In short
Rob Lowe interviews actor Jon Bernthal about his acting path and career, focusing on his Russian theater training, key career turning points (especially The Walking Dead), and experiences working on major films and TV. He also discusses themes of free speech, truth-telling in storytelling, and his role in HBO’s We Own This City.
Guests
Jon Bernthal (American actor; trained in Moscow’s disciplined Russian theater system; known for roles including The Walking Dead’s Shane, The Punisher, and HBO’s We Own This City). Rob Lowe (host; actor and podcast interviewer).
Key claims
Bernthal credits a teacher’s decision to send him to Moscow as formative and life-changing; Russian theater training was “brutal” and athletic, with teachers like Oleg Tabakov. He argues free speech and freedom of art are crucial, linking repression to events in Ukraine. He says The Walking Dead saved his life during a period of addiction and that ensemble commitment drove the show’s early success. He praises David Simon’s “journalistic integrity” approach on We Own This City, including ride-alongs and access to real victims/cops.
Notable examples
Moscow training exercises (reading while classmates question you); hidden subway/abandoned-building plays under communist-era risk; Frank Darabont’s firing episode; Wind River’s “acting exercise” monologue; Oliver Stone’s World Trade Center casting process; Fury tank-unit boot camp; We Own This City ride-alongs/raids.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOPodcasting Insights and Gratitude
0:00 to 0:22
Jon shares his podcasting experience and the impact of his guests.
“A dark night, a quiet house, but inside, danger was lurking.”
Podcasting Insights and Gratitude
2:10 to 3:02
Jon shares his podcasting experience and the impact of his guests.
“How are you liking doing your podcast, by the way?”
Common Ground in Discourse
3:02 to 4:08
Discussing how shared experiences can bridge divides among people.
“It's like, you know, I think we all agree so much more about anything than we disagree just as a collective, whether it's the country or the world or city or state or whatever.”
Jon's Journey to Moscow
4:08 to 5:16
Jon recounts how he ended up studying acting in Moscow.
“So, yeah, so I really appreciate you having your podcast.”
The Rigorous Art of Russian Theater
5:16 to 6:38
Exploration of the discipline and challenges of studying in Russia.
“She was like, you are such a troubled student that she's like, not only do we need to get you out of the school, out of this neighborhood, out of this, maybe the city, state, we need to get you out of the country.”
Innovative Acting Techniques
6:38 to 7:37
Jon describes unique training exercises he experienced in Moscow.
“It's a place where, you know, art is really revered.”
Cultural Reflections and Artistic Freedom
7:37 to 11:28
Discussion on the importance of cultural freedoms and their risks.
“What walk me through like a day of the school that you would think I would be like, what?”
Life-Changing Roles and Relationships
11:28 to 14:00
Jon reflects on his significant acting roles and personal life changes.
“Free speech and speaking our mind and freedom of art.”
Gratitude for The Walking Dead Experience
14:00 to 14:57
Jon Bernthal expresses his gratitude for being part of The Walking Dead and its impact on his life.
“involved with it and then going down to Georgia and shooting it the way that we did.”
Humble Beginnings of a Zombie Show
14:58 to 16:16
Jon reflects on the early days of The Walking Dead and its unexpected success.
“Well, and it's funny because I remember when The Walking Dead first came out, Frank, I've spent some time with him.”
Show all 25 chapters
Navigating Frank Darabont's Departure
16:17 to 20:04
Jon discusses the challenges and lessons learned when Frank Darabont left the show.
“We were, we were, we were in Georgia, you know, there were no trailers, there was no craft service.”
The Importance of Collaboration
20:05 to 21:14
Jon highlights the value of collaboration and unity in the filmmaking process.
“I think it's the most beautiful thing about what we do is that we all get together, people from all walks of life, all races, all religions, all sexual orientations, all political persuasions.”
Transformations in The Walking Dead
21:15 to 21:51
Jon compares the evolution of The Walking Dead after key departures.
“Well, you know, I, and it's funny because did you feel, well, they killed you.”
Transformations in The Walking Dead
21:52 to 23:15
Jon compares the evolution of The Walking Dead after key departures.
“You know those pieces in your closet you find yourself wearing on repeat?”
Transformations in The Walking Dead
23:23 to 23:36
Jon compares the evolution of The Walking Dead after key departures.
“Now available in Canada and the UK, too.”
Reflections on Leaving The West Wing
24:19 to 28:00
Jon shares his feelings about leaving The West Wing and the relationships formed.
“How did you feel about not being on Westland?”
Gratitude for Collaborative Filmmaking
28:00 to 29:32
Explore the respect and admiration for collaborators in film.
“You know, like I love that guy anywhere.”
The Art of Directing
29:32 to 31:15
Learn about the nuances of directing and the impact of vision on film.
“You know, my son's an actor slash writer and it's like being an actor today, if you can write, you should also be writing.”
Experiencing Oliver Stone's Direction
31:15 to 34:33
Hear an intriguing story about working with Oliver Stone and his directing style.
“You know, that's your sequence directed by somebody else.”
Challenges in Portraying Real Characters
34:33 to 38:36
Understanding the difficulties and techniques in portraying real-life stories.
“I mean, he literally, it was the first movie I ever did.”
Immersive Acting Experiences
38:36 to 42:03
Discuss the intense and immersive experiences of actors in war films.
“I'm glad to see that my experience isn't alone on that.”
The Intensity of Acting
42:03 to 43:15
Explore the emotional turmoil actors experience during intense scenes.
“And then he puts a camera on you and then you're supposed to attack that person.”
Legacy of The Wire
44:43 to 48:24
Discuss the impact of 'The Wire' and the honor of working with its creators.
“It's a huge honor to work for David Simon, George Pelicanos, an enormous honor to be sort of included in that Baltimore-based crew that made The Wire.”
