"Just A guy, not THE guy," and other advice Marielle loves

7:49Raj Punjabi-Johnson:in that there is something about that like i have airplane anxiety sometimes like turbulence anxiety and that thing about like what's the worst that could happen i sometimes also the reality hits me that like i have a lot of love in my life i've done a lot of things yeah and like haven't led the worst life like you know i haven't like oh 23 regrets that i'm like sitting on either right So yeah, mortality. That's crazy.

8:13Noah Michelson:I mean, this is getting very deep very quickly, but...

8:16Raj Punjabi-Johnson:It's like a bar conversation.

8:18Noah Michelson:It's like, yeah, are we drunk right now? But no, I thought about this when I was diagnosed with cancer in the end of 2023, and then I went through treatment in 2024. And a lot of people, when they are diagnosed, especially if there's... Because there's a moment where you're still waiting for all your scans and tests and biopsies to come back. And you don't know how serious it is. It hasn't been staged yet. And you really are confronting, like, what am I thinking about dying in the next six months, ten years? Like, or normal. Or like the expect the hopeful, like when I'm 90. A lot of people, when they're faced with that, they think, oh, my God, I have to make all these changes in my life.

9:06Noah Michelson:I didn't feel that way. That's not really good. Yeah. I was like, I show people and tell people that I love them. I treat people with care and respect. I'm doing work that's meaningful to me. I have a lot of family and friends and community. I don't know. I'm not happy all the time, but nobody is. That's not a reasonable expectation. I feel like I'm living a meaningful, joyful life.

9:31Marielle:That's kind of magical. It's a gift in that moment to have some perspective about what your life is. Yeah. You know? Yeah, that's intense.

9:39Raj Punjabi-Johnson:And I know you've talked about your experience on the podcast. Yeah. And I'm interested in knowing because we all talk to a lot of experts and we are kind of better versed at some topics than the other. What do you, Marielle, consider yourself an expert in?

9:53Noah Michelson:To a certain extent, I have some expertise in having had cancer. and going through treatment and being a part of being in the hospital and having to deal with the healthcare system and the massive bureaucracy that is the healthcare system. And it doesn't make sense a lot of the time. And I had some experience with that before, but then when you're going to a lot of appointments, you end up bumping up against some of the most ridiculous things. And there were many moments where I felt like profit was more important than patients. So there's that aspect of it and just dealing with all the red tape of health insurance.

10:39Marielle:I feel like I'm not really an expert in anything.

10:42Raj Punjabi-Johnson:I don't either. I was thinking about that. Yeah. I think mine's more existential. Mine's like, I feel like I'm an expert. I think I know a lot about therapy because I've been to a lot of therapy. So like I'm familiar with what all the talk means. I love psychology, et cetera. And I feel very comfortable in talking about therapy. So not an expert, but I feel comfortable there. Where do you feel comfortable and knowledgeable?

11:06Marielle:I mean, I've been an editor and a writer for almost 20 years. So I feel like storytelling is something I'm really good at. I'm really good at zooming out and seeing the big picture. And I really enjoy that. So someone will come to me, even Benji, he's my partner. He's a reporter. And he'll say, I'm writing this thing. And I'll say, OK, but did you think about this part of it? I feel like I'm often on the space station three miles up from the story and I can see the whole thing. And I find that really, really enjoyable.

11:34Raj Punjabi-Johnson:I just have to say one more thing. Just from being around Noah, Noah is an expert in people, in humans. I've seen him communicate with people, everyone he's ever communicated with, in a very tactful, diplomatic way. That's very sweet. Gentle and kind. sometimes like we get interesting emails like for the both of us and i'm like are you effing kidding me and noah writes back this like thoughtful balanced unbothered email yeah and i'm just like oh i was about to curse this dude out i that's because i take a beat that's what

12:08Marielle:my mom told me i probably want to curse him out too but i was like let's just wait a second and see what my real feelings well adjusted i would love to know more about life kit and how you guys choose what topics to do. Like what's that process like?

12:21Noah Michelson:Yeah, a lot of it. And y 'all may do this as well. It comes from your own life, right? You're just, you're walking through the world and realize that you don't actually fully understand this thing. When we have our pitch meetings, a lot of episode ideas come from either from me, our showrunner, our producers, our reporter, everybody sort of tunes into what's going on in their lives, I think. And that inspires some of their questions. We also get, we get a lot of book pitches, so we will go through those and sort of look, especially for books that have takeaways that are clear in them. Because sometimes there can be a book that has really interesting research, but it's more defining the problem than it is like coming up with a solution or even like researching a solution.

