Simon Sinek: Light Up a Room

27:42Behind the desk people. It's the future, man. It's the future. Yeah, it's amazing. Like, re-skill. And it's like, oh, you know, the pendulum does swing and now what are you going to do? So I think that the, I think hard skills, We talked about this a little bit, which is hard skills, like learning how to do a thing, use your hands, use your brain, I think is a thing. But also I think human skills. That's the thing I say. I think we need to double down on human skills, quite frankly. I was talking to someone who, about their summer internships and who they hired. And it was sort of Silicon Valley-esque.

28:15And he was like, we didn't hire any of the brainy nerds. Enough of them. We hired only people who lit up a room. Oh, I love that.

28:39I met the guy who ran the human space part of NASA, like basically ran the astronaut program. And so I asked him, what's the number one quality you look for when you let somebody into the astronaut corps. And he says, they have to be nice. Right? No, of course, they have to be smart and all the rest of it. But number one was nice because they're going to be in a space station with a small group of people in a confined space for six months, seven months, eight months. And if you're not nice, things will break and things will go horribly, horribly wrong. You have to be a nice person. And if you've ever met astronauts, they're all really nice.

29:18They're really nice. They're also unflappable and they don't get, you know, they don't get shaken under pressure. But at the end of the day, they're just nice because they have to be. And I thought that was really interesting. That is the human element, not the intelligence, not the engineering skill. The human element becomes... Was number one. EQ, as they say, right? EQ is number one. Number one. Number one. And of course, the other things are important, but not more important than the EQ. So if you're the best engineer and you're not a nice person, you don't get picked to go into the space station.

29:51Okay, so where do you see higher learning going when the knowledge of the ages is right here? And so it's what? It's about rote memorization? That's it? It's a good question. I think we also misunderstand the full purpose for higher education, right? It's a halfway house to independence for some kids, right? I would say all of them. For a lot of kids. you know well some kids you know they get a they they have to they're forced to grow up fast unfortunately but i think for most of us you know what i learned at college i don't think except for me studying a bit of anthropology which has benefited me and it's basically my career now the thing that i learned in college was how to be independent how to and i'm talking basic stuff like how to do my own laundry yeah no 100 uh like i had to keep my own room clean you know like i I didn't have my mom yelling at me to clean it.

30:47Like I had to do it. I had to motivate to do it. I had to be responsible for my own schedule. I made my own schedule. I chose my own classes and I had to show up. I had to, nobody was nagging me or bugging me. And so it's a great entry level way. It's a great halfway house. And you learn conflict resolution and you learn to deal with your own stuff and you learn to ask difficult questions. And it's the first time ever you can like fight with a professor. You can't fight with your high school teacher. You're always wrong because they know, just do the work. But now you're dealing in ideas and you can have an argument, a debate with somebody with a PhD at the end of their name, and you can make a legitimate argument as to why you think that they're wrong.

31:28And it's scholarly. And I think that was a great way to enter adulthood because I learned some very important adult skills. And I think when we think about college and the whole anti-college movement, of which It's quite large. You know, they also forget that Zuckerberg found, you know, started Facebook at college and then he quit. He didn't quit and then start Facebook, for example. But the whole anti-college movement, they're only thinking about it in terms of academics. They're only thinking about it in terms of learning. And they're completely neglecting all the other things that we're supposed to learn in college instead of being thrown into the deep end, which is a career.

32:06Okay, but you don't need to go into student debt for the rest of your life to learn those things. And the Ivy League doesn't mean jack shit. I agree with that. And that... The Ivy League is also different because it's more of a network than anything else. They all help each other out. It's a club, of which I'm not a part of. But... I agree with you, but that's not the problem with higher education. That's the problem with how we fund higher education. And if most of these universities were run like efficient businesses, they would do better. They're run badly. There's no reason that education should have to cost this much.

32:46I don't know what they're doing with that money. And their endowments are through the roof in some of these schools, especially the Ivy League. Yeah. You know, which is, it seems like they're just investment funds and they seem, that seems to be the priority more than the education. So that's a question of how they run the universities, not a question of whether a university education has value. Those aren't the same thing. But I agree. But interconnected. But interconnected, for sure. And there's now a movement where kids are going to community college first and then transferring after two years just to save money.

