Kenny Loggins: Taking Liberties with Rainbows (Re-Release)

0:00What made you move out of LA? I was living in East L.A. and a buddy of mine that I went to Pasadena City College with called me and said, you've got to come up to Santa Barbara. I fucking love this. I've got to stay here.

0:21hey everybody welcome to literally with me rob lowe i love doing this podcast as you guys hopefully know and every once in a while uh the best thing about it is that i get to fanboy out. And, you know, just be like, what? Wait, what? And today's one of those days, because I'm talking to Kenny Loggins. Come on. I mean, you know, I'm all about my Yacht Rock. Maybe you don't know it. And I'm telling you the first time I am, but he's so much more than Yacht Rock. And he's the soundtrack to my life and probably yours too. It's a tremendous career that has spanned so many moments and I cannot wait to finally ask him if Michael Jackson ripped off his vocal style in This Is It.

1:11Because I think he did. I'm going to ask him. We'll see what he says. Anyway, so here we go. Ladies and germs, Kenny Loggins.

1:21Now, do you remember when Joe Walsh lived up here? Yeah. I can't believe Joe Walsh lived here. A little too laid back for Joe? Well, particularly at that time in his life, if you know what I'm saying. And I know you do. I played golf with Joe back then. Really? And we played at the Montecito Country Club, which was totally ironic that Joe was a member of the country club. Of a country club. Yeah, that's definitely against the image. And he never used a driver. He always used an iron because he hated his drivers. Jeez, that's a hard thing. If you can hit a long, straight iron, you're probably in better shape than a crappy wood.

1:56Wow. For those who actually play golf, that was our version of Bushwood. Oh, my God. Right. Yes. Bushwood. Do you remember the first time you saw Caddyshack? I was driving up to Santa Barbara. I had worked with John Peters when he was with Barbra Streisand. And when I met Barbara and John and I played some stuff that I was working on, ideas for Celebrate Me Home, she loved a bunch of melodies. So we started working on melodies for Star is Born. And then when they broke up, John went solo and his first project was to make Caddyshack. And so he called me and said, I need your help. Come on in and check this out.

2:40It was great. I mean, he didn't need any help. He had everything just fell into place for him on that. I made a list of my all time favorite movies on my phone. I was just bored. I'm going to see how far I can go with this list, how long I can get it. And Caddyshack, just for fun. And it was really a good exercise, actually, if nothing else in film. And Caddyshack came up as the first comedy. Oh, really? Yeah. Because the way I did it was like movies that when they're on, you have to watch them. Uh-huh. That was like, it was not about reviews or stature or just plain old. If you see it, you're watching it.

3:15Yeah. And Caddyshack, and then the quotability of it, forget it. Yeah. Every line in Caddyshack. You can't help but wonder how much of that was improvised and how much of that was really written or fleshed out. There's a book that came out two years ago about the making of Caddyshack, which is really it talks a lot about that. But I think your song is a huge part of it. I really I really do. Because it's at the beginning and the end. Yeah. Because the gopher has to dance to it whenever possible. Whenever possible. Yeah, right. I mean, and I love and I love that the gopher is just a bad puppet.

3:46You know, I love that. When I first saw the movie, it was it was not in the movie. It was John said to me, oh, we're going to have a hand puppet in this part. And I thought, that's a stupid idea. That'll never work. Well, I think it works because of the song. Because when the golf ball comes flying in. Yeah. And the gopher ducks and then the song hits. I mean, come on. I mean, dude, it's movie magic. Could look like Howdy Doody there for a minute. I mean, in the canon of your movie smash songs, I mean, everybody has their favorite. I've heard yours is Footloose. Mine's for sure I'm All Right. Yeah, I love I'm All Right, too.

4:28I recorded the demo of I'm All Right here in Santa Barbara, and the drummer I used was not an extremely adept drummer. So any kind of complication idea that I had, he couldn't do. So finally, I just boiled it down to foot snare, foot snare, foot snare. You're kidding. And it became the essential groove of I'm all right. It's crazy how well that works. That's under the category of happy accidents. And as you know, you've probably had your share. It's really super true. It's like what could flummox a lesser artist, whether it's an actor, writer, producer, singer, where all of a sudden something doesn't work out and you could be really pissed or ruin it, It actually ends up making it better.

