a backlash towards that. Like, like, you know, people have had great managers. They're they're rarely going to be like, I wish I had no manager. You know, there's it's like people with bad managers, which is a lot of people like, I don't need this person. But they're so useless. Yeah, they're in my way. They are a wall. No, totally. I mean, I always say you only get like a couple of good managers in your life. And when you find one, hold on to it for dear life because you're only going to get like two. Oh, man. Scary. I've never heard that advice before.

1:24:21Anything else that you wanted to share or touch on? I feel like we, I mean, it'll be fascinating. We'll reflect on this in six months and see. That's what I was thinking. We might have to do it again. We're in the middle of it right now. It's like Elizabeth Stone had a really good way of framing it. We're in the storming phase. Yeah, dude. And then there's the norming phase. I know. I have no idea what that actually means, but it sounds right. Storming, norming. Well, there's storming, norming, and then there's performing. But the other thing that nobody tells you about that framework is that you can go backwards.

1:24:51You often go through cycles. This is a model on team development. And you go through storming, and then you go through norming, and then you go through performing. But you can slip from performing into storming, and I feel like we're going to see a lot of that. Oh, boy. Yeah. Yeah, it's like very cool to be living through this history, right? It's like easy to take for granted just how this is. Like it's like we're living through history. You know, it's funny you say that because that's actually something I always talk about when I do these Lego speeches. Is like being inside of a rapidly growing company feels like being inside of a tornado.

1:25:29Do you know what I mean? It's like it is so absorbing and I don't know, shit's just flying at you at all times and everything's changing all the time. And it is so easy in that state to lose the forest for the trees. Like you can get really bogged down or stuck in like obsessing about this person or this thing or feeling undervalued. And a lot of what I say to folks in those speeches is like you've got to zoom out. You got to think about what is the story that I want to tell on the other side of this? Like, I want to, you know, it's less about your title or all these things than it is about I was here and I helped build this.

1:26:07I talk about it as like a giant Lego sculpture. So it's like you're like, let's pretend it's a tiger. You're going to you're going to leave here with this incredible story. Right. You built the feed and then you like were part of building the face and then you rebuilt the butt three times. And then you realized it like wasn't just a tiger. It was like a whole zoo. Like that is what it feels like to be inside of these rapidly changing companies. And I wonder, you know, as you were saying that, what I was thinking about is, gosh, imagine the stories we're going to be telling in five or 10 years.

1:26:36Like I was there when here's what I thought that was right. Here's what I thought that was wrong. I was the first person to say this. Oh, man, I was so wrong about that. like you are living through history that you will be telling stories about to whatever, you know, generation of new grads shows up in 10 years. What do you want your story, your part of that story to be? You know, how are you going to tell that story? I think there is something about zooming out and realizing like it is hard and there is a lot of change going on, but there is a crazy fun story that we're all going to be telling on the other side of this.

1:27:11We just don't know what it is yet. Hopefully not just talking to our AGI. Tell me more. Tell me more, Molly. Totally. That's so fascinating. Yeah, exactly. You're so great. You're so smart. Oh, man. Okay. What if we do just like some bullet points, like takeaways for folks? Just like here's a few kind of key things to keep in mind coming from this giving away your Legos framework. See where your mind goes, and then maybe I'll add a few for my notes. Okay. To me, like most important is change is scary and hard, but that doesn't mean it's bad. That means you have to embrace the emotions that come with it, but you also have to lean into it and you should let go.

1:27:53Like, yes, it's scary. And yes, it feels like there might not be anything waiting on the other side. But what's the alternative to hold on to this thing that might be slowly dying? Like that's not safe either. So leaning into change feels like to me the most important thing for folks to take away. I think as part of that, I would just say like grief is part of this. And sometimes grief needs a funeral or do what you got to do, you know, to like be sad. Let your teams be sad. Let the people around you make space for that. Because like their change with change comes shedding things that you loved.

1:28:33And that sucks. Um, I think like one of the other things that feels like it really came out, Lenny, is like there is opportunity here and we got to like start ignoring or muting or whatever some of this fear narrative. because right now the data isn't saying like there are no jobs for you. The data is saying like, actually, there's going to be a lot of opportunity created by this, particularly if you're willing to lean into reinvention, right? Not what was the form of your job two years ago, but what might it be in five years?

