Brett Goldstein: No One Follows the Frog

0:00I mean, if you want to make a grown man cry, Kermit Singing Rainbow Connection is kind of it. don't you think?

0:19Hey, everybody. Rob Lowe here. I'm super excited because my guest today is one of those people that I just sit back and marvel at their talent and their ability and the amount of great things that they have their hand in. Brett Goldstein is here today. He's here because his new movie, All of You, is streaming globally on Apple TV Plus right now. But, you know, Ted Lasso, shrinking, his stand-up, his podcast, movies to be buried with. This guy is crushing the game. My guess is he's going to be super smart and super funny, but he could disappoint me as well. I've had a life of disappointment sometimes.

1:07Let's see which he ends up being.

1:17Hey. Hey. Hi, Roblo. What's going on? How are you? I have no complaints. How about you? I'm pretty good. It's nice to meet you. Yeah. Whoa, my lights are falling over. I'm super excited. I'm a huge fan, my friend. Huge. Shut up. That can't be true. I'm a huge fan of yours. You know, like, Wayne's World was such a big fucking film for me. I've loved you since then. Wayne's World? You're a Wayne's World guy? Yeah. Come on. Of course. Wayne's World changed all our lives. Well, come on now. That I don't believe. Wayne's World changed all of our lives, and you were like the coolest bad guy. And I had, listen, I had a very good time.

2:05Yeah. I did. You're very, very good in it. It's a real, it's a real like fine line. You're walking in that film and you walk it beautifully. It's a great movie. You're excellent in it. Oh, well, this is great. Cause I mean, I'm such a fan of yours and it's. Shut up. No, I mean, you have your finger in every pie. You, I mean, really, I was going over, wait, how can he do all of this stuff? I mean, you're in Ted Lasso is at writer's room. Is that happening now? Ted Lasso is filming right now. We're in production. Okay, that makes sense. You're filming, but you are in it. You've got... How many fucking shows do you have?

2:49Let's just start there. How many shows? How many fucking shows? Well, there's Ted Lasso and they're shrinking currently. That's it. Just two. all of you you got that coming out and now I have this film all of you just that and my stand up and your podcast that's it just that just the podcast the movie and the TV shows that's it that's all you're doing that's nothing you know ah dude I don't know that's I mean you seem like someone who doesn't idle well i don't i don't yeah do you suffer from the same affliction clearly this is why yeah i can't i can't bear the uh the quiet i'm i'm terrified of the downtime you know i had one when we made this film uh that we did we had it was such an intense shoot it was like 23 days and we had one day off in the middle of it and that one day off i had a complete nervous breakdown i remember us calling each other like what is it what did we meant to do today what's what did people do like it was awful i is it that we just we just don't want to get to know ourselves it might be that right well why did i spend all this money on therapy then it's gotten me nothing other than busier what is the point of therapy i guess it's uh to why is the point i don't know i mean i do it a lot same and yeah do you ever do group therapy No, I've never done group therapy.

4:28So, I mean, you wrote shrinking. So that's... Yes. Is he... Well, kind of... He's not Jungian. He's not Freudian, right? It's kind of... No, it's behavioral... Behavioral... What's it called? CBT. Right. And talk therapy, yeah. Right. But he uses a bit of... You know, the Harrison Ford character uses a bit of everything because he's, you know, very wise. He's... But how long have you been doing therapy? Uh, I've been doing therapy since I got sober. So that I got sober 35 years ago. So I've, I've cured, you're cured. You've probably completed therapy by then. You would think, I mean, it's like, I get why, why you're, I totally get why as an alcoholic or addict, you're never, you're never cured.

5:18They say, you know, for every day that you're in recovery, your disease is in the hallway doing pushups. do you still do you still honestly 35 years sober do you feel that do you feel the addiction in the corridor um I've like anything it's like the note behind the note like that's the studio note which is not true it's not useful yeah but the note behind the note is true which is if I were to go and have a drink which I have no compunction. It's not breathing down my name, nothing. I know that within a very short period of time, I would be at it harder than I ever was. Yeah. Is that partly because you'd be like, well, I've ruined it now, so I may as well ruin everything, burn the whole thing down.