5:10Yeah. Sometimes that really does happen. Or just ending up showing up for something that you wouldn't have normally had to show up for. Mm-hmm. Yes. So that's what happened with Danger Zone. I was in the studio. When I wrote for Top Gun, it was a cattle call. And I was in a private theater watching a preview of the, you know, whatever edit they had with about six or seven other big pop acts. Who else was there? There was an R &B act that came in right behind us, about four guys. There were a couple of guys already in the theater. Mickey Thomas and the Starship was part of it. I know that REO was part of it.

5:53Ototo was part of it. and so I'm sitting there and I'm seeing all this competition around me and and then about midway through the movie comes the volleyball scene and I was writing at the time with Peter Wolff the Austrian producer I nudged Peter and I said nobody's gonna write for this let's let's write for this scene so that you know because I knew from my experience that just being a part of the soundtrack album was going to be pivotal and it kind of didn't matter what scene you write for as long as you get in it. Wow. So I think we were the only ones who submitted a song for that scene. So I was in the studio working on playing with the boys, which is the song we wrote.

6:32And I got a call from Giorgio Moroder's office. Giorgio was doing the bulk of the music for the movie. And he had a song and he didn't have a singer because the band that was supposed to do it dropped out. The lawyers refused to agree about something. So they dropped out of the deal. and he said, I have to dub this song in tomorrow and I don't have a singer for it. So can you come in and sing it? I didn't even listen to it. I just said, is it up tempo? Because I needed a rock and roll one for the show. And he said, oh yeah, it's a rocker. So I went, good, I'm in. We went over lyrics and chords.

7:09I added some things, changed some words. We added a bridge and then went in the next day and sang it. And you know, everybody was writing for that scene. Just blind luck. Is that the biggest of all of them? They're all huge. Is that the biggest? Of the songs, you mean? Yeah. Actually, no, I found out just the other day by doing an interview that Danger Zone peaked at number two behind Peter Gabriel. If you're going to be behind somebody, it might as well be Peter Gabriel. Right. I think it was Sledgehammer. But it peaked at two. Footloose was at number one for a while. Have you seen, are you involved at all in the new Top Gun?

7:45Yes. Have you seen it? I haven't seen it yet. Well, I saw, you know, things, you know, movie versions here and there. They showed me scenes that they thought the song might go in. Are they going to put Danger Zone in it? Yeah. Oh, yes! Yeah! When I finally met Tom Cruise on Fallon about slightly before 2020 started. No way! You never met him? Never met him. No way! And so, you know, I just stopped him before we went on and I said, so yes or no? Is Danger Zone in the new movie? He said, we can't do Top Gun without Danger Zone. Yeah, that's Tom. That's so cool. Very few movies these days get me excited to go to, but I cannot wait for Top Gun 2.

8:30Yeah, they've got a great word of mouth. They let the press see it recently. Ooh. For the last year, I was not allowed to tell anyone that Danger Zone was in the movie because he loved it so much he wanted it to be the surprise element. Exactly, yes. And so that when it came on, people would go, Crazy. Yeah, they go crazy. And then finally, I found out that they had to let the cat out of the bag. They did a private showing for maybe a dozen. And all the reviews were incredible. So I'm excited. Yeah, I've talked to people who've seen it and just said it's the aerial footage is beyond belief in it.

9:04Insane, the stuff that they've invented for it. Do you want to know my Footloose story? No.

9:17No, it's your show, man. Come on. So Dean Pitchford, who wrote the script and a lot of the songs and the late, great Craig Zayden. And it was like their first sort of big movie. Yeah. And I read the script and I loved it. I knew I loved it. I know it sounds insane, but I loved it. And the music was a huge part of the script. I don't remember if they had seen. I don't think there were even CDs in those days, but somehow a lot of the songs are already done. and you could kind of listen. Yeah, Dean and I wrote a couple of the songs to the actual paper screenplay. There you go. You know, there was nothing to see when we started on it.

