Filmmaker Gavin O’Connor: Theatre Rat

31:39Jesus. Yeah. And then, and what happened was there was just this, I mean, you know, there's like a revolving door of executives and then musical chairs. and it was so... Anyway, we finally got them to pay Bill Dubuque, the writer, to do one draft. No polish, no rewrite, one draft. God, yes. And he wrote the draft and then he ended up doing 14 drafts before we turned it in because we had to get it right. So he did four and that's I remember Bill saying to me one day, he said, Gavin, I'm in the business of writing movies, not scripts, so I'll do as many drafts as you need. Which is Bill. And then we thought we had it going, but then Ben started his own studio, Artist Equity, he and Matt.

32:42Yep. yep uh um and uh and he said he he can't i guess the deal that he has with his financiers is everything has to run through his studio everything he directs in action has to be through his studio because that was the problem previously with other iterations of that of of that thing is you'd get these stars and everybody be excited about it but then they would go and do the hits for somebody else. Exactly. Now, Matt, I think it's 50%. I think he's got to do 50 % and 50 % he can do outside of it. Ben is. So he's like, so I don't know that Warner Brothers was willing to do a co-fi, co-production.

33:21I think there was some resistance there. Then there was COVID and then there was a strike. You know, all this stuff happened. So finally, when we came out of the other side of all the craziness, Warner Brothers graciously let us leave. and um wow that's amazing that does not happen well there's some subtext to it i there there's some financial subtext to it okay you can imagine yeah it wasn't okay i got you it wasn't it wasn't for free yes i understand now i understand now no you know there's gangster corporate capitalism at his finest. Yeah. But cool, we got out of there. So we ended up going to Amazon MGM because a lot of people that used to be at Warner Brothers are now over there.

34:13And they wanted it, so we didn't go anywhere else. And then, but the deal we had with Amazon MGM was a negative pickup. So Ben's company financed it, and then we just gave it to them. So it was like making a$1 million independent movie, to be totally honest. It was so liberating to not have. I mean, I could honestly say excluding, well, even Miracle. I mean, there's not a movie I've made that isn't my movie. I've had some fights over it, battles, but twice. But you still have to rope a dope at times, you know, to protect your movie from people that at times have no idea what the fuck they're doing or talking about.

35:00Right. But this one was, once we got through the business side of it, it was then like, you know, you gotta just go, you don't have to run casting by anybody. Whatever you do with the script, it's like just, I'll see on set. And that's what it was. So I think the movie is definitely reflective of that. This sort of... The freedom. Yeah, this independent spirit kind of approach to storytelling. And it's very much a departure from the first film. I learned a lot of the first one and I went in a different direction tonally and I wanted it to be more of a buddy picture. It's very fun. It's very funny.

35:40And I also very intentionally, I wanted to make, I think just, so Ben and I made a movie after, we made a movie together called The Way Back, which came out on a Friday. And theaters close on a Monday because of COVID. So it was dead in the water. And then we've all watched our industry sort of tread water, trying to figure itself out and get people back into the theaters. And it's been tough. So I also very intentionally wanted to make just a big, fun, entertaining. My version of a popcorn movie is really what I was trying to do. very intentionally. And I honestly didn't know that I pulled it off until I put it up in front of an audience at the first test screening.

36:31And it played like gangbusters that scored through the roof. And that's what everyone was like, okay, I think we got something here.

36:52it's kind of move will you always pick as your leading men now that i know that paul newman's your favorite actor it all kind of make it all kind of makes sense to me because i don't know how to, I don't, maybe you can help quantify it. There's a certain type of actor. Ben's one. Kurt Russell is on fucking Mount Rushmore. The best. I don't know what, what is, they're very male. They, I don't know how you quantify that Newman, Russell, it's like, is it just plain old simple movie star? Is it just that simple? Well, you know, it's, each role is different with Kurt on Miracle, the studio, so I had only made a small independent film called Tumbleweeds, which I financed.