6:15Yeah. That's also part of it. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. I mean, but then when you go to the therapy, piece. Yeah. And you go, why? I feel because my, I had a stepfather who was a Jungian analyst. Okay. That's all dreams, right? That's a lot of dreams. Dreams in the shadow and the unconscious and all that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Which is even more sort of impractical. Impractical. It's even more impractical, I noticed. Even more. And I'm saying this as an advocate of therapy. In fact, we have sponsors on the show where you can go online and get some help. And now you have AI. Yes. I mean, I'm not sure about it.

7:09I'm not sure either. It's like, here's where I'm torn. There are people in parts of the world who have no access, zero, to anything remotely close to therapy. and for them it could be it should be a game changer on the other side of it it's like who's running the ship yes who's in charge that's my favorite line from Apocalypse who's in charge here and it goes ain't you I feel that scene so much what um do you do you think having become sober, part of your, did you replace addiction with work, with exercise, with fitness? Yeah, it rotates. Some days it's ice cream. Okay. Some days it's ice cream.

8:06Some days it's the Peloton. Right. It's fitness. Some days it's cigars. Some days it's, uh, like super like crazy fasting health, water, hydration. I get in my mind, I'm going to fucking, you know, get a, be like a ripped triathlete. Um, it's, it's, it's active. It's a lot of activities like, like 18 holes of golf, uh, a set of tennis, uh, a sauna session, cigars by the fire pit. Is it that sort of peace is boring? Is it that you need the... Boring is the... Can I tell you something? Yeah. There are two things that literally keep me up at night and feel like the... And look, I'm being facetious.

9:08I don't want the universe to give me something worse than these things. I know, obviously, they're out there. that's my disclaimer I'm not tempting fate that said the two things that drive like give me the are waiting in lines and boredom yeah boredom is the word I will do anything to avoid both those things yeah this is why a dinner party is my biggest fear because but you're listen you live in the dinner party capital you're you're a a Brit You guys crush the dinner party. I mean, I wouldn't know. You're scared of dinner parties in your country? You should come over here. Because we've never put a premium.

9:58And I'm not one of those people that, as you would say, slags off. Thank you. Yes. America. But we don't do, it's not in the culture. Like, it's really valued over there. I mean, when I've come to live there, I've done a bunch of work there and I've spent years living in the UK in different places. Like, it's a valued thing. Like, to sit next to someone at a dinner party and be a good guest, a good – that's not the right word. There's an actual word for it. Companion, isn't it, either? But, like, that's a thing there. We don't have that here. I didn't know that. But well, either way, I avoid it like the plague in either place.

10:43So you're not you. The fear of being trapped at a table with I mean, it might be great. But if you're with the wrong people and you're with boring people and it's like, how many, how many? How long is this? And you have sat. You can't move. I don't mind like a cocktail party. It's like we can move. There's always I need to know where the exit is. Dinner party. I'm like, fuck, we're in this for the long haul. Yeah. I mean, do you ever go in and rearrange the place settings? I've done that at a wedding once. I saw the table and I was like, absolutely not. Like, this is not on my watch. Yeah. It's like, why are you punishing me?

11:23What did I do to you? I thought we were friends. Tell me why your media profiles say you're a swimmer. Are you a swimmer? Well, I mean, it's half a joke with my podcast intro. I will list a different job every day at the end of all the other jobs. But I do also swim. I'm also a swimmer. Sure, why not? Okay, okay. I knew there must have been some kind of, there was more to it than that. And you're obviously a huge Muppet fan, Sesame Street guy. Yes. You done Sesame Street? How about this? I remember, you know, you have childhood memories that you go, I wonder how, I think my, one of my earliest childhood memories is we used to get a pamphlet that the teacher would read in class.