13:14Noah Michelson:We also do episodes where we have reporters from our newsroom come in. So whatever slice they're covering. Yeah, like our reporter, Will Stone, he covers – he's a health correspondent for NPR. And he just did a whole newsletter for us on strength training. and also like we had him on the show to talk about it and just like myths about strength training which were really useful and surprising to me too yeah yeah yeah i think we're similar yeah and how

13:47Marielle:we choose it is a lot of like what we are dealing with i think the trick for us which and i love this we were talking about this earlier before we came out in the air you guys can do sort of like more specific or little chunks because sometimes you just do 15 minutes and raj and i usually talk for at least 35 40 so we want a topic that feels big enough that we can really spend some time on it but not so big that we can't get everything or we can't get into it sometimes i think we think some things feel too specific yeah like we would love to do an episode on weddings for say but it's like weddings are so different depending on your budget depending on your culture depending on what you want.

14:28Marielle:So like, how do you give people advice about weddings when it could be so wildly different? We haven't cracked that one yet.

14:34Raj Punjabi-Johnson:Yeah. There are some topics where I'm like, I don't even know how we're going to approach this because it would be like four episodes.

14:39Marielle:Yeah.

14:40Raj Punjabi-Johnson:But I do think we also think a lot about what would feel very universal. And there are, at first I was like, oh no, we're also, we all have like different cultural perspectives. No, There are certain things that, especially, we had an episode on laundry. Full episode. It was one of our most popular ones. Everyone is thinking about this. And it's very universally appealing. And it's kind of cool to get into that mindset, what are we all kind of struggling with?

15:09Marielle:Yeah.

15:10Noah Michelson:Yeah, the day-to-day stuff. I think those broad episodes that could appeal to a lot of people tend to do well. Anything on finance or health. Yeah. And then life skills like laundry, like you said. Weddings is a certain subset of people. Sometimes, I mean, I know we've done some coverage on weddings, maybe not recently, but it can help to try to take a slice, I think. Like what about weddings? Like is it or even think of a slice of what stage are you at in the process? Like are you deciding whether you want to have a wedding at all? Are you, you know, just starting to plan the wedding? Is it the day before your wedding?

15:49Noah Michelson:And you're like, how do I actually have a good wedding day? Or like, how do you set yourself up to have a good wedding day? What kind of work do you put into it? Or maybe it's thinking about like the scope of the wedding. Because maybe for you, like it's to have a good wedding day, it can't be some massive thing, some performance essentially. Yeah, right. Or it could be like if you're – I could see you doing an episode about like deciding what kind of wedding you want. And part of that is also communicating with your family and setting expectations and saying like I know that this may be disappointing to you, but this is what we're deciding to do.

16:32Marielle:It's so true. Benji and I just got engaged and we're planning our wedding right now. and I've realized more and more that like the wedding's not actually about you or often it isn't it's about all these other people's expectations of what they want yeah especially if you have someone else paying for it if your parents are paying for it what do they want you know what I mean what does grandma want like yeah there's so much to take into it I will say Benji and I are not considering anyone else's feelings we're not literally having the party that we want to have

17:00Raj Punjabi-Johnson:but um I will say first of all um a cool thing you can do is get married in a non-trail like Like later, I got married when I was like 40 and no one really had a say because people are just excited that I was going to do it. They're like, finally. Oh my God, do whatever you want. So it became absolutely about me and my partner. I also have to say, I love the slice kind of thing because there's also like being a wedding, a good wedding guest. There's like gifting. Like I think there's like several layers to that wedding cake, if you will. And I think we can have whole episodes on that.

17:33Marielle:I think the thing that we struggle with is that we only have one episode a week. Yeah. And so if we have a really sort of a slice that a lot of people just aren't going to care about. Right. They're going to dip out, you know. Yeah. And that's something we worried about more when we first started. I think we now, thankfully, have a lot of listeners who just want to hear about a topic. Yeah. Even if they don't care that much, they're just like, oh, maybe I'll learn something. And that's exciting, too. But it's sort of like an algorithm thing. It's like, how do we figure out what people really want to hear?

18:03Noah Michelson:Yeah. No, that's a good point because we have three episodes a week.

18:06Marielle:Yeah. I'm so jealous of that.

18:08Noah Michelson:We have more room to give a buffet, as Megan puts it, sometimes our showrunner. And that seems to work really well for us. We also have the radio show, which is a version of one of the episodes from the week. And we have our Instagram and we do a lot of Instagram videos and we have our newsletter. So everything kind of like we can use little pieces from different things or even like we do versions of an episode for All Things Considered or Morning Edition. And that'll be like a three or four minute version of it.

18:44Marielle:That's so smart, though. I love that.

18:46Raj Punjabi-Johnson:I have a follow up with that one. With all the different mediums, do you feel like you have a different audience in mind? Like, how do you think about who are you talking to in LifeKit especially? I think that's something that we think about, too.

18:58Marielle:Yeah.