Gratitude for Collaboration
48:24 to 48:39
Jon expresses admiration for his co-stars and the collaborative process.
“I hope we get a chance to cross paths again someday in additional circumstances.”
Reflections on Recovery
48:39 to 53:27
Rob shares personal insights on acting roles related to addiction and recovery.
“Like I said, I'm a huge fan, just a huge admirer, bro.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00A dark night, a quiet house, but inside, danger was lurking.
0:04Rob Lowe:Oh, we have Xfinity Shield. Its built-in Wi-Fi feature detects movement without cameras. What she didn't know is that online, there lurked an even bigger. Xfinity CyberSecure protects us from digital threats, too. I should have stuck to rom-coms. What if protecting your home and devices could be drama-free? Introducing Xfinity Shield. Visit Xfinity.com slash Shield to learn more. Xfinity. Imagine that. Restrictions apply. Not available in all areas. Xfinity Internet and compatible equipment required. Hey, Chicagoland, the Wayfair store is in your neighborhood at Edens Plaza and Wilmette. Finally, you can feel the fabric, sit on the sectionals, and even open the refrigerators.
0:39Rob Lowe:Plus, our in-store designers will help you bring it all together with free one-on-one design support for any project on any budget. Yep, we said free. Oh, and did we mention the cafe? So what are you waiting for? Come see all that's in store. Visit the Wayfair store today at Edens Plaza and Wilmette. Wayfair, every style, every home Hey John, man, what's up? Thanks for coming on Hey man, I really appreciate you having me, I'm a huge fan of Aw, well, right back at ya
1:21Rob Lowe:Hey everybody, it's literally with me, Rob Lowe, John Bernthal is with us. Great actor. Has been in so much. Well, you'll hear. I'm a huge fan, not only of him, but like the type of stuff that he does is super interesting and some of my favorite stuff. He's currently on HBO's We Own This City, which is this sort of companion piece to the iconic The Wire. I'm assuming you've all seen The Wire because it might be the greatest show ever made. But he's got a lot of great stuff. So I'm going to get right into it because it's a long conversation. And I feel like I say this all the time. It's one of my favorite conversations.
2:02Rob Lowe:But what am I going to say? It's one of my favorite conversations. Here we go.
2:09Rob Lowe:Thanks for coming in. How are you liking doing your podcast, by the way? You know, I am liking it. I'm really grateful for the folks that come on. You know, look, it's a big ask, I feel like, a lot of the times. You know, the people that I have on, you know, are special forces soldiers and police officers and surgeons and coaches. They're folks that really aren't used to being on camera, you know, sort of in front of the mic. And so I know it's sort of a big ask, but they're, to a person, you know, people that have had huge, huge impacts on me and that I've learned so much from. And, you know, as sort of the state of discourse in this country, you know, bringing in people who really walk the walk rather than just talk about it.
2:52it's a huge, I'm just enormously grateful. I've learned so much from them and I'm grateful for the opportunity of getting their voices out there.
3:00Rob Lowe:Yeah, it's a good group that you have on. And I agree with you 100%. It's like, you know, I think we all agree so much more about anything than we disagree just as a collective, whether it's the country or the world or city or state or whatever. And, you know, everybody clickbait and headlines, you know, that's generated. It's like story, You have to have conflict for story. That's right. But just like what you said, I think we all want everything in the world for our kids. We all love this country. We all have worries and concerns. And for the most part, we love our neighbors. But I just think about the last group of folks that we had on were a guy who had done 20 years in prison.
3:45And I had him on with the cop that kind of put him away. They both were finishing each other's sentences. And they had so much more in common than they did the opposite. And I think it's like if these two guys can kind of get along and find bridges and roots of commonality, we all can. I just think, again, so much of the discourse is geared towards keeping folks apart. And that drives me crazy.
4:11Rob Lowe:Yeah, conflict sells. Yes, sir. Conflict sells. So, yeah, so I really appreciate you having your podcast. That's super cool. Thanks. And so you must have tons of thoughts. You grew up – I mean, is it – it's a fair categorization to say you grew up in Russia, right? You spent a lot of time there. Yeah, I don't know that I grew up – I mean, I grew up in Washington, D.C., but, you know, when I decided that I wanted to act, you know, I went to school to play sports. And I played baseball in college. I couldn't finish college. I definitely found myself in a good bit of trouble. I met a wonderful woman who was sort of my first acting teacher, and I went to her, and I really had no exposure to, you know, being an artist, being an actor.
4:56And I didn't really understand if it was any different than being a plumber or being a doctor. You know, what are the steps that I need to take? And she told me, look, if you could audition for this theater school in Moscow, you know, for her, it was the sort of best path. And I think a big part of her strategy was for me to get away from, you know, my knucklehead friends back in.
5:15Rob Lowe:So wait a minute. She was like, you are such a troubled student that she's like, not only do we need to get you out of the school, out of this neighborhood, out of this, maybe the city, state, we need to get you out of the country. As far away as possible. You know, I had like, it was like, you know, when I went to Moscow, I was there for two years. I didn't have an internet account. You know, there's no cell phones. You know, I just, I literally just went. and wait wait wait wait I mean look we obviously know Stanislavski in all of the heritage of it but of all of the places she could have sent you it was Moscow yeah the Moscow Art Theater I think she had this unbelievable love for Russian theater for Eastern European theater and it was the Moscow Art Theater Stanislavski's theater Michael Chekhov's theater Anton Chekhov's theater it's got a great theater school it's enormously disciplined And I think as a young guy, you know, an athlete, a boxer, I think she knew I would really, really respond to the discipline of it.
6:14It was enormously brutal, enormously beautiful, but brutal at the same time. And I think Russia in general, you know, at that point in the late 90s and early 2000s, it was a wild place. But it was for a guy who sort of thought he was street smart and thought he was a little bit tough. You know, going to Moscow was completely eye opening. And I think it was, you know, deeply, deeply formative for me in becoming a man and becoming an artist. It's a place where, you know, art is really revered. You know, there's a statue on nearly every corner of Moscow of a playwright or an actor or a painter. And it's a very masculine profession.