12:12And I remember her reading in class about a new show that was coming out next week called Sesame Street. Oh, wow. You were there at the beginning. I remember it. And, and, and of course I watched it from the very, very, very beginning. Wow. And, And then years later, I visited the set of the Muppet movie. The OG, you know, Rainbow Connection. The Magic Store. Oh, my God. Because I was friendly with a guy who was one of the Muppets. His name was Richard Hunt, and he did Scooter. And he did, I think, Beaker, I want to say. Yeah. But I got to see Frank Oz. work and gym. And then I went to the Tonight Show when Kermit hosted.

13:12Wow. Kermit hosted the Tonight Show. He did a monologue. How did he do? He killed it. That frog killed it. Yeah. He's good. Kermit's good. At the end of the day, he's good. At the end of the day, I mean, if you want to make a grown man cry, I think Rainbow... And I do. So Kermit singing Rainbow Connection is kind of it, don't you think? I think it's going to kill you every time, yeah.

13:54I was represented for years by a very, very well-known larger-than-life manager who managed Jim Henson. among, and Lorne Michaels and all the SNL people and named Bernie Brillstein also produced The Sopranos. He was a legend. And when he passed away, there was a big, Lorne Michaels, who is arguably the greatest television producer, maybe producer of all time, produced the service. And it was a big fight about who was going to eulogize who and who was going to talk and what level. and the people that were eulogizing were Gary Shandling, I think Jennifer Aniston, Lorne,

14:41and Kermit the Frog singing Rainbow Connection. I have to interrupt. And John Lovitz. And John was like, I want to go last. And Lorne said the greatest line, John, no one follows the frog. so true have you ever have you ever watched the jim henson memorial service oh it's fucking unbelievable big bird sings and then when they all sing if just one person believes in you jesus forget it forget it forget it forget it um have we started by the way this is what it is this is okay and we started it no i mean this is why i started doing this the the podcast because i I wanted a non-traditional, like if people were, if we were at a dinner party, which we would both be hating, but be happy that you and I were sitting next to each other.

15:37Yeah, I'd be delighted. And then somebody happens to be eavesdropping. That's what this is. Okay. At this point, I'd go like, I think they're listening to it. I know. I think there are a lot of people who have downloaded this conversation. We should go. I'd get a bit self-conscious like we should really watch this dinner party we deliberately moved our table so that we could sit near each other now tell me about so the Ted Lasso yes see now you've got me freaked out and I'm going back to interview mode oh no I'm so sorry I was trying to keep it light and now I'm back to tell me about your character I will never I promise you, you'll never hear me.

16:26How about that? I was just talking to somebody else about how... The fucking... When you're doing press... So you play a real wing dinger in that. Tell me about your character. I'm like, fucking what? That's... You have me. I'm here. Yeah. And that's what you want me to talk to you about? The wing dinger? Yeah. Like, what the fuck? it's very thrilling I'm doing the press right now for our film and it is genuinely thrilling when someone asks you something interesting or like where you go oh wow that's a real you've already thought about this wow that's cool rather than tell us what it's about tell us what it's about and you go yeah I just don't understand it and it's only gotten worse and worse and worse that people do it I mean not that I'm not interested in your character I am I mean I mean particularly on the Ted Lasso there's the notion that you self-taped, apparently, yourself.

17:25You advocated for yourself, which I love. I did. And in hindsight, when I look back at it, I had never done that before. It wasn't like something I always did. It wasn't like, yeah, I always... It was a strangely, like, I guess, brave thing to do, or slightly risky. The risk was, because I was one of the writers, the risk was, this tape is so bad that they don't ask me to come back for season two because none of them could look me in the eye again. That was the risk. I could have lost my job, you know. Right. But I did feel, it really did feel like a calling, that part. It hasn't happened before where I was like, I think I'm meant to do this one.

18:10Did you have a hand in writing that part? Yeah, I mean, I was part of it. There was the pilot script and then we had the writer's room and I was part of the team of writers. But yeah, I mean, I had a part of it as much as I had a part in all of the characters. It's just as it was going on, I just felt, I think I really get this guy. And then you end up winning the Emmy for it. How was that? How was your Emmy experience? Well, the first one was so... Like, we had been in lockdown making Ted Lasso and no one, we didn't, we really had the experience of overnight our lives changed because we were all underground.

