Marc Maron: Good Talker

0:00I rarely get nervous having guests, but I was super nervous to have you on because you're I want you to like me. I like you.

0:21Hey, everybody. Welcome to Literally. I rarely get nervous or have performance anxiety. It's not around the bedroom, which sometimes I have. I'm not going to lie. but I have it today because my guest is Mark Maron who is on the Mount Rushmore of podcasters I did his podcast it's fantastic it's probably one of the first podcasts that I ever was aware of and now in a full circle moment in life he's on my podcast so I'm super excited to talk to him he's got a great show with Owen Wilson called Stick it's on Apple TV right now and he's got the Bruce Springsteen movie coming out and he's ending his podcast after i think like some ridiculous number 1600 episodes anyway let's get to it with mark merrick

1:21i'm with i mean i just i gotta i gotta bow down to the man thank you the man who created the whole thing. I mean, how do you feel that I have a podcast? You're like, you fucking interloper. Is it like me when I look at Zac Efron? Sure. I think I don't have any resentment towards you, Rob. I mean, you know, everyone's got to do what they got to do to survive. Right. Yeah. You got to grind, man. You got to do what you got to do. And also, you know, I always knew from the beginning that, you know, this was going to be a a relatively, if not totally democratic medium. I mean, it doesn't take much for anyone to do one of these.

2:03And if you want to give it a go, you give it a go. And everybody brings their own thing to it. I have to say that what I brought to it is probably, you know, better than what you're doing. But I, but I don't mean that in a negative way. No, I mean, listen, there's no, I tell you what, though, I don't, I do not put people with class five cat allergies at risk. that's yeah i'm i'm way like i'm way more dude your cat setup yeah is next level well i mean are you you didn't have an allergy though did you no i don't otherwise believe me i wouldn't have come to your house i was like you were one of the first podcasts ever went on and they're like no no you go to his house i'm like wait what what like they're like i'll never forget they're like uh rob barack obama yeah to his house yeah well that was the weird it was a weird time though because when you did it, I had not set up this outdoor space yet because they were working on the building.

2:59So you were literally upstairs in my house. There was like a period there where I set up in the office room in my house and it was kind of like, it was really kind of a makeshift situation. So yeah, you were literally in the house. There was only a few people that did that. I think you and Letterman, David Lee Roth, I remember, but in the house. Yeah. I thought like this could, this is, you know, that could be an ax murder. It was very, I mean, you know, that that's extreme. I mean, there were things that could go wrong, but I think we were safe. We were safe. And it was, I mean, what, what is your diagnosis of the current state of podcasting?

3:40Well, look, you know, for me, um, at the beginning, I don't, when I think about why I got into it. It was never a business. It was something that was keeping me afloat, you know, emotionally, psychologically. I think not so much professionally, but just staying engaged. It was at a low point in my life. So, you know, what I was bringing to it or what I sort of, how I developed my thing was like an earnest and very sort of desperate need to connect with people in my world. And I think that provided something of a template for some people. And then what happened very quickly was that everybody assumed that it was easy.

4:24And it's not. And there's no telling why somebody resonates on these mics. You know, like with someone like you, when you've been around a long time and you bring a certain amount of celebrity to it and people know you already. That's something. But the current state of it is there's too many people just blathering on into the ether. And it's made quite a bit of a kind of a glut. So I do think still that people can surface and find their place. But I think because everyone thought it was easy that, you know, there's just, you know, people at some point have to shut up, Rob. They do. It's like people who open restaurants because they love food.

5:09Sure. Or they think it's going to be fun. Yeah. I mean, what is fun is connecting. That is the fun part. That's totally the fun part. That's the only reason you ever open a restaurant. No, I love food, but I know enough to know that I don't know anything about a restaurant. How many people have approached you in your celebrity life and like, hey, you want to be part of this on the ground floor? It's going to be a hot steakhouse. I'll never forget the Mulholland Cafe. By the way, so I think it's still, is that the greatest name? And it was like, Patrick Swayze is the lead investor. I'm like, the culinary genius, Patrick Swayze?