37:38I sold everything I owned. I put the rest on credit cards and I had enough money just to shoot the film. I had seen this woman named Janet McTeer, a British stage actress. I saw her on stage doing A Doll's House, the Ibsen play. And I mean, it was like she landed from another planet on that fucking stage. It was unbelievable. I've seen her. have you seen her yeah but that was the first time in the states she'd never been in america before and i got her the script and we she wanted to do with me and you know i didn't have to it was my own i i was financing it myself so i didn't have to answer to anybody because people were like who the fuck is janine mcteer she's not going to help you in my mind i'm thinking this woman's an animal like i know she's so great for the role that you know and i i didn't really know what i was doing but i figured i but like you said with writers like i knew what i wanted it to be technically I wasn't you know I hadn't gotten there yet it was my first film but in any event after that I had written another script with a buddy of mine and then 9-11 happened and it dealt with my dad was a New York City police officer so it dealt with corruption in the police department institutional corruption and my agent and lawyer were like what do you have what else do you have and I said it's my script that's all I have so I learned the lesson of you gotta you got to be moving more than one project forward because we don't have a lot of control at times right so when miracle i got sent the script to miracle i didn't really respond and i i remember we're i'm sure right around the same age but i remember as a kid watching that game i was i was literally this close to the screen when it was over people in my neighborhood pots and pans it It was so ingrained in my head, the emotion of that night.

39:28So that's what it had in me. I'm like, I just want to excavate that. And I also want to rewrite the script. So I got the job. And then I said, I'm going to cast only hockey players. They wanted all young actors. They wanted all the young actors. and I was like, I said, it's going to be easier for me to teach kids who can really skate how to not act and just be honest and truthful than teach these other kids. How are they going to be these actors to learn how to skate like that? I don't want these body doubles. I've been there. It's hard. You know, yeah, you know. So I got past that hurdle and then they wanted Michael Douglas to play Herb and Michael kind of looked like Herb and I was like, oh, that could be interesting, and I went to meet Michael, and he was lovely and a gentleman, and we had a long meeting, and I was really, I had a very specific idea of how I wanted to shoot it, and I said to him, look, we have, I think at that point, there was like five months before we started shooting, six months, and I said, you know, I'm going to, he never skated.

40:38He said he was a skier. I said, I'm going to need you to skate every day, and until we can get you to a level of, you know, I'm not expecting you to be Herb because Herb was in the 1960 on the 1960 team. But I said, I need you to be really comfortable on the ice and be a really good ice skater. And I couldn't get a fucking straight answer out of him, whether he would commit to it or not. He would say yes. And then he would say, but he had this knee thing and he had a really good double. And I'm like, yeah, I'm not using double that. Like there's gotta be. And I just didn't, it was hard. Cause I never made a studio movie as my, I made a little independent film.

41:13So when I got out of there, they, they, They wanted, I literally like five minutes out the door of my car, the studio's calling me saying, we're going to pull the trigger on him. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not comfortable. I don't believe, I don't think so. And I had to go back the next day to meet him again. I still, I still kept getting the run around kind of answer and I just didn't trust it. And I, and so I asked them, I said, can I please meet with Kurt Russell? Because I said, Kurt, I knew Kurt played sports. He's been in locker rooms. He's been in locker rooms. well and i knew your son a hockey player yet at this point kurt was up in vancouver his son was a hockey player and they he and goldie moved to vancouver yeah and um so they let me go meet with him and i flew to vancouver and guess who picks me guess who's waiting for me when i get off the plane kurt russell pick me up fuck yeah fuck yeah and you know but this is the truth when i get in his car he's taking me to the house i get in the car he looks at me the first thing he goes what do you think of the script and it's that flat like and i don't i didn't get the lying gene i'm just incapable of lying and i said it sucks he goes we're gonna be good amazing and then i met with him and i told him you know how i'm what i'm because what the script had was it had all the signposts of what we know.