18:54None of us were recognizable. And then we came out from underground and suddenly everyone recognized us. And particularly when you're out with Hannah Waddingham, me and Hannah Waddingham look like cartoon characters in the street. We look like Sesame Street characters. Yeah, right, right. She's a giant. I got this face. We look, we're easy to spot. And suddenly it was like, all these people are like, fuck what what happened when we were underground and that first emmys in particular was so when i look back and i go god we were so pure because we weren't at all jaded we had no idea how any of this worked we didn't know yeah there's nothing cynical about us at that at those emmys we were purely like you know look there's that person there's that person we were so excited and and genuinely genuinely i think i speak for hannah here i don't think either of us thought we'd win like I genuinely didn't think I'd win so it was just oh my god I'm here with all these people in Hollywood and uh and then when they said my name I didn't hear it and everyone stood up around me and I and then I saw it like on the wall and it was it was really I mean I'd love to tell you that it doesn't matter and it's all silly but it was really nice yeah the truth was it was really nice and it felt very uncynical in that moment in a way that i think now i have a more of a understanding of the business and i and i feel very grateful for being able to do stuff but i see the things that have you know the machinations of things much more than i used to yes yes yes but that first Emmys was pure like we were really just sweet children in this place and it was very very it was very cool it was really really fun I remember watching that and being so happy that you guys were being rewarded that show I mean it's that thing of I think with all good movies or TVs that things that break out on the level with which that Ted Lasso did, it requires the right timing.

21:12And yeah, completely. You know, I mean, I, I just, I think it's true even on the West wing. It was, there was a moment where we'd just gone through the Clinton impeachment scandal, but it, It was over. And if West Wing had come out during that, I think it would have been confusing on some emotional level. So you just have to, half of it is timing, and you guys hit it. You crushed it. Yeah, but you can't, I always think the kind of lesson from Ted Lasso and its success, which I don't think anyone can take, execs can't take it, and studios can't understand it, is that Ted Lasso was genuinely a word of mouth hit.

21:58It wasn't, it was Apple TV had just started. It wasn't, my parents didn't even know how to get it. You know what I mean? So I was like, I don't think anyone's going to watch this show. We're not sure how, if people are. And when it came out, I think it had a small following and the reviews were good, but it was like small. And then it genuinely grew word of mouth and became this thing that people championed and people loved. and you can't replicate that and it and it was timing and it was magical and it was what people needed at that moment i guess and you know we made it with love we did the best we could but like i've made other stuff with love that didn't hit you know i mean like it is sure it is um it is you can't what's the word um just game it you can't go okay so then we need to make another show about a coach no that won't work this this worked because there wasn't that it always needs to be something new and then they always try and replicate the same thing yeah oh my god i mean sitting talking about the jaded cynicism the mac and the magnetizations and this backfill smoke-filled rooms of it all everybody was like it well it's sort of ted lasso in that or every pitch it's like ted lasso right yeah it's like it's like ted it's like fucking unbelievable but it it's funny to remember the times when we were just bright-eyed know nothing first first time me when did you you've been a you you've done a lot did you in the beginning were you like, oh yes, oh my God, yes.

23:42How long until you were jaded? Oh my God. I, I, I think, I think I pretty, I mean, they're always, I'm always shocked at my level of naivete and how long it held, right? But, but I, but I think by the time I was, certainly by the time I was in my early 20s, certainly. Right. Easily. Okay. I mean, I was like, oh, I see how this works. And it's fine. It's all good, but definitely the freshness of it is like, what? So your partner, Mr. Jason Segel, who I adore. Yes. Love him. We did a movie. Talk about timing and things. we did a movie called sex tape and with yes with uh and that did it just didn't no nobody thought through the fact that people didn't like like the just the phrase sex tape was going to be a barrier to entry to the very to the very people it was it was slightly too ahead of its time that film or slightly behind its time i know what you mean yeah it's a it's a really fun movie but yeah that was it ahead of its time?