18:58Noah Michelson:Yes, I think we do have a different audience, especially for radio, for traditional radio. Broadcast tends to skew a little bit older. And also, it's a more general audience in the sense that they're not necessarily seeking you out. They're turning on their radio maybe when they're in the car, maybe when they first wake up. That's part of their routine. And there are some shows that radio listeners will seek out. They're like, oh, I always listen to Brian Lehrer in the morning or whatever. But very often it'll be people who are just listening to NPR. And so you have to, I think, give more context and also choose topics for the radio show or for those four-minute pieces that would apply to a quite broad audience.

19:46Noah Michelson:whereas on the podcast you can go a little more narrow because people are coming to you and they're they can read the headline and say yeah interested not interested you know and they'll if they're not interested in an episode they might listen still because they just like the vibe or they are like oh well it's not really for me but my sister's going through something like this um or they might skip that one and then and then listen to the next one i think for our audience in general for the LifeKit audience, I would say that we're going for people who are sort of striving. They want to make their lives better.

20:25Noah Michelson:They want to kind of, I mean, it's similar to like the title of your show, Am I Doing It Wrong? Like, how do I do it right? You know, or how do I just feel better? How do I get to the next step in my life? Maybe I'm thinking about like, am I going to try to buy property or am I going to pay off my student loans or how can I kind of get my finances in order or I want to be healthier. I want to make sure I'm on top of my screenings for whatever it is like colon cancer or breast cancer or like I want to start a new habit. Like people who are trying to do something. I find that that's a lot of our audience.

21:04Raj Punjabi-Johnson:You know, my friend Shia uses this word a lot and ease where I think it's It's not the first thing I go to, but it's exactly what I'm looking for more in life. And I don't mean ease as in, like, I get to sit back and do nothing. I mean ease as in less struggle. So when I'm trying to learn about, you know, doing my lipids labs on time and, like, maybe being better financially and, like, doing my taxes earlier and being better, like what you're talking about, it's to bring more ease in my life. Like, I want less struggle. Some mornings I wake up and I'm like, oh, my God, I have so many things to do and I'm late to all of them.

21:39Raj Punjabi-Johnson:I need less of that like who wants that to happen to their blood pressure like no one it's just stressful

21:45Marielle:we actually get a lot of grief from people about the name of the show and they say you know I feel like you are like telling us that we're doing everything wrong and like if you actually listen to the show that's sort of the opposite the show is sort of a provocative title but what you find out when you listen to the show is that Raj and I are doing everything wrong and we just like you said we want to do it a little bit better

22:07Raj Punjabi-Johnson:but we're like joyful and non-judgmental about it.

22:11Marielle:And so like, I think that is the thing is that like these shows are supposed to help people not be as anxious about life.

22:17Noah Michelson:Yeah.

22:18Marielle:You know, and I loved, you just had an episode with Prue Leith from Bake Off that you reran.

22:23Noah Michelson:Yeah.

22:23Marielle:And I was listening to it today and she was talking about her new cookbook and how it's called something like, life is too short to stuff a mushroom.

22:30Noah Michelson:Yeah, yeah.

22:31Marielle:And she was saying, you know, like, yeah, like spend your time worrying about things that really matter. And I think these kinds of shows that we do, and I feel really lucky to get to be part of it is like, we are telling people like, here are some ways just to make life a little easier and you can pick one or two and maybe try it. And if you do, things could be better. And if you don't, that's fine too.

22:51Noah Michelson:Yeah. I mean, ultimately there's not someone, there's no like permanent record. You know, there's no report card that someone's keeping track of everything you do. These changes that you make are just for yourself really, or your family, you and your family. And the idea of making your life easier, I like that a lot because it's sort of like sometimes I have things in my house that have just been a certain way for so long that I don't think about it. And then you can make one minor design change. Yes. And you're like, oh, that's so much easier. Your life changes. Your whole life changes. Yeah.

23:27Noah Michelson:Like getting a different laundry basket or getting like, oh, now that I – this is actually kind of the reverse of it. I have to figure out a solution, but I installed a new bathroom sink. And what's it called? The vanity thing. The vanity underneath it? Is that like, you know, the drawer thing underneath it? And also we redid the tile in the bathroom. So now it's a little bit higher. And then the mirror on the wall is in the same place. So the mirror that swings, the door swings open, hits the soap dispenser and knocks it over every time. So I have to get a different soap dispenser because this is just like not tenable.

24:09Noah Michelson:Yeah. But guess what? That's your morning routine.

24:11Raj Punjabi-Johnson:And I feel like it shapes your whole day when things run amok. That is life.

24:15Marielle:That is part of life.

24:17Noah Michelson:Yeah. All those little things, little tweaks that you can make that it's like, oh, I actually can change my life. Even in these small ways. And it changes my feeling of am I in chaos or do I kind of have this? That's the struggle I'm talking about.

