Dear Life Kit: When money makes relationships murky

0:00You're listening to Life Kit from NPR.

0:07Hey, it's Marielle. It's hard for a lot of us to talk about money because of how we were raised, because we're told it's impolite conversation, because we don't know how to communicate with people who have a lot more or a lot less money than we do, and for a million other reasons. And yet, in the astute words of Wu-Tang Clan, cash rules everything around me. Money is the hidden participant at every dinner table. Like every major life change that we go through, we effectively have to have a money discussion. When someone has a child, right, that comes with a financial burden. When someone gets sick, that comes with a financial burden.

0:50When you get married, that comes with a financial transition. When you move countries, when you get a new job. Wendy De La Rosa is a behavioral scientist and an assistant professor of marketing at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School. And she says in these moments, yeah, we tend to shy away from money conversations, but she'd like us to have some of those. And so would Katie Gaddy-Tosson, host of The Money with Katie show and author of the book Rich Girl Nation. Katie says, look, we're all learning how to make better financial decisions for ourselves and our families, ones that reflect our values, and how to talk about this stuff too.

1:26Nobody comes out of the womb knowing how to manage money. It is a skill that can be learned. And I just like to start there because I think that there is a layer of shame that we often have to kind of dig through because there is this subconscious often belief that like, I should know this by now. On this edition of Dear Life Kit, the advice series from Life Kit reporter Andy Tegel, Wendy and Katie are going to tackle some of your stickiest money questions. They'll talk about gift giving and picking family favorites, about how to help a friend who has a mounting stack of medical bills, and about what to do when you find that you are more financially responsible than your parents.

2:06Be forewarned. This advice is going to require talking to the people in your life.

2:18Question number one. Dear Life Kit, I'm an auntie to 18 nieces and nephews. Most of them are teenagers, and I'm not close with them all. My sisters mentioned that I clearly have a favorite and how it's unfair that I only buy presents for some of them. I'm doing well financially, but gifts for 18 nieces and nephews adds up. I don't have strong bonds with all of my siblings, and it's the same with my nieces and nephews. Is it okay that I have a favorite? Signed, mutual investment required. So on one hand, for me, 18 is wild. On the other hand, if we're at a family party where gifts are being exchanged and you're obviously shelling out presents to some of the kids, but not to others.

3:01Yikes. Thoughts? So my perspective here is that I do think the expectation financially that you would be buying gifts for every single kid. I'm assuming this is this is birthday, but there's also the holidays. Right. So we're talking theoretically 36 presents a year if we're gonna go down that route of everybody is getting a present. I do think that that is unreasonable. And my thought is there are other ways, like maybe it's sending the birthday card, right? There are other ways that you can acknowledge that it is someone's birthday or a holiday without feeling as though you need to be shelling out money.

3:42I do think that it is very natural in big families like that, especially when there's dozens and dozens of you, to have closer relationships with some people than others. I think that's just to be expected. Wendy? I think we're actually asking the wrong question. Because I think what the fundamental core of the question or the ask is, is one that's coming from vulnerability. It's saying, hey, I want to be closer to you. I want you to love my children. in the same way that you love our other siblings' children? Like, how can we become closer, right? And money is just essentially a symptom of the core issue, which is just someone asking for closeness, right?

4:25And so I would ask the letter writers to say, like, what are your values? Like, how do you want these children to feel? Like, do you even want to be a significant part of their lives? If the answer is yes, then let's think about creative ways in which you can show up for them that doesn't leave you in financial ruin. Like, you know, how can you organize a family gathering at your place or at a park where you're organizing everything and you give all the children just like an awesome memory? Like that in and of itself, I think would go such a long way because at the core, this issue is about connection.

5:02And so I would just put reminders to call on birthdays, right, to FaceTime on birthdays, to send a card as was previously shared, but also just to figure out ways in which you can just show up. I like the way that you've reframed that. I think that making sure we're answering the right question is really important. And I think that oftentimes questions like this that deal with the stickiness of money within relationships is that often it's a relationship challenge that is masquerading as a money challenge. So I really appreciate the way that you took the side door. I think you're right. I think there's definitely some missing connections here.

5:46But I do think mutual investment is saying, I have some favorites. Like, is that okay? We are social creatures by nature, right? Like that's part of our DNA. We tend to gravitate towards people that we are like and so that's just naturally going to happen in any big group but that's why I go back and challenge the letter writer to say is that consistent with your values like are you okay with that and the answer is yes and great then you have sort of created a boundary for yourself as to how you're going to show up so you're not perpetually suffering and putting yourself you know over the coals of saying I'm not doing enough for xyz no you've done the internal hard work to say, there's only X number of dollars in my bank account.