25:04I think it was ahead of its time. Or was it late? Yeah. I don't know, but you're right. It could be, there's a world where that came out and the people were like, woo, like the titillation of it all would have worked for it. Yeah. And of course the irony was, it was the most sort of boring suburban couple. It had nothing to do with a sex tape, really. Yeah. It was the MacGuffin. Yeah. But I loved working with him. He's so wonderful. I have zero... I've worked with him now three years, four years. I don't have a single... I haven't had a single unpleasant interaction ever. He's so smart. And you share the obsession with Muppets.

25:53Yeah. That's how we... When Bill Lawrence and I met with Jason Segel for shrinking on a Zoom, I had his Muppet movie posted behind me and I forgot because that was just there in my office and it looked, and at some point I had to go, Jason, I haven't put this up just now. This was always here. This wasn't a move. This was legit. I love this story he told me. I'm sure you'd know it where, I forget, oh, it was coming after How I Met Your Mother and everybody was eager to figure out what he wanted to do. And he was like, what would you like to do? He's like, I'd like to do something with the Muppets.

26:27I just love that. I mean, that kind of tells you everything you need to know. I think so. And he sort of very seriously takes Kermit as like a performance mentor. Like as in, he looks at Kermit and goes, what Kermit is doing is very hard to do. It's similar to what Tom Hanks does. It's that he's essentially a likable, decent guy. who is holding the center. And I think he got that from Kermit. That's what he does. And of course, you have the legend, the man with the... The legend. I have a guy that works with me on all my projects who is in the costume department. And he worked on the last Indiana Jones.

27:18Oh, wow. I love that film. And he texted me one day and he said, Today I handed Harrison the whip. That's cool. That's cool. You can't be jaded when stuff like that happens. I wouldn't. See, that's the thing about being jaded. I would not be jaded with that at all. I mean, I'm not jaded. I mean, you work with him all the time, but like whenever I've had any interaction with him, I'm like, dude, that's Harrison Ford. Yeah, it doesn't go away. It doesn't go away. It doesn't go away. again four years in with him he's a he's such a good actor and he's so funny in the show and he's so vulnerable and i really think at first i was always amazed that he wanted to do it but the longer we've gone i'm like yeah we he gets to be funny in a way he hasn't he's very funny and he hasn't got to show that off enough and he also gets to be vulnerable in a way we haven't seen and what is lovely about him is he will always pretty much every scene once it's complete he will come over to the monitors to the writers and say thank you for the writing is so brilliant you know he's so generous in that way and despite all of that and despite him being funny and casual with me i am the entire time going fucking hell you must have some moments that you remember where you go, you're reminded?

28:49Honestly, every moment. I never, I'm never fully like, hey, it's just a guy. We're just two guys. We're just two guys at work. I'm always like, it's me and Harrison Ford, you know, from Harrison Ford. It's Harrison Ford from Harrison Ford. Yeah.

29:23Do you still love doing your podcast? That's a good question. I do. I don't like the admin of it and the relentlessness of it because I'm busy. You're a busy man. Busy man. I've got all these dinner parties to get to. How about have you run out of movies to be buried with? though i mean like is there's that well it's not mine it's always the guests the things that i love about it and i'm sure you feel the same and why i because i was tempted if there was a time where i was going to stop doing it but i was like there is no other sadly there's no other way in in our current life that you can have a conversation with someone for an hour face to face and you can get deep and you can be this is what i'm saying like it's it's a it is actually a privilege to do the thing.

30:13That's what I'm saying. And like I said, I love when guests on Literally go, have we started yet? When are we going to do it? Because there's no, I mean, I guess when I was a kid, there was like Dick Cavett and I'm sure there were more long form. I've seen clips. Right? Or even in print, there was always like the Playboy interview was really long. And I actually did read the interviews in Playboy sometimes. I actually. Me too. Um, but the notion of talking particularly about movies, it also opens up and says so much about people, what they like and what they, you know, one to be buried with, literally.