33:17I think that's fascinating, too. And so I think there's a huge opportunity for community colleges to up their game and offer the human skills that a kid would come with their plan is, I'm going to go to community college for two years and transfer to the school that gets me the network. But then once they're there, discover that they're learning so much that they end up staying. they end up staying. That's a really, I think it's an opportunity for community colleges because people are choosing them first even if they're overqualified academically. And so, it's also about how you, it's the same thing you were talking about with bricks and mortar.

33:47It doesn't, it didn't, it doesn't go away but there are relationships to them kind of change. Yeah, yeah. You know, you just go, well, I'll go to Wright State University and shout out to Wright State. That's right. The only one I could think of. It's in Dayton before I grew up. You didn't go to college, right? No. You just went straight into the career. Right, because I had the opportunity to. Was the opportunity an accident? Or was it like... No, no, I was auditioning. You were auditioning like crazy. I wanted to be an actor since I was eight years old. Okay. And I did everything I could to be a pro.

34:26And it wasn't even my first role, but it was my first movie. So The Outsiders with Coppola. Oh, right. I was 17. I forgot that you were in that. I was 17. That's a good film. It's stood the test so far. Yeah. Oh, I should rewatch that. It's been a long time. Yeah. And it's great because every, it's now taught, the book is taught in every seventh grade curriculum pretty much across the country. So people have to, they read the book and then watch the movie. So every year, there's a new group of seventh graders. They're like, oh, who's that skinny kid with the towel over him? That'd be me. It's cool.

35:03And the nice smile. It introduces you to a new audience. That's cool. Which is really super cool. That's super cool. So you sound very, my mom was an English teacher and I'm getting a vocabulary word that my mom would have said to me. Sanguine? Yeah. Right? Sanguine, yeah. Sanguine? Is that how you say it? Yeah, you're very sanguine, aren't you? About AI. I'm balanced about it. I'm excited. Super balanced. Yeah, I'm excited for the stuff that I find exciting. I'm nervous for the stuff that I think we should be concerned about. I'm open to the things that there are things that I cannot predict that will make my life better.

35:43And there I'm open to the fact that there are things that I cannot predict that will make our lives worse. Kind of like the internet. Like some of it was amazing. Some of it's awful. Some of it we predicted and some of it we didn't. And I think that's the case of all technologies. And, you know, we don't fully know how our work will be, how AI will fully get used. The population will figure it out more than the eggheads. They will say, you can use it for this. And people are like, great. And they'll find 50 other uses. So I find that interesting. The unpredictable. So I'm balanced. I think we should be concerned where concern is necessary.

36:23And we should be excited where we're excited. I think to be all or nothing about it, to be fully against or fully for it. What about just conceptually the notion that as it learns, it eventually becomes its own sentient thing. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, I mean... Which now is... I mean, to hear everybody talk, that is literally just a mathematical matter of time fact. The interruption in that, in all of that, and I consider this a danger, is all of the companies who are making it are for-profit companies, right? Open AI didn't start that way, but they've gone that way. And all of the companies that are making online friends, you know, AI friends and AI companions and AI, all of this, they're all for-profit.

37:14And we saw what happened with social media. We saw what happened with Facebook. We saw what happened to all of these organizations where they invented things like the infinite scroll. They invented ways to make us stay on for longer, not because we want to, but because it's good for their business model and it's good for their ad model. And so that's exactly the same that's going to happen. They're going to pioneer ways to make us stay on longer because it's in their interest, not ours. And we're already starting to see some of the unpredictable effects where these affirmation machines, because that's what they are, they're affirmation machines because who wants to stay on something that insults you and tells you you're wrong, right?

37:51And I just heard of a true story. Friend of a friend, I just learned this the other day, got divorced because the AI said she should. Now, I'm sure there were problems and she went down a rabbit hole of he did this and he did that and how can he put up with... But it was her, the machine affirmed her side of the story like a bad best friend or a good best friend, depending on your point of view, to the point where she followed the AI's advice and divorced the guy. And there's nothing he could say. He's like, but, but, but I will, you know, nope, the machine told me that I am right and this marriage is over.

38:27And we already know how it's driving people, young people, again, it's in them, but it's encouraging them to suicide, you know? And so I think that anytime there's a financial model involved, we should be cynical. And I mean that for everything. I mean that for people who sell, you know, supplements. Like, if somebody has a vested interest in whatever their pitch is, it doesn't mean they're wrong. It doesn't mean that it's bad. It just means be aware that there's a vested interest, that there's a conflict of interest in whatever their recommendation is. That's a really salient point that I think we all know, but we forget.