9:55He wanted me to write with him so that would cement him in not only as the screenwriter, but also as a songwriter. Okay, that makes sense. So I'm right in this memory because I remember the music was in the script. Obviously, it's about dancing. So they talk about cattle calls. They had a cattle call of all of the sort of, you know appropriate fledgling movie stars of of that age group and um you do movies not anymore so how old were you how old were you when they when you went in to see that uh i would have been 20 wow i would have been 20 right at the beginning perfect time for yeah right low to be oh no i was It was like teed up.

10:40Yeah. And they loved me. Craig, it was Craig's idea. And we met at, I forget where we met, but they were the ones who told me about it. I didn't even know about it. My agent didn't tell me about it. And so I thought, well, this is going to happen. So I started taking dance lessons at Joe Tremaine's dance studio. I hear you do a hell of a foxtrot. Well, listen. Wouldn't have come in handy with Footloose. No, it was not good. But I worked really, really hard for weeks for the big dance audition. which was at Paramount Studios. And they had a big cattle call dance. And all the Paramount brass were there.

11:14And Herb Ross, who I think, believe directed the movie. And this is it. This is happening. This is what we're doing. And it was, get this. I'll never forget. It was to a Styx song. Why it wasn't to... Really? Dancing to a Styx song? Yeah. And we already had Footloose in the can. Oh, it was definitely not to Footloose. Yeah. For sure it wasn't, which is so bizarre. And it ended with a big leap to your knees, stage slide on your knees. That's what they do. Well, everyone can do that. Not me. They didn't teach you that at the Tremaine dance studio. No. Well, I blew out my ACL. Doing the slide? On the slide.

11:53I left the soundstage on a stretcher. Oh, my God. And as I'm being wheeled out, Craig Zayden and Neil Maron and everybody are like standing over my stretcher and like, look, Rob, don't worry. I mean, we're really, we're just going to, we're going to hire a dancer. We need to hire, we're going to hire a dancer. We're not going to hire an actor. And two weeks later, they hired Kevin Bacon.

12:17Hollywood. Anything they tell you is true. Of course. Yeah. Why would it be anyway? That's the ethic of Hollywood. Okay. So I have a theory that on the song, This Is It, I've always wanted to ask you this, particularly the opening, the opening verses that you're singing, 100 % Michael Jackson ripped that style off. Really? 100%. I've never even noticed that. I've never thought about that. And I don't know what song it would be, but for many of them, like when he sings in that kind of breathy, sort of quasi falsetto thing, there's just no doubt in my mind that he didn't just steal it. I saw Gerald Hall and John Oates recently told a story that Michael said that he Michael said, I stole.

13:06He said, I hope you guys are OK that I stole your kisses on my lips. And they're like, what? I didn't. What? When did you steal it? And there was some song that they they never did the math either. So I bet you go back and listen to some of Michael's stuff because I know you worked with him. Yeah. Oh, well, you Michael called you for We Are The World. Right. Right. Right. That is my favorite. That video of We Are the World is, I mean, obviously everybody saw it when it came out. But in the light of history and the legacies that were in that room, watching Steve Perry coach Cyndi Lauper to sing her line, and you'd watch him behind her sitting on the, and it's like got to be one in the morning or something, two maybe, and we're all exhausted.

13:45And he's sitting there just so frustrated because it's a line he could have hit his first try. and well anything is his first try right but you know and she's struggling with with her line and he's like got his head in his hands and he's kind of hunched over like oh my god we're gonna be here all night it's funny there are some very funny moments michael came to me prince was supposed to do that gig and prince of course snubbed his nose and didn't show up yes which is so very prince So there's the space. There's that sort of semicircle of soloists at the end. And there's an open space. And Michael doesn't know what to do.

14:24And he comes to me and says, so who should stand in that place? And I said, Huey Lewis. And he said, okay. So he went and told Quincy. And they asked Huey if he would do it. And, of course, he jumped at the chance. Wow. But, you know, looking back now in a moment of legacy, what was... For me, I had just become a fan of Huey Lewis and the News, and I loved his voice. And I thought, this is going to be an important voice for rock and roll. I would love to know the politics of it. Because any time, like, who gets what? Who sings where? Who gets, quote unquote, more to do? You know, someone's going to be selling more records at that exact moment than someone else.