24:32Raj Punjabi-Johnson:I just want to feel less mental chaos.

24:36Marielle:Well, that makes me wonder for you too. What are some things that you've learned from hosting the show, your shows, that you've actually incorporated into your own life? What are some of the advice that you've gotten in real time? And you're like, actually, that made my own life better.

24:52Noah Michelson:So many things. Well, one thing that I've actually been doing is I got an alarm clock. and I moved my phone out of my room. So many people have told us to do that. I can't do it.

25:06Marielle:I'm so jealous of you.

25:07Noah Michelson:I got an analog alarm clock. It does not connect to the internet. So it's great. Like it makes me really happy that I finally was able to do this because I kept scrolling through my phone every morning. And even when I would block the apps, like Instagram or whatever, I still would find stuff to look at on the phone. You know, the weather app. Yeah, you're deep diving the weather. It's just ridiculous or looking at old photos or whatever. And it's like I don't want the first thing I do to be looking at this device. So we have done a lot of episodes around, you know, phone health. Like basically how to have some separation from your phone and use it as a tool rather than letting it use you.

25:50Noah Michelson:yeah um also there's one there it's everything from like like big picture emotional to the tiny little things like when you get another laundry tip if you get blood stains on something you can use hydrogen peroxide to remove them and it works so well like it just kind of disappears it instantly apparently you can also try using cold water but i kind of like the hydrogen peroxide it makes it like bubble and it just works really well another is about moving like just you first of all that you don't have to do your exercise all in one chunk you don't have to do your cardio all in like one 30 minute slot you can do it throughout the day and just fit things in and tie them together with something else you're already doing so you do calf raises when you brush your teeth You know, yesterday as I was writing this episode, which is about investing diversification, and it was really thick.

26:50Noah Michelson:It was like it's nutrient dense. And so every time I wrote, I finished writing a section of it, I would do 10 squats. I love that. Yeah. And it helped me also get like, I don't know, it helped me think in a way.

27:05Raj Punjabi-Johnson:Oh, we just had an episode with Dr. Wendy Suzuki on, you know, memory and exercise and brain health. And she was talking about that. And it was so useful. Like, I love the idea of kind of like exercising throughout the day. And yeah, your creativity and your like mental acuity, just like, yeah, it's. You get sharper. Yeah.

27:23Marielle:The mind body link is real. And I think, yeah, the more you move your body, the more. I find that too. When I'm trying to write something, I go on a walk and I write a lot of the piece I'm writing in my notes app on my phone. Yeah, it's so fun. Because I need a little bit of distraction and my body's moving. And yeah, I think that's great. Raj, what are some of the things that you have learned that you have incorporated?

27:44Raj Punjabi-Johnson:One that I am thinking about right now because we're talking about brain health. We had a brain health episode with Dr. Rita. And I remember, you know, I bring up vices in our podcast a lot, like smoking weed and drinking and things I do to like just regulate and self-sedate. I'm sorry.

28:01Marielle:Raj loves a martini. And Dr.

28:03Raj Punjabi-Johnson:Rita gave me permission to have my martini when I get, I do get, you know, lectured a lot in a good way, as I should, about alcohol. But she was like, have the martini, like drink your drinks, but then for 48 hours after you have to like flush your life out, like water, like vegetables and stuff. And like, it was a very specific piece of advice and you can take it if you want to, but it did make me think a lot about moderation and just balance in life. Like I'm a yogi and that goes with yoga a lot. Like, you know, being able to balance things, you know.

28:35Marielle:We did get a very angry email, though, about that tip where they said, you're a doctor. How dare you say that we can drink? I know. Like, drinking is so bad for you. And that's the other thing we love about our experts, I think, is that our experts are pretty good about moderation, too. We don't want to be prescriptive. We don't want to be prohibitive. It's not realistic. People aren't going to do it.

28:53Raj Punjabi-Johnson:And also, think about how we feel about authority that's too prescriptive. Like, we're just going to shut it off. Like, it feels judgy.

28:59Marielle:Yeah, I agree. What about you? So many. I feel like so many good things. And you take good advice. We have this amazing guest named Jason Tetro. He's called the germ guy. He lives in Canada. And he's done a bunch of episodes with us about just germs everywhere. One of the ones that just shocked me was the idea of a poo plume. Oh, yeah. So when you flush the toilet, if you don't shut the lid, poo is just flying up, up to six feet in the air. Stop. And landing everywhere. If your toothbrush is by the toilet, there's probably poo on it.

29:32Noah Michelson:I do know that. I do keep my toothbrush in that little cabinet. That's very smart. But what about when you're at a restaurant and you're in the bathroom and it doesn't have a lid?

29:44Marielle:So he says, literally, he's like, flush it and run.

29:49Raj Punjabi-Johnson:I do that.