6:32I only have X limited amount of attention. I am purposely going to decide to invest in these relationships. And I'm very clear-eyed about it. And if you have reservations about like showing the favorites, then let's change our behavior accordingly. Let's operate from values first. Lovely. Katie, any last thoughts? You know, I do think that as kids grow up, your relationship with those children is going to change too. The kid that you're closest to this year might not be the kid that you're closest to five years from now. So I do think that like these things aren't static either. I appreciate Wendy's focus on being very intentional about what you're choosing and being very grounded in that choice.

7:15Because it doesn't feel good to give gifts if you're doing it out of a sense of obligation. That completely changes the energy of the dynamic. And so I think whatever you choose being really grounded and sturdy in, I know why I'm doing this, then it means that if someone else in the family is not a fan of it, it's kind of like that can roll off your back a little bit easier. So I think that that's a really good note. Moving on to question number two. Dear Life Kit, my dear friend was recently diagnosed with stage four cancer at age 35. We've been close friends for six years, and I've seen her through the loss of a parent, been by her side at her wedding, and done countless weekend adventures together.

7:56She and her spouse are underemployed and uninsured. And the systems in place to help her are moving slower than the fast-moving cancer. I'm frustrated with my friend for not having insurance, but I'm also grateful to be in a financial position to help her. I'm trying to decide how much money to give her. But when I try to measure my friend's life against my daily comforts and future plans for my savings, I feel like I'm putting a price tag on her life. How do I decide how much of my savings to keep for myself and how much to gift my friend? Signed, Budgeting for Bestie. This is so hard. It's so unfair that you're all going through it.

8:36And it's so unfair that our policymakers have basically put people in this position to be having to make these types of tradeoffs when someone's life is on the line. You're clearly a very loyal and very thoughtful friend and you're taking this really seriously. So I just want to commend you for that. But the other thing that I will say that immediately came to mind is a stage four cancer diagnosis in the United States without insurance is probably going to be hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars in some extreme cases to treat out of pocket. So unless that is the level of financial stability and flexibility that you're wheeling and dealing with here where you're like, yeah, I could cover that and I'm trying to decide if I should, most likely regardless of the type of help that you're able to give her, she will need to find another solution.

9:33Writing a big check, wiping out your savings isn't necessarily the right answer here. Wendy, do you agree? yeah and i and i just want to echo what's been shared around like this is such a difficult time um and one that i too find myself in um i have a very close friend who was is dealing with a cancer diagnosis um and having been through this for now a year i would say one of the most important things and impactful things that you could do is figure out how to bring joy to your friend's life, how to bring laughter into your friend's life, and how to bring comfort into your friend's life. I would think about how do I spend my money in a way that can bring her comfort?

10:20Like, can I create a memorable experience for her so that her and I can have this amazing memory before she has to go through another round of chemo. Like that's sort of where I would sort of channel the attention, but also I would channel the attention towards just hugs. I think the other thing that I wanted to add is oftentimes when something really scary like this happens and you have a really major health event, just having somebody who can kind of play that medical secretary role for you in some capacity and help you stay on top of things can be a godsend because navigating the U.S. healthcare system in some cases feels like a full-time job.

11:06But if your friend has not yet tried to get on Medicaid, I do think that that is a path worth pursuing. And I think that this is a quite a practical way that you could end up having a pretty big financial impact if you're able to help her get on Medicaid. But it also might just give her some peace of mind that she isn't going through that process alone or having things slip through the cracks. Because obviously the best time to be dealing with a bunch of paperwork that determines whether you live or die is when you're already faced with a horrible disease, right? And that's the situation that it puts people in.

11:45I think a larger question that this brought up for me is the uncomfortable feelings that can come up when there's inequality or inequity between friends or family, especially in big moments of crisis like this, you know? Any thoughts on how people can draw that line for themselves? You know, what we owe each other, what we can give without overextending ourselves. What I tell people is if you were to take$100 and burn it, just like take a lighter and burn it in front of you, is that going to materially impact your life today tomorrow or next week if the answer is no okay it's not going to change what's in your emergency savings fund it's not going to cool now let's take that that scenario and say two hundred dollars and at the point where you're like starting to like maybe it's like then back up a couple of hundred and then that should at least like help you to get a sense of how much you're actually willing to part.

12:46More questions from Dear Life Kit in a moment. Our last question. Here we go. Dear Life Kit, I'm in my late 20s and still living with my parents. I have a full-time job and I've finally scrounged up enough money to move out. My parents are terrible with money. They make six times my salary but constantly overdraft their accounts. They still talk to me like I'm 16 but then they ask me to bail them out, which I've done many times. Now they're trying to guilt me into staying instead of finally getting my own place. What do I do? Signed, Desperate to Divest. This is a difficult and yet, I think, simple question, right?