1:29:11What else? I guess like breaking down walls is the other thing I was thinking, but what came to your list? Well, there's the minutiae kind of perspective of imagine your job isn't going to go away. Imagine your job will continue. It would be different. Yeah, exactly. I love it. It was a real mind change for me when she said that because I was like, whoa, like, yeah. What is engineering going to look like in five years? Right. It's not going to go away. It's going to be something different. Maybe there'll be more of it. Like journalism. There's more journalists out there, for better or for worse.

1:29:43yeah and so far there's more more um cams more product more um engineers yeah like so far that's going well another kind of takeaway is just be deliberate about what you do what you give to ai and there's a few ways to think about it one is just like what is ai going to do a terrible job at don't do that what is it you love that you don't want it to take for you how do you avoid like brain rot and just overlying an ai it's like there's a few things there just like ai is not gonna don't give everything to ai yeah and i think also for a lot of us acknowledging that ai is not this like super intelligent being it's like it is much more like an intern um and that means like literally think about it as an intern like what would you give to an intern and what would you never give them i think that's the core of it yeah and i feel like well i feel like we said this but like there just may be some things we should never give away and that is genuinely different like give away your Legos, but like be discerning about what you should keep and what should be human and what humans are here for.

1:30:44Like, I think that's part of the like conversation for the next, you know, however many years is like, what are humans uniquely good at? And what I think about there, just like very concretely in my mind is be the person that guides what you're doing to a place, to the vision you have of the world you want. Not just the simplest thing, not the thing that AI is kind of pointing to just like, what do you actually want? And that's kind of our job for a while. Yeah. And like at the individual level, how can this new tool, this fun, intelligent intern that you've hired, like let you do more of what you love, you know, let you bring more joy into the world, let you lean into the things that you love doing.

1:31:22How can it amplify you instead of feeling like all you're doing is losing things to it? What a moment in time we're in Molly right now. trying to figure all this out. We're going to rewatch this in a year or two and make fun of ourselves. Oh, we're going to be, we nailed it. We got everything right. Perfect. Visionaries. Oh, man. Well, with that, Molly, is there anything else, anything you want to plug, anything you want to point people to, anything you want to tell people about that you're up to that might be interesting, useful to them? I'll say two things. First, I get a lot of wisdom, but also a lot of support for this kind of conversation from the community in glue club.

1:32:01And I think, um, if you're a leader listening to this and feeling like lonely and a little bit unsupported, like that is find a community, whether it's glue club or another one where you can talk about this. Cause I do think like leaning on each other to learn like what's real and what's not, and what's valuable. And when it's not like so much of what we're doing in glue club is being like, is anybody else seeing this? Like, and that, that is really valuable. Like you can do it in Lenny land as well. Like, but just get out there and talk about what's real and what's not. Don't just stay in a sad, lonely hole.

1:32:33But the second thing I wanted to say, Lenny, is thank you for making space for this. I think it's important. Like there's so much space right now for the like, what should I do and what, you know, what skills should I get and what course should I take and, you know, what tools should I try next? Who's hot today? But like, we aren't talking enough about the human side of this and what it feels like to be going through this for everyone. And so I'm grateful that you reached out and we talked about making space to talk about this because I think hopefully people will leave feeling a little more like sane and like, oh, everybody else is feeling a little crazy right now, too.

1:33:07And there's lots of people out there grieving and like, that's OK. Like, that's normal. So thank you, Lenny. Thank you, Molly. I think of these I have a term for these sorts of episodes I call them Trojan horse episodes where people come for like all this tactical concrete how do I use AI in this way how do I become better PM and then I get there's these like important episodes that slip right in yeah exactly and you're like oh okay I didn't know I needed that but that was very helpful so welcome to the Trojan horse we're smuggling in very timely with the Odyssey these days Yeah, dude. All right, Molly.

1:33:46Well, thank you so much for being here. Yeah, thanks for having me, Lenny. Bye, everyone. Bye, everybody. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com. See you in the next episode. Thank you.