29:49Marielle:Get out of the stall. He's like, make sure you're ready to go.

29:52Raj Punjabi-Johnson:I've said this on that podcast episode. I flush with my foot and I run. I'm like extra. There's some things that we care about as individuals and some things we care less about. I'm really weird about the poo plume and the pee plume.

30:04Marielle:And for the most part, the poo plume's not going to hurt you. Well, that's the thing.

30:09Noah Michelson:It's like if it were, then people would be getting really sick all the time.

30:13Marielle:But just in my head, once I heard that, I was like, I shut the lid every single time and I run as well. So things like that.

30:22Raj Punjabi-Johnson:I love a public bathroom sprinter. Like that's who I am now.

30:25Marielle:Yeah. Another one too. We had an episode on like how to take care of your eyes. and I wear contacts and she was like, do not ever sleep in your contacts. Never.

30:34Raj Punjabi-Johnson:Or wear them in the shower. Or wear them in the shower.

30:36Marielle:I still do that. I know. But that was, that seemed less dangerous. Maybe I'm just telling myself that, but she was like, I was like, if I'm, you know, away for a weekend and I forgot my solution to store my contacts, would you rather I slept in them or put them in tap water? She was like, I would rather that you just couldn't see for the weekend yeah do not do either and so like that i get a lot of wake-up calls on this show because i

31:00Raj Punjabi-Johnson:do appreciate the drama because i think i take things like i'm a little too lax about things and when these experts who are really you know experts in their field in every sense of the word look into our eyes and tell us things like i'm like okay maybe i should take this seriously

31:14Noah Michelson:yeah but okay if you can't see it depends how bad your eyesight is but if you can't see for the weekend like you're gonna crash your car you know i hope you're not driving no you're right there

31:24Marielle:are always things but she was just kind of saying like it's really bad to sleep in your contacts yeah and i think a lot of us haven't thought about that yeah yeah i've sort of taken my glasses places because i took that very seriously are there topics or episodes that are too personal

31:39Noah Michelson:is there anything that you that you wouldn't do i think we've had a hard time finding a way into talking about sex, even though it's a big part of life. Because I also do allow some of my personal life into the show and I try to be intentional about it. So like I will share something when it feels like it furthers the point or it might make people feel less alone or it just like helps explain something. But there are certain things that are off limits For me, I'm figuring out what those are, but really it's about personal details, about my family, anything like that. And also about my love life.

32:26Noah Michelson:I can talk in the abstract about things like, oh, I went through a breakup and my dad gave me this advice. But I'm not going to say, well, I'm dating this person right now and blah, blah, blah. And even the mention of dating sometimes in like even saying that I am someone who dates or like has dated or whatever, like implies sex. And then so suddenly you feel like, I don't know, I came up as a reporter, like I wasn't used to sharing anything of myself. So I feel like that also could open the door to you being seen in a sexual way. And sometimes that can happen even when you haven't said anything about that part of your life.

33:13Noah Michelson:It's like people can make weird comments. I shared this on another show, actually, but someone wrote a comment about how I say my last name, which is Segarra. It's a Puerto Rican last name. They said that it's over the top and it sounds like I'm having an orgasm every time I say it. Oh, I can't. And I was like, a rolled R sounds like an orgasm to you. Interesting. Right. You know? That says a lot about you. It says a lot about you. Yeah. But I felt like you took something that's very sacred to me and made it sexual and then also turned me into a sex object, you know, like in that moment. It's also racially charged.

33:50Noah Michelson:It's totally, yeah. It's totally racist. Like, it's misogynistic, too. It's all of the things. It's like, yeah, it was just gross in a lot of ways. But things like that sometimes make me hesitate even more. I hate that, though. Yeah.

34:05Marielle:But it's true as a public figure, which we all are now, just by default. And then as a woman who's a public figure, like, the stakes are higher, I think. And I don't blame you for even hesitating about that.

34:19Noah Michelson:Yeah, wanting to shield that part of myself. And in general, being with NPR, there are some things that we, especially on the radio that you can't talk about. Even when we have episodes on like, we did an episode on constipation. And it's like, we had to, I don't think we've run it on the radio. But if you're doing it in a medical context, like it's probably okay, but sometimes it can be a fine line and you're like, okay, there's stuff that I think maybe we're a little more conservative about for that reason. But yeah, I think, and sex is just like, it's like, what are we doing? Like, what kind of tips are we going to give people?

34:59Noah Michelson:You know, that's like a whole other podcast. Yeah.

35:02Marielle:What about you? Stuff that you consider off limits?