42:39But all the connective tissue, all the connective tissue is just this like, it's like, can we just fucking, like, let's make this a real movie now. So it's one of those scripts where you go, where, again, they come across my desk all the time, where it's so clear. It's like a house. You go, the bones are so sick. But who the fuck puts a, you know, a sunken living room? Jesus Christ. Okay, this has to, so it's that. It's really that. It's exactly. it it's exactly it so and a real autopsy on just you know character character character and then and then trying to discover things we don't know and here's the so here's lastly I will say this I as I as I climbed inside the story Herb spent three months putting the team together and which was in the script and I'm like fucking three months I don't know watch I'm like I'm gonna have him pick the team in a day like fuck this like he's but i go only for because i had heard that he knew his team i so i called up herb i said can i ask you a question herb i said i heard that you knew your team going in he goes oh yeah i had the 20 names written down day one i said why why did you wait three months to come to the to go through the song and dance and all the gymnastics to get to the same place.

44:00So Gavin, it was my first time as an Olympic coach. I was dealing with the AAU and the IOC and all these committees and those sort of politics. He goes, I just had to go. I basically had to go through the political bullshit to get to the same place. And I said, all right, well, let me, I said, like, I'm kind of new to this, but I said, in my world, it's the spirit of the truth. as long as it's the spirit of the truth like if you told me you would never have done that but I said you knew so I said in the movie I want to have you choose a team in a day because now you're pissing everyone off you're ruffling feathers I said it's a much more interesting character if we start that way and he goes I love it I would have done that yes we're re-mythologized and he was like he was so into it so that's what I did and I started then I started asking questions to all the players and then it became Rashomon because everyone had a different perspective of the same thing and that was liberating because i'm like okay now i'm going to take the best version and kind of massage it to make it obviously i'm not changing the scores the scores are what they are what but little things like that happened what about the um the famous speech kurt's great speech is that did how does that come to be does kurt have a hand in it is that like how because that's great there's always going to be that moment where the coach has the speech.

45:21Yeah, I think that was there. That was in there. I think that was all, I'm trying to remember, I think that was actually his real, a lot of it was his real speech. I think a lot of it was his real speech. Was there a recording of it? How did people know? I don't know. You know, that's a great question. I don't remember. I probably knew it then. I honestly, I didn't write, I didn't write, that was there. So, I mean, I kept things that were, that worked. Yes. You know, like you said, the pieces of the house that worked, I, you know, I protected, but everything in between was reimagined. It's such a great movie.

45:54And Kurt is one of my favorites. Kurt was, you know, my first, he could, you know, the wrong movie star could have made my life miserable. He was, he was so supportive. He was amazing. In Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, it's, I love watching, like I said, I love watching actors when they get the red meat thrown to them and they just fucking devour it like a lion, right? But I also love an actor who comes in amongst other huge hitters and has two scenes and absolutely murders. And Kurt as the stuntman, when Leo's trying to sell him Brad Pitt, and it's clear Kurt doesn't want to do it, but he's placating and placating and placating.

46:43And finally Kurt goes, man, I just don't like the vibe she brings to a set. the way he says it is we all know that guy. By the way, it's an era of Hollywood that isn't around anymore. Yeah. Yeah. It's going away. That sort of Western cowboy, right? Yeah, definitely. And like those, those folks aren't on cruise anymore. They're dying out. I know. It's a dying breed. Well, Kurt told me that he, he actually, when I was shooting a count too, he came out to set one day and we visited me, we had lunch and stuff like that. And he was telling me that regarding that character and that scene, Quentin would call Kurt all the time and ask him questions about old Hollywood and stuntmen because Kurt lived in that world, obviously, and knew it so well.

47:32So Kurt was very instrumental in infusing the script with a lot of specificity and details. And then he said he went over to, Quentin had him come over to read the script. And then when he was finished, he said, that's when he said, will you please play this part? He was like, of course, I'd do anything for you, man. So good. It's one of my, it's one of my favorite. That's my favorite. That's my favorite. That's my favorite film of Quentin's. And they're all great. But that one is Dad and Inglourious. Inglourious Passage. Brilliant. Apparently there's a sequel being made. Apparently. There's what?