13:32I think the question here is not necessarily, like, should I move out? I think the letter writer has decided already that they want to move out. the question is a more complicated one is how can I move out in a way that my parents and I relationship is not irrevocably damaged right what are some of the things that you can feel good about within your own boundaries that at least let you say I'm still helping out my parents in some way whether it's to say you know I'm happy to cover the light bill or I'm happy to cover the phone bill or I'll add you guys to my family plan on T-Mobile. Like, you know, whatever is a way of saying I'm not leaving you.

14:18I care about you. I care about this relationship. I'm so thankful for everything you've done, but it's time and I can help you in this way. And I also want to encourage the letter writer to recognize that your parents are adults too. Your parents are making adult choices. And so sometimes they're going to make mistakes and they're going to make costly mistakes and it's going to impact their financial life. And we have to bear that even with the people that we love. Yeah. Same take, Katie? Yeah, I think so. I guess first I just want to acknowledge that it is very impressive And it's also very rare to recognize and be capable of breaking that cycle.

15:04Because I think so much of our money stories are inherited. I think many of us aren't even aware of how they are subconsciously pulling the levers behind the scenes and influencing our behavior. So I think the fact that you even can recognize this dynamic, kind of identify it as harmful in some ways and go, I would like to choose differently for myself. I think that that's really powerful. and you also mentioned that they make a lot more money than you do. And so I think that that is actually in this case, practically speaking, an important part of this dynamic. It's not like you're Rockefeller swinging in from New York and your parents are very low income and rely on you.

15:42They have more resources than you do and it is not your job as their child to constantly bail them out. I am a little curious, is this a financial literacy problem? Is it that they know better and they're choosing not to do better? Or is it something where you feel like they actually do not know better? You've said they're terrible with money. I don't know that they would react well to this, but I have seen adult children of parents who are not financially responsible essentially say, hey, I am no longer comfortable giving you money, but I am willing to provide you with a way to feel more solid about money.

16:21I want to hire somebody to work with you who can teach you how to manage your money and can help you get better at this. And so it's, I guess, the teaching to fish versus continuing to give the fish type solution. But I do think I wanted to note that just in case it feels like something where maybe financial literacy wasn't a big part of the household. And you might think that they actually don't really know any better. For me, the answer is we just need to have a conversation. We need to have an overdue, grown-up conversation. about what this needs to look like? Well, I think across all these questions, we've been essentially telling people, have a conversation, have a conversation.

17:00Right, yeah. I want us to recognize that not everybody is ready to have a conversation or can come to the conversation in a way to make it productive. I think the letter writer has said, you know, they still talk to me as though I'm 16. Right. Maybe they're like constantly undermining. And so as this letter writer is, you know, prepping to have this conversation with their parent, I want them to sort of be solidified in that however their parent shows up, it's not their responsibility. Maybe the conversation will go great. Maybe the conversation will not go great. But as long as the letter writer feels like I am doing something that I know is important to me and I'm at least trying to show up from a place of love for my parents.

17:46right? It's not that I'm just like leaving you high and dry, then it's okay. Be still in that decision, right? Our parents' mistakes are not necessarily our mistakes. I think too, something that I often think about with having hard conversations is that there are a lot of things that might come up in a conversation like this one. And I think that you get to choose which of the complicated feelings that you feel about them and about the situation that you bring into that conversation. So maybe you have a lot of feelings about the way that they spend money. Maybe you have a lot of feelings about the way that they treat you.

18:24Maybe there's a lot of hard feelings around them being irresponsible, right? Getting that all out on the table and then kind of teasing it apart and going, what do I want to take to them with the purposes of actually having a productive conversation. Not everything maybe needs to go to them or needs to be brought to them within this container of this conversation about this specific thing. You do want to go in with a clear intent and kind of keep it focused. Yeah, absolutely. Before you go, we ask every guest of Dear Life Kit for their best piece of advice. We would love to hear yours. Okay, I think mine is to trust your curiosity.

19:07Curiosity is a superpower. One that sort of always sticks out to me is learn to love those who love you. Find your people, hold your people, and go through life with those people. That was Life Kit reporter Andy Tegel talking to Wendy De La Rosa and Katie Gaddy-Toson. And that's our show. If you love Life Kit and want even more, follow us on Instagram. at NPR Life Kit. We post even more Dear Life Kit advice there. There's one about some homeowners association drama and another about a person who's worried that they aren't obsessed with their boyfriend. Hear that advice by following at NPR Life Kit on Instagram.

19:51This episode of Life Kit was produced by Sylvie Douglas. Our visuals editor is Beck Harlan and our digital editor is Malika Grebe. Megan Cain is our senior supervising editor and Beth Donovan is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Claire Marie Schneider and Margaret Serino. Engineering support comes from David Greenberg and Jimmy Keeley. I'm Mariel Segarra. Thanks for listening.