6:51I think as a young man, it's something I just responded to deeply, you know, learning how to do acrobatics, learning how to do ballet, learning how to be in a situation where you really could fail, where a lot of, I think, American theater training was a very coddling place. It was very sort of like if you can't really play sports and you can't really do this, you can always go to the theater where you can sort of be a tree and do no wrong. You know, Russia was very different. It was a school that you had to get in. They were constantly cutting people out. But if you made it through that school, you sort of, you had a career.
7:22You know, you were funneled into the Russian theater system. And that was a really big deal. And I'm I'm just eternally grateful to her and I'm eternally grateful to the people, Russia and the folks that I get to learn with and learn from. Yeah.
7:37Rob Lowe:What walk me through like a day of the school that you would think I would be like, what? You studied that or you had to do this? I mean, it must have been. I mean, like you said, the difference between, you know, the frozen yogurt acting school of West Hollywood and and there must have been insane. Give me give me some contrast. I mean, look, I think, I mean, there's so much different. I mean, I think number one, it's not to disparage anybody who's in theater education in this country. But, you know, in Russia, the highest honor you can get is to be a teacher. So my teachers in Moscow were, you know, not just the most famous actors, but the most respected.
8:20You know, the top of the top. Oleg Tabakov was my teacher. He would be sort of like the Robert De Niro of Russia, a household name. You know, and you learn all kinds of things, training your attention, training your focus. You know, one of the first things you do is get a newspaper clipping and you read it. You have to read a paragraph. And while you're reading the paragraph, everyone in the class is asking you questions. What color are your socks? What did you eat for breakfast? And you have to answer while you're reading. Meanwhile, the teacher will sit there and clap and snap and cough. And when it's over, you've got to say, you've got to answer what everybody's questions were and what the answers were, how many snaps there were, how many coughs there were, and how many claps there were.
9:07And then you have to recite the monologue. And you can't get onto the next part of the curriculum until you can get through that. And that's just like the baseline. That's just like very, very beginning. that's so counterintuitive because you would think that's designed to take you out of the moment when
9:23Rob Lowe:everybody in acting would tell you to be in the moment that's right i i i think you know what they would say to that is that you have to be on stage you need to know your choreography you need to know the perimeters of the stage you need to be listening to your cues you need to be your heart needs to be open but these are sort of the formative first things that you need to do you know before you get into you know opening up your heart opening up your memory digging into feelings from your past. And again, it was, it was very athletic. The training there was very, very athletic, you know, again, acrobatics and ballet and stage combat and learning rhythm.
9:56And, uh, I'm, I'm just grateful for it. And I think also just sort of doing it within the setting of Russian. I think it's really apropos for what's going on now. You know, everybody that I came up with in Moscow had come up during communist times and, you know, during communist times, there were absolutely, you know, public gatherings were outlawed, you know, you couldn't get a group of people together. So there was state sponsored theater. But in state sponsored theater, it had to be pro state productions. And once the state would sort of get wind or decide that your piece was not pro state, actors were executed.
10:30I mean, Meyerhold, who's one of the most famous directors in Moscow, got assassinated right in his apartment. Actors were jailed. You You know, my teachers, they put on a play in hiding. They did it in subway tunnels and abandoned buildings. And, you know, had they been caught, they would have all been in jail. Anybody who came to see that play would have been put in jail. So for them, it was enormously vital. It was life or death. And again, I'm just so grateful that that's who I got to learn from. And I think when I look at it now, so many of the people that I studied with, so many of the artists that I know, they've been jailed.
11:03You know, they've been jailed for speaking against this war, for speaking against the state. and just like when I got back from Moscow, you know, 20 years ago, I just had this deep, deep love and reverence for the place, for the soul of the place, for the artistic sort of community and strength of the place. But I also just so appreciated being an American and being, you know, and having what so many of us sort of take for granted and we've got to protect these things. Free speech and speaking our mind and freedom of art. It's so unbelievably important and vital and crucial and they don't have it there.
11:36And, you know, I think that's hugely, hugely, hugely important and a huge factor in why what's going down in Ukraine is actually going down.
11:46Rob Lowe:Yeah, I always feel like if we, as a country, and it's hard. It takes money and time and people work and not everybody has the ability to do it. But if we could travel more, I think a lot of our problems would go away because we would see how the other half lives as opposed to how we think the other half lives or whatever. And you were there. I mean, you got to go there. Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. so then you come back i just love the notion of you my imagination of you going through that learning that in russia in that time and then like showing up for pilot season just makes me laugh it's like so tell me a little bit about yourself like where did you study you know like you hit him with that you know for me man with my big ears my giant nose didn't get that far for so long man I mean, I feel like for so many years, I just, you know, you hear about being an actor and doors being slammed in your face, but just sort of the palpable horror of casting directors when I would walk into rooms, you know, just with this face, you know, I just like, you know, because it was all, you know, CW shows and soap operas.
12:55you that's yeah yeah yeah just trying to get out of my car you know like i needed a place to live and uh you know man it was uh it was not looking good for a long time i mean it's funny because
13:07Rob Lowe:when i look at you look at your work and look at like your whole presentation i'm like oh this guy was fucking designed in an in a lab to to to do the stuff you do i mean to me it's so it's always different the way it feels to you know it's like that old thing of never compare your insides to someone else's outsides. Right. You know, like I'm like, yeah, the Punisher. Fuck. Yeah. They fucking designed him to be the Punisher. For me, it's why I was, uh, you know, sort of just always so deeply grateful for, for, for walking dead. I just felt like, you know, when that, when that show came around, you know, I, I finally felt like I got to sink my teeth into something, you know, which, which, you know, man, I, you know, as an actor to have something with a real beginning, middle and end and a character that's, that's nuanced and layered.