39:08We forget it all the time. Yeah. Yeah, because, because, and because these things are, you know, it's like dealing with AI and dealing with social media, it's like peddling in, in, in, in meth, you know, it's, it's like, or, or maybe something that has benefits. Maybe it's like, uh, meth that's socially acceptable. Cocaine. Socially acceptable meth. Whatever it is. It's, it's, it's, it's, yeah, it's something that has benefits. Like you can stay up all night studying. Exactly. You know, it's like. Thank you. There you go. I've been waiting for somebody to say, tell me the benefits I know are there.

39:45Exactly. So the point is, they're all peddling in drugs that have benefits, but they also have addictive qualities. And I think they... Anyway. It's a thing. It's a thing. Because my wife, Cheryl, who you know and love like I do, is... Not like you do, but... She's super in my grill about my time on TikTok. Are you on TikTok? Yeah. And I kind of love it. It's incredible. That's why I had to turn it off. Okay. All right. As usual, you're out on the horizon. Oh, no, no. I was really aware. Report back to me in the cave. What have you seen? Oh, no, no. TikTok is incredible. That algorithm is absolutely astonishing.

40:29It knows things that I don't even know that I want. And then I realize it's right. Oh, no, no, no, no. I did the TikTok thing because I like to try everything that's in the zeitgeist. And I was like, you know what? I'm in bed a little early. You know what? I'm going to make myself tired. I'm going to watch TikTok for 15 minutes and then turn out the lights. Two and a half hours later, I'm turning it off because I'm falling asleep. I know. It is astonishing. But it scared me so much because I disappeared for hours on that thing. It's astonishing. She's right. And then when you add to it, what do I hate most about life?

41:09boredom. So what is the instant boredom killer? TikTok. Addiction. An addiction. I mean, you said it yourself. You said it yourself. You said every bad thing you've ever done in your life, you did to escape boredom. So you've replaced alcohol with TikTok. Oh my God. Is this the wrong podcast for that? At least we're on home turf. Oh my God. You can edit it out. What have you... You get to edit this one. No, this is exactly what we want. God damn. Well, you know what it is? It's also that thing of... And this is why you're you, is... I think when people are vaguely aware of something they need to do, they just need the right person at the right time to tell them.

41:59And you, sir, may have been that person. All you have to do is delete the app. You won't miss it. The minute I deleted it, I never craved it. Really? Yeah. Because it's there. So even like I have to be on Instagram for work, but I found myself on Instagram too much. So what I did was I hid it. You know, you can hide things off your home screen. So I hid Instagram so it doesn't show up anywhere. And I made it that it doesn't show up in my search. It doesn't suggest it in the search. Also, you get the setting. The only way I can get to Instagram is if I type a search for Instagram and make the app pop up.

42:31And because I don't do it. And so what I have found is I actually don't check it that often because I don't see it and just click on it. But like me, I don't need to do it. Yeah, I kind of do. Okay, so there's a component of work. I have to be on it. Yeah, so you just farm it out. You just don't participate in the incoming. It's only the outgoing. On Instagram or TikTok? No, no, no. I go on Instagram. I can go down on Instagram. And you never had any TikTok presence? yourself. No, no, I'm on TikTok. You are? Okay, so how do you do that? It doesn't mean I use the app. I make stuff for TikTok, but I don't doom scroll on TikTok.

43:16I don't use TikTok for my own enjoyment. I'm not entertained by TikTok. But by the way, and this is not a slight on their product. Their product is astonishing and brilliant. And the people who make stuff for TikTok, are talented. We saw that during COVID. Like, my God, people are funny. But by the way, and talented and smart. Those people are way more entertaining than anything coming out of Hollywood. Way more entertaining. Absolutely. I'll watch TikTok and laugh way more than watching a comedy. There's a technology, I think it's called Block or Brick. It's a little black thing, like a big square thing.

43:52They gave, they sent me one and we used it with my niece and nephew. It's actually brilliant. I think it's called Block or Brick. and basically you tap your phone on it and it disables all the apps you tell it to disable until you tap it again. So, exactly. So, not to treat you like a child, but... No, no, treat me like a child. Please. But your wife can hide the brick. How many brownie points do you think I get? If I know I'm going to do it. Right. I know I'm going to hide my TikTok app. if I let her do it. No, no. If you use this brick thing, you tap your phone on it and it disables TikTok. It's on your phone, but it's disabled.

