Want more intimacy in your relationships? Conflict could help

0:00Priya Parker:This message comes from Northwestern Mutual. Their financial professionals ask better questions to uncover blind spots and new opportunities you may not have considered. Get started at NM.com, the Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. So I went swimming this weekend for the first time in, I want to say it was 15 or 20 years. Wow. And for a lot of reasons, I think I never really liked pools. I don't like the smell of them. They kind of grossed me out. But I've been thinking about parenthood, actually. And I've been thinking, I need to know how to swim if I'm going to have a kid.

0:39So finally, I went to the pool this weekend. And I was so much better than I thought I would be. It reminded me that I can do things that are hard. And, like, I can learn skills. And then to also treat swimming not as an identity, but as a skill. Yeah. Right? It's like in Spanish, there's like ser versus a star. Ser is like a permanent state and a star is a condition. And like in a way you move swimming from a ser, like I'm not a swimmer. Yeah. To like an a star, which is like I am practicing learning to swim. Yeah, I am swimming right now. You're verbing, not nouning. Yeah. Hey, it's Mariel Cigarra.

1:20You're listening to Life Kit from NPR. And that was author and conflict resolution facilitator Priya Parker. She has a new book called The Art of Fighting, and she talks about why we need to be able to fight with the people we care about. And I promise this connects back to the swimming thing. And I've learned, just like you swimming, I've learned that conflict is a skill. Yeah. And I know this because I grew up hating conflict. I am conflict averse. Everyone in my family is conflict averse. And I'm a conflict resolution facilitator. who is conflict averse. And I think one of the reasons those of us who are relatively effective is because we have such deep empathy for the people who want to flee in the room.

2:05And by the way, like swimming, conflict is actually super physical, not in the way we think. All conflict is physical, but within ourselves. So when the heat rises, when you start experiencing potential isolation or fear or separation, we have physical symptoms. Our hands get sweaty, our heart starts to palpitate, our mouth gets dry. And so some of the skills for holding conflict and holding conflict with those we care about is actually just learning that those things happen and learning how to manage some of the physical signals that our body is sending us to flee. Yeah, that bit of discomfort.

2:46it can feel like that means this is wrong. That means I shouldn't be doing this. Exactly. We assume if heat is rising and we are getting these warning signals that this must be bad. But actually, the reframe is, oh, there's something relevant here. I should pay attention. Takeaway one, conflict is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, Priya argues it's necessary if we want to be in close, authentic relationships. So when you have a moment of misalignment with someone, try thinking of it as a signal. There's something here to talk about. Now Priya's first book was called The Art of Gathering, and we've had her on the show a lot to talk about community and gatherings and friendship.

3:29So I told her, the last thing I want to do at a gathering is fight. It's just that my inclination when I gather with people is that if people are fighting, this thing has gone off the rails. And that may be true. And this is not saying that fighting is on the rails. I am interested in group life. I'm interested in what allows us, despite all of the obstacles in modern life, despite having different schedules and different beliefs and all of these things, how can we still meaningfully connect? And gathering is one tool to help us get better at group life. and conflict is another tool to help us get better at group life.

4:15And in my 20 years as a conflict resolution facilitator, I've learned that healthy communities need love, but healthy communities also need heat. Yeah. You say specifically that healthy community needs healthy conflict. What is healthy conflict as opposed to unhealthy conflict? When trouble rises, we often oscillate between these two stances, which is kind of avoidance, pretending like nothing is here, folks, and escalation, kind of burning the house down. There's a place between what I call unhealthy peace and unhealthy conflict, which is healthy heat or healthy conflict. And I think of that space as a place where a group or a group of people are able to hold tension with care long enough to be generative or clarifying.

5:08And so when we don't know how to fight well, we end up either saying nothing at all, and then it implodes or exiting. And so learning how to be what I call an artful fighter is actually an investment in community. Takeaway two, healthy conflict can bring structure and clarity to your relationships. It can help you figure out your priorities as individuals, as a group, and move forward together. Or not. Now, how do we have those conversations? We'll talk about that after the break.

5:46Priya Parker:This message comes from Granger. This is the story of The One. As a maintenance supervisor at a manufacturing facility, he knows keeping the line up and running is a top priority. That's why he chooses Grainger. Because when a drive belt gets damaged, Grainger makes it easy to find the exact specs for the replacement product he needs. And next day delivery helps ensure he'll have everything in place and running like clockwork. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done. This message comes from Northwestern Mutual. Feeling financially overwhelmed?