13:51And, and I just really felt from the beginning that this was something that, you know, I can, I, I can really dig into and, you know, Frank Darabont and then meeting the people, you know, involved with it and then going down to Georgia and shooting it the way that we did. Um, I'm just so, I'm so grateful to, to, to that show and being, being a part of it because it really did, And, you know, I mean, I think in this business, you know, there's people that make the mistake of thinking that something's going to change their life. And I don't think that it normally does. So much of this you can't control.
14:25That's the greatest part about this business. It's also the hardest part of this business. That's what really changed my life. And it was, you know, right before I got married, right before I had my first kid. and I got to know these people like Andy Lincoln and Sarah Wayne Cowles who were these young artists with families that were super committed to their husbands and wives and to their children. It's all I was ever looking for, man. And for me, really trimming off all the fat in my life and just living kind of for my art and for my family, it's made me enormously happy, and I do. I'm super, super grateful for it.
15:04Rob Lowe:Well, and it's funny because I remember when The Walking Dead first came out, Frank, I've spent some time with him. And when I was on the West Wing, he would show up every once in a while. He must have been friends with Sorkin, I think. And so I remember meeting him and I was always a fan, you know, but it was before he did Walking Dead. And then I will tell you that I believe that first season of Walking Dead. Look, it's one of the most successful shows of all time, stipulated, and it actually grew and grew and exploded. But for me, that first season and second season were the shit. Yeah, thanks.
15:44I mean, look, I think that the thing about it, it has such unbelievably humble beginnings. I mean, at that point, AMC was the network of Mad Men and Breaking Bad and was such sort of just prestige television show. And we were. We were the bastard stepchild. We're like a zombie show. And I remember going to, you know, like the Golden Globes and having, you know, those other shows sort of look at us and like, really? A zombie show? And, you know, we got a six episode pickup. I mean, you know, man, that is not a huge, you know.
16:13Rob Lowe:Not a vote of confidence. No, sir, man. No, sir. And, um, but you know, we went there and it was like, it was like a student film. We were, we were, we were in Georgia, you know, there were no trailers, there was no craft service. We ate lunch in the woods, but we were all so unbelievably connected to each other. And I think that when you take a group of people, uh, and, and, and, and you take, uh, you know, an ensemble of actors and you put them in the woods and you say, okay, look, there's zombies out there. if one person isn't fully freaking committed to the fact that like any noise will attract zombies it just brings the whole shit down and i just think we were so blessed and and frank was so good at sort of choosing who he chose uh that you know it was people who just really were willing to throw everything into that and and and and i think i don't know if you've had this experience but you know for me those experiences that have been enormously righteous and when things have really worked out it's also the group of people that i've become closest with and i don't know if you found that too but the people in the walking dead are some of my closest friends in the world well that kind of leads me to my next question is how how did you navigate when frank was no longer with the show was that a big deal i would think it would have had to have been it killed me man it did and it was uh it was uh you know an enormous lesson an enormous lesson sort of in hollywood to somebody who just you know look i i think there's so many lessons on that show you know i was finally sort of on the i had this great character on this hit show that people were actually watching and then they killed me you know like and i knew i was going quick um so that was a big lesson but i think the thing with frank um i i just you know for me i just utterly couldn't comprehend it and you know he was he was so good his scripts were so good and so good so good and And, you know, he's really a national treasure artist.
18:05And I think, you know, we would get these scripts and we would know, don't even read them until they say revised by Frank Darabont because every word would change. And then they would literally just like shoot off the screen. And, you know, when it happened, it was really sort of like a sinister event. You know, we were in Georgia and we all at lunch had to get in this group of vans. We got taken into this airplane hangar where there was no cell phone reception. and they told us Frank was on his way to a meeting where he was going to get fired. And I remember people were trying to call him and warn him.
18:37And it was funny because we sort of divided in two camps. You know, everybody was so loyal to Frank. But, you know, for me, you know, look, a year earlier, you know, I was like facing jail time. I was a complete mess. I still hadn't gotten sober. I wasn't engaged to my wife. I felt that sort of that period of my life and that show really saved my life. And I owed it all to this man. And I was like, look, if he's not here, we can't go on. And I think there was one faction of the group that said, look, we got to walk out. Like if they're going to fire Frank, we got to walk out. And then there's this other faction of the show that was sort of like, look, if we leave, the crew doesn't have jobs.
19:23And there wasn't that much work in Georgia at that time. And the show sort of needs to go on. And it was getting to be pretty contentious among this group of people that absolutely loved each other. And love was still there. But it was right at the time where there's also sort of this contentious feeling in the story of the show, where there was sort of the Shane camp and the Rick camp. And strangely, it all kind of like played into all that. But, you know, as that sort of developed and went on, it was a huge lesson for me. It made me see that these things are often so much more complicated than we ever know.
19:57And these decisions all happen in, you know, air conditioned rooms that, you know, actors aren't invited into most of the time. But, you know, I think it's important to stand up for what you think is right in this business. I think it's important to, I think, sadly, the spaces and the projects where, you know, sort of the hierarchy of who has a voice and who doesn't have a voice between crew and cast member and directors and showrunners, I think those projects are often don't come off as good as projects where everyone has a voice. and everyone is sort of there together. I think it's the most beautiful thing about what we do is that we all get together, people from all walks of life, all races, all religions, all sexual orientations, all political persuasions.
20:45You got Teamsters, you got Grips, you got actors, you got hair and makeup folks, and you all come together on this creative endeavor. And it's one of the most beautiful things to be a part of when you're all there for each other and a part of a team, listening to each other, and there is no hierarchy. Just get the best directors, the best filmmakers in my mind that I've gotten word with, all just pulverize all that bullshit and realize how toxic it is. But it's, look, I think everybody deals with it in every business. And it's tough. And it was a big lesson for me.