5:47I'm in. I'm in. I am in. I am so in. Yeah, you're right. But I love what you love about doing this because it's, first of all, as you know, the long form interview had been dead for a long time. It's not anymore because everybody's doing a podcast, but, you know, it used to be, you do the Playboy interview in Playboy or. Right. There were a couple, there were a couple of like, you know, Tom Snyder way, way, way back in the day, or there were, you know, Dick Cavett and people like that. But, but. Even those were, were still limited to, you know, television time, right? I knew the guy, I interviewed the guy that used to do all those, those old Playboy profiles, those Playboy interviews.

6:32Really? And now I'm like, oh, the poor guy, I'm spacing his name. But he did a ton of them. And he would spend weeks, like, you know, he'd go live with Marlon Brando. He'd go to the island. You know, he was, you know, he would get into these people's lives for days and weeks just to get that one interview that showed up in Playboy. But I think if I'm thinking of, like, somebody who did this, it was probably Studs Terkel, who did a lot of, and they're available on - Oh, they're great. His collection of interviews. By the way, you know what they're really great for? As an actor, I've used it as a tool to build characters because he's talking to amazing, amazing characters.

7:15Oh, wow. Yeah, I never thought of that. Yeah, but you're right. It was dead for a while, but it was always to me what was kind of interesting is that this medium provides you the time. Some people take way too much of it. I mean, like, I think an hour is good. Oh. Three is a bit much. I think, yeah, it's like, well, it can be what it wants to be. And if you're an ed. That's it. And if you're an ed. I was very excited when people started doing full radio theater type of productions. Like, you know, to be part of something at the beginning, and I wasn't the first podcaster. And there's people that'll argue that there were podcasts long before some of the more popular ones, but they didn't really go out anywhere.

7:54but I was definitely part of the popularization of the medium. But when people really started to do like full radio theater stuff or crime stuff, like it really did become an amazing outlet for very creative people in the audio space. I don't know. I never did video because I, and it was a benefit because, you know, people would come over and they wouldn't have to think about that. They didn't have to bring makeup people and, you know, so it was very easy to disarm them, you know? Well, it's funny. even when I started four years ago, whatever. Yeah. They were like, I was like, I need to know about the blocking and tackling of this business, like with the nuts and bolts of how to do it.

8:34They're like, well, it's really, I said, should we have video? And they're like, no, no. Cause then, you know, a lot of the female stars. That's right. You know, and now of course you have to have video. Right. And now we're back to like, I'm having a bad hair day, hence the hat. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, you got to do what you got to do. I think audio provides a more intimate experience for people taking it in, to be honest with you. And I think that you have a little more control over stuff. But I do still think that audio is the most intimate medium you can really work in. Let me ask you this, because here's the other thing.

9:17They're like, you got to have everybody in studio with you. because those are the ones that index, but it's two cameras cutting to each other. You're like, I don't understand. How do they really, I don't get it. And it's ideal if you were able to do it. You were like, you're coming here, you're not doing it. Rogan does the same thing, but like, I'm all over the world. I'm working on different, the only way I can do this is to be remote a lot of the time. I understand that. And we, you know, I believe it's true that it's better if you're face to face with the person because moments can happen that, you know, transcend kind of mediated interaction.

10:00Like when you're on a screen, there's a lack of pause. There's a there's sort of an immediate reaction that becomes readable to the people in the room and then felt by the people outside the room. I'm a big supporter of the in-person interview. And the only time we didn't do that was during COVID. And we really had to figure out a way to make it as intimate as possible. But it worked out. I definitely got some interviews I wouldn't have gotten otherwise during that time. But look, you got to do what you got to do. And I think you can still get a pretty good interview like this. Well, that remains to be seen.

10:38But I think so far, I think it's going well. It's easier to get distracted like this. Well, it is. I'm sorry. Hang on just one second. Yeah. Yeah, uh-huh. Yeah. Hold on, me too. I'm just going to go to the bathroom. Try to keep it going. Yeah, I'm just going to open some water.

11:05But Nat, I mean, you have a new, I mean, we'll get into all the new stuff you've gone. I want to talk about stick, by the way, because I don't know if you see the shirt I have on is Augusta National. I'm a huge golf fan. Owen Wilson, I love him. He's great. Have you worked with him? No, I just have run into him a couple of times and he's always been just hilarious and smart and great. Sweet guy. Yeah, and he's a real golfer. Yeah, he's definitely locked into it more. He comes from a golf family. I know. Like his brothers are big golfers. Oh, that's right. It's Luke who's the real golfer. Luke and the older brother, I think.