6:23Priya Parker:The right time is right now to feel more confident about your money. Northwestern Mutual's personalized planning approach and comprehensive solutions are designed to give you confidence. Their financial professionals meet you where you are and ask better questions to uncover new opportunities. Get started at NM.com, the Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. This message comes from Rinse. Your dog believes you are magnificent, capable of anything. Your dog has watched you spend hours a week moving fabric between machines and has never once lost faith. The question was never whether you could become the person your dog thinks you are.

7:04Priya Parker:It's what's in the way. Turns out, just the laundry. Not anymore. Rinse picks up your laundry, cleans it expertly, and delivers it back while you get on with being magnificent. Sign up today at Rents.com. Rents. It's time to be great. This message comes from Mint Mobile. If you're tired of spending hundreds on big wireless bills, bogus fees, and free perks, Mint Mobile is for you. Shop plans at mintmobile.com slash switch. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. I understand that conflict is a part of life, but often I find myself asking, is it worth it with this person? When do you get into it and when do you just pull back or walk away without confronting?

7:51Priya lays out some questions we can ask ourselves in the book. Can I continue to engage meaningfully without facing? Do I care enough about this group to take this on? Do I still have longing for this group or friendship or relationship? Is this conflict touching on a core value of mine? Does the group need to reflect those values for me to be a part of it? Knowing conflict arises in every group and relationship, are these the people I want to be in a mess with? Do I think that by saying something I could alter the situation? Because sometimes we're in situations where we have tried, like we have had conversations before or like you said, like we don't really have the power or we've known somebody for a very long time and we've seen how they behave.

8:36And we're like – Can't teach an old dog new tricks. Yeah. That's just who they are. And I have a section in there called Seven Reasons Not to Face. And one of them is it's not a rift. It's a revelation. Right? So it's like when people show you who they are, believe them. So that old quote. And so much of what I'm trying to invite the reader to do is to actually just become curious and to build what I call the skills of group intelligence, which is to become curious and say, what's actually happening here? Why is this happening? And in modern life, our bounty and our tragedy is that we get to choose who we want to belong to.

9:15We get to choose the groups we're in. And so one of the reasons I say it's a tragedy is it's also a lot of labor. It's a lot of work. And along with all of that, it's so easy to walk away from a group or a friend. It's never been easier to exit. But over the long term, you keep exiting, right? You're going to end up pretty alone. Takeaway three, choose your battles. Before you really get into it with someone, air your grievances, try to work towards a solution. do ask yourself questions like, how much do I care about this person or this group? Can I continue to meaningfully engage without facing this?

9:52And do I think that by saying something, I could change the situation? At the same time, don't shy away from a disagreement just because you're afraid. When we have decided that someone or some group is worth fighting with, I mean, where do we begin? Great question. So a mentor of mine, Rhonda Sleem, she would say to us, 90 % of the success of the room, of the gathering, of the fight happens before anyone enters. I mean, I fight people in my head all the time. Exactly. Exactly. And so part of it is preparing ourselves. Part of us is preparing the other person or the group. and part of us is preparing the room.

10:40And so if a group that you're part of or a team or an association or a family member or a wedding, something happens in a group and there's a conflict or there's a reckoning, the first thing to do is to get curious and just actually ask, what is the need here? What is this actually about underneath? And be curious and humble about where that might reach you. So one of the problems is so many of us are actually, we often don't have the right fight. We're having the wrong conversation. And so I'll give a simple example. A friend of mine, maybe a former friend of mine, I'm not going to label it, a person I was very close to.

11:24She was somebody who we'd text, we'd joke. Sometimes we'd have virtual like tease or call, you know, we just like made an effort. and one day basically it just kind of went cold turkey and then I basically didn't hear much from her for like six months and I kind of like first I was like really mad then I was really hurt then I was confused you know you go through this whole cycle yeah and then I was like mourning the death of my friendship by the way all in my own head but still like real feelings real emotions yeah And then one day I get a text from her, like a chirpy text, and it was like, hey, it's been a while.

12:04Can we catch up? You're like, where have you been? So part of the art of fighting is finding a way to expand our range of options in that moment. Do I pretend nothing happened? Right? Do I let her lead? Do I say I'm really mad? What do I say? There's actually an infinite number of possibilities if we pause. So first of all, I feel my own feelings. Yeah. So then I said, okay, Priya, what's the need here? I can't remember if she said catch up or debrief. Like, I don't need a debrief. Like, this is insulting. It's also like corporate speak. Yeah. My need wasn't to like catch up about our lives over the last six months.