15:10And so all of that has to go into the equation of making the song. Well, I think it was entirely Michael and Quincy. Right. And I think they just sat down and talked it over. They may have had one or two friends in on it. But it really looked like Michael was in charge. And then Quincy was sort of the strong man in the background. Whatever Quincy said, everyone did. That was just the way it was. One of the things that kind of makes me laugh, and it's maybe just because I'm such a misanthrope, is Kim Carnes gets two words. She literally says, and we. No. And then everyone goes, come together as one.

15:46But it makes me laugh so hard because she's in a line. And people are throwing down. Yeah. And then it gets to her and she goes, and we. That's it. She'll point at that to her grandkids. That right there, that's me. That and we is me. That's me. That was at the top of Bruce. That's when Bruce was the biggest star in the history of music at that very moment. Yeah. That he pulled up in some old clunker rental or something. That's right. That's the legend. He pulls up late in some piece of shit rent-a-wreck, right? Yeah. And I wonder if he did that on purpose. For sure. It wasn't a car he happened to have handy.

16:28One of the things that people forget about everybody is that we're all showmen. And if we weren't showmen, we wouldn't have lasted as long as we had. He certainly wouldn't have signed up for the gig. For the gig in the first place. Right. And Bruce is one of the ultimate show. And that's part of the show. Yeah. Part of the show is the man of the people. Every man. Some did it better than others. Yes.

17:03So Steve Perry, you brought him up. Huge fan. He almost makes me like the San Francisco Giants. That's how much I like him. Yeah, just to hear that song. Just to hear that song and to go to the stadium when they play it. And he stands up and lip syncs to it. You know that, right? I've seen photographs, but I never knew that he actually did the whole song. He does it. It's amazing because he's a huge baseball fan. He's there all the time. And I went to a World Series game and that song comes up and you're like, oh, this is pretty cool. And then you see everybody's looking in one direction. And then there he is like leading, like Harry Carriott, the Chicago Cubs leading Take Me Out to the Ball Game.

17:42The Giants have Steve Perry doing. The mascot. Yeah. And it's, what a voice. Yeah. I recorded with Steve years ago. We did a duet that we wrote together called Don't Fight It. Great song. And I went up to San Francisco to record the vocal with Steve. So we're recording both of us live simultaneously As opposed to normally You know, he'll do his and then I'll do mine Or whatever And then between takes He would imitate other people And the guy was amazing He went into, of course He's going to do a perfect Sam Cooke We hear that in every one of his records But then he goes into Rod Stewart And he does a perfect Rod Stewart And God knows how many other voices he could do But he certainly found his own I mean, it's not like only a chameleon who can only be a chameleon.

18:30He was already imitating the classic rockers of our era and at the same time becoming one. You know, looking back in hindsight, I think that's amazing. My son, Cody, he went on the road with me as a crew guy. And about two or three shows in, after watching me in the audience, he goes, Dad, you're a rock star. He had no idea. He was like 17 years old and had no idea because you know how it is in your home life, in your real life. You're not a rock star. You're not nothing but dad. You're the guy who takes out the trash. Usually. Yes. For sure. Oh, yeah. That's so great. And then a couple years later, he said, Dad, you recorded with Steve Perry?

19:17Like, well, yeah, son. As a matter of fact. We hung out together. As a matter of fact, I did. You had great collaborations, though. You had great collaborations. Michael McDonald is my all-time favorite. I was just talking to somebody the other day. Have you ever seen the hilarious, it's not Saturday Night Live, it's SCTV sketch that's based around the recording of, this is so obscure, but it's so, do you know what I'm saying? Is it the Christopher Cross thing? Yes, it's amazing. Yeah, well, he runs from, because he was singing on everybody's record. Yeah. And imagine that the record, Warners, I think it was, would probably have freaked out saying, you're diluting, what do you call it?