48:07Do you know this? Do you know there's a sequel being made, apparently? To which one? To Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. that Quentin's doing? It's a Quentin script with Fincher directing. I... I never heard that. That's the rumor. Can you imagine? It's gonna be a very different movie. Can you imagine? I mean, I'm so down for that. Okay, okay, Kurt Russell and The Thing. How about that? How about The Thing? Yeah. Greatest ever. Greatest. Greatest. Are you a big 80s movie guy? yeah i mean for sure i mean that was what that was yeah we were all paying attention the 70s and 80s were the the golden age what are your what are your favorite movies from the 80s yeah the you know well i'm i'm a you know 70s is my is my decade but the 80s if i had to pick god if i had to pick a movie from the 80s i'd probably start with 1980 with the bull raging bull yeah um then i'd go to the the uncut version of uh once upon a time in america which i think is one of the greatest gangster films ever made you know there were all so many great uh teen comedy all those teen comedies which you were in some of them like there was some of those great you know saint emma's fire was great and and and um do you remember river's edge it wasn't a comedy remember that teen movie that was crazy I love that film.

49:36I just did a movie that a horror movie really, really good fucking freaky. That's coming out for Halloween with Crispin Glover. Oh, wow. Yeah. River's edge. Yeah. He's great. He's great in this road warrior. Great movie, right? That was one of the best. It was, you know, blood simple. I love thief. Michael Mann's first film. Fucking genius. So many good ones. So many. What are yours? 80s uh goodfellas 90 uh that was 90 oh fuck 1990 right right on the decade right on the decade well to be technical excuse me but i saw a rough cut okay then you it came out in night i did see a rough i did see a rough cut of goodfellas it was it was one of the most amazing experiences i've ever had and how did that happen so i was friendly with erwin winkler the producer.

50:32And we ran into each other walking down the Champs -Élysées. And what are you doing in Paris? And I was promoting a movie. And what are you doing in Paris? And he goes, oh, we should have dinner. I can't. I'm going to see a cut of my new movie with Marty. Oh my God, no fucking way. You want to come? And so we went and we watched and into my mind it was a a what was clearly the final cut without raw with you know no dissolves you know the magic remember these the magic marker going across the screen did that was it was it was it all was a tent tent music or did it have a score and all those songs it had everything and it had layla i came out that the layla body finding sequence oh my god blew my And by the way, that's become, because that was so seminal, that everybody has aped it.

51:28In every TV show, everybody apes that throwdown song set piece to some insane piece of visual, but it had never been done before. No, no. One of the greatest. That's the, of the 90s, that's the. That blew my mind. It blew my mind. It was like when I was a kid and I visited my aunt and uncle who were what they used to call rotoscopers, which were early animators. And they said they were working on this. They said this direct quote, a stupid space Western. And so I went to the warehouse where they were shooting it and it was Star Wars.

52:11And I saw early footage of a trailer. and they hadn't even, it was Luke and Layla swinging across the chasm of the Death Star and the rope, but they were swinging across a linoleum floor. They hadn't even put in the, and they had the lightsabers didn't have, and I, you know that thing of kids know, like kids know, like the adults thought it was stupid. Right. But, you know, 12 year old me, even without any of it in, I was like, it blew my mind, blew my mind. How old were you when you realized you wanted to be an actor? Were you always obsessed with cinema? Was that going to start with just your love of movies?

52:52It started with a theater. Didn't even start with movies. I went and saw a production of, there was really a healthy theater economy in Dayton in the early 70s. And so I would see summer stock coming through, great actors, you know, on tour, literally bus and truck versions of stuff. and I saw Oliver that had kids in it. And I had like a God shot moment that like, this is what I wanted to do. And like, people are like, okay, you crazy little punk, whatever. But like, that's what I, and like you said, ignorance is bliss. I didn't know that Dayton, Ohio wasn't exactly a factory for actors, but that's how it started.