21:16Rob Lowe:Well, you know, I, and it's funny because did you feel, well, they killed you. So you were kind of not really around to be in what the show morphed into. For me, it was really a different show. I felt like. Like if you watch years one and two and then say watch four and five, for me it's a really – same people. But it's definitely – it's a little bit like West Wing after Aaron Sorkin left. It's like – I can only imagine. Aaron Sorkin's gone. I'm gone. So I don't have to – I don't really – I didn't pay much attention to the John Wells version of the West Wing. But it's same people. But it's a different show.
21:51Rob Lowe:And when you have an iconic voice like a Darabont or a Sorkin, and now no matter who comes in after that, it's going to be a different show.
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24:28How did you feel about not being on Westland? I mean, what was that feeling like
24:34Rob Lowe:for you i mean the relationships had all run their course right it was like there was nothing really left to to mine right in terms of the the relationships and the show was going in a in a in a direction that i could see exactly where it was heading and i'd done everything i could do uh and and i think aaron obviously felt the same way because he he left about i don't know it was like six weeks after I left, I think. So, you know, and you kind of go, you know, it's, it's, it's always better to leave on top. Right. I'm sure what you had, you know, that, that I didn't have is just sort of like my first job.
25:13Like I didn't know, I was like, oh fuck. Okay. So this is it. Like, this is, this is sort of the career, you know, you, you know, and you're, you know, Rob Lowe. I just think that, you know, for me, it's, I was so grateful and still am so grateful for being a part of that show and fostering the relationships that I've had. But I'm also looking back so enormously grateful for leaving when I did and getting off that show and for the opportunities that I've had since then. And, you know, you always say, like, if you wish you could go back and sort of talk to that, you know, younger version. I mean, I was so scared.
25:49I just was so like, of course, you know, of course, you finally get on a hit show and then it all. but you know that's um that's just like not the way that you should be looking at this ever i think
26:00Rob Lowe:no you never know what's going to come in and by the way then so you you're in one of my favorite movies that i um always tell people i ask them if they've seen it a lot of people saw it but a lot of people didn't and wind river um it's one of my favorite movies of all time that movie if you haven't seen wind river uh it is absolutely fantastic you're fantastic everything about it is i mean i could go on and on and on and on about it and you know it's obviously tyler sheridan uh and you know he's now going on to you know yellowstone and so many amazing things but jesus that movie is fucking bad ass yeah yeah i mean look i i love i love taylor you know i've gotten to work with him uh three times you first on sicario and then and then um on those that wish me dead but but you know wooden river was the first one that that he directed and you know he um it was such a wonderful experience and i don't know i it really fell into kind of exactly what i love to do more than totally an actor it's just like yes you know for me man that was one day of shooting and it was literally like he called me up he said look this is going to be an acting exercise he was literally like from russia he said i want you to open a trailer door and i want you to be everyone in the movie has to think you're the bad guy and then i'm going to let you write a monologue where in the course of that monologue you've got to convince everybody that you're the good guy and then you need to have this terrible violent event take place but you got to make it look like anything different would have happened that it wouldn't happen like it can't be that's right can't be premeditated it's got to exist in the moment we just sat there It was a 22-hour day on set.
27:45It was their last day of shooting. We just shot the whole thing. And it was, you know, the thing about Taylor, you know, he started out as an actor. And then, you know, he wrote Sicario. And he's just like a guy I would follow anywhere. You know, like I love that guy anywhere. He's just like, you know, he gets it. He gets it from everybody's point of view. And he's a brilliant guy. And I have so much respect for his work ethic and his ability to take risks. And, yeah, I was really grateful to be a part of that.
28:18Rob Lowe:I mean, the performances in it, I mean, Rennert has never been better. And everybody has their big speech, which I love. But Rennert's big speech is insane. Just insane. Elizabeth Olsen, totally 100 billion trillion percent believe her as that FBI agent. And that's really hard to pull off. 100 percent. I mean, everybody can pull off the movie FBI agent. Right. That's easy to do. And it's perfectly great. She's actually a real FBI agent. I agree. I agree. And the standoff shootout sequence, I don't think there's ever been a better shootout sequence ever on film. Ever. Yeah. Ever. It's a cool film, man.
29:04It's a really great film. And again, just, you know, we know to be sort of this actor on Sons of Anarchy that's kind of like frustrated telling other people's stories and then say, you know what, man, I'm just going to go take a shot. I'm going to go write something. And then you write Sicario. And then you say, you know what, I'm going to give it a whirl. I'm going to try to direct something. Then you direct Wind River. And then I'm going to run a TV show. And then it's Yellowstone. I mean, that's Taylor Sheridan.
29:32Rob Lowe:You know, my son's an actor slash writer and it's like being an actor today, if you can write, you should also be writing. And by the way, you might not even know you can write until you start. That's right. And like, I just, again, I love, listen, I love the notion of my boy, Billy Bob Thornton, sitting in some trailer and some shithole on location in Canada and some piece of crap that he'll never even remember in his honey wagon. And, and, and making faces in the mirror. And the next thing you know, he, he writes Sling Blade. And wasn't that, wasn't Sling Blade a Larry Moss exercise? Oh, that's so interesting.
30:16Rob Lowe:I know the, the, the story I know is that he, he had that character, but it had come from him being bored and making, literally making faces in a honey wagon. Wow. And, and, and then, and then wrote, um, and then wrote a, a, a, a, um, short film. And then the short film then went to awards and stuff. And then use the short film to make the mutt to drum up the money for the, for the long film of Sling Blade. Just watch it again the other night. It's and, and, um, Oh my God. Uh, everybody isn't John Ritter's insane. And it's so good. And, um, Dwight Yoakam is on. So good. But leave a, And how about the kit?