35:06Raj Punjabi-Johnson:I was thinking about, like, you share a lot of personal stuff, but in a really balanced way, I struggle with it. I'm an overshare, too. And I have to really think about what I'm saying, because when I'm sitting here sometimes, especially because, like, the wonderful people and producers I work with are, like, dope women. And I feel very comfortable with Noah. So I'm kiki-ing with my girlfriends. Yeah. And it can get out of control. I like a good laugh. And I have to be really – and it's about other people. Like it's about my partner. It's about my family. Like I don't want to give any details that they would feel violated by.

35:43Raj Punjabi-Johnson:Because there's very little I could say about myself that – you know what? I'm a very open book for better or worse.

35:49Marielle:But you're right. You have to remember – Yeah.

35:51Noah Michelson:There's other people.

35:52Marielle:And the platform you have and how many people are going to hear it and all of that. That's important to consider. Yeah.

35:57Noah Michelson:You can forget that people listen. A lot of people. And it can feel like you're just having a really fun conversation. Yes. And there are things that I would be, I'm very open one-on-one with people, even if I've just met them. Like I'm, I can be like, you know, I'm, I'm okay with talking about having had breast cancer, like pretty quickly. Partly, I don't think it's something that we should stigmatize, you know? That's right. And I think that makes people feel less alone. But yeah, I'm, and I did talk about that on the show, but there are things that I would like joke around with you guys, for instance, about, you know, off mic that I wouldn't on mic.

36:32Noah Michelson:Because I'd just be like, that part of myself, I don't know who's going to listen to this. You know, I'm sharing this now with anybody, basically. Yeah, exactly.

36:42Raj Punjabi-Johnson:Noah, is there any subject you don't feel comfortable about? I don't have anything.

36:47Marielle:But I also came up, you know, a lot of the work that I did before I started doing this is like, I wrote these crazy essays every week about the queer community. And it was like activism in a way. And like, I was writing about being sexually assaulted. I was writing about my dad dying of cancer.

37:01Noah Michelson:Like I put so much of myself out in the world, but I don't think a lot of people do do that.

37:08Marielle:No, it's not the norm. It's not the norm. And like you were saying, a lot can come with that. And people feel like they know you then. People feel like they have a right to comment on your life then. And you have to decide, you know, how much you want to share. I think it's really important.

37:23Raj Punjabi-Johnson:And I think being intentional about it is protecting yourself. We had an episode of the podcast. It's the only one that I did not co-host. It was on grief. For a number of reasons, I don't feel I could have talked about the subjects they were talking about grief-related. I didn't feel safe. And Noah was so gentle about it, and so was everyone else. And we had a wonderful colleague step in, and it was such a great episode. I couldn't have been my best self on that. And I think being like, this is me at 41. Me at 25 would have powered through it and then probably had a mentee B after and called my therapist scream crying.

37:59Raj Punjabi-Johnson:So why? Why? For what? I want to give to the world what I can, and then what I can't, I'm going to ask someone else to do it.

38:07Marielle:I love that. Yeah.

38:08Noah Michelson:That's great. I'm glad you did that. Thank you. I feel much more myself, much more confident in myself as the years pass. And I actually, another piece of advice that I got that has stuck with me was from my therapist. It was like, you don't have to be nice all the time. or nice to everyone. You know, what is even like reexamining what niceness is and how authentic it is. You know, that doesn't mean don't be kind or loving. It doesn't mean be like rude to people or mean. It just means like you don't always have to put on this act like you're the nice girl. Yeah. When what's happening in this situation doesn't deserve niceness.

38:54Noah Michelson:Yeah. You know, that has stuck with me and I've really put that into play. in my life in the past like five years.

39:01Raj Punjabi-Johnson:That's beautiful. I want to also ask, we talked about things that we are not necessarily comfortable talking about. Are there any topics where you feel like are such an enigma that everyone wants to know about, but you like haven't gotten great advice about it or you can't really find it? And I'm going to give you an example. Like we're going to do an episode on dreaming. There's some science behind it, but there's still a lot we don't know. So it's like, there's a certain comfort to like figuring how to do it right. Some topics you actually can't do right or like get better at because we haven't nailed out enough information.

39:32Marielle:Yeah, we did put on headaches too. And we had the head of the Yale School of Medicine for headaches. And it blew our mind because we talked to him for like an hour. And at the end, I was like, Raj, I'm not sure that we learned how to do headaches better. No, we did learn a lot. We learned a ton. But not how to. But we didn't learn that much. It was actually practical advice because he was just like, we're still learning a lot and they're really complicated.

39:53Noah Michelson:That is the challenge when you're, especially in the medical field, there's just a lot that we don't know. And we assume that doctors know everything. And actually, there's a lot that they just sort of shrug and say, well, we can't find the cause for your pain. Terrifying. Yeah. There's a lot where they're still researching. The further you get into it, the more confused you get sometimes. I think that sometimes when there is debate, like there, for instance, like when we did the breast cancer screening episode, there are different guidelines from different medical organizations for when women should start getting mammograms and also whether they should do breast self-exams or like a physical breast exam in their doctor's office, whether those are useful or not.