11:40What's his name? Andrew, maybe? Yeah, the two other brothers are real golfers, and his old man was a golfer. And he was okay at it, but he didn't lock in heavy until he got this gig. And, yeah, he's pretty good. I mean, it was funny because any second of downtime on set, and we were on golf courses all the time, he was just out hitting. Oh, my God. Just out doing it. What a dream. Yeah, you would love it. Me, like, I didn't know anything about golf going in. Nothing. Yeah, there you go. There's the big story. That's the scoop. Marin doesn't know anything about golf and he's in a golf show. Marin, not a method actor.

12:22You did not go on tour for six months. Well, I did do, you know, it was interesting, Rob, is that, you know, they really were looking for a guy who was like sensitive, but grumpy. And I thought like, well, I'm gonna, I'll have to really kind of dig deep for that. Yeah, exactly. And I have to figure out where that's gonna come from in me. But I did, I did, I think the relationship was very specific because I said to them, I said, look, I don't, I get golf, you know, I can watch it. I do not know the nuances of golf. I don't play golf. And, but I have friends who play. And over the years, I've grown to appreciate why it's compelling and why people love it.

13:01But I don't know how to play golf. So you might want to go find another actor. and they were like, you don't need to. And you don't need to know. And I'm like, but it'd probably be helpful. So maybe go find somebody else. So, but they kept coming. And they were like, okay, grumpy, check. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. They were like, this is the guy. And I'm like, I don't know how that is true. But the truth is, is that that relationship between a caddy and a golfer is fundamentally some sort of strange marriage. It's a very sort of intentionally codependent dynamic. you know you're in service of you know it's a group effort but you are in service of the golfer and you are you know his his higher self in a way on some level or at least a a one that checks his you know like if there's a question you know it's uh you know you got to try to get on the same page and and find a middle way caddies make they make it um whenever you get a caddy that has that thing, that personality, that sort of horse whisperer, Yoda speak with great stories.

14:11Yeah. It just, it elevates the experience to a whole other level. Yeah, and I definitely did some research in that. And I definitely learned the language of golf and learned how to understand the game. But I knew fundamentally what this was about was about a couple of guys who have been through some very hard times together and individually. There was a lot of weight to the emotional dynamic between these guys. They'd both had sort of sadness and tragedy in their life and they've kind of weathered it as a friendship because they hadn't been on the course together professionally for 20 years because Price, Owen's character, had a very sort of public and dramatic meltdown and lost his card and kind of went into a spiral and gave up on life in a lot of ways.

15:04And I kind of went into the woods and kind of lived my life. And then the only thing that was really holding us together outside of friendship is occasionally Price would need money and we'd go do this golf hustle at bars where I'd call him out and put on this whole grift of this whole con job of defying him to take a putt and get bets on it, knowing he would blow it. But it was really about a friendship that had weathered a lot and a deep sort of love for each other that was kind of, you know, it wasn't fragile, but it had definitely taken some hits, you know. I'm so down for this. I cannot wait.

15:45I think you'll love it. I mean, already I can tell I'm going to love it. And so having shot on golf courses, as you did. Yeah. It's kind of isn't the thing where you could only shoot on Mondays and that kind of stuff. where, cause it's closed or did you have one that was, how did you shoot the golf? Cause usually it's really hard. I think they did a really good job with it. You know, so like, I'm not privy to how they pulled it off cause as a supporting character, you're mostly just trying to figure out how not to go crazy in your trailer. But, but we were in Vancouver and we shot on several different courses and we were not beholden to, that I knew of to whether it was open or it wasn't open.

16:24And they were obviously paying to play. You know, there were time zones we could work in. And some other, on a couple of courses, I think another part of the course may have been open. But we were in many different places because we had to create the illusion, you know, that we started in Indiana and then we're going across the country. So we had to do different courses. Yeah. And the way they shot the golf, it was pretty interesting because, you know, Owen doesn't have to play much, if any, in the show. But the kid, you know, has to, that was my biggest question going into it. It's like, where are you going to find a kid that can play this well?