53:37And then, yes, I was in love with movies and TV, obviously, afterwards. What's your favorite theater performance? Is there one that stands out? The one that just came to mind when you say it was Malkovich in Burn This. Saw it. Saw it. Right? I remember watching that play. There was a moment in the play where he turns and walks upstage and goes out a window and starts talking with his back to the audience. and I'm like he's a better actor than everyone else and he's not even looking at the fucking lawyer how did he do that that was like what year was that that was our mid 80s maybe mid mid 80s I want to say it was like 85 yeah 85 mid 80s because I was in college I remember I saw I was in school and I came back to see I think I was I think I was still in college when that came out oh my god that fucking piece I mean I used to love going, just watching actors that I knew that I was, that I loved and go to see them on the boards when you can't, you know, cut and go, let's see what's really going on here.

54:46Yeah. Listen, I, I love it. And I, I mean, I love, I love the theater. I love it. I love it. Love it. And I feel very, um, I feel like some of my favorite movies are like Tom Cruise, who I think is one of the greatest actors in the world. I would love to see Tom on, on stage. I mean, all the people that I love as an actor, I just really wish that I could see them because it's another thing. It's like, you know what it's like? It's like if you're a designated hitter, you're not really playing baseball. It's like you are playing baseball. Yeah. You go to the Hall of Fame. It's great. But I'd like to see you throw and run.

55:25I'd like to see you field a ground ball. uh the other one i saw um i've seen a lot of great ones but the other one um was natasha richardson in the very first original redo uh of uh cabaret that was next level yeah i didn't i've seen that show many times i didn't see natasha do it she she and then the other thing was um um what's the Mike Nichols movie um that was Julia Roberts yeah and Natalie Portman and uh yeah that that on Broadway was bananas did did you see did you happen to see um Mark Rylance in Jerusalem no I love Mark Rylance the holy shit so I went uh Noah Emmerich and I am in New York I think I may have been, are we doing Americans?

56:26I can't remember, but I was in New York and Noah and I go to see Jerusalem. And at intermission, we go out. I'm like, are we catching this guy like the greatest night of his life? Because what's happening on that stage is beyond anything I have ever witnessed in my life by an actor on the plank. and he's like I'm right there with you dude we go back for the second act we leave the theater just on air going we just never I never honestly had ever it was almost unfair to the other actors on stage because he was so much better than everyone else he was so lived in and he so inhabited this character in a way that was so deep and so specific that everything else sort of felt vague around him we literally go back the next night to watch him again.

57:21Because we're like, maybe he just, this was just the night. This is like, will you ever met him? It was at night on August 15th. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did it again. Did it again. I go back to LA where I live. He calls me up like a week later. He goes, I went a third time. No way. Just as good. Mark Rylance. The play starts with his head in a bucket of water. He literally starts to play. His feet are up here. He's doing a handstand with his head in a bucket of water. That's how he, and he comes out and he goes, and shakes all the water off. And it's electric. He's, but listen, he's, Mark Rylance is one of the great, great of great of greats.

58:11You ready for like, it's going to be surprising for you to hear this one? Yeah. I saw a version of the Elephant Man. in the West End, I want to say 11 years ago, it was Bradley Cooper. I heard. Right after he won the Academy Award. Dude. I heard. He was electric. Yeah. He's great. Bradley's great, man. He's a great actor. Right? Yeah. He's in the Newman category with the guys we love. Yeah. And directing like those guys, right? They're all good directing now. Have you started directing? I've been so damn, you know what it is. It's nine months out of your life. And I really haven't had the time.

58:55I did do a sort of new version of The Bad Seed about two years ago. Bad Seed is that famous, Bad Seed is, it was, by the way, it was a huge Broadway play, ran for two years back in the, I want to say the 50s. It was a sensation because it's a sweet little girl who you realize is a murderess. And then it became a very sort of cult camp movie. And so I found this actress, McKenna Grace, who's gone on to do a lot of great stuff. And I love it. I love when I get a chance to direct, but I don't get, it's not, I just don't really have the time to do it as much as I would like. But I, and I do think actors make really good directors for the most part.