19:53The brand? The brand. You're diluting the brand by singing on everybody else's records. But I was really grateful that he sang on mine. I think What a Fool Believes, which you wrote with him, it might, well, it is for sure my top five songs of all time. Man, the night we wrote that, we were up all night. When I first heard his voice was on the Doobie Brothers living on a fault line. As soon as I heard it, I went, this is going to be one of the great voices. And I was really fascinated by his style of writing. And I wanted to write with him. And I got a message that Michael was looking for me because he was looking for collaborators, too.

20:29And I'm unpacking the guitar out of the trunk of the car. And the door to his house is open. And I'm hearing him singing things through the door. And I hear him going, Bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum. Two branches of the same. Which ended up being the actual lyric. and I'm hearing this melody come out and then and he stops and my imagination keeps going and I'm imagining and so I knock on the door and we say hey man how you doing shake hands you know that thing you were just playing I think I know how the next part goes and you said just like that so we immediately sat down at the piano and I sang the thing I was hearing and he worked out the chords and was like, so we were writing together before we actually met.

21:25Well, it's a great melody, but also it's just a great concept. The concept of the song itself. He had that already in his hands. Really? He had to explain it to me about 16 times. It isn't. Well, people don't realize that that first line of the chorus is like three sentences long. Yes. What a fool believes he sees is the actual line. Not just what a fool believes. What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away. And what seems to be is always better than nothing. It's amazing. What a great fucking line. It's amazing. I know. So we finished... By the way, and so true. Exactly.

22:05Universal truth. Yeah. And it uses his favorite word, fool. Which if you listen to his early work, There's the word fool in every song. Really? Yeah, because he loved the shape of it. That's his thing. And it was brilliant. And we finished it three in the morning or so. And I went home and listened to it the rest of the night at my own house. I was just laughing going, God, this is a big fish. When music survives like that and more than survives, it becomes an iconic thing. It always has a place in your life. And for me, that song, I'll always be, and I don't mean to age you, but I will always be.

22:40You can do that effortlessly. Okay, here we go. I will be 15 years old, and it's my very first network television show. It filmed in front of a live audience. And as the audience is filling in, I know the audience is coming because they put in the walk-in music, and the first song is What a Fool Believes. And I'm like, man, my career is maybe happening. At 15. At 15. God. So we, you know, we've kind of had, I mean, well, listen, it's like the bad cliche and it's the soundtrack of your life, which is the point of your tour. It's the songs of movies. Yeah. Which is what you're doing now. Yeah, I finally decided to put them all together and put them in the show.

23:19And it's an interesting show for me in that way, because it's not as emotionally centered as it is movie centered. and what it ends up being though is a pretty rock show and I haven't really done a straight ahead rock and roll show in a long time because I've got a lot of acoustic guitar material from the early days and ballads and things like that but I lean very heavily on there's only one movie that I wrote for which was the Tigger movie that I wrote with the Sherman Brothers the Sherman Brothers go way back in Disney Legacy and they wrote Winnie the Pooh Winnie the Pooh fuzzy little coming up And they even wrote earlier stuff, too.

23:59But simultaneously, or almost simultaneously with that, I wrote my Winnie the Pooh song. You wrote it in high school? I wrote it as a senior in high school, yeah. I was supposed to be studying for finals, and instead I wrote the song about leaving my childhood behind. Stuff that happened. I wrote Danny's song in high school, too, for my brother Danny. It's from a very innocent place, you know. He's just kind of sitting on my bed, playing chords and hypnotizing myself. That's the, not really, really, but I mean, in that way where you get so deep into a melody and so deep into a vibe, that's all there is.

24:35And in that moment, you can be there for six hours and not know it. But a woman working for Disney decided to put me and the Sherman brothers together because those two circles had never been connected. And her name was Bambi. Oh, my God. You can't make it up. How Disney can it get? Yeah, you can't make that up. And the Lullaby album, again, oh my God, I put my second son to bed to that album every night. Every night. Yeah, it works. Oh, it's so good. Thank you. And, you know, the parents usually go to sleep before the child. Yeah, and I listened to it last night and it put me, you know. Right back there.