40:42Noah Michelson:And it makes sense given their specialties, right? Like the gynecological association is like we see the benefit of doing these exams. We find breast cancer this way, especially for women who are not eligible for mammograms yet, which is happening more and more that women under 40 are getting breast cancer. That's I was 34 when I was diagnosed. And my doctor found it by feeling it on a just in a regular gynecological exam. So they will say, no, you should keep doing them. And then, like, other medical groups that are reputable will say, no, you don't need to do those. Their, like, research shows that it doesn't generally increase the risks or increase the chances of survival or whatever their reasons are.

41:29Noah Michelson:So in terms of giving advice on this thing, like, we had to pull back in that episode and say, okay, so there's disagreement here. Here's what's underneath the disagreement. Here's what these people say. Here's what these experts say. And then we talked to two oncologists, two breast oncologists who were like, we think generally you should start your mammograms at age 40 unless you have history or like a genetic mutation and you should get those physical exams done. Like they're more conservative because they see young women coming in with breast cancer all the time. When there's something that where there's still debate over it, reasonable debate, we try to explain what the debate is about.

42:12Noah Michelson:not always like sometimes it's so in the weeds and so unclear that you can't really do an episode about that topic but if it's something that is affecting so many people like headaches it kind of feels like you need to do the episode yeah and just explain what's out there exactly

42:32Marielle:and that's where we sort of landed it was like we maybe can't give you great advice on this but like let's talk about the landscape and why this might be happening to you. Or maybe you didn't know that this is what was happening to you. That feels useful to me as well.

42:45Raj Punjabi-Johnson:And I love like showing respect to people in that way where, like you said, you tell them what the experts are saying and kind of you're like, okay, you decide what you should do. Here's all the evidence. I mean, when it was time for COVID vaccines, like we, I learned a lot about the mRNA, you know, style of vaccine and stuff. And I made an educated decision. And I love that I was given, and to me it was a no-brainer, but I jumped into the research, and I love being offered information. It's empowering. And it goes to say, you're listening to a podcast.

43:17Marielle:We are not doctors, and the doctors we have on are just specific doctors. You should never be taking that kind of advice just from a podcast, I would say. You know, like learn how to clean the grout in your tub. Sure. But like something like that, like get some different opinions. Talk to your own doctor.

43:36Noah Michelson:It's a starting point. It's a starting point. And a reminder to go in and talk to your doctor and get these tests done. But yeah, we can't give medical advice in that way. And we can't give financial advice in that way. We can't tell people, yeah, invest in these funds or whatever. No, we can generally explain to them what different kinds of investment funds how they work and what it means, for instance, to diversify, like to what a stock is, what a stock investment is, what a bond is, how the risk is different for those, why you might want to have some investments in international stocks, not just US-based stocks.

44:13Noah Michelson:And then they can take those building blocks and either talk to a financial advisor or build a financial portfolio on their own.

44:21Raj Punjabi-Johnson:Yeah.

44:21Marielle:I love that. I think to end, I would love to know if either of you have an episode that you still want to do? Like, what's your dream episode that you haven't done yet? Like, I will say mine. Yeah, we've been trying to do supplements for forever. And we're going to do it. But we either get doctors who say when we try and book them as a guest, they say no one should be taking supplements because they should get all their vitamins from Whole Foods. Or it's more like influencer people who are like, let me sell you my supplement. Yeah, we really want someone in the middle. And my other one is my dream.

44:52Marielle:I'm putting this out there in the universe. I really want the barefoot contessa Ina Garten to come on and do baking with us oh like am I baking wrong I love

45:01Raj Punjabi-Johnson:all of her videos I love she's just the perfect person for that so I know if you're listening get in here okay I have mine do you have yours I have one I think yeah okay go for it I've thought

45:14Noah Michelson:a lot about drinking water quality oh yeah interesting like how to get a good filter for your drinking water and how to know what's in your tap water because a lot of the time people just say oh yeah the tap water here is great yeah new york yeah new york and they might say that in other places too yeah the tap water is fine and you almost seem like when you go to somebody's house and you ask like do you have a filter they it can seem a little like you've got a tinfoil hat on you know but actually there is a lot of stuff in our drinking water even once it's filtered that you'd want to filter out, that I want to filter out.

45:53Noah Michelson:And I thought about that after I got cancer as well. And a lot of the time, we just still don't understand the environmental causes of cancer, of breast cancer specifically. We understand some of the lifestyle causes and the genetic causes, but there's a lot that's just sort of like, maybe something in the environment caused it. And so that makes you say, okay, well, where are some places where I can tighten up around that? Not that I'm sure that this is what caused it, but that this is one opportunity to maybe be healthier. Yeah. Do better. Be exposed to fewer chemicals. Yeah. Yeah. And water is such a big one.