59:43Oh yeah. I think they make, I think of any of the, you know, I've seen, you know, cinematographers obviously have done it and stuff like that, but I think, and writers of course, but I think actors, I think most, you look at these guys, they're all, you know, starting with Eastwood, right? well starting with Charlie Chaplin I guess you can go all the way back there but they have a very specific way of seeing stuff of storytelling and always coming from character which is most important. Listen I think you're you're one of the greats I got a couple of I got a couple of ideas I'm thinking about I'm gonna send to you because I I think I think this would be a great match and uh the next time you add another brother to Ben Affleck it better be me better not be John Hamm if it's fucking John Hamm I'm coming for you if it's fucking you know what I'm saying it's like we're gonna beef you and me so how do you you know you have a really interesting career I watch your game show by the way you know my wife hosts game shows oh I love your wife by the way will you please give her a hug she's the best she's the best she's the best the best I need to get her on a podcast so people can understand how awesome she is and how brilliant she is she's great she's the greatest she's great but uh so we're game show people here in the house so congratulations on yours we love your show it's really fun it's really fun and like how did that happen like you you're like you do everything dude you you know what it's it's a little bit like i said directing you get to use every club in your bag yeah it's like this doing the podcast allows me to fanboy over people i love like i'm doing with you today and be curious and learn and to tell stories in real time and to offer a point of view because I feel like after 40 years in the business, I have a point of view.

1:01:37So that's this. The game show is two things for me. One, I love trivia. Love it. Love it, love it, love it. I love game shows. I was on the$10 ,000 pyramid with Dick Clark when I was 15. No. Yes, I was. Are you serious? Yes, I was. And I won. I went to the pyramid and won every time. Come on. Yep. You can look it up on YouTube. I will look it up. I will look it up. I have the hair of Farrah Fawcett majors. All feathered back. Oh, it's really a lot. It's really a lot. And then the other part of it is I really am cognizant about, And people say, how do you, how, staying relevant and staying in the discussion is more important than it's ever been in our business.

1:02:30And the notion that I have 10 year olds every Wednesday watching the floor while they're doing their homework is an annuity. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great way of saying it. That's a great way of saying it. It's an annuity. And also like the notion of, I didn't know it would be as stimulating as it is. I look at it this way. It's like doing a one-man show, sort of stand-up, and being an air traffic controller. It's all those things at once. You've got to run the game. You've got to remember the stakes. You've got to remember the numbers. You've got to pace the show up. You've got to try to be funny.

1:03:16You've got to know when to let the stakes play out, when to talk, when not to talk. It's way more challenging and invigorating than I thought it would be. And that keeps me coming back. Yeah, you're juggling. Yeah, I watched it with my wife, man. It's a lot of ball juggling. How many shows you guys shoot a day? So I'm leaving in 10 days to go shoot seasons five and six. And we will shoot them all in 10 days. So I do between two to three shows a day. Okay. And we do 10 episodes. Two, four, six, eight, 10. Yeah. she was shooting sometimes six a day oh my god couldn't do that minimum five can't do it three on the three show days on the three show days I'm ready to blow my brains out yeah yeah it's unfair but you know it was she was it was a game show network so the budgets are a little different than your show so they were squeed man they were just I just did a I just saw the floor is the most lucrative show on television.

1:04:41No. Full stop. What's the analytics for that? How do they judge that based on ad revenue? Ratings, downloads, live performance on Hulu, budget. Right. Right. Yeah, it's like it's unbelievable. I never, ever expected it to be what it's become. Never. I knew it was good and it was going to be fun, but I had no idea it would become what it is. Did they, because you had done a game show before that, right? Didn't you have a game show? So did they come up with the idea and approach you to do it? They did. They came to me with this one. I love it. I'm developing other ones for other people to do because it's, look, we live in a world where that at the moment, that is what a lot of people find comfort and entertainment in.