31:03Rob Lowe:Oh, but you know what it is, though? It's like you say, it's the direction. The direct, you know, Billy directed it. Taylor directed Wind River because that shootout sequence directed by somebody else is just a shootout sequence. Yeah. You know, that's your sequence directed by somebody else. And by the way, it would probably be really good, but it wouldn't be that. No, no way. It's a crazy push and pull of having an idea, trying to execute your idea and being free enough in the moment to let people fly, let people explore. And I don't know if you've had the same experience, but for me, the really, truly wonderful directors that I've worked with, they're all so different.
31:46They come at it so differently and they have such different temperaments. But the one thing that's absolutely uniform in all of them is they've done the work. They know the story. They know what they want, but they're so free. is so respect the moment. There's this absolute, you know, just feeling of electricity and that anything can happen on set on the day. And you just get, you know, that's what we do it for. And they nurture that and they, you know, they cultivate that. And I really find it in all of it.
32:16Rob Lowe:Well, that brings me to Oliver Stone. Okay. My Oliver moment is, you were in the nine, what's the actual title of the 9-11 movie? World Trade Center. Oliver. Uh, so like when I was coming up, Oliver was making platoon and all of those things. And like, you know, Charlie was like my baseball buddy Sheen. And the next thing you know, he's like a big movie star. I'm like, wait, why didn't, does Oliver not have my phone number? I could have gone to the Philippines. Um, I know Johnny Depp's in it and all these guys are like bubbling up and now they're great. And so I finally get my moment to, to work with Oliver and it's uh it's going to be al pacino as noriega and me as oliver north and so we do this big table reading we took a break halfway through and i'm at the water fountain getting water and oliver comes over and he looks at me and just shakes his head like sort of like vaguely disgusted and disappointed and i get like obviously super nervous like whoa what's that hey how do you think it's going he goes and he puts his hand on my shoulder and looks right in in my eyes and goes i just thought it would be bigger and i'm like okay so then i'm like that mother and i'm like okay all right you want you want bigger you want bigger all right i'll give you bigger and so i was seated next to him at the table reading and and so we come back from the break and i don't whatever my first line was i just give it and i just see oliver kind of laughing to himself and smiling but like that was his version of directing the movie never got made because there was half of it was super cool and everything you thought you wanted right you know what i mean and then the other half was like a treatise on communism in central america and It was very clear when it got to that, whatever act that was, that no one was going to go see this movie.
34:19Rob Lowe:And I could just see Al Pacino's eyes rolling up in his head. And nothing ever came from it. But that was my moment in the sun with Oliver Stone. But his bedside manner is definitely very different than any other director, don't you think? No question. And, you know, for me, I had him so early. I mean, he literally, it was the first movie I ever did. Oh, wow. You know, five years after 9-11. So it's just like such a, you know, sort of just heavy project. It plays itself. You know what I mean? Yeah, it does. But, you know, I remember, you know, I was doing the movie and at the same time I was doing this sort of crazy comedy called Bar Stars about the club scene in the San Bernardino Valley.
35:07And I mean, literally like couldn't be in a more different, you know, atmosphere. and I remember I was flying back and forth to New York to do the film and we were doing sort of like my biggest scene in the film and you know I was playing real guy Chris Amoroso and you know Oliver really you know to his credit you know really kind of shaped everything for me at least as far as I research and jumping in because you know we were playing bus terminal port authority cops and Oliver brought us out six weeks early. He brought us to the Port Authority. And, you know, he said, look, if you guys want to keep coming, you can come here every day.
35:44And I got to know Officer Fairbanks and Sergeant Finney, guys who I'm still close with. I went out with them every single day to get to know, you know, Chris and this character, Chris Amoroso. And I remember all I wanted to do is sort of reach out to his widow, Jamie, and he had the youngest widow of all the first responders. and at the end of my time sort of researching with these guys, they took me to Jamie and introduced me and I was just so grateful for it and I felt like so lived it. But I remember, you know, shooting this scene, Oliver, you know, we're shooting it all day long and in the morning, he just was like loving everything I was doing and I felt on top of the world and then I got it and then all of a sudden he just switched on me.
36:30Everything I was doing was terrible and after every scene, He would like walk down the entire, you know, pretend concourse at the World Trade Center, you know, with this big plotting walk. And he'd be like, it's terrible. It's too big. It's too much. And then next time, like, you're not doing anything. It's too small. And I just, I couldn't fucking win. And then all of a sudden, it was amazing. And then he comes to me and he says, where's your jacket? I go, what do you mean, where's my jacket? He goes, you mean you're in the World Trade Center on 9-11 and you're not wearing like a flak jacket?
37:00I said, look, Oliver, you don't choose what you wear. There's like a, like every fleck of dirt is chosen by somebody, you know, like what are you talking about? He goes, ah, bullshit. You're just not wearing the jacket because you're too vain. He goes, that's a problem with all you young actors. And he said to Mike Pena, you're vain. He said to Armando, you're vain. But then to me, he's got these big thick fingers. He put it like right in my face. He goes, you're the worst of all. He goes, you think you look good in that blue fucking suit? You're fucking vain. And honestly, Rob, like I didn't, I just lost it at that point.
37:28I figured I was getting fired anyways. I'm pouring sweat. I'm so nervous. It's my first job. So I just smacked his hand out of my face. I said, let me tell you something. You might be Oliver Stone, but I will beat your ass, man. I'm a lot of things in this world, but I'm not fucking vain. And I said, I'll do your whole movie with a clown nose on my face. I'll do it with a bag over my head. I'm not vain. And Oliver turned around and walked off a set. And literally everything stopped. And Nicolas Cage turned to me. He's like, wow, man, the way you handled that. You like hook adversity and threw more adversity.