12:42In my mind, I was like, she didn't get access to that. It's kind of like when an old boyfriend or lover comes back into your life with a you up text. Exactly. Exactly. I don't know you. like these aren't our agreements yeah and so i pause and i texted back something like i don't know about you but i felt a lot of like a huge loss in our friendship and a huge change over the last six months i'm not sure a catch-up or a debrief is what we need i'd i'd be more interested or up for a clearing you know three dots three dots three dots you know she's responding Were you like sweating? I am. I'm sweating.

13:28My heart's palpitating. I'm also mad. I also love her. I'm like, ah. And all the feelings. And then she writes back something like, thanks for the good language. That's right. I think a clearing is much better language. I've also experienced a big change. I'd be up for a clearing. Okay. And so what I did in that text exchange, what I was trying to do was ask, is this worth facing? Do I care about this enough to be honest about it? But the second thing is I was trying to set up the right fight. So in my language, I was saying a clearing versus a debrief to try so that we wouldn't be like coming on the phone or however we chose to do it and be having two totally different conversations.

14:09Yeah. And so part of what I'm doing is I'm trying to like right the ship so that when we get, when we're deciding to come together, it's nervous for both of us. Like neither one of us are going to have this conversation. Who wants to fight? Who wants to go through this? We're actually both agreeing. It's almost like setting the terms. I mean, it's all informal. And so once we actually got on the phone, we both knew what we were getting on for. Hey, how did the clearing go? It went well. As a clearing, it was a very, I think, for me, helpful, effective, cathartic conversation to hear where she was coming from.

14:43And then I got to share where I was coming from. I think like so many of these clearings or conversations, like it doesn't always mean that you come back together again. the whole thing became a loosening of the friendship. Takeaway four. Before a fight, think about what you and the group or you and another person actually need in this moment. Do you need to repair old misunderstandings and hurts? Do you need to understand why a person behaved the way they did? Do both of you need to state explicitly how you disagree on an issue and feel heard? You want to set the foundation ahead of time so the other person knows what to expect and you end up having the right conversation.

15:22After the break, we talk about being direct and scheduling time to fight.

15:31Priya Parker:This message comes from Grainger. This is the story of The One. As a maintenance supervisor at a manufacturing facility, he knows keeping the line up and running is a top priority. That's why he chooses Grainger. Because when a drive belt gets damaged, Grainger makes it easy to find the exact specs for the replacement product he needs. And next day delivery helps ensure he'll have everything in place and running like clockwork. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done. You know, I was thinking about this. I would call myself a direct person, meaning that I'm just likely to mention things that are on my mind or say when I felt that an interaction was weird, try to get to the bottom of it.

16:19And sometimes that's well received and sometimes it is not. So I wonder how we can communicate across this divide if one person is more direct and one person isn't. I read a wonderful article by Raina Cohen in The Atlantic years ago, and she looked at this question, but from the perspective of basically couples who are married to each other, where one would call themselves direct, and the other one wants to flee, right? It's sort of indirect. Correct. And one of the things that she found was that the couples in which they had totally different conflict styles, because at some level, what you're also talking about is directness versus indirectness is also it's culturally relevant.

17:07Right. It's also related to age, related to gender, related to workplace norms, related to all sorts of things. So one of the things that she found within couples who one of them wanted to be direct and just get it out with all the time and the other one never wanted to have any conversation ever was they scheduled their fights. Huh. That's sweet. And they described it as the same way as you go to a dentist for dental hygiene. You don't wait until you go to a cavity every six months. It's sort of marriage hygiene. And though it might sound literally like getting your tooth taken out, it deescalates it for the people who fear conflict.

17:45They just know like, oh, this is just what we do. Like he's not divorcing me. We're just having one of our scheduled meetings. And then for the person who feels like they really want to get stuff off their chest all the time, it allows them to have a container where they're not deeply frustrated. Because, right, if you want to have a fight in something your person's, like, not wanting to, then it adds a second layer, which is, like, we can't even talk about the things that are important. Yeah. And so even though that's about a couple, part of why The Art of Fighting is actually about groups and looking at the context of a community is because I think in modern life we actually need to create our own subcultures.

18:24Yeah. Friends do this, right? Inside jokes are shorthand for culture, right? The ways you hang out, the things you call yourself are shorthand for culture. And so in these longer term friendships, relationships, family life, it's actually over time finding ways. I'm almost like agreements of like, can we have this conversation? Takeaway five. People have different levels of comfort with confrontation or even mild disagreement. Some of us are more direct. Some of us hold things in for longer. One way to bridge the gap is to schedule time to fight. Another way to put that is schedule time to check in on what's going well and what's going less well.