1:05:38Yes, families, families. You know, when I was a kid, that's when we'd sit around and watch game shows as a family. It was great. I love, you know, I love game shows. What's that? Hollywood Squares as a kid. Hollywood Squares was great. It's great. You know what I loved when I was a kid? I used to love the gong show. Remember the gong show? Oh my God, that's right. Or Shark Barrage. When I look back at it, I go, oh yeah, I think he was on a lot of blow. because that was always the rumor. Remember the unknown comic? Oh, yeah. Remember the unknown comic? Yeah. Bag over his head. Match Game was great.

1:06:12I used to love Match Game. That was fun. Oh, Gene Rayburn. Match Game. Oh, my God. It was great. Family Feud. I used to love game shows. Love game shows. So fun. All right, buddy. I could talk to you for another hour. I really could. This is great. It's so fun. Mutual, man. Mutual, brother. Really nice to meet you. I'm telling you, man, when I was, We're probably right around the same age. When I was young, man, I would go to... I can remember... I just have memories of being a freshman in college. That's when I saw The Outsiders, which was the first time I saw you. And then the parallel of St.

1:06:46Elmo's Fire, which I graduated college in 86, which I think that was like... I was still in college when... Was that 86 or 85? It came out in 86. I was still in college when that came out. I remember seeing because I can remember the theaters I went to and I remember thinking even back then going oh so this is what it's going to be like when you're out of college we're still going to be just holding on for dear life but the other movie you did which I loved man back then it was all these was The Mamet Sexual Perversity in Chicago Oh About Last Night About Last Night with Demi Moore the beautiful love story beautiful performances I loved I thought that film was beautiful and then Blue Sheep Was it Belushi that was in it with you?

1:07:30Yeah, he's Murders in it. Murders. Yeah, and, you know, Elizabeth Perkins, right? Was that what it was? Killer. Killer. But you guys will grab it. It's a beautiful movie. I don't remember who directed that. Ed Zwick. Oh, well, there you go. There you go. Right? Yeah. There you go. But that was a really beautiful, really, you know, I just remember, like, it just felt very real and very lived in. The characters all felt, just felt honest and true. and it just felt real. And it was a real love story and it was really well done. But I've seen so many, you know, I just, as you were like, I remember as a kid watching the movie Class.

1:08:12Oh my God. Dude, Class. And I remember, there must have been a car, there was some kind of something with cars in the movie because I remember me and my friends left and we were flying down the road like we were in the movie, driving like maniacs. Was there a scene in there like that? Well, what it is, it was the very first Porsche convertible ever seen by human eyes. I had the very first Cabriolet for that movie. Yes. That was kind of cool. I love that. Was that Andrew? Was it Andrew McCarthy? Was that Andrew? Andrew McCarthy, Cliff Robertson. Yeah, she's with your mom. Jackie. Jackie Bissette.

1:08:47Yeah. Jacqueline Bissette. Yeah. Good old Andrew McCarthy for that one. Yeah. So fun. Anyway, so this was really cool, brother. It's really a pleasure to meet you. and I'm a fan of you as well. And hopefully I get to meet you, you know, in person on a screen. I would love it. Thank you, man. All right, mutual brother.

1:09:10Well, thank you guys for listening. I could have talked to Gavin for a long time. What a good bro. Super good director, super good dude. Hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. And don't forget more to come next week right here on Literally.

1:09:27You've been listening to Literally with Rob Lowe, produced by me, Sean Doherty, with help from associate producer Sarah Begar and research by Alyssa Growl. Engineering and mixing by Joanna Samuel. Our executive producers are Rob Lowe for Low Profile, Nick Liao, Adam Sachs, and Jeff Ross for Team Coco, and Colin Anderson for Stitcher. Booking by Deirdre Dodd. Music by Devin Bryant. Special thanks to Hidden City Studios. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time on Literally.