44:34You cannot access it. There's no setting that you can go to to unlock it. It is locked until you tap the brick again. Right? But the thing is, you don't know where the brick is because Cheryl put it in a safe and didn't tell you the password. I love this. So you can have it, but it's regulated. And if you can't self-regulate, I think the bigger challenge or the bigger opportunity is to learn to enjoy boredom. Okay. Like, do you meditate? Yes. And by the way, I'm perfectly good at my own company. Like sitting out and like looking at the stars, the fire pit. By the way, this is the pot calling the kettle black.

45:11I'm not so great with boredom either. And I'm, I'm plenty. Do you meditate? I meditate. I meditate-ish. Yeah. I'm, I go through phases. Same. But I, you know, I also, don't like being bored and like to fill space. And I've had to learn to embrace boredom to some degree. I'm not good at it. Well, how about, here's an early memory. I remember vividly, and you know, memories are not the best mirrors of what actually happened. But my memory is that my mom would leave me in the car for like an hour while she would shop. and there's nothing to do. Like we were coming back from the pool or wherever it was in the summer and she's like, I'm just gonna stop and get some stuff.

46:03Siblings? Just you? Just me. Okay. No radio. Yeah. I didn't bring a book. Right. I'm just sitting in that car. Right. And I have this memory of it and it's probably why I don't like boredom. But like you're forced to deal with it. Like that never, or how about just like, not even that kind of. Was there anxiety associated with it? Or did you just like, all right, see you in a minute. No, no anxiety. Okay. Do you have an active imagination? Yes. And that's probably why I got it. Just talk about like the trips you'd take. We're driving to Mount Rushmore this summer. Like I had a book and I read the book.

46:48And then if the book was sent on, that's it. There's nothing else to do. Count license plates. Yeah. no one's doing it. So you think I have a problem with boredom. What about the kids today? Why aren't the kids today? I've seen them. I've seen them at Chuck E. Cheese. There's data. And they've got the dancing cheese and then they've got their screens. There's data that shows that kids who have more toys have worse imaginations and kids who have fewer toys have better imaginations. Of course. Right? And so, you know, the irony is, is the more we give kids, the more we're screwing them up. Where, you know, So, you know, we've both had the opportunity to challenge, we've both had the opportunity to travel around the world and see, you know, go to developing nations.

47:29And you see kids that have nothing. They've got a stick and a tire. And they're smiling and they're happy and they're having a great time because they have their imaginations. Like, and our kids with, you know, closets filled with toys, toys falling out of the closets, you know, get bored and move to the next and get bored and move to the next. And then they're all, and we're all like that. If you think about how we are out here, There's nothing to watch on TV. We literally have unlimited access to pretty much everything that's ever been produced ever. And we're like, there's nothing to watch.

47:56Right? Like you turn on the TV and you flip through some previews and you flip through the things that you started. You don't feel like finishing. You have no memory for anything you want to see in that moment. And you literally just, I go through, I look at Hulu, I look at Disney, I look at Netflix, I look at HBO, I look at Apple and I turn it off, I go, freaking nothing. That's all I do. I think it's a paradox of choice, which is if we had less, I mean, don't you remember when we had three networks? Or I mean, I'm too old, young for that. But I remember just when cable was like we had 13 channels, you know.

48:33And I remember, do you remember the buttons with the, you know. Yes, the long thing. The long thing. And I remember I had my fingers on five channels that I could go like this. Like you're playing piano. Like playing the piano. And I could scroll between the channels. but we found stuff to watch. Yeah. And it wasn't whenever we wanted to watch it. It was when it was on now. I remember when ESPN showed nothing but bowling and you were kind of like, I'm kind of down with bowling. I didn't know I liked to watch that. Who knew that poker was so fun to watch? I'm telling you that... Poker is so fun to watch.

49:03Do you play poker? I'm not a... I'd like to do a deep dive. I'm not a card game guy. I'm just not... Not even Rummy? Romeo? Rummy Cube? Rummy Cube. Rami Cubus, come on. Sure. You know what it's like for me is like, there's like, and I love, you know, I love, I'm like super active and competitive. There's something about those, like I can't, I try to every few years, I'm like, you know what? I'm going to play, I'm going to play Jyn Rami. I'm going to, we're all going to play cards today. And I'm like, let's play Texas Hold 'em. And then within three hands, I'm like, I'm done. Bored. I'm done with that.