19:02Where you could support each other better. Or basically what grievances you have with each other. Then it becomes a practice and it gives everybody an opening to share. By the way, not every fight has to be a big deal. When somebody did something that rubbed you the wrong way, it is possible in a healthy scenario for you to tell them. And them to say, I'm sorry. And you both to just move on. It's like when you step on somebody's foot, right? They say, ouch, and you say, I'm so sorry. I didn't see you there. And that's that. You know, I wonder if when we feel the impulse to fight with someone or we feel that a fight is needed, does that always mean that they did something wrong?

19:44I can say from my experience as a facilitator, not necessarily. I introduced this term, a meter check. And so a meter check is to actually go in and check to see if there's still actually electricity in the lamp. And so if somebody has done something to you and you're not totally sure if I need to go and fight about it, like get a meter check, meaning ask someone else who you respect, who you love, not in a gossipy way to be like, hey, like this happened. What do you think? Yeah. I guess what I'm thinking is that I like the idea of creating a space where two people can think different things, be in the world differently, have different levels of sensitivity to something, and neither one of them is like a bad person.

20:29Absolutely. A wonderful book on this is called Stiblings Without Rivalry. And in the prologue of this book, the authors write something like, your job is not to make your children best friends. Your job is to help teach them how to build a bridge between the islands of their different identities. So that even after they leave your home, your house, they know at any point in their life, they always know like the path to each other. And that's to me, that's all relationships. And in some cases, I may alter you because of what I said, and you may think of something totally different. And in other cases, we may agree to disagree.

21:11And then we have to decide, can we still, you know, be in this friendship or be in this relationship. Like closeness is a spectrum. It's not either we're friends or we're not friends, right? A friend of mine has a mentor who always tells her, you can be in relationship with anyone at the right distance. And it's your job to figure out what the distance is for that person. So it's not saying everyone's your best friend or everyone's your enemy, right? It's also this is again, fortunately or unfortunately, these are skills that will help us in modern life. Priya, thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me.

21:43okay y 'all time for a recap takeaway one conflict not necessarily a bad thing Priya argues it's actually necessary if we want to be in close and authentic relationships when you have a moment of misalignment with someone think of it as a signal there's something here to talk about takeaway two healthy conflict can bring structure and clarity to your relationships takeaway three choose your battles before you really get into it with someone ask yourself questions like how much do I care about this person or this group? Can I continue to meaningfully engage without facing this? And do I think that by saying something, I could change the situation?

22:22At the same time, don't shy away from a disagreement just because you're afraid. Takeaway four, before a fight, think about what you and the group or you and another person actually need at this moment. You want to set the table ahead of time so the other person knows what to expect and you end up having the right conversation. And takeaway five, people have different levels of comfort with confrontation. Some of us are more direct. Some of us hold things in. One way to bridge the gap is to schedule time to fight. Also, remember, just because you're upset with someone or they're upset with you doesn't mean that one of you is a bad person or even that one of you did something wrong.

23:00Sometimes that's the case, but sometimes you're just two different people with different ways of being in the world. And you get to decide how close you want to be. That's our show. If Life Kit is a part of your weekly ritual, why not make it official on the NPR app? You'll hear about every episode the moment it's ready. Just turn on notifications and we'll handle the rest. See you there. Download the NPR app today. This episode of Life Kit was produced by Kayla Lattimore. Our digital editor is Malika Garib, and our visuals editor is CJ Ricalon. Megan Cain is our senior supervising editor, and Lauren Gonzalez is our executive producer.

23:35Our production team also includes Andy Tegel, Margaret Serino, and Sylvie Douglas. Engineering support comes from Peter Alina. I'm Marielle Cigarra. Thanks for listening.

23:55This message comes from Charles Schwab with their original podcast, Choiceology. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind people's decisions. Download the latest episode and subscribe at schwab.com slash podcast.

24:10Priya Parker:This message comes from Designer Shoe Warehouse. You know that feeling when you find shoes you love at a great price and want to tell everyone about it? Find something to brag about at Designer Shoe Warehouse. Like the latest styles from brands you love, the trends everyone's obsessing over, and shoes that make you feel like you. Head to a DSW store or dsw.com today for shoes that get you at prices that get your budget. DSW, let us surprise you. Big news stories don't always break on your schedule. But with the NPR app, news, culture, and podcasts are ready when you want them in your pocket. Download the NPR app today.