38:00I'm like, yo. And Mike Peña was like, look, John, like, he just does that, dude. He just, he's just fucking with you. You can't like threaten his life. And, you know, he came back about 20 minutes later and we did the scene. And then he said, hey, man, I want you to meet me after work tonight. And he took me out to eat, man. And he said, he was like, you know, you're my favorite thing. You're a young actor with balls. And we became really, really close after that. And I don't suggest that. I really did see that this manipulation of the atmosphere and to get you fucked up. I'm sure I had my whole performance planned.
38:35I'm sure I was saying it the exact same way. He wanted to change it up. Ultimately, I was grateful for it. I thought that was it.
38:44Rob Lowe:I'm glad to see that my experience isn't alone on that. I've got to ask you about Fury because it's another movie I love. I work with Jim Perrick, who was in the movie as well. He's on my show, Lone Star, 9-1-1 Lone Star. He tells great stories about working with Dave Ayer. Yeah, I mean, look, that movie, the process of that, I'm sure Parrot has told you. I mean, it was unlike, especially for us, that main kind of tank unit. You know, it was eight months. You know, it was, you know, there's no days off. Every exterior shot of the tank, we were really in that. We slept in the tank. We ate in this tank.
39:20We pissed in the tank and shat in the tank. Like, you know, it was it was an unbelievably sort of like all in psychologically, you know, look, you know, you do these sort of actor boot camps and you do these things where, you know, you're always operating under the umbrella of safety. But, you know, I think, you know, David himself is a combat vet. He really, really wanted to try to capture this feeling of, you know, riding through hell in a tin box. And, you know, what he put us through, there was, you know, the first three months we were there, we would do martial arts in the morning, and we'd all have to fight each other.
39:59He does that on all his movies and makes everybody fight. I would have to fight the karate teacher and the stunt guys. And he would sort of like circle up and watch. And, you know, he had us do six hours of tank training every single day. And then there was just like a lot of sort of emotional manipulation and really getting people to break down. And he had these Navy SEALs there that took us through this, you know, mini-buds course. And, you know, Kevin Vance, the Navy SEAL who kind of was the military coordinator on that film, still one of my closest friends. they say there's nothing in the world closer than a tank unit because you're just in that space.
40:36You know each other so well, the way you smell, the way you can finish everybody's sentences before they're through with them. And that's really how I feel about the guys in that tank. Shia and Mike and Logan and Brad. It was really like this deranged, insane family. And I'm so grateful for that. experience you're so brought in to get you're so you're so galvanized you so believe in what you're doing and then it's almost like again like air he said he's a madman i i would work with air anytime i mean like i think any actor who has a chance to work with him should jump on it you know like the process that he puts out you know i was even talking to will smith when we did king richard you know and he did suicide squad with him you know whatever happens with the film to work with air, he will just, it's an absolute, like, sort of journey in just being a psychopath.
41:33Rob Lowe:And I hear, the stories I hear from Suicide Squad, because, again, my friend Jim Perrick was Jared Leto's henchman in the movie. And again, like, he's capable of cutting people out of it. That's the other thing. He's like, if it doesn't work, you're gone. And, like, the Jared Leto got cut out of the movie. Yep, yep. And there's no, like, nothing is, he thrives on that. He thrives on this sort of madness. But I think the other thing that David does that I just loved was what he does is he puts the camera on you and then he sets everybody loose on you. So he spends all this time, you know, talking and everyone sort of divulging their own history, their own complications in their past, their family.
42:11And then he puts a camera on you and then you're supposed to attack that person. so you know shy just going after brad and close-ups and you know the the the your hands start to shake tears start to come out because we are literally ripping each other apart and then afterwards you're like shit man what did i what did i just fucking do what did i just say but it is that and like by the way man you're making a movie about world war ii it's like you should be doing i mean it shouldn't be comfortable it should be toxic but that was that was as crazy and insane and toxic environment as I can imagine.
42:43But I wouldn't change it for the world. I love it.
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44:54Rob Lowe:so for sure the wire is has to be the the most influential show that you hear amongst people at the highest levels who make television it's it's not open for debate it's like you know it's always the wire the wire the wire the wire the wire so now that you're on we own this city which is, you know, from Simon, right, who created The Wire, what has that been like for you to be in that sort of legacy? Look, I think more than anything else, I mean, for me, I think whether it's, you know, no judgment, whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, I try to not concern myself with, you know, things like that that I can't control at all.
45:38It's a huge honor to work for David Simon, George Pelicanos, an enormous honor to be sort of included in that Baltimore-based crew that made The Wire. It's a family there. Baltimore is an unbelievably beautiful and brutal city, and it's sort of at the tip of the spear of so many issues that are deeply, deeply important to me and that I've had a lot of real-life experience with, and that's issues of race, issues of policing, police corruption, police brutality. look I'm enormously grateful to not just be a part of the show but to be able to approach those issues with really diving into the womb and really the way those guys work is they work with journalistic integrity so as you know so many of the times you go into a scene and the goal is to try to make the scene as the stakes as high as possible try to make it as interesting as possible as dramatic as possible, as funny as possible, as electric as possible.
46:36But with those guys, it's this blend of journalism and entertainment where what they really want to do is they just want to tell the truth. And we're shooting in the real places where it really happened, oftentimes with the real victims or with real cops. And it's just a it's a way of working that I'm so grateful for. And, you know, for me, you know, playing sort of the probably the most corrupt cop in the history of Baltimore, a real guy who's really in prison, who, you know, everyone on that in that city knows he was just indicted a few years ago. You know, going to the police department and say, hey, we're going to tell this story.
47:12We want to tell this story sort of the ugliest chapter of your department. If that was made by any other filmmakers, they would sort of tell you to fuck off. But, you know, for me, because it was the wire, it gained, it allowed me to have access, you know, for three months, I was on ride alongs every day. I went ride alongs with, you know, aggressive plainclothes unit police officers, every single day in every single district of the city, I got to go on on raids with drug raids with the Baltimore SWAT team. And most of it's got to form these unbelievable relationships with guys that really knew Wayne, that knew my character, I got this unbelievable access, made friends for life.