49:41But I'm also the guy who can walk through a casino every day of my life and never, ever have an inkling to play any of that. Yeah, I'm the same. Because they're not real stakes. They're fake stakes. Say more about that. That's just what I'm thinking. Well, you can lose money, but you can't lose face. Ooh. Ooh. Because the stakes you like... I want to play with my reputation. Yeah. Your stakes are, like, real. Like, losing money... I mean, they're stakes, but... Not if you just play$100. You're not gambling your kid's college education away. Right. You're not gambling the mortgage money. That doesn't sound fun to me.

50:25But that's just losing. That's not stakes. Right. You're talking about like, I'm going to do something that can completely screw up my whole career. Okay, game on. I'm an established actor. I'm world famous. I haven't auditioned in 10 years. And Aaron Sorkin wants me to audition. Okay. What if I don't get the part? That's kind of humiliating. Me, I won't get the part. Could happen. Game on. A lot of people that wanted that part said no to the audition for fear of not getting it because the humiliation of not getting it, the fear of the humiliation of not getting it was worse than not getting it.

51:00And how it presents to them is, I shouldn't have to do that. I shouldn't have to do that. But it's really fear. It's not, the arrogance is actually fear. That's so interesting. Right? Yeah, it makes sense though, when you think about it. So you like to be on the edge of the diving board. literally I was the little kid that would climb up to the highest diving board literally would I mean I literally would do it I fully understand the Rob Lowe do you understand the fact that I just said that and you actually were the kid that climbed up to the top of the diving board remember the gnarly when we used to have those ones yes it wasn't even a board it was just a platform there were like the two that were like low oh I remember and then there's the one in the middle that's way up you really should change your name to Rob High Rob High isn't it the irony Maybe that was it.

51:44Maybe it is. You've been railing against my own last name. I'll show you. Exactly. I'll go high. Exactly. Rob high. Yeah. That all makes sense. We've solved it. We've solved it. Is there anything we've forgotten that we should talk about? It's up to you. We save it for you. We're going to your issue. Yeah. We're doing a twofer. This is a twofer. So if you... That's why Rob's borrowing our set. So if you've liked this, there's more. Just wait. Just wait till he gets his... He kind of had his claws on me during this. What the hell's in store for me over on your podcast now? Well, you can... Yeah, you can take over.

52:29Maybe I'll really just rip you. I'm getting thumbs up from the crew here. Oh, they want that? Yeah. They're super excited. Okay, so come over to, okay, what are we calling it? A bit of optimism. What's yours called? Literally. I like how we showed up in each other's podcast and actually don't know what the other person's podcast is called. It's Rob Lowe's podcast. Isn't that what it is? It's Rob Lowe's podcast. I mean, let's get real. Let's be honest. I can call it whatever I want. It's Rob Lowe's podcast. I mean, is it literally or is it literally? Well, that's just the thing, isn't it? It's Rob Lowe's podcast.

53:04So you pronounce it the way Rob Lowe. Like boredom. What if, or is it boredom? Boredom? No, you pronounce boredom very... There's a heavy D in there. Boredom. Boredom. Boredom. It's like the Netflix logo. Yeah, you say boredom. Maybe that's what the Netflix logo is saying. You say boredom. You say boredom. I think the Netflix logo is telling you there's a very good chance if you watch this thing, you're going to be boredom. Boredom. Yeah. I have a more sanguine way of saying boredom. Yours is much more sanguine. boredom boredom well this has not been boring I don't think there's been any boredom no no boredom they can turn on Netflix Ted Sarandas who's he's such a good friend and Ted we're just having fun with you we love the whatever that are you pitching a show boredom yeah always no I'll get I'll get like I heard he was Simon you guys were great yeah exactly exactly

54:12That was fun. There's more to come, right? This is a two-parter. So if you want to hear more, I'm now going to go onto Simon's podcast a bit of optimism. And I'm going to rip him up, I decided. I'm not going to let him pry me apart like a nut. It's not going to happen on my watch. So let's go over there. Thank you. I'll see you all next week. Right here on Literally.

55:07Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time on Literally.