17:01I mean, this kid's supposed to be a prodigy. Yeah. And he's 17, supposedly. Yeah. And he's a great actor, that Peter. You know, he's great. And what they did was they had pro golf consultants there and they had real pros there. They found a guy up there that was, you know, Peter's size and was like an amazing golfer. and so in a lot of it i think you're not going to notice it when you watch it they did that you know the green dots on the face so they could put peter's face on his face but i think in form i think peter got very good at it but i think when it comes down to because you got to figure that this this show is going to appeal to golfers and they're going to know if it's bullshit you know because that's all they think about his swing it's all we think about i've become that guy, that horrible, like in between any free moment, I'm fake swinging while I'm waiting for my wife to finish shopping somewhere and I'm pulling my hair out.

18:00I'm just working on my takeaway or something. I, which I always thought was so lame. But does it bring you in that moment though? I mean, because I think the benefit of golf, once you walk into it as sort of a spiritual endeavor, like even when you're just sitting there waiting for your wife and you're kind of focusing on your hands and your swing. Do you go into that Zen place? Yes, 100%. That's why I love, I hate practicing anything. I love practicing golf. I could be, you know who I run into all the time and you meet great people is Jimmy Connors. Oh, wow, yeah. Jimmy Connors and I have members of the same place and he's there every day just like me.

18:38And I said, what is it? How do you and why do you practice so much? He goes, I just love it. I just shut everything out. It's just Zen, it's just me. and it doesn't feel like practice. It just feels like a meditation. So it's kind of challenging yourself and you're not really competing other than relative to your own sort of score, right? Right. And your own sort of sense of improvement. And I guess that it's pretty easy with golf to let go of the idea that you're ever gonna be really that good. Yes. Well, what's the thing they say in the recovery program. It's the great, it's the, we may one day drink as normal people, whatever that is like.

19:21Yeah, yeah, yeah. But this, golf says we have the delusion that we may one day golf as professionals and we will not. Do you have that? Yes, I do. No, I don't, not that I'm going to be a professional, but I'm like. But you'll have game. You'll be able to. Oh, I just want to get better and better and better and better. I'm like, and I think that I should be playing like people who play professionally. Like, right. Like I'll go, why, why, how come I can't make this show? Well, they hit thousands of balls a day and you're an actor and you have other things you're doing. You have a wife. That's the weird thing about like being on the set and, and yeah, and Taylor made sent me a full set of clubs and balls and they're like, get going.

20:07So I'm ready to go. You have, wait, so you haven't really taken that leap yet. I haven't. Well, I will relax. Yeah, I gotta get someone to, I gotta go. And you're in, Rob. Dude, you're in recovery. This is the, it's the most addicting. It's, you chase the Jones, man. Yeah, I know, but I totally understand that, that you have that one amazing shot and then for the rest of your life, you try to get that back. I understand the addiction element of it. I just don't know as me if I have the patience to be bad for as long as I will be bad. Right. That's a very astute, very astute. You don't need any skill set to do some blow.

20:57That's true. God knows. Or take a drink or whatever. And, you know, I'm a comic by trade. You know, when you do bad pretty quickly and, you know, the path to making it better is retooling the joke. But the idea, like, I get frustrated pretty easy. I don't have the patience and I know that golf may give me the gift of that. Yes. And maybe that's true. I'm ready to go. I have to be honest in telling you that what stops me from doing almost anything is the fact that, like, if I want to start playing golf, here are the obstacles. Oh, well, then I got to drive to the place. And what, do I have to pay to get in?

21:39How far is it? Is there parking? Like the obstacles I set up for myself before I get a ball on the tee are all sort of dumb practical things that have to do with making the time. You're not wrong. You're not wrong about that. What, tell me about the new special. It's August, HBO, right? August 1st. Well, yeah, yeah. I mean, this was - You have like 15, is this your 15th? I think this is my sixth televised special, you know, and I've done a couple of half hour ones and about four or five albums. This is my second special with HBO. I think I did, wow, three with Netflix and then one with Epix, which I don't even know if it exists anymore.

22:27But HBO is great. You did that one with the CW back in the day. Oh, yes. CW, that was a big one. Yeah, the big, yeah, right at the beginning when I was doing clean comedy. That never happened. This new special, Rob, I think is pretty, like the last few I've done, I think are as good as I can be. Like that's one thing. That's another thing. Like with acting, and I'm sure you feel this to some degree, that whatever your chosen profession is, you know, if it's not golf, is that you do reach a point where you have complete control over your particular talent and what you can do. Yes. And, you know, as you get older, there's a lot to be.