46:36Noah Michelson:Yeah.

46:37Raj Punjabi-Johnson:Yeah. That's a really good one. What's your dream, Raj? So mine, I would love for us to do an episode on, like, self-confidence or feeling beautiful. And I would want Rihanna to be our expert. Okay. So that's, like, here's the thing. Hear me out. Like, I think, like, being sexy would be a really fun, like, subject because it's so broad. Like, what does that mean to you? Like, sometimes just to people, it's, like, being really smart and having read a lot of books in that, like, book smart. And sometimes it's, like, looking and feeling good and dressing well. And, like, I feel like Rihanna's very confident.

47:10Marielle:She is.

47:10Raj Punjabi-Johnson:She's the queen of confidence.

47:12Marielle:I don't know that she would give us great tips, though.

47:14Raj Punjabi-Johnson:I feel like there would be a lot of good one-liners that wouldn't make any sense to most people. But, like, I love that. We would enjoy it. You just want to talk to Rihanna.

47:22Marielle:That's it. Rosh just wants to hang out with Rihanna. That's what it is.

47:26Noah Michelson:I think you should get India Aree on.

47:28Marielle:Oh. She's a really good one. Her song video.

47:30Noah Michelson:Yeah. I love that. It's a song that's all about self-love. I'll take anyone who really has consistently shown us self-love. Yeah.

47:40Raj Punjabi-Johnson:Not just like performatively, but you can feel it in their energy. Yeah. But I do want, it doesn't have to be either one of these people. I want an episode in like how to really love on yourself all the time.

47:50Marielle:Yeah.

47:50Raj Punjabi-Johnson:All the time.

47:51Marielle:All right. Well, we're going to make it happen then.

47:53Raj Punjabi-Johnson:You calling Rihanna for me?

47:54Marielle:Yeah. Let me DM her really quick. Hey, Riri. Well, she's not busy making an album. So she can't. I mean, maybe she is, but. Hopefully. She's making babies. This has been so good. Thank you for coming in and chatting with us and sort of going behind the scenes.

48:13Noah Michelson:Yeah, this was really fun. It's nice to meet you both. Yeah, same.

48:21Marielle:Okay, Raj, I'm not going to ask you if you've been giving advice wrong because that's silly. But what did you think of today's episode?

48:28Raj Punjabi-Johnson:I thought it was really fun. I felt very supported. And it's cool to see the kind of behind the scenes stuff that happens. Because I think all three of us are really trying our best to be a vehicle for this advice. And we're not really giving it. We're just kind of like, here's the experts. And then kind of like chiming in as far as what we know. I love that. I like to give our listeners just like a little more intel about that.

48:52Marielle:That's the funny thing. When we, before we start recording and we meet the expert, we always say to them, the show is kind of like three friends hanging out. And two of us are dummies. And the third person is an expert. And they're lovingly schooling us. And so, yeah, I feel like you and I were the conduit for the advice, but we aren't really giving it. Although sometimes we do. We've lived a lot of life.

49:16Raj Punjabi-Johnson:I know.

49:17Marielle:And we have some things to say, too. But it was great to have another person who does this for a living and hear what their life is like. Working at NPR, it's different than what we do. And I just love sort of going behind the scenes and taking a second to do that.

49:32Raj Punjabi-Johnson:Absolutely. And it's nice to know that we see our listeners as kind of family, too, and we're trying to do the best we can for them and for us.

49:41Marielle:It feels a little corny.

49:42Raj Punjabi-Johnson:I know.

49:42Marielle:But we really mean it.

49:43Raj Punjabi-Johnson:I am corny. Yeah, same. So, no, I'm very comfortable with that.

49:46Marielle:Absolutely.

49:47Raj Punjabi-Johnson:She's cute, too, though.

49:48Marielle:She's real cute. Anyway, until next time, as long as there are things to get wrong, we're going to be right here to help you do it better.

49:55Raj Punjabi-Johnson:I love y 'all. Am I Doing It Wrong is a co-production between HuffPost and ACAST.

50:02Marielle:Our producers are Eve Bishop, Carmen Borca Carrillo, and Malia Agudelo.

50:07Raj Punjabi-Johnson:Our executive producers are Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rutter.

50:10Marielle:Special thanks to HuffPost's head of audience, Abby Williams.

50:13Raj Punjabi-Johnson:Head of video, Will Took.

50:15Marielle:As well as Kate Palmer, Marta Rodriguez, and Terry DeAngelo.

50:18Raj Punjabi-Johnson:And we're your hosts, Raj Punjabi Johnson.

50:21Marielle:And Noah Michelson.

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51:07Raj Punjabi-Johnson:Download the latest episode and subscribe at schwab.com slash podcast.

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