30:54Yeah. Well, that's an impossible task. I mean, Robert Redford passed away yesterday. Mm-hmm. And I was— Did you know him? I met him only once. We had many missed opportunities. And finally, we were both at the Golden Globes. This is about being jaded. It was the Golden Globes. And, you know, if you get lucky enough, you end up there a bunch of times over your life. And you start going, I just am thinking about what kind of hamburger I'm going to get on the way home. Right? Yeah. Particularly after you lose, which I do. I'm very good at losing Golden Globes. Right. That's nice. And Emmys. That's cool.

31:34I'm very, I know how to lose with dignity and grace. That's a fucking skill. It is, man. It's not nothing. And anyway, he was there and I, he was on the middle of a press line. And I just put my, I waited until he was done. I put my hand on his shoulder and I introduced myself. I'm not quite sure he even knew who I was necessarily. and I just was and I did it because I knew that yesterday would come there'd be a day where he would not be here anymore and I was able to really just say how much, I said I just want to tell you how much you mean to me and how much you've meant to me and I just am so glad that I was able to tell him that's nice and that was it we walked away and it was great but I had that But my point is, I can't even name one Robert Redford movie that I would be buried with because there are like four of them, at least.

32:36I love Robert Redford as a director. And there is a film that he directed that I think is top 10 all time films that is not talked about. It's Quiz Show. Yes. Have you ever seen Quiz Show? I auditioned for it. Did you? For which part? It would have been the part that... Um, I, I, I, what I, and I don't, obviously I don't remember it well, but what I do remember it was, it was one of the first times that you had to go on tape. It was that, it was at that time in the industry where it was, it was like, I remember as a whole thing, people did not do it. We didn't have cell phones. We didn't have that.

33:11You had to have a big video camera and do like, it was a real thing. Like, and, and, and, and Redford really only wanted to see, didn't want to meet people. But that's a great show. That's a great... Paul Atanasio wrote it, if I'm not mistaken. Is that right? It's an amazing film. And it's really... I don't know why it isn't talked about more because it's about everything we're dealing with now as well. Like, it's such a kind of profound film because it's about this quiz show that was rigged and it had fooled America and it was, like, devastating and it ruined this family it ruined everyone's life.

33:50And then at the end, one of the TV guys is like, who cares? It's just TV. Like, why does any of this matter? And it's so like, yeah, I guess. I don't know. It's so like, because we care. That's why it matters. Because we buy into a thing. Otherwise, what are we doing? It's so Redford. If we don't believe. It's so Redford. I mean, when you think about that theme, it's the last line of the candidate. Now what? Do you know what I mean? Like, you want to talk about cynicism and being jaded. all condor yeah so many of them deal all the president's men yeah like cynicism is just a huge theme in almost all his work you know and then of course he has his other lane which is just supernova movie star Like, The Sting, for example, which I saw again recently, is maybe the best script ever written.

34:57I mean, the plotting is insane. The charisma is insane. You're hanging on it. I mean, Robert Shaw's Dyer Lanigan, like, and Newman's, but they're amazing. You just don't make a movie like that. The thing about The Sting that's funny to watch, if you watch it again, is it looks horrible. oh my god does it look bad it's funny literally looks like a it looks like how i met your mother it's flat bright yeah it's obvious a studio audience there's there everything is obviously a set right and everything's obviously the back lot like obviously the back lot okay so if i i highly recommend everybody watch the sting again in honor of redford because it's still one of the great movies of all time but boy it is bad the way it looks tell me this what when you did was west wing the longest tv show you did yes how many years did you do on that four four seasons oh okay but like 22 episodes right 22 oh yeah that's in the days when you did 20 you know the other i I always like to remind people that in the first year of the West Wing, Aaron Sorkin was writing 22 episodes of Sports Night and 22 episodes of the West Wing in the same season.