47:51I got sort of a front row seat to, again, explore these issues that, like I said, are deeply important to me. So I think that like, you know, I think like the wire, I think this show is not about sort of being the most popular show on television right now. It's about lasting. And I think that's what you get when you try to tell the truth. And that's what we're doing with this show. And I'm really proud of it. And I'm really grateful to be a part of it. I mean, again, there are only so many greats in the world, and he's one of them.
48:23Rob Lowe:I appreciate you. I hope we get a chance to cross paths again someday in additional circumstances. This was awesome. I'm looking forward to We Own the City and the podcast. You've got a lot going on, and thanks for coming by, man. I really appreciate it. I really appreciate you having me, man. Like I said, I'm a huge fan, just a huge admirer, bro.
48:49Rob Lowe:I could have talked to him for a lot longer time. What a great dude. That's the kind of guy you want to end up on a set with. For sure. On a location with. Stuck in some hell hole. In some tank. Think being a movie star is all sushi and sunglasses? Now we know it's not. Anyway. Ring. Ring. What's that? Ooh. It's the lowdown line.
49:16Hello, you've reached literally in our lowdown line where you can get the lowdown on all things about me, Rob Lowe. 323-570-4551.
49:31Rob Lowe:So have at it. Here's the beep. Hi, Rob. This is Terry from Minneapolis. Hey, thanks so much for doing the podcast. I listen to a lot of podcasts, and yours is my favorite, probably because I think you're a very good host. Like you, I've been sober for many years, and I really appreciate hearing your insights on recovery. And my question is, have you ever played a character who was an alcoholic or addict? And if so, did your personal experiences help with their role? Thanks so much, and keep up the good work. Well, Terry, first of all, thank you for super kind words. And I really appreciate hearing from folks that they like the show.
50:17Rob Lowe:It really means a lot to me. It truly does. So thank you for that. So, bro, I have got a little piece of filmography for you to go watch to answer your question. I did a movie. Oh, my God. I did a movie called I Melt With You. It is a very obscure indie shoestring budget by the great director Mark Pellington, who is known for his music videos with R.E.M. and Pearl Jam and on and on and on. and it's the story of addiction. It's a movie about a group of men who are going through midlife crises and are on a drug bender together on an isolated rented Airbnb on the Big Sur coast. I will warn you that it is the darkest movie you may ever see.
51:29Rob Lowe:And my character is a doctor who is also prescribing drugs to people. And I do more pills and blow and drink and I'm up all night and girls show up and it's just on and on and on. And I was probably 25 years sober when I made it. And I felt high, We shot all night long, three nights in a row, music and dancing, and it was a very small crew. And by the time, there were times when I was like, this feels so real to me. And sort of, if I can be totally honest, kind of exciting and wildly depressing all at once. It's not for everyone. It bears the honor of having the most legendary screening at Sundance Film Festival.
52:31Rob Lowe:I think 30 % of the audience walked out. It's one of those movies that when I read the script, I was like, if we do this right, half of the people in any given audience will walk out. That's how dark it is. But it's super good and I'm super proud of it. But it is not for everyone. Anyway, so there's that. And, you know, you're always asked to play drunk. You know, that always happens. My biggest fear is that they, when I ask for non-alcoholic beer, that they give me real beer. And that's happened a couple of times. But, you know, look, as I've said a number of times, you know, being in recovery for as long as I have been has made me a way better actor, way better person, way better everything.
53:14Rob Lowe:So anytime I get to hear a fellow brother or sister out there checking in, congratulations on your recovery. and if you know as always if anybody's out there struggling there is tons of hope and there is tons of successful stories of people whose lives changed and I'm sending y 'all prayers and thank you for calling more to come on next week's literally don't forget to subscribe to the rest of our show don't forget five-star review on Apple super super helpful and a great way you can give back to us. All right. See you next week. You've been listening to Literally with Rob Lowe, produced by me, Rob Schulte, with help from associate producer Sarah Bagar.
53:59Rob Lowe:Our coordinating producer is Lisa Berm. Our research is done by Alyssa Graw. The podcast is executive produced by Rob Lowe for Low Profile, Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross, and Joanna Solitaroff at Team Coco, and Colin Anderson at Stitcher. All of the music you hear is by Devin Bryant. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week on Literally with Rob Lowe.
54:28Rob Lowe:This has been a Team Coco production in association with Stitcher.
54:41Rob Lowe:Hi, it's me, your gutters. Everything is totally fine. There's just a lot of debris up here, and I've been managing it mostly on my own. I just thought you could find someone on Angie to clean me up. I could really use it. Your gutters have waited long enough. Find a pro at Angie.com. Imagine relying on a dozen different software programs to run your business, because of the way it promotes pro. And each one is more expensive and more complicated than the last, and can be pretty stressful. And some say Odo's programs for manufacturers, and accounting, and more are like building blocks, and are all connected on one platform.
55:14Rob Lowe:But I say Odoo is amazing. Let Odoo harmonize your business with simple, efficient software that can handle everything for a fraction of the price. Sign up today at Odoo.com. That's Odoo.com.
From the publisher
We're looking back at Rob's 2022 conversation with "The Odyssey" and "Spider-Man: Brand New Day" star Jon Bernthal! Find out why Jon left the United States for an intense training session at Stanislavski's theater in Moscow and how grateful he is for his time with The Walking Dead.. And hear Jon and Rob's favorite Oliver Stone stories! This episode originally aired in July 2022.
Make sure to subscribe to the show on YouTube at YouTube.com/@LiterallyWithRobLowe! Got a question for Rob? Call our voicemail at 323-570-4551. Your question could get featured on the show!
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