23:04It's a good feeling to do something that you've worked your whole life at and then walk away from it going like, well, that was pretty much the best I could do. At this point, and in terms of everything I've been through and getting to this place, I'm operating at my full capacity. capacity. What do you, what do you, I'm so interested in this. Do you feel, was there an aha moment for you? Was it, do you feel like you gradually got there or were there stages in it? Well, look with acting, like I know, like to go back to that, you know, because I come to acting much later, you know, it was not, you know, when I was starting out as a comic, the idea was that you would, you know, you would eventually, you know, get a show built around you.

23:49And back in the 90s, they were throwing money around to develop comics because they saw them a certain way. We had a built-in voice and, you know, you get a few bucks and they set you up with some writers and you try to build a show around what they think your personality is because that was the model, I think, from Roseanne and Ray and Brett Butler and Drew Carey on and on. Sure. Yeah. But so I had a few of those deals early on, but I was never the guy they thought I was, and I'm not sure I knew who I was, but for acting, just to explore the difference, it was something I always wanted to do.

24:27You know, I trained a little bit in college and here and there, and I did a small part in Almost Famous for Cameron Crowe, and I thought I was going to take off from there, but nothing really happened. I didn't have what it took to deal with the rejection of going in on these auditions for TV shows with bad jokes. There were just, I knew there were just a whole bunch of guys who could do it much better than me because they knew the game. I did not. So with acting, where I'm at now in comparison to comedy, is that I have to figure out whether or not every time I take a job as an actor, it really is about like, do I even like doing this?

25:03Is that odd? I mean, it's something you want to do. And I think I have an innate ability to be present and listen. And over time, having done my own show on IFC for four years, I knew that I would learn how to be on set. I knew that I would suck for, you know, a couple seasons, but no one was watching it really. So it was really a training ground. And now I've done a couple of bigger roles and I get it. And now I have to figure out a way to really sort of make it interesting and engage in whatever that craft is that makes it satisfying versus, you know, how much time you're waiting around for them to set up who the fuck even knows what.

25:42Yes. that's that's the old thing of uh i get i don't get paid to act i get paid to wait that's yeah and it's weird i i don't even know you've been doing it your whole life are you does it always get to a point where you're in the trailer and you eventually go what are they even doing it's always that way i mean and that's why you pick up the ukulele or you know whatever the fuck you're you're you know i mean that's yeah that's why actors always drink yeah sit there Yeah, I don't know how those guys, when you hear those stories about dudes who acted like, you know, after three-day benders and stuff, I imagine you had a little of that in your life, but how do you even function?

26:18Is it that much of a con job that you can go out there shit-faced and still pull off the scene? Well, some people, it helps them get honest. Oh, yeah, I guess that's true. Right? Yeah, it relaxes something. It relaxes something, you know, it gets honest. Okay, the Springsteen movie, I'm a huge Springsteen fan. You're in it. Oh, that was funny. Okay, so going back, I'll come around to that. So with acting, I'm still in a learning curve, right? With stand-up, you know, that's, it's something, the reason I love it and the reason that it is the right form for me is that I'm not sure I ever got into it to be an entertainer.

26:58I really thought that I had something to say and I wanted to be heard and I wanted to be seen and I wanted to figure out who I was, you know, in this particular craft, stand-up. And at the point I'm at now, like I have enough control over it and enough fearlessness that like I can start working within it. Like I spent about a year and a half working on the material that's going to be in the special. Like I toured it, I built it, I finessed it. And over time, the reason that I can see the arc of growth is that, you know, once you learn how to do something, how do you make it, keep it interesting for yourself and challenge yourself and challenge the audience to a certain degree?

27:38with what you're doing. And I'm at this point now, about maybe five or six years ago, it was late in the career where, you know, I think you spend a lot of time as a standup pretending to be fearless, you know, pretending like you're not afraid. So about 80 % of your energy goes into acting like, you know, this is no problem. And then at some point it just goes away because part of you lives up there. You know, you start to get to a point where you get on stage and you're like, well, this is where I live. I, you know, I have complete control of this thing and I got the chops, I'm good at